#instantbird log on 09 16 2014

All times are UTC.

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00:01:17 * clokep wonders if the ES6 let changes will affect us.
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03:22:35 <Mook> Hmm, is certificate-based auth for IRC supported? (as in, https://freenode.net/certfp/ )
03:22:53 <Mook> It did prompt me for the client cert, but I can't tell if it's actually using that
03:23:21 <Mook> it looks like it's doing SASL plain...
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03:42:15 <instant-buildbot> build #1518 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [4failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/1518
03:51:19 <instant-buildbot> build #1161 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [3build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/1161
03:56:03 <instant-buildbot> build #2348 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [3build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/2348
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05:28:30 <instant-buildbot> build #56 of linux64-nightly-default is complete: Success [3build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux64-nightly-default/builds/56
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07:59:59 <instantbot> florian@queze.net changed the Resolution on bug 1067496 from --- to FIXED.
08:00:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1067496 nor, --, 1.6, florian, RESO FIXED, Tweet context menus broken (prplIMessage.getActions throws) since landing of bug 983347
08:00:39 <instantbot> florian@queze.net changed the Resolution on bug 1067493 from --- to FIXED.
08:00:40 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1067493 maj, --, 1.6, florian, RESO FIXED, chat messages aren't colored since the landing of bug 983347
08:02:07 <flo-retina> clokep: the windows bustage looks related to the confvars change :(
08:02:43 * flo-retina wants a colorful IRC today, and retrigered the Mac nightly.
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09:41:57 <instant-buildbot> build #2350 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Failure [4failed shell_5]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/2350
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10:35:01 <clokep> flo-retina: Is it trying to link sipe directly into purplexpcom? Is that what we normally do?
10:36:39 <flo-retina> I'm updating my build locally to fix the test_logger.js bustage
10:37:14 <clokep> Are tests not running on our buildbot?
10:37:28 <flo-retina> they failed on my retriggered Mac nightly
10:37:32 <flo-retina> the problem is trivial
10:37:47 <flo-retina> we have |let path = ...| twice in the same scope
10:39:13 <clokep> Oh! So not due to your patches, it's due to those let changes.
10:39:53 <flo-retina> clokep: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/937951 is all we need. r? :)
10:40:21 <clokep> flo-retina: r+
10:40:31 * flo-retina decides a=bustage-fix ;)
10:41:36 <flo-retina> Is "Fix test_logger.js bustage due to duplicated 'let', r=clokep over IRC, a=bustage-fix on CLOSED TREE." a reasonable commit message?
10:41:42 * flo-retina feels slightly bad for not having a bug number :-S
10:42:11 <clokep> flo-retina: One second.
10:42:24 <clokep> flo-retina: bug 1001090
10:42:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1001090 nor, --, mozilla35, shu, RESO FIXED, Implement ES6 "temporal dead zone" for let and const
10:47:49 <flo-retina> "Bug 1001090 - Fix test_logger.js bustage due to duplicated 'let', r=clokep over IRC, a=bustage-fix on CLOSED TREE." ?
10:48:40 <clokep> flo-retina: Sure, maybe put "Port" in front of it.
10:49:25 <flo-retina> "Remove duplicated 'let' in test_logger.js to fix bustage from bug 1001090, r=clokep over IRC, a=bustage-fix on CLOSED TREE." seems slightly less awkward :)
10:49:29 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1001090 nor, --, mozilla35, shu, RESO FIXED, Implement ES6 "temporal dead zone" for let and const
10:49:37 * flo-retina feels bad for not attempting to fix the rest of c-c :-]
10:49:37 <clokep> Yes.
10:49:39 <clokep> I like it.
10:49:50 <flo-retina> but I want my nightly with colored messages! ;)
10:52:55 <flo-retina> "you included the magic words.  Hope you had permission!" :-]
10:54:09 <clokep> Looks like I'll need to pull. :)
10:56:16 <flo-retina> I'm glad we landed the regression fix before the tree got closed again :)
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12:20:54 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Do you have thoughts about enabling JS-Yahoo by default for IB?
12:27:06 <flo-retina> we should just go for it
12:27:25 <flo-retina> and disable it before releasing if serious bugs are filed and we don't have time to fix them before the release
12:30:32 <clokep_work> OK!
12:30:37 <clokep_work> Once the tree is back open...
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12:36:33 <instant-buildbot> build #2351 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [3build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/2351
12:36:38 <flo-retina> ah!
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12:38:23 <flo-retina> the hidden-windows-after-update-restart bug is definitely not fixed :(
12:40:55 <clokep_work> I don't think I've seen that. :-S
12:40:59 <clokep_work> Ah I can update now and have colors? :P
12:42:16 <flo-retina> you can! :)
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12:44:44 <flo-retina> clokep_work: looks like SIPE gets statically linked indeed
12:46:43 <clokep_work> BAH!
12:46:53 <clokep_work> Integrity can't be verified.
12:47:19 <flo-retina> bad luck
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14:06:41 <qheaden> Hello everyone
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16:22:21 <cakcy> Hello! :) Does latest build have a problem with the colors of users in IRC channels or is it me?
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16:37:48 <arlolra> cakcy: yeah, it's fixed in https://github.com/mozilla/releases-comm-central/commit/14461db35846a4131123a3ff3713f946b71d52cc
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16:44:06 <cakcy> arlolra: Thank you very much! :)
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16:44:38 <arlolra> don't thank me ... I broke it :(
16:45:03 <cakcy> arlolra: Thank you again! :D
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17:35:08 <clokep_work> qheaden: Thanks for reviewing those.
17:35:19 <qheaden> clokep_work: No problem!
17:35:20 <clokep_work> Mook_as: It is not supported, I think.
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17:37:41 <clokep_work> qheaden: I'll land those changes once the tree is green again.
17:37:49 <flo-retina> if we need to send some custom IRC stuff for it, it's probably not supported
17:37:50 <Mook_as> clokep_work: which? ssl certs?
17:37:57 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Yes.
17:38:00 <flo-retina> but if the SLL auth happens during the SSL negotiation, it may just work
17:38:10 <clokep_work> It may, yeah.
17:38:10 <Mook_as> ah. yeah, that seems reasonable
17:38:26 <Mook_as> but yes, the SSL auth _should_ happen during SSL negotiation
17:38:40 <Mook_as> except that it's all confused now and doesn't show me the cert prompt anymore :(
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19:13:18 <clokep_work> aleth: Hi.
19:13:34 <aleth> Hello :)
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19:15:13 <clokep_work> I had some questions for you.
19:16:15 <aleth> Somewhere in the logs?
19:16:24 <clokep_work> aleth: bug 1030059 so...do you have ideas of how to solve that?
19:16:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1030059 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Passwords gone in newest nightly
19:16:30 <clokep_work> I've banged my head against it a few times and keep failing.
19:16:44 <aleth> What goes wrong?
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19:18:17 <clokep_work> aleth: What do you mean?
19:18:30 <clokep_work> You suggested I need to handle the callers to make sure they can be async.
19:18:36 <clokep_work> I see no way to make the command line handler async.
19:20:45 <aleth> Right.
19:20:59 <aleth> But does the core really get initialized from the command line handler?
19:21:19 <aleth> I doubt it somehow.
19:21:21 <clokep_work> I'm pretty sure.
19:21:23 <clokep_work> flo-retina: ^
19:21:54 <aleth> If it does then you probably have to make core.init() return a promise so you can chain on it.
19:22:43 <flo-retina> it does, and that's broken ;)
19:23:09 <aleth> It sounds to me like fixing this bug involves tidying up the startup sequnce then :-/
19:23:57 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Can you expand on "that"?
19:24:11 <flo-retina> initializing the core synchronously from command line handlers
19:24:16 <aleth> clokep_work: I mean something along the lines of e.g. in the command line handler, replacing http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/im/components/ibCommandLineHandler.js#29 with Core.init.then(function onsuccess(), function onfail())...
19:24:43 <aleth> At least that's one possible approach
19:24:48 <clokep_work> aleth: I understand what you're saying but I don't think that will work at all.
19:24:56 <clokep_work> I think the command line handlers HAVE to be sync.
19:25:09 <aleth> The handler would still be sync.
19:25:29 <clokep_work> I'm explaining poorly. :-\
19:25:38 <clokep_work> It would *NOT* be because it has to touch the prevent default property.
19:25:45 <clokep_work> Which could happen at any point.
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19:25:55 <clokep_work> But the command line handlers for the system are all run in series alphabetically.
19:25:59 <clokep_work> At least, that's my understanding.
19:27:05 <aleth> But the bits it needs to know about probaby don't involve the password service initialization
19:27:49 <aleth> i.e. can you split core.init() in two, core.start() and core.initaccounts() or something?
19:28:15 <clokep_work> aleth: I don't think so.
19:29:36 <aleth> What does the preventDefault property do apart from stop the buddylist from appearing somehow?
19:29:40 <clokep_work> aleth: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/im/modules/ibCore.jsm#41 returns false in a bunch of places.
19:29:46 <clokep_work> SOme of which are after the yield, some before.
19:29:52 <flo-retina> "If the core failed to init, don't show the buddy list" seems to be the only thing we couldn't do anymore
19:30:37 <aleth> It seems the solution might be to make the buddy list initilalizer a bit more resilient to incomplete initialization
19:30:38 <clokep_work> Maybe.
19:30:55 <flo-retina> aleth: the buddy list should wait for an initialization promise
19:31:01 <aleth> flo-retina: right
19:31:11 <flo-retina> and should maybe support displaying an error message
19:32:39 <aleth> Or send a notification in a then() of the password service init promise, and have the blist respond to that
19:33:05 <flo-retina> shouldn't the blist be optional?
19:33:11 <flo-retina> eg. on mac it could be closed
19:33:41 <aleth> flo-retina: that's what http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/im/components/ibCommandLineHandler.js#33 is about I think
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19:37:12 <aleth> clokep_work: It sounds like one of those bugs that grow and grow as you fix them ;)
19:37:43 <clokep_work> aleth: Sounds like something I'm not motivated to fix. :(
19:37:57 <aleth> If only it wasn't a blocker ;)
19:38:10 <flo-retina> aleth: I've got a Firefox bug exactly like that
19:38:20 <flo-retina> bug 973001 if you are curious ;)
19:38:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=973001 nor, P1, mozilla34, florian, ASSI, getUserMedia doesn't work in e10s window (no permission prompt appears)
19:38:58 <aleth> clokep_work: I can take a look if you like, not sure when I'll get to it though.
19:39:13 <flo-retina> what's so difficult about this?
19:39:42 <aleth> Probably not terribly difficult once one has disentangled what depends on what in order.
19:40:18 <aleth> But that may take some thinking...
19:40:35 <flo-retina> it seems straight forward to me
19:40:47 <flo-retina> so either I'm missing something, or maybe I should give it a try
19:41:18 <aleth> I'm just assuming if it was straightforward clokep_work would have already fixed it by now ;)
19:41:42 <clokep_work> I hadn't considered just NOT returning success / failure from the init before.
19:41:54 <flo-retina> aleth: I meant straight forward _after this discussion_
19:42:35 <flo-retina> "just assuming if it was straightforward <nick of experienced developer> would have already fixed it by now" tends to be a very bad assumption. At least when the nick is mine :)
19:42:50 <flo-retina> if I failed to fix something, I'll tend to assume in the future that it's a difficult issue.
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19:43:07 <flo-retina> but sometimes after a while or some discussions the context has changed so much that the thing turns out to be a trivial fix
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19:44:05 <aleth> True.
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19:54:23 <aleth> Oh, I forgot to upload that WIP from the weekend
19:57:16 <flo-retina> mconley: so what's the status for the summit with protravel? I'm surprised we haven't received any invitations yet
19:57:42 <mconley> flo-retina: ProTravel has laid out a budget that is within our means, and I'm now connecting them with the money. That's the current state.
19:58:01 <mconley> flo-retina: we're at the point where I need clytn to step in, and I've sent her mail
19:58:04 <mconley> so blocked on that.
19:58:50 <flo-retina> do you have expectations about when people should receive invitations?
19:58:59 <flo-retina> thanks for the update btw! :)
20:00:39 <mconley> flo-retina: no estimate at this time
20:00:54 <mconley> flo-retina: ProTravel and I are now blocked on basically hooking up the accounting
20:01:03 <mconley> so, uh
20:01:03 <mconley> soon
20:01:05 <mconley> :)
20:08:07 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Did you pint out that email about NSS to kai?
20:08:10 <clokep_work> kaie
20:08:33 <flo-retina> no. Why would I have?
20:12:41 <instantbot> New Chat Core - General bug 1068234 filed by aleth@instantbird.org.
20:12:43 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1068234 nor, --, ---, aleth, ASSI, Add a queue module to be able to handle multiple async queues without jank
20:15:40 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Cause he just replied. :P
20:18:56 <aleth> clokep_work: Does that preventDefault = true abort the whole startup, so you end up back at the command line? Or what is the default action of the command line handler?
20:21:09 <clokep_work> aleth: NO idea.
20:21:50 <flo-retina> aleth: the default action that this cancels is showing the xul window whose URI is defined in a pref (the blist for us
20:23:06 <flo-retina> this code: http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/components/nsDefaultCLH.js#106
20:23:50 <flo-retina> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/components/nsDefaultCLH.js#82 is what uses the preventDefault value
20:25:05 <aleth> Thanks
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20:31:21 <flo-retina> aleth: do you want this Queue.jsm to go in toolkit?
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20:52:37 <Alexander84> Hello world :)
20:52:45 <Alexander84> Came here from http://www.instantbird.com/about.html
20:53:08 <flo-retina> Hello
20:53:26 <Alexander84> Being concerned with security used in latest Instantbird
20:54:24 <Alexander84> It's very poorly documented. For example, I know of SASL support because of looking through changelogs.
20:55:32 <Alexander84> Question is what security schemes are supported and what its order?
20:56:50 <Alexander84> Maybe I digged not enough, but there's neither preferences of that sort nor plugin that enables it.
20:58:58 <clokep_work> Alexander84: First you'll need to tell us what protocol you're talking about.
20:59:07 <Alexander84> XMPP
21:01:06 <clokep_work> It depends whether you're using Google Talk or a pure XMPP account, most likely.
21:01:10 <clokep_work> But flo-retina would know better than me.
21:02:41 <flo-retina> I don't understand the question either :)
21:02:49 <Alexander84> Agghhr..
21:02:54 <flo-retina> if you are asking about a specific feature we can answer if it's supported or not
21:03:05 <Alexander84> Open this https://blog.thijsalkema.de/blog/2013/09/02/the-state-of-tls-on-xmpp-3/
21:03:31 <Alexander84> Article is written a year ago, but clearly indicates what I'm asking here.
21:03:55 <flo-retina> ah, the way SSL is handled
21:04:17 <flo-retina> Alexander84: I don't know the details, but it's the same code that's used for Firefox, so it must be done pretty reasonably :)
21:04:37 <Alexander84> To cut it short: for example, best encryption Jisti could deliver is ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-SHA. I'm not satistied with it. But other clients doing worser job. List lacks mention of Instabird. And here I am, asking.
21:05:21 <flo-retina> Alexander84: if you can get a list for Firefox, it will be the same list for Instantbird
21:06:07 <Alexander84> flo-retina: no, I can get the list. it requires to install network protocol capture software, etc. I'm here because it's supposed to be a development channel where seniors know the specifics by heart.
21:06:24 <Alexander84> flo-retina: maybe I should ask somebody else?
21:06:42 <flo-retina> yes, the specifics is "we never dealt with this directly because we inherit this code directly from Firefox."
21:07:31 <Alexander84> great. ppl develop software that is used for secure chats and knows nothing about its security schemes :)
21:07:54 <clokep_work> Alexander84: I see tons of hits for checking what SSL ciphers are used in Firefox, you can also choose specifically in about:config.
21:08:06 <clokep_work> Alexander84: Also, I take your comments to be pretty belittling, please be nice.
21:10:33 <flo-retina> Alexander84: I think chat client developers pretending to know everything about how SSL works would be scarier. Being a cryptographic expert and a good UI developer/designer at the same time seems difficult to imagine.
21:12:25 <Alexander84> flo-retina: it's not about cryptography expertise, it's purely about bullet list of supported protocols. 
21:13:44 <flo-retina> a bullet list one doesn't understand is worthless
21:14:24 <Alexander84> flo-retina: modern comm software looks like this https://telegram.org/ - cute site that intoduces features and have links for technical info - exactly what i'm looking for. in case of Telegram page looks so https://core.telegram.org/mtproto
21:15:37 <Alexander84> flo-retina: by the way, Firefox got that pages about async dns resolving and SPDY support as examples, so it's obvious to expect same lavel od details for chat software. 
21:16:16 <flo-retina> you are welcome to create a wiki page with the documentation you think is missing :)
21:17:16 <Alexander84> flo-retina: indeed :) yet to put it on wiki, it should be available from developers in any form
21:18:03 <flo-retina> maybe we can count you as a developer then? You said you know how to build that list from network protocol capture software :)
21:18:35 <Alexander84> flo-retina: huh, it's reverse engineering of a sort. 
21:19:04 <Alexander84> flo-retina: don't you think it's weird to get answers by debugging software?
21:19:17 <flo-retina> Alexander84: getting answers by reading code is what developers do all the time
21:19:29 <flo-retina> nobody knows all the code for large software projects
21:21:57 <clokep_work> Alexander84: Go to https://cc.dcsec.uni-hannover.de/ with Firefox and voila there you go.
21:22:04 <clokep_work> You could even go there w/ Instantbird if you'd like, most likely.
21:22:28 <Alexander84> flo-retina: I read carefully what you tell, yet am still amazed that you don't catch the drift: idea of secure communication vs plain text irc chat like this is to provide end-user with clear features s/he could use. if it's not done clearly, than it's done in form only, hence misleading.
21:23:12 <Mook_as> Wouldn't you want something closer to OTR if you want actual secure communication?
21:23:13 <flo-retina> btw, this is what I see in about:config by following the directions clokep gave: http://i.imgur.com/n4cpfuo.png
21:23:24 <Alexander84> Mook_as: OTR is another layers, yes.
21:24:04 <Alexander84> flo-retina: nice screencapture software you use, I like the shadow :)
21:24:08 <flo-retina> Alexander84: I wouldn't claim "secure communication". Ever. Because that would be a lie. I can't certify that your computer doesn't have a keylogger.
21:24:21 <flo-retina> Alexander84: the shadow is the default behavior on Mac.
21:24:51 <-- clokep_work has quit (Ping timeout)
21:26:17 <flo-retina> also, it's not because you are using IRC over plain text that everybody is. irc.mozilla.org supports SSL if you want to use it (I do).
21:28:59 <Alexander84> clokep_work is left, damn
21:29:10 <flo-retina> Alexander84: he reads the logs.
21:29:14 <Alexander84> flo-retina: he offered to open url with Instabird
21:29:23 <Alexander84> i'm confused how to do that
21:29:56 <flo-retina> I find it surprising that you care about the cipher suites, but keep misspelling the name of the software ;)
21:30:24 <Alexander84> maybe you know?
21:30:32 <sherief> maybe you should wait for Tor's IM bundle ;)
21:30:55 <Alexander84> sherief: you don't take it seriously, but makes fun of it, it's ok, but not my point
21:31:19 <Mook_as> If you install DOM Inspector, you can type things into that thing's url bar
21:31:29 <flo-retina> Alexander84: Tools -> Error Console
21:31:30 <Alexander84> Mook_as: right, let's try
21:31:37 <flo-retina> Alexander84: then paste openDialog("https://cc.dcsec.uni-hannover.de/") in the "Code:" box and press enter
21:32:04 <Alexander84> flo-retina: thanks, working
21:32:30 <flo-retina> Alexander84: "you don't take it seriously, but makes fun of it" is a pretty aggressive comment.
21:32:55 <Alexander84> flo-retina: but he laughs at me, doesn't he? 
21:32:58 <flo-retina> Alexander84: even if you don't take him seriously, sherief is actually working toward bringing OTR to Instantbird ;).
21:33:20 <flo-retina> or Instantbird to the Tor IM bundle.
21:33:41 <flo-retina> Alexander84: seems unlikely.
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21:34:44 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep_work 
21:35:56 <Alexander84> flo-retina: let me put it this way. i work as voice actor. it means not only get up early, come to noiseless envr and say something into mic with the voice you got from nature. there are nuances about sound even from schoold physics course you'd better know to achieve goals. and you don't offer your sound engineer to raise volume digitally or do another trick simply if you can't speak today because of illness. that's 
21:35:56 <Alexander84> serious approach, straigh to the point.
21:36:42 <clokep_work> I don't think your clients split that message properly.
21:36:46 <clokep_work> At least I can't follow it.
21:36:54 <Alexander84> clokep_work: hexchat latest
21:37:05 <Alexander84> clokep_work: where was it cut?
21:37:05 * flo-retina suggests Instantbird ;)
21:37:18 <EionRobb> Alexander84: http://i.imgur.com/bTM9qg0.png
21:37:20 <flo-retina> Alexander84: http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today#m370
21:37:47 <Alexander84> and you don't offer your sound engineer to raise volume digitally or do another trick simply if you can't speak today because of illness. that's 
21:37:47 <Alexander84> 01:35:48 <Alexander84> serious approach, straigh to the point.
21:38:43 <Alexander84> flo-retina: thanks God we found tricky way to see what security schemes are supported with nightly Instantbird
21:39:23 <flo-retina> I really don't see your point :-S.
21:40:09 <clokep_work> I don't understand your analogy. :-S
21:40:22 <clokep_work> Alexander84: I wouldn't really call it "tricky", but glad you got the information you wanted.
21:42:08 <Alexander84> clokep_work: you must know your field and projects by hearts. that't the point. not joking, making excuses, pretext, etc. there is a field of XMPP clients, right, and most of them document security features supported. 
21:43:55 <Alexander84> flo-retina: Hexchat looks nice :) http://i.imgur.com/NoRB2na.png 
21:44:12 <flo-retina> Alexander84: it took us a while to understand that for you "security features" means "cipher suites". For me it could plenty of other things. Eg. OTR, the way account passwords are stored on the disk, etc...
21:45:32 <Alexander84> flo-retina: well, I provided link for articled and asked directly like this "01:04:29 <Alexander84> To cut it short: for example, best encryption Jisti could deliver is ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-SHA. I'm not satistied with it. But other clients doing worser job. List lacks mention of Instabird. And here I am, asking."
21:46:16 <flo-retina> you are the first one asking this question. ever.
21:46:16 <Alexander84> Sorry for typos, ii's 2 am here and English is not my native, nor spellcheck is enabled.
21:46:33 <flo-retina> Instantbird supports spell checking ;)
21:46:49 <flo-retina> It's not 2am yet here (only close to midnight) but English isn't my native language either
21:47:07 <Alexander84> flo-retina: good
21:48:04 <clokep_work> Hmm....according to https://www.openhub.net/p/instantbird, Instantbird is ~100k lines of code. I owuldn't expect anyone to know that by heart.
21:48:29 <Alexander84> clokep_work: Do you remember color of your mother eyes?
21:48:34 <clokep_work> I don't think we're making excuses or pretexts, in fact we're being very honest with you about what we know and don't. I think this is something to strive for.
21:48:44 <clokep_work> Keeping a conversation light is also something good (IMO).
21:48:47 <flo-retina> clokep_work: I would assume that's without the Mozilla platform, which is where the answer was for this question ;).
21:48:47 <Alexander84> clokep_work: Or size of your footwear?
21:49:02 <clokep_work> Alexander84: I see no relationship to that to what we're discussing.
21:49:09 <Alexander84> clokep_work: that's the point
21:49:21 <clokep_work> Clearly I'm missing it.
21:50:43 <Alexander84> clokep_work: Are you aware why XMPP was invented? Why centralized communication dissapointed us? Why ppl become talking of security risks? 
21:51:05 <Alexander84> clokep_work: Cipher suites and its order are crucial to XMPP clients.
21:52:01 <Alexander84> clokep_work: Crucial features should be known by heart.
21:52:01 <flo-retina> Alexander84: doesn't matter much which cipher suites you have on the clients if you can't be sure the server to server communication is correctly encrypted too.
21:52:29 <Alexander84> flo-retina: check https://xmpp.net/result.php?domain=swissjabber.ch&type=client for example
21:53:36 <flo-retina> Alexander84: that link seems to be able client to server connections; not server to server.
21:53:37 <Alexander84> clokep_work: it's like I ask "why protocols could Firefox open?" and you say "i don't think it's important, there're 100k of code", right anwwer is "http, https, ftp" etc
21:53:45 <Alexander84> *what protocols
21:53:59 <flo-retina> Alexander84: no, the answer is "it depends"
21:54:17 <Alexander84> flo-retina: a philosopher :)
21:54:55 <flo-retina> Alexander84: if you want to see a list of protocols Firefox won't reject, I would suggest opening about:config there and typing "protocol" in the filter field ;)
21:56:15 <clokep_work> Shouldn't XMPP authors care about XMPP and let people with more security smarts implement security protocols? Someone had a quote once about never implementing crypto yourself.
21:56:33 <Alexander84> in the end nobody want to harm or be rude. just listen to end-users and try to understard them. if user wants to know more about security, don't tell him he's a jerk or it's not important, but ask youself maybe security is something we haven't cover in detail.
21:56:58 <clokep_work> Alexander84: Where did we say it's a jerk or not important?
21:57:05 <clokep_work> We answered your questions frankly and fairly quickly.
21:57:15 <clokep_work> We didn't know the answer and I researched a way for you to figure it out.
21:57:37 <clokep_work> s/it's/you're/
21:57:45 <flo-retina> which is even better than a documentation page, because you don't have to take our word for it, you can see for yourself ;)
21:57:56 <EionRobb> flo-retina: if you change the &type= in the url to be server, it'll show you s2s too
21:59:03 <flo-retina> EionRobb: that still won't prove much, right? Servers could behave differently with each other based on the IP or whatever
21:59:25 <Mook_as> Actually, if you want the list of protocols, you want to enumerate the keys of Components.classes that start with @mozilla.org/network/protocol;1?name=
21:59:37 <-- Even has quit (Input/output error)
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21:59:40 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 
21:59:41 * clokep_work wants for the JS snippet.
21:59:42 <Alexander84> Mook_as: great, another way to reverse engineer :))
21:59:45 <flo-retina> Mook_as: nah. That would list protocols that aren't exposed
21:59:48 <clokep_work> waits, not wants.
22:00:01 * clokep_work can't see straight anymore.
22:00:49 <Alexander84> Let me summerize.
22:01:10 <Alexander84> Q: Instabird developers, what cipher suites are supported?
22:01:21 <Alexander84> A: Go Tools-Error console
22:01:36 <Alexander84> insert  openDialog("https://cc.dcsec.uni-hannover.de/") and execute
22:01:43 <-- clokep_work has quit (Ping timeout)
22:02:20 <flo-retina> looks like you still can't spell "Instantbird" correctly :-P
22:02:23 <Alexander84> get this http://i.imgur.com/KwmEjh2.png
22:02:56 <Alexander84> and then go to Options, Advanced, Config editor
22:03:20 <Alexander84> insert ssl and turn off (boolean: false) that ciphers you don't want to use 
22:03:25 <Alexander84> period
22:04:28 <Alexander84> It's like quest here :)
22:04:30 <flo-retina> so what would actually be interesting is to know which ciphers you decided to turn off and why (which threat are you protecting yourself against by disabling these)
22:04:46 <flo-retina> ie. teach us something (as it looks like you know a lot about ciphers; much more than we do)
22:05:29 <Alexander84> flo-retina: all your need is alove as song says :)
22:05:32 <Alexander84> *you
22:05:35 <Alexander84> *love
22:05:54 <flo-retina> I probably need sleep too :-P
22:06:23 <Alexander84> And if you care about details there is link to security article above. Actually it's written in three parts.
22:07:09 <flo-retina> that article won't tell me anything about why you care about this specifically; which is the relevant information we need if we want to make Instantbird better for you.
22:07:55 <Alexander84> flo-retina: question is why we need security at all.
22:08:17 <flo-retina> why _you_ need what you call "security".
22:08:20 <Alexander84> flo-retina: either use modern and avoid obsolete schemes, or don't bother at all.
22:08:31 <flo-retina> we probably have different definitions of security.
22:08:36 <-- sonny has quit (Ping timeout)
22:11:21 <flo-retina> anyway, good night.
22:13:01 <Alexander84> flo-retina: you want a scenario where tuning security would make a benefit. in the end, you could ask why bother with PGP if you're average user with no valuable secrets so let your imfomation be kept in plain text remotely or even your account be hacked.
22:13:17 * mpmc grabs popcorn..
22:14:03 <Alexander84> why wipe HDD before replacing, etc
22:16:51 <Alexander84> mpmc: you'd bette visit https://securityinabox.org/chapter-7, there's a scenario when secure comm is a must :)
22:18:25 * Fallen is now known as Fallen|away
22:20:19 <Alexander84> flo-retina: i'm from Russia, as you may know there's a civil war going on on Ukraine, in former part of USSR, so it's close and there're many journos working and friends living now. some of them are detained or closely observed, however they could still communicate
22:20:29 <Alexander84> flo-retina: but they need to do that in most secure way they can
22:21:18 <mpmc> Alexander84: I'm not sure why you pulled me into this discussion, you can encrypt as much as you like but there will always be a way in.. flo has already gone to bed btw, keep pinging him might wake him up and I'm sure he'll want his beauty sleep xD
22:23:20 <Alexander84> mpmc: because I see some crucial features of XMPP niche software neither known here nor taken seriously. "yes, connection is secure, they say, but we know nothing about, let's draw UI instaed"
22:24:16 <Alexander84> mpmc: in the end, flo-retina asked me why I cared about security so much.
22:25:27 <mpmc> If you really want to be secure unplug your modem and phone, and move to the middle of nowhere..
22:27:01 <mpmc> I'm not being serious with that last comment btw :p
22:30:41 <Alexander84> mpmc: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2014/02/01/anti-solutionism/
22:44:48 --> sonny has joined #instantbird
22:45:14 <Alexander84> Hmm.. let's try to connect here with Instabird
22:45:25 <-- Alexander84 has quit (Quit: --. --- --- -.. -... -.-- . .-.-.-)
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22:51:18 <Alexander84> Needs polishing no doubt: http://i.imgur.com/BW6F7Z3.png
22:52:53 <Alexander84> Comparing to the same window of Hexchat: http://i.imgur.com/NoRB2na.png
22:57:08 <-- Alexander84 has quit (Quit: Alexander84)
22:58:48 <clokep> Alexander84: You still never answered what changes you made...
22:59:24 <clokep> Also I would strongly say that Hexchat needs polishing to be remotely usable. ;)
23:17:59 --> Alexander84 has joined #instantbird
23:20:50 <mpmc> Btw guys, I can't double click a user (in the chat window) to enter their user into the input anymore :(
23:33:15 <Alexander84> mpmc: They shall see & decide in the morning, I guess
23:33:33 <mpmc> :)
23:33:38 <mpmc> I'm off - Night..
23:33:56 <nhnt11> mpmc: It works for me
23:34:03 <nhnt11> (but I think I'm one nightly behind)
23:34:25 --> nhnt12 has joined #instantbird
23:34:42 <-- mpmc has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.6a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com)
23:35:50 <-- nhnt11 has quit (Ping timeout)
23:35:56 * nhnt12 is now known as nhnt11
23:37:09 <clokep> mpmc: Try tomorrow's nightly?
23:37:13 <clokep> Florian fixed a couple of things today.
23:37:23 <nhnt11> That's a known regression?
23:37:37 <clokep> nhnt11: The colors is a known regression + Twitter actions.
23:37:40 <-- Bollebib has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.5 -- http://www.instantbird.com)
23:37:43 <clokep> I think double clicking is related to actions?
23:37:52 * nhnt11 is confused, he doesn't see anything broken
23:37:52 <clokep> Alexander84: Yous till never answered the single question flo-retina asked of you. :-S
23:38:02 <clokep> nhnt11What nightly are you?
23:38:03 <clokep> Bah...
23:38:07 <nhnt11> Oh wow, it appears I'm on a nightly from the 13th
23:38:08 <nhnt11> odd
23:38:14 * nhnt11 thought he updated
23:38:29 * nhnt11 cancels his update
23:38:38 <Alexander84> clokep: For example?
23:40:27 <EionRobb> clokep: you mean "(09:17:55) flo-retina: maybe we can count you as a developer then?" ? :P
23:41:43 <Alexander84> EionRobb: obviously not as i gave details about my biography that has nothing common with in-deep development 
23:42:08 <Alexander84> EionRobb: btw, feeling weird as before coming here, i investigated for a secure xmpp servers, also was talking on irc. it is here kinda misunderstanding happened
23:42:45 <EionRobb> Alexander84: yeah, I think the question was "which ciphers you decided to turn off and why ?"
23:43:03 <Alexander84> EionRobb: and it was answered as well
23:43:12 <Alexander84> EionRobb: story about civil war etc
23:44:27 <clokep> Alexander84: No.
23:44:49 <clokep> flo-retina wants to know specifically WHAT ciphers you turned off (this part of the question was totally ignored) and WHY they are now deemed insecure.
23:45:29 <Alexander84> clokep: actually i gave link about what ciphers and why to turn off a few minutes after initial question, there's a security research article in three parts
23:49:00 * clokep sighs.
23:49:01 <clokep> OK.
23:49:48 <Alexander84> Never mind, it's ok, Instantbird could be a hobby project
23:50:02 <Alexander84> Actually I stumbled upon it here http://alternativeto.net/SearchResult.aspx?search=xmpp&platform=windows&license=free
23:50:23 <-- sonny has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.5 -- http://www.instantbird.com)
23:51:15 <clokep> Alexander84: Please stop making insulting comments.
23:51:45 <clokep> And regardless, it sounds like Instantbird does exactly what you want -- it lets you choose which ciphers to use.
23:51:55 <Alexander84> clokep: It's your perception of letters on the screen. I talk of possibilities, you take it directly.
23:52:13 <clokep> Alexander84: Then consider the perception of your words before you say things.
23:52:53 * clokep goes to look at promises and probably hates the next hour of his life.
23:53:54 <Alexander84> clokep: I do. However there are undocumented deviations. Like your way to become excited if somebody values this piece of sofware not as much as you do. Are you a democrat after all?
23:54:43 <clokep> WTF.
23:55:15 <Alexander84> clokep: Freedom of speech, no? C'mmon. There are two opinion that could co-exist.
23:55:28 <clokep> It's kind of rude to come ask for help and then insult something that someone has put a lot of work into.
23:55:40 <clokep> "undocumented deviations", I have no idea what that means.
23:55:43 <Alexander84> clokep: I speak of things, not about ppl.
23:55:50 <EionRobb> I haven't seen anything insulting yet, a few mistranslations perhaps but nothing insulting
23:56:17 <Alexander84> clokep: It means usually ppl do not react that way. 
23:56:24 <Alexander84> clokep: You're too agressive.
23:56:31 <Alexander84> clokep: Sleep on it.
23:57:07 <Alexander84> EionRobb: That's why I provide links, yes. English is not my native :(
23:59:13 <clokep> Alexander84: Btw saying that "Instantbird needs polishing" without offering more details is not constructive feedback.
23:59:32 <Alexander84> clokep: There was a second link
23:59:43 <Alexander84> clokep: leading to same window of Hexchat representation
23:59:58 <nhnt11> Hello