#instantbird log on 09 17 2014

All times are UTC.

00:00:03 * nhnt11 read the logs
00:00:05 <Alexander84> nhnt11: hello, sir!
00:00:42 <nhnt11> Alexander84: Most of us on this channel like the look of Instantbird more than HexChat :)
00:00:54 <nhnt11> What is it about Instantbird that doesn't please your eyes?
00:00:55 <Alexander84> nhnt11: Tastes differ, no doubt :)
00:02:18 <Alexander84> nhnt11: Actually UI comment was aside security issue discussion, never mind
00:02:31 <nhnt11> Btw, you seem to be annoyed that we don't know certain details about Instantbird by heart
00:02:42 <Alexander84> nhnt11: That's true, indeed
00:02:44 <clokep> Alexander84: Yes, but it has piqued out interest. So can you give some details about what *specifically* you like omre about HexChat's UI?
00:03:05 <Alexander84> clokep: Could you compare them side by side?
00:03:37 <clokep> I don't understand the question, you mean can I open the two images?  Yes, I looked a tboth.
00:03:50 <nhnt11> Alexander84: You made some comparisons, like "what color are your mother's eyes" and "size of your footwear" Please keep in mind that the details you are requesting are not such obvious ones to us
00:04:22 <nhnt11> Instantbird is written using the Mozilla platform, and inherits a lot of the code that Firefox uses
00:04:32 <nhnt11> So we don't /have/ to bother with many of the details
00:05:12 <clokep> nhnt11: I just wrote some GROSS promises code: 
00:05:21 <Alexander84> clokep: Instantbird UI for IRC to narrow the topic, right? IRC had a long march for 20+ years, there are expectations like sorting ops first, then users, not alphabetically, for example 
00:05:33 <nhnt11> Alexander84: clokep wrote the IRC protocol implementation for Instantbird. I'm sure he would be able to give you fast, accurate answers to any questions you have on IRC
00:05:41 <clokep> nhnt11: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/939173
00:05:42 <nhnt11> But certainly not on supported ciphers
00:05:45 <nhnt11> Please be patient :)
00:06:03 * nhnt11 looks at the pastebin
00:06:11 <Alexander84> nhnt11: My initial question was about supported ciphers for XMPP.
00:06:41 <clokep> Alexander84: Personally I find putting ops first very confusing. You're taking your opinion to be an assumption that everyone wants.
00:07:00 <clokep> It's always tough to design UIs for various people. Everyone wants different things.
00:07:03 <Alexander84> clokep: It's called a tradition.
00:07:05 <nhnt11> Alexander84: Well, Instantbird uses libpurple for its XMPP, so you might want to ask the good folks who developed libpurple
00:07:27 <Alexander84> nhnt11: Thank you, that makes sense
00:07:43 <clokep> nhnt11: Except for GTalk / Facebook, those us our own javaScript code.
00:07:48 <nhnt11> Right
00:07:49 <clokep> And the ciphers are handled by NSS no matter what.
00:08:18 * Mook_as tries to figure out the screenshots - so, the IB tested seems to be lacking a, err, GCM AES256 cipher?
00:08:48 <Alexander84> Mook_as: Will you marry me? :)
00:09:00 <clokep> Pidgin can use either NSS or GNU TLS, at the moment. Although it sounds like that's going to change.
00:09:05 <Mook_as> No thanks, I don't like marrying people over IRC.
00:09:08 * clokep mumbles . . .
00:10:12 <clokep> Alexander84: I think tradition is the wrong word, but I understand your point. I do not agree with it, however, I don't like to think that IRC should be kept the same way that it has been for the past 30 years, it can be so much better by taking into account expectations of more modern users and the capabilities of more modern clients.
00:10:23 <nhnt11> Alexander84: You might have just seen that clokep mentioned NSS. Here's some documentation you may want to read: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Projects/NSS
00:10:29 <clokep> Our philosophy is to ensure that the client does what you want and expect it to do, not what someone decided it should do 30 years ago.
00:12:21 <EionRobb> like ranking people by importance? :)
00:12:41 <Alexander84> clokep: Some decisions are timeless. Like wheel, you know. Circle is the perfect shape for millenniums. But as I said, it's your project, inherit as you feel.
00:12:55 <nhnt11> Alexander84: Btw, did you know Instantbird supports message themes?
00:13:11 <Alexander84> nhnt11: Skins, right? :)
00:13:35 <Mook_as> Sorting people by status can be useful at times (to look for an op to kick people, for example); however, sometimes you want to sort by nick too (to start a PM, for example)
00:13:50 <nhnt11> Alexander84: https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/browse/type:1/cat:6
00:14:01 <nhnt11> It's possible you may find a theme you like there (since you liked HexChat's UI more)
00:14:11 <Alexander84> Mook_as: ops are 1-10, rest is people, sorted alphabetically
00:14:24 <Alexander84> *users
00:14:54 <Mook_as> .... I have no idea what that means.
00:14:57 <clokep> Alexander84: I don't think you can compare this to a wheel, that comparision does not make sense.
00:15:07 <nhnt11> clokep: Sorry, I opened your pastebin and forgot about it. Did you want me to look at something in specific?
00:15:08 <clokep> I must respectively disagree though. I find alphabetical sorting to be more useful.
00:15:14 <clokep> This has been asked for before though.
00:15:17 <Alexander84> Mook_as: if you want to PM somebody, but not ops, there are already sorted below ops.
00:15:23 <Alexander84> *they are
00:15:25 <clokep> And I wish there was a good way to be able to switch the sorting, but we've never thought of one.
00:15:33 <clokep> nhnt11: Just the ridiculousness of the formatting.
00:15:36 <nhnt11> The only comment I have is return early on line 32 if aResult is false, but that's more a nit.
00:15:47 <Mook_as> Sure, but if I were to, say, PM cl*kep here, I wouldn't try to remember if he's an op
00:15:55 <Mook_as> clokep: fwiw, CZ uses a context menu, IIRC
00:16:18 <clokep> In fact I'm not always an op, depending on the nick I'm using.
00:16:32 * nhnt11 shrugs, formatting looks fine (I'm used to seeing stuff like `)})},` though)
00:16:59 <Mook_as> <(^^<) <(^^)> (>^^)> ?
00:17:03 <clokep> nhnt11: The ; on a single line by itself doesn't look gross? :P
00:17:20 <nhnt11> Oh haha
00:17:22 <nhnt11> Missed that.
00:17:25 <Alexander84> clokep: question one should ask is why it was made that way. again you try to "reverse engineer" that decision, instead of talking or even reading RFC like docs of that time.
00:17:45 <clokep> Alexander84: I pretty much know the IRC RFCs by heart, they don't specify anything about UI.
00:18:01 <Alexander84> clokep: you like mac user firstly run windows and do not understand why close button not on the left.
00:18:14 <nhnt11> Alexander84: Please do not stereotype Mac users
00:18:23 <clokep> I run Windows, not Mac. But flo-retina, nhnt11 and all the other devs run on Mac.
00:18:48 <Alexander84> nhnt11: exaggeration to illustrate how it looks
00:19:05 <nhnt11> The position of the close button is fairly trivial, I could rant for ages about the drawbacks of Linux/Windows.
00:19:31 <Alexander84> clokep: knowlegdebase will come with time. like case when there are 300+ users and you need to speak with officials, go scrolling for one :)
00:20:29 <nhnt11> Alexander84: I think we can all get along better if you stop saying "you" (i.e. keep things impersonal)
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00:21:02 <Alexander84> nhnt11: Don't substitute you by your name, think of somebody else.
00:22:05 <Alexander84> "when one needs to speaks" like this
00:22:21 <nhnt11> You were clearly addressing clokep directly there, and comparing his incompetence to that of a technologically challenged user encountering a new OS.
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00:22:35 <nhnt11> his supposed* incompetence
00:22:58 <clokep> Alexander84: Regardless, you've pointed out a single thing you see that you like better in HexChat, are there other issues you see?
00:23:18 <clokep> Did someone make an add-on to order by status anyway?
00:23:27 <clokep> Or maybe that was for the buddy list...
00:23:34 <nhnt11> clokep: I think you wrote that for the buddy list ;)
00:23:35 <Alexander84> nhnt11: It's perception, suggestive perception. You point at letters on the screen, feel something about them and push meanings. Question more. 
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00:24:55 <nhnt11> Alexander84: I understand, I wanted to show you that strong use of words can be perceived to be insulting, which is counterproductive for everyone. Hence why I asked you to please stop using the word 'you' :)
00:25:51 <Alexander84> nhnt11: oh... ppl, you're so sensitive. you again, damn))
00:26:19 <EionRobb> that's a pretty subtle nuance of english that "you" is 'strong'
00:26:27 <EionRobb> chillax, bros
00:26:37 * nhnt11 is chillin'
00:27:07 <nhnt11> Good night!
00:27:45 <Alexander84> clokep: You're a good man. It's just software you develop is not well-documented and there are UI things open to debate. Let's not fight between us.
00:27:58 <Alexander84> ^__^
00:28:21 <Alexander84> nhnt11: good night, sir 
00:30:22 <clokep> Alexander84: I don't understand what you want documented. The ciphers? Does *anyone* do that?
00:30:46 <Alexander84> Actually there were and are issues with Hexchat too. And its develovers must be feeling the same about me. However we're more constructive there and something is already done. For example, earlier version of Hexchat didn't underline URLs and it was weird. Together we fixed it  :)
00:31:00 <Alexander84> clokep: Sure they do. Let me find examples.
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00:42:44 <Alexander84> clokep: Usualy they put it to Wiki chapter named "Protocol questions" or simply "Security".  Jitsi, multi-protocol client, incl. XMPP comm, goes even deeper and describes specifies of how VoIP connection over XMPP is encrypted https://jitsi.org/Documentation/ZrtpFAQ
00:43:09 <Alexander84> Mozilla has few articles on securing connections https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security:Renegotiation
00:44:27 <Alexander84> Various sites collecting "PRISM-break" software are used to state clearly what security features are included https://prism-break.org/en/protocols/otr/ 
00:47:07 <clokep> I don't think any of those links are related the the SSL ciphers used. :-\
00:47:10 * clokep has to go do things.
00:47:48 <Alexander84> There is a resouce dedicated to testing how secure XMPP server is, it gives mark from A to F and many details. It helps to determite how secure remote part is, but then you need approriate XMPP client.
00:47:58 <Alexander84> https://xmpp.net/index.php
00:48:17 <Alexander84> For example, I use https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=jappix.com&type=client
00:52:40 <Alexander84> If you're concerned about security there are set of options expected in client besides looking for offshore reliable non-logging XMPP server. That is to say confidence that sofware does not use outdated SSL libraries (hello heartbleed etc) and ciphers both for encrption and digest (hello broken md5 etc), that it will reject any encrypted connection and never send plain password etc.
00:54:54 <Alexander84> Being said, I repeat "if you're concerned about security". Because some XMPP clients promise "we will connect it to any XMPP relay no matter how old it is".
00:55:37 <Alexander84> *reject any non-encrypted
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00:59:55 <Alexander84> There is a great QA thread http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/1634/which-instant-messaging-services-use-or-allow-secure-protocols-and-what-do-thos
01:05:25 <Alexander84> Oh, server is located in Arizona, US... :)
01:09:01 <clokep> conrete is, yes.
01:09:27 <clokep> I think sand is in Europe and gravel in Asia?
01:12:29 <Alexander84> Initially I connected via irc.mozilla.org/6697 and it must be redirected me to US server, damn
01:14:08 <clokep> You can specific individual servers instead of the round robin if you want.
01:14:53 <Alexander84> True. Should look into docs about.
01:15:07 <Alexander84> Did it for freenode, and here i'm newbie
01:18:28 <Alexander84> gravel.mozilla.org : Amsterdam, Netherlands
01:18:44 <Alexander84> sand.mozilla.org : Santa Clara, California, USA
01:21:58 <Alexander84> However this info could be outdated
01:22:17 <Alexander84> Picked it from here http://searchirc.com/servers/Mozilla
01:22:51 <Alexander84> Tried connecting to gravel -> it redirected me back to concrete
01:22:53 <clokep> I think that's right.
01:23:03 * clokep shrugs.
01:23:40 <Alexander84> sand. doesn't even work
01:24:10 <Alexander84> Trapped in Arizona, right...
01:24:24 <Alexander84> clokep: where are you from? :)
01:24:26 <clokep> Here isn't the place to complain about Mozilla's IRC servers.
01:28:54 <Alexander84> clokep: where are you from? :)
01:29:29 <clokep> That's not relevent.
01:29:37 <Alexander84> oh
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01:55:42 <Alexander84> Sweet dreams, clokep, don't be angry with me :)
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03:20:19 <instant-buildbot> build #1162 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Failure [4failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/1162
03:42:11 <instant-buildbot> build #1519 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [4failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/1519
03:43:18 <instant-buildbot> build #2352 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [3build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/2352
04:34:47 <instant-buildbot> build #57 of linux64-nightly-default is complete: Failure [4failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux64-nightly-default/builds/57
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05:43:10 topic changed by concrete.mozilla.org to "Ask about Instantbird (http://instantbird.com) here!|Current version is Instantbird 1.5! :) |News: http://blog.instantbird.org/ |Nightlies: http://nightly.instantbird.im/ (for testing only) |IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/ |Pastebin: http://pastebin.instantbird.org/ | Bugs: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org"
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07:50:45 <flo-retina> congrats for staying nice! ;)
07:51:29 <flo-retina> both linux failures are the usual intermittent
07:51:33 <flo-retina> only Windows is really busted
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08:28:04 <cakcy> Hello! :) Is there a limit to the size of the password of Account properties? Is there a way to exceed that limit?
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08:39:23 <flo-retina> cakcy: I don't know. I've never heard of someone hitting a limit there.
08:40:03 <cakcy> Maybe I'm being stupid ... I'm trying various options to connect to a Bouncer and I can't make it so...
08:41:27 <cakcy> The message I receive from the Bouncer is that I need to use  /quote PASS <username>:<password> so I'm trying various options :)
08:41:51 <cakcy> one of them being username:password (where I hit the limit) :-]
08:42:05 <cakcy> oops username : password
08:42:15 <flo-retina> cakcy: there's a limit to the length a single IRC message can have
08:42:28 <flo-retina> but your password isn't 100+ characters long, is it? :)
08:42:32 <cakcy> no no
08:43:12 <flo-retina> I think a specific preference needs to be set from about:config to force sending PASS
08:43:25 <flo-retina> by default we send the password using more modern/secure mechanisms
08:43:46 <cakcy> Is the string sent on connect in this format?  /server server.servername.com:1337 Username:Password ?
08:44:02 <cakcy> o_o
08:44:06 <flo-retina> I don't think so
08:44:33 <flo-retina> ok, you need to set the password in a pref named serverPassword
08:44:41 <flo-retina> and you need to create that preference yourself from about:config
08:44:55 <cakcy> Ah... great thanks... I'll try that :)
08:45:01 <cakcy> Thank you very much :)
08:45:19 <flo-retina> no problem
08:45:27 <flo-retina> don't hesitate to ask for more help if you get stuck
08:45:41 * flo-retina thinks we really need to figure out a better solution to avoid people having to tinker with bouncers
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08:45:55 <cakcy> :D I don't know if I should bother you or the bouncer people :)
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09:31:40 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo-retina flo-retina 
09:33:35 <flo-retina> It seems like if we set layout.css.filters.enabled to true, we might replace the SVG filter in Bubbles used for context bubbles with just filter: grayscale(40%);
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10:02:36 <EionRobb> that's pretty cool to see filter support in gecko at last :)
10:03:43 <EionRobb> what do you think the reasoning is behind making it only enable-able with the 'layout.css.filters.enabled' setting?
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10:05:02 <flo-retina> EionRobb: you may want to read https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platform/ujWvBvtugGY
10:09:11 <EionRobb> ok, but why the setting?
10:10:16 <EionRobb> why not the usual way of the -moz prefix instead?
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10:20:48 <clokep> flo-retina, cakcy: That's fixed in nightlies.
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14:05:47 <aleth> flo-retina: re http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/140916#m295 - no idea. If it seems sane and useful I'll show it to Yoric and see if there is a wider need for that kind of thing...
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14:29:54 <aleth> clokep_work: In your pastebin from this morning, you probably don't need the executeSoon any more.
14:32:15 <aleth> Maybe the formatting would be nicer if the #ifdef could be replaced by a JS if in this case? not sure if something like this would work there http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/im/content/conversation.xml#542
14:37:16 <aleth> You could probably save yourself the "if (aResult)" by rejecting the promise when !aResult in Core.init, then the success handler in then() won't be called in that case.
14:37:49 <clokep_work> Maybe.
14:38:45 <aleth> Those might all be prematurely optimizing comments, but fwiw ;)
14:39:04 <clokep_work> I didn't look at it too long.
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18:44:14 <Gnubo> Hi
18:44:26 <Gnubo> Does Instantbird have an OTR addon?
18:48:48 <Gnubo> I don't know if there's anyone here
18:49:53 <Gnubo> Anyway,  I read that Pidgin saves passwords in plain text.  Instantbird is not Pidgin, I know.   But since you piggyback off the libpurple libraries, I wanted to ask about how passwords I saved.  
18:50:07 <Gnubo> In this day and age, one can't help but be a little cautious.
18:50:15 <arlolra> Gnubo: the OTR extension is in development https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=954310
18:50:17 <instantbot> Bug 954310 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add support for OTR and encrypted chats.
18:50:46 <Gnubo> Ah...thanks Arlolra.
18:51:24 <arlolra> libpurple is used to add some extra protocol support
18:51:37 <arlolra> most are written in javascript
18:51:42 <Gnubo> I see.  
18:52:20 <Gnubo> I love Instantbird, so I'm always rooting that you make this client as awesome as possible. 
18:52:58 <arlolra> you can check preferences > privacy > passwords
18:53:20 <arlolra> to configure a master password
18:53:35 <Gnubo> How do I know if passwords are encrypted?  I just realized something...
18:54:07 <Gnubo> Since this chat client is based on Mozilla, it wouldn't be too difficult to port a legit password manager would it?
18:54:29 <Gnubo> Lastpass or Keypass?
18:55:13 <Gnubo> I'm not a coder so I can only dream...
18:55:39 <Gnubo> But I'm full of ideas...at least.
18:57:08 <Gnubo> I know...why would they be needed?  For all I know the built in Instantbird password manager is good enough.
18:57:49 <Gnubo> I guess I'm a little paranoid.
18:58:01 <arlolra> it's the same password manager as firefox
18:58:33 <Gnubo> Hmmm...
18:59:31 <Gnubo> I really don't know whether that's good news or not...
18:59:49 <Gnubo> But it's something.
19:00:26 <Gnubo> But anyway, some of the innovations you guys and gals are doing are awesome.  
19:00:39 <Gnubo> I look forward to the future releases.   
19:00:55 <arlolra> it means that the passwords are stored encrypted on your drive
19:01:45 <arlolra> but unless you use a master password, someone with access to your machine can still launch Instantbird and see them
19:02:12 <Gnubo> Oh...If that's the case,  that makes me feel better.  But yeah,  that's common sense.  
19:02:38 <Gnubo> You shouldn't just leave your accounts exposed...
19:05:21 <Gnubo> Oh! I heard about a new protocol.  It's called the telegram messenger.  Maybe it's something that can be added to Instantbird in the future as another option...through an addon or something.
19:05:51 <Gnubo> Here's their site as a reference.  https://www.telegram.org/
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19:09:53 <Gnubo> Anyway, I always brag about Instantbird.  And I hope it gains more notoriety soon.   Take care all.   Thank you so much for everything you all are doing.  :d
19:09:56 <Gnubo> :D
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