#instantbird log on 03 01 2013

All times are UTC.

00:00:05 <flo-retina> which didn't help me at all
00:00:33 <flo-retina> I didn't even update the patch
00:00:48 <mconley> flo-retina: the case is a bit different here - just a single function
00:01:10 * clokep dislikes the name of that function. ;)
00:01:19 <mconley> :)
00:01:31 <flo-retina> mconley: and I suspect there will likely be a reason to think it's not actually needed, because jetpack has an equivalent and "better" alternative
00:01:39 <flo-retina> clokep: yeah, I'm really not a fan of that name
00:01:40 <mconley> this module isn't for jetpack
00:02:13 <flo-retina> clokep: there used to be a TODO, replace this with an 'HTTP' object with several methods (get, post, ...) at the top of that file
00:02:40 <flo-retina> I think it got removed because bienvenu disliked us having a dozen or so TODO comments in the chat/ code that was being merged into c-c :)
00:07:47 <clokep> Ah....bienvenu.
00:08:53 <mconley> I miss bienvenu. :/
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00:13:42 <flo-retina> mconley: you are not the only one ;)
00:17:22 <flo-retina> Good night / happy reviews :)
00:17:30 <mconley> flo-retina: 'night!
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00:23:32 <clokep> Goodnight flo!
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00:44:00 <instant-buildbot> build #382 of linux-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-onCommit/builds/382
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01:31:57 <instant-buildbot> build #368 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/368
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02:11:15 * clokep wants an Instantbird t-shirt. :P
02:25:38 <clokep> Does anyone in here speak Dutch btw?
02:26:39 <clokep> Apparently Tonnes is our localizer...did you see the latest message on the support group? I'm fairly certain it's in Dutch...
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03:40:47 <instant-buildbot> build #794 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/794
04:15:33 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2249 on bug 1828.
04:15:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1828 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Update to Mozilla 19
04:16:04 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2250 on bug 1828.
04:16:34 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2251 on bug 1828.
04:16:46 <clokep> Filling up flo-retina's review queue. ;)
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04:31:49 <instant-buildbot> build #791 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/791
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05:44:28 <instant-buildbot> build #885 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/885
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09:49:05 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1885 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
09:49:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1885 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Clicking the unread counters should take the user to the first unread or first directed message
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11:00:32 <aleth> Mic: There is no FF add-on for MathJax that I know of. It wouldn't make much sense imho, MJ is usually included by websites (that's what it was designed for).
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11:02:00 <aleth> Sorry...
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11:09:04 <aleth> clokep: Yes, that's Dutch. Maybe Tonnes can help
11:09:56 <flo-retina> clokep: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/150745 http://i4.minus.com/iymUpi39y96EV.png thoughts?
11:10:07 <flo-retina> (this is coming from the discussion in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=845818)
11:16:23 <clokep> flo-retina: That looks OK to me.
11:17:20 <aleth> This is another case where a BMO bug discussion is really duplicating things already on BIO
11:17:36 <aleth> :(
11:17:37 <flo-retina> aleth: do we already have a bio bug for that?
11:17:53 <aleth> For improving the new IRC account experience? Sure
11:18:23 <aleth> (Just in case you need more examples to show the bugzilla team to argue for a merge ;) )
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11:21:29 <flo-retina> aleth: I don't think I need reasons to argue more.
11:21:47 <flo-retina> aleth: I would welcome a but where I can just drop that pastebined patch to request review though :)
11:25:26 <flo-retina> *bug
11:25:38 <clokep> flo-retina: Although I could probably bikeshed about whether it should say nick or nickname.
11:25:59 <flo-retina> clokep: I couldn't decide if I prefered nick or nickname
11:26:22 <clokep> flo-retina: I'm not sure https://dev.twitter.com/blog/changes-to-sign-in-with-twitter affects us, but maybe you should read it/
11:26:35 <flo-retina> more oauth fun?
11:26:50 <aleth> Now I can't find it, but I know it exists.... :-/
11:27:02 <clokep> iTeleport is currently rolling out a new version.
11:27:09 <clokep> With that issue fixed (supposedly).
11:27:12 <flo-retina> is it better or worse? :)
11:28:18 <aleth> flo-retina: bug 1426 was what I was thinking of, though it doesn't include a "nick" hint.
11:28:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1426 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Give user a choice of networks (with preconfigured options) for IRC
11:29:04 <aleth> Ah no, it is mentioned in the description.
11:29:09 <flo-retina> clokep: I don't understand the meaning of that twitter blog post
11:29:38 <flo-retina> aleth: it looks like that patch alone wouldn't be enough to mark that bug as fixed
11:31:05 <clokep> flo-retina: Neither did I, that's why I figured it was too oauthy for me.
11:31:15 <aleth> flo-retina: Yup, that's why I didn't find it at first. The discussion leading up to the patch sounded similar.
11:32:00 <flo-retina> aleth: well, the discussion leading to the patch was "confused user is confused"
11:32:36 <aleth> flo-retina: Yes ;) 
11:33:04 <aleth> clokep: "Sign in with twitter" sounds more like it's for websites, not for apps?
11:33:22 <aleth> I'm also confused by that post.
11:34:03 <aleth> It's both: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/sign-twitter
11:34:19 <aleth> Doesn't sound related to IB 
11:36:35 <flo-retina> is that competing with Persona/Facebook Connect/Google <whatever>/.. ? :)
11:38:03 <clokep> This moz.build stuff seems...like it's going to be messy for us.
11:38:46 <flo-retina> more or less messy than the c-c build system being completely changed?
11:39:10 <flo-retina> It sounds to me like another month during which most of my contributions to ib will be boring...
11:39:59 <clokep> I'mhoping jcranmer can get building under m-c to work though.
11:40:05 <clokep> Then we shouldn't need to port configure.in changes, etc.
11:42:11 <clokep> Speaking of whih...I got the Moz 19 build to work. :)
11:43:14 <flo-retina> clokep: do you think that irc username hint patch needs bwinton's ui-r?
11:43:23 <aleth> :)
11:43:40 <flo-retina> clokep: I sort of noticed that in my review queue :)
11:44:15 <clokep> I'm just happy I have a working tree I can work on other things in! :)
11:44:21 <clokep> flo-retina: It probably should...
11:44:21 <flo-retina> :)
11:45:25 <flo-retina> clokep: isn't it faster to not request ui-r, check it in, and ask for forgiveness later if someone is unhappy? :)
11:46:01 * flo-retina thinks he should be able to ui-r+ chat changes himself
11:46:05 <clokep> flo-retina: I was going to say...he's not going ot care, if anything he'll bikeshed about nick/nickname
11:46:21 <flo-retina> clokep: yeah, he certainly won't care
11:46:26 <clokep> Then let's just do it.
11:46:29 <flo-retina> clokep: and it will just waste time for everybody
11:50:07 <clokep> :)
11:56:13 <flo-retina> what's the current version number on comm-aurora?
11:56:39 <clokep> 21
11:56:50 <flo-retina> thanks
11:56:55 <clokep> (I'm on Daily == 22)
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12:55:04 <clokep_work> That's TWO patches by flo in TWO days! :-D
13:04:06 <aleth> I should update my nightly then :D
13:05:45 <clokep_work> It doesn't have anything that will affect you (most likely).
13:06:01 <clokep_work> Unprefixed stuff from Mic and automatically adding # from flo.
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13:51:49 * clokep_work finally cleaned out his inbox!
13:52:05 <clokep_work> Have I mentioned how dissatisfying I find getsatisfaction?
13:54:43 <aleth> it starts with the name...
13:56:55 <flo-retina> clokep_work: aleth may like the # patch, it reduces the amount of typing required, which is also something he pursued with tab completion ;)
14:00:55 <aleth> time for the "and now you can /join instantbird" blogpost ;)
14:04:24 * aleth often finds himself trying to /join channels from xmpp tabs :-/
14:10:00 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Maybe.
14:10:03 <clokep_work> I won't be doing that. ;)
14:10:10 * clokep_work goes to make ! channel just to be annoying. :P
14:10:29 <aleth>  /join!!
14:12:16 <aleth> hmm, not actually a valid name, that
14:14:33 <flo-retina> clokep_work: so should /join !instantbird work?
14:16:01 <clokep_work> flo-retina: No, moznet doesn't support it.
14:16:27 <flo-retina> clokep_work: there's an isupport message giving us the list of supported prefixes, right? :)
14:17:12 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Yes. I don't know all servers off the top of my head though. ;)
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14:23:58 <aleth> huh, the "rename *stripe" bug actually landed
14:24:31 <clokep_work> Yeah, so # is the only one supported on moznet.
14:24:44 <clokep_work> And I'm not on Freenode at work.
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14:36:23 <flo-retina> aleth: don't you like that change?
14:36:47 <flo-retina> aleth: the new structure (especially with the shared folder) seems good enough that maybe we could want to adopt it
14:37:26 <flo-retina> aleth: I didn't want to adopt all the code duplication between platforms and the confusing names that were there before; that's why we have ifdefs in so many css files... ;)
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15:09:15 <aleth> flo-retina: I also think it's an improvement, I was just surprised it didn't die in bikeshedding.
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15:58:11 <clokep_work> Between that and the build restructuring...we'll have a lot of reorganization for Mozilla 21.
15:58:16 <clokep_work> 22, rather.
16:00:14 <flo-retina> yeah, it all seems very fun -_-
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16:10:22 <clokep_work> Strange idea of fun you have. ;)
16:11:33 <flo-retina> ;)
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17:04:41 <Tonnes> clokep?work± is that Dutch message you referred to on https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/mozilla.support.instantbird/3UGlBPSXsW8 ?
17:04:53 <Tonnes> clokep_work ^
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17:49:43 <clokep_work> Tonnes: Yes.
17:52:08 <Tonnes> clokep_work: he says "My question is how do I install the instantbird on linux.
17:52:18 <Tonnes>  I cannot get it done. 
17:52:29 <Tonnes> Wat do I need to click on etc.
17:52:40 <Tonnes> I would like to read a message abouto thui."
17:52:54 <Tonnes> (this..)
17:53:10 <clokep_work> Tonnes: Any chance you can reply to him? :)
17:53:26 <Tonnes> argh
17:53:38 <Tonnes> I do l10n, no support :)
17:53:51 <Tonnes> but I might make an exception
17:54:09 <clokep_work> Tonnes: If not, I can reply later.
17:54:14 <Tonnes> not on the group though
17:54:24 <clokep_work> Thanks for translating though. :) THat's mostly what Google gave me though, I just never trust those...
17:54:58 <Tonnes> no prob.. isn't there an English answers on this?
17:55:49 <clokep_work> I can reply in English, yes. We might have an FAQ entry on it.
17:55:51 * clokep_work needs to go now though.
17:56:21 <Tonnes> ok, I guess he can get any English reply translated
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18:02:11 <Mic> What's the meaning of ! for channels?
18:09:03 <clokep_work> Mic: I think it's a local channel.
18:10:05 <Mic> ah
18:17:27 <clokep_work> Mic: Something like that at least, it's not abundantly clear in  RFC 2811 what the different ones are.
18:17:53 <clokep_work> It's defined that &, #, + and ! are prefixes thoguh.
18:18:24 <Mic> OK, thanks. I guess that's not really important for me. I was just curious and I hope you didn't waste time to actually look that up :(
18:20:04 <clokep_work> Letting data run. :)
18:25:25 <dew> local channel meaning a channel that only exists on that server right?
18:26:18 <Mic> dew: google results suggest that you're right.
18:45:51 <clokep_work> dew: Yes.
18:46:26 <clokep_work> https://www.alien.net.au/irc/chantypes.html summarizes all of them well.
18:46:34 <clokep_work> ! is NETWORK SAFE, & is local.
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20:49:45 <Mic> This is sad: http://littlebigdetails.com/post/30315005624/gmail-selecting-an-email-in-gmail-and-then-shift
20:50:35 <Mic> This is not a great detail but should be standard. Anything else is just broken :(
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21:21:29 <clokep_work> !Mic I've never found a program that doesn't do that...
21:21:45 * clokep_work wonders if that's supposed to ping everyone except Mic?
21:21:59 <Mic> :D
21:22:33 <Mic> Fun with exclamation marks;)
21:23:06 <Mic> Do you know that you should do really important checks in code like this:   if (!!true)  / if (!!! false)
21:23:46 <clokep_work> What? (o_O)
21:23:49 <Mook_as> well, !!foo actually makes sense in things like JS, sometimes...
21:24:21 <clokep_work> We use that in places...
21:25:11 <Mic> ... and I really don't like it. It's obfuscation imo...
21:26:13 <clokep_work> I don't think we do it often, I can't actually recall anywhere that we do it.
21:28:34 <Mic> Much worse though: if (~someArray.indexOf(item))
21:31:14 <Mook_as> agreed; python's | if not item in someArray | is much more readable
21:32:59 <clokep_work> Mic: ...that's checking if an item is not in an array or not the first element? (o_O)
21:33:19 <clokep_work> Sorry, it's true if an element is the first element only?
21:33:56 <Mook_as> it's true if it's in the array
21:34:04 <Mook_as> since not in the array = -1, and ~-1 = 0
21:34:34 <Mic> Exactly
21:34:38 <clokep_work> Wtf is ~?
21:34:39 <Mook_as> see also: True and False from visual basic, where False is 0 and True is -1 (on account of Not False)
21:34:39 <Mic> bbl
21:34:41 <clokep_work> Is that not !?
21:34:47 <Mook_as> bitwise ont
21:34:51 <Mook_as> err, bitwise not
21:34:51 <clokep_work> Oh.
21:35:07 <clokep_work> (In MATLAB ~ is just "not", I wasn't sure if you switching to a different language or doing something else.)
21:36:18 <Mook_as> yeah, the only language switching was me talking about VB. I don't think that has a boolean not at all.
21:38:26 <clokep_work> VB, those were the days.
21:38:39 <clokep_work> I have a bad-ass Battleship program written in QBASIC. ;)
21:51:25 <Mic> clokep_work: I thought you were too young for QBASIC
21:51:41 <clokep_work> Mic: No. That's what I learned to program on.
21:52:12 <clokep_work> QBASIC / JavaScript, Visual Basic, then C++, Java, MATLAB
21:52:23 <clokep_work> A smattering of Perl was in there somewhere.
21:54:16 <Mic> QBASIC, PowerBasic (it had a compiler, yes!), some Pascal/Delphi/VB later, Javascript and Java later, C/C++ only during university (some OCaml experiments too (omg!))
21:54:25 <Mic> Well, it's JS for me now ;)
21:54:40 <clokep_work> OCaml? Interesting.
21:54:51 <clokep_work> Good thing you didn't go to a Java school though. :)
21:56:08 <Mic> Half of the CS course in university was Java, the other parts for example OCaml (which really rocks for some tasks, like implementing sort algorithms!).
21:56:22 <clokep_work> Is OCaml functional?
21:56:30 * clokep_work just looks it up
21:56:31 <Mic> Yes
21:57:09 <Mic> The pattern matching for parameters is awesome :)
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22:00:23 <clokep_work> Bye! :)
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22:16:09 <flo-retina> yeah, OCaml is nice. Except if you want to actually use it for something useful IIRC.
22:23:44 <Mic> I wouldn't want to write something larger in OCaml but the example implementation that we did for some algorithms were really cool :)
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22:26:28 <Mic> There's a post from 2004 from someone asking if there's something like OcamlXPCOM ... :D
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22:31:34 <flo-retina> Mic: ocaml is really great for short codes of classroom algorithms
22:31:58 <flo-retina> Mic: If I remember correctly it becomes a nightmare when you need to use libraries that aren't shipped with it by default.
22:32:49 * flo-retina has a friend who tried to do a 3D video game with ocaml
22:32:55 <Mic> I never did anything but the "classroom algorithms"-part
22:33:05 <Mic> Why do we show join/leave messages by the way? To indicate that someone joined the conversation at this particular point (to have this information later / in the logs) or as a poor way to display the event of joining (present)?
22:34:41 <flo-retina> Mic: for the join, so that you can see when the person you were waiting for arrives / so that you can greet new comers. For leave messages, so that you can stop replying to someone who is no longer here
22:36:02 <Mic> I rather meant if we actually want to show it in the conversation or rather transiently.
22:36:02 <Mook_as> might be useful to port cz's conference mode (hide join/leave if a channel has more than X users)
22:36:37 <flo-retina> Mook_as: that seems a broken way to address some brokeness ;)
22:36:58 <flo-retina> if the person I was talking to leaves, it's as important in a channel with 1k users as in a channel with 5 users
22:37:01 <Mook_as> yeah, the whole world is permanently broken ;)
22:37:17 <Mic> e.g. a panel appearing above the participant list or conversation content with an icon indicating the event and the name of the participant which fades after a while?
22:37:19 <Mook_as> (I assume it's mainly for #developers or something)
22:37:50 <flo-retina> Mook_as: the issue they are trying to address by that behavior is the noise caused by join/part messages in large channels. But they also remove the signal...
22:37:58 <Mic> ->[ ] flo-retina joined.
22:38:05 <Mic> [ ]-> flo-retina left.
22:38:06 <flo-retina> Mook_as: which makes the noise/signal ratio even worse ;)
22:38:43 <flo-retina> Mic: the timestamp is useful, and it's useful to be able to check if a message was said just before or just after you joined
22:43:57 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout)
22:52:48 <Mic> "Awesome": http://littlebigdetails.com/post/3483274913/osx-hitting-esc-chooses-cancel-hitting
22:59:24 --> clokep has joined #instantbird
22:59:24 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep 
23:02:50 <clokep> Mic: I think a useful thing to do for large channels is to bubble "active people" to the top of the participants list.
23:09:53 <flo-retina> for large but low traffic channels, it could be useful to show a diff of the participant list instead of a list of join/part (ie someone who left and rejoined several times wouldn't be displayed)
23:13:28 <Mic> Good night!
23:13:36 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: No time to waste, let's go!)
23:18:30 <clokep> It's super annoying that some twitter APIs use names and some use IDs...
23:21:23 <clokep> Like...I'm borderline thinking I need to keep two maps: one that is ID -> name and one that's the reverse.
23:34:18 <flo-retina> maybe you just need to cross that border ;)
23:35:04 <flo-retina> clokep: aren't most APIs able to use names or ids interchangeably as parameters, and return both in results? (except the search API that sucks...)
23:43:13 <clokep> flo-retina: Maybe. But they usually only return one or the other? Or we're only storing one or the other.
23:43:40 <flo-retina> not sure of what you mean
23:43:55 <flo-retina> when some JSON we receive include info about users, it includes a lot of info
23:44:05 <flo-retina> including the id, the name, and lots of things we don't use
23:44:48 <clokep> Yes, but we index it by name, I need a way to index by id.
23:44:54 <clokep> It just requires more code. It isn't abig deal.
23:49:34 <flo-retina> and more memory :(
23:51:41 <flo-retina> bah, Emacs isn't able to edit files inside zip files inside zip files :(
23:51:58 * clokep wonders what Order it is to look up things in a JS Set.
23:52:09 <flo-retina> I can edit install.rdf or chrome.manifest inside an add-on's XPI, but not a file inside the jar file inside the xpi :(
23:52:24 <clokep> We should be having jar files anymore!
23:52:40 <flo-retina> clokep: that add-on still has an install.js...
23:52:53 <clokep> flo-retina: Ouch. Which add-on is this? Your Fx one?
23:53:15 <flo-retina> uh, you remember install.js files? :-o
23:53:48 <flo-retina> clokep: it's https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/view-dependencies/ that I'm trying to fix for Gecko 18+
23:55:46 <clokep> I know what they are, I've never used one.
23:56:49 <flo-retina> and I can't even access the code repository, it's hosted on CVS on a server I turned off 4 years ago :-S