#instantbird log on 12 20 2012

All times are UTC.

00:38:57 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2175 on bug 1812.
00:38:59 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1812 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC accounts should timeout when the connection to the server has stalled
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03:25:56 <instant-buildbot> build #717 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/717
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04:21:36 <instant-buildbot> build #719 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/719
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06:39:46 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 2175 on bug 1812.
06:39:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1812 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC accounts should timeout when the connection to the server has stalled
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11:25:21 <clokep> The Windows builder has been offline for two days in a row now.
11:25:37 <clokep> And Linux is still failing. :(
11:30:41 <flo-retina> clokep: nobody fixed linux ;)
11:31:04 <flo-retina> clokep: for offline Windows/Linux builders, the solution is to email Even. (that's what I do when I need to get them back online, so I guess anybody in the team can do it).
11:34:34 <clokep> OK. :) Will do.
11:35:29 <flo-retina> cc me or team@ib.org :)
11:35:36 <flo-retina> (so that we don't duplicate the emails :))
11:38:44 <clokep> Bah that link didn't work automatically. :(
11:38:48 <clokep> I had to "pick" Thunderbird.
11:41:50 <flo-retina> it's not like ib.org would work anyway ;)
11:42:12 <clokep> True. :)
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15:15:16 <clokep_work> Thanks Even.
15:15:18 <clokep_work> Doh...
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17:27:08 <wnayes> I have a couple patches finished for the logger changes discussed yesterday (one with just the refactoring and one attempt at making the writes asynchronous as well)
17:27:41 <wnayes> I looked for a bug about async log writes but didn't find one, not sure if I searched for the right terms though.
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17:40:33 <instantbot> New Core - General bug 1859 filed by wnayes@gmail.com.
17:40:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1859 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Write log messages asynchronously
17:40:48 <flo-retina> :)
17:47:08 <instantbot> wnayes@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2177 on bug 1859.
17:47:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1859 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Write log messages asynchronously
18:04:53 <flo-retina> wnayes: you don't close and reopen the file for each message, do you?
18:06:08 <wnayes> I think the asyncCopy call ends up closing it, as it has to have init() called each time.
18:06:37 <flo-retina> that doesn't feel great :-/
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18:09:28 <wnayes> It was the only solution I ended up finding. I wasn't completely happy either, but I had found that the same technique was used elsewhere, ex: https://github.com/dglol/memchaser/blob/d666ef1a4493ac685fa7050cd57d9708eb23223c/extension/lib/logger.js
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18:52:47 <jthomas> Good day!  We have an internal IRC server with a legit-signed, wildcard SSL Certificate.  Previously a coworker (and Instantbird user) was able to connect to our IRC server, but recently his access has been failing due to "Issuer Certificate is Invalid" errors :(  He's tried adding the cert but still, not working.  Ideas?  Should he roll back?
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18:59:45 <jthomas> ok i tried rolling back (from 1.3 to 1.2) and i still cannot connect
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19:17:49 <clokep_work> jthomas: One second. I'll take a look at your error.
19:19:17 <jthomas> thanks!  i'm trying to find out which version he used before.  our IRC setup hasn't changed
19:19:32 <jthomas> 1.1 cannot connect either
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19:26:56 <clokep_work> jthomas: We switched from libpurple's IRC to our own IRC with 1.1, I think.
19:27:10 <jthomas> library?
19:27:21 <jthomas> so 1.0 may do what I need?
19:27:24 <clokep_work> Ah, no...we switched in 1.2. I lied. :)
19:27:34 <jthomas> ok
19:27:52 <jthomas> 1.1 has a different error message but it isn't working
19:28:10 <clokep_work> How did you import the cert in 1.3?
19:29:09 <jthomas> i'm not sure what my coworker did; I believe in the Options menu somewhere (i've uninstalled these during my tests so it's not installed right now)
19:29:50 <jthomas> it's possible that the SSL is self-signed after all tho -- the person who set it up seems to have lied to me
19:30:12 <jthomas> re-installing now
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19:34:07 <clokep_work> Yeah, in Options > Advanced > Encryption > View Certificates you can import it.
19:34:15 <clokep_work> I'd honestly be a little surprised if it wasn't self-signed.
19:34:31 <clokep_work> If the user was using one of the libpurple based ones, it' spossible they disabled cert checking also. :)
19:34:41 <jthomas> i can look into that, but is that not a valid option ?
19:35:04 <clokep_work> I personally don't recommend checking of certs. It's a good way to be open to MITM attacks.
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19:35:09 <clokep_work> Let me friend the steps for that though...
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19:35:53 <clokep_work> jthomas: https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1100#c3 and comment 5 have the steps for importing and disabling.
19:35:57 <instantbot> Bug 1100 cri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Use Firefox untrusted cert dialog for "SSL Handshake failed" errors
19:36:22 <clokep_work> (Note that disabling will only work in Instantbird 1.1 and below, it only disable cert checking for libpurple based accounts)
19:38:39 <jthomas> thanks for the help, i'll check on that
19:39:07 <clokep_work> No problem. :) Good luck.
19:39:16 <clokep_work> Please let us know if you have any other questions!
19:40:50 <jthomas> one more: will this be resolved for self-signed SSLs or is this expected to remain not allowed in the future?
19:42:24 <clokep_work> It's not that it isn't allowed, we just have implemented the calling of the Mozilla UI that asks you if you want to accept the unsigned certificate or not.
19:42:49 <clokep_work> I'm not sure if that answers your question or not. ;)
19:42:53 <clokep_work> They would never be accepted by default, no.
19:48:30 <jthomas> yeah, a prompt is fine, but 1.4 or 1.5 or something will allow it (and do so more easily) ?
19:49:19 <clokep_work> Hopefully we'll make it easier eventually, I can't promise in a version. :-/
19:49:29 <jthomas> sure
19:49:30 <clokep_work> (Unfortunately it isn't something I run into often, personally...)
19:49:38 <jthomas> understood
19:50:11 <jthomas> but with those instructions, i can connect with v1.1.  Yay!  my employee will be thrilled; this is the only blind-accessible IRC client that he's found
19:50:29 <clokep_work> :)
19:50:51 <clokep_work> There has supposedly been a lot of improvements for screen readers in 1.3...unfortunate if it doesn't connect though. :(
19:50:53 <jthomas> thanks for the assistance and the software!
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20:27:30 <flo-retina> jthomas: you really shouldn't use an old version
20:27:51 <flo-retina> jthomas: try importing the self signed certificate in 1.3 (and don't forget to mark it as trusted after importing it).
20:29:14 <flo-retina> jthomas: and I'm glad Instantbird is accessible to your blind employee! :)
20:30:06 * clokep_work grumbles about people doing crazy things with pointers...
20:32:09 <EionRobb> mouse pointers or memory pointers?
20:32:14 <EionRobb> or laser pointers?
20:35:51 <clokep_work> Memory pointers.
20:49:06 <flo-retina> pfff, macbook has an horrible behavior
20:49:35 <flo-retina> it doesn't take key presses that don't last at least ~half a second (sometimes more)
20:49:41 <EionRobb> "an 'orrible" or "a horrible"
20:50:09 <flo-retina> well, probably orrible as it has a tendency to eat letters ;)
20:50:17 <EionRobb> lol
20:50:19 <EionRobb> touché 
20:51:18 <flo-retina> seems to be working a little bit better now :-|
20:51:24 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 2176 on bug 1859.
20:51:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1859 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Write log messages asynchronously
20:51:41 <flo-retina> I wasn't far from deciding it needed a reboot
20:51:46 <flo-retina> but it has only 10 days of uptime.
20:52:14 <flo-retina> During the past 6 years I've been used to OS X needing a reboot only every 60 or so days.
20:52:42 <EionRobb> here's a semi-related philosophical question: if you hibernate your machine and start it up again, should uptime be reset or should it continue from where it left off after you hibernated
20:53:12 <EionRobb> s/after you/before you/
20:58:11 <flo-retina> EionRobb: seems like an RTFM question. (I suspect it could depend from an OS to another)
20:58:32 <EionRobb> as a dev/user what would you expect though?  what does 'uptime' mean to you?
21:01:50 <flo-retina> clokep_work: could http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mozilla/dom/network/src/TCPSocket.js be useful to simplify socket.jsm?
21:02:27 <flo-retina> EionRobb: it's usually a way to check how long ago was the last time I had to restart the OS.
21:02:49 <flo-retina> or the last time it hard to be restarted (because of a power outage for example)
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21:07:11 <clokep_work> flo-retina: It looks like it could be used intstead of socket.jsm, but I don't think it would simplify anything...
21:07:16 <clokep_work> It looks ver similar in a lot of ways.
21:08:04 <clokep_work> It also looks like it assumes a window is available?
21:09:20 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 2177 on bug 1859.
21:09:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1859 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Write log messages asynchronously
21:09:48 <flo-retina> clokep_work: there's a method called "initWindowless"
21:10:52 <flo-retina> bah :(
21:11:03 <clokep_work> "bah :("?
21:11:23 <clokep_work> Yeah...I find that file to be really confusing. :-S
21:11:42 <clokep_work> (I also find it slightly sad that someone took the time to right this when, I think, it mostly does the same thing our code does...)
21:12:05 <flo-retina> "bah :(" meant "you are right, it needs a window"
21:12:10 <flo-retina> (and my macbook is eating letters again :()
21:14:32 <flo-retina> clokep_work: I'm surprised by the suspend and resume method
21:15:12 <flo-retina> also, it seems they felt the need to do all writes async.
21:15:20 <flo-retina> is our output stream blocking in socket.jsm?
21:15:36 <clokep_work> I don't know.
21:17:10 <flo-retina> clokep_work: I think you will need to know if you ever try to support EionRobb's favorite feature for IRC ;).
21:17:46 <EionRobb> colours?
21:17:57 <EionRobb> bold?
21:18:45 <EionRobb> :P
21:19:25 <flo-retina> EionRobb: I think everybody understood what I meant ;)
21:20:04 <EionRobb> hehehe
21:20:38 <EionRobb> have you seen tonido?  I think it's a great idea for file transfer :)
21:21:15 <EionRobb> watch, as I do a file transfer of crazy cat pictures https://eionrobb.tonidoid.com/app/webshare/share/IMG20121105092259/
21:22:52 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I think it is blocking.
21:23:04 <clokep_work> This might also differ between whether we're sending binary data or string data.
21:23:06 <flo-retina> clokep_work: yeah, I think so too.
21:23:37 <flo-retina> clokep_work: it's the same output stream in both cases, so I don't think it differs
21:24:23 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Ah, yeah...one just wraps it in a binaryoutputstream.
21:26:41 <clokep_work> flo-retina: We might just need to switch to using http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mozilla/netwerk/base/public/nsITransport.idl#34 (unbuffered)?
21:26:55 <clokep_work> Well...we /don't/ pass the OPEN_BLOCKING flag so...
21:29:52 <Mook> you still want to use nsIAsyncInputStream, though
21:31:43 <flo-retina> Mook: we already do async reading, don't we?
21:32:06 <flo-retina> Mook: I think otherwise nothing would work, as the IRC server doesn't send us a continuous stream of data
21:32:20 <Mook> I don't know, I haven't read the code yet ;)
21:32:58 <flo-retina> but you've used Tb for IRC, and it's not constantly frozen ;)
21:34:08 <Mook> no, just whenever my disk is busy ;)
21:34:45 <Mook> yeah, you use a pump, which ends up just doing things on the background (either off-thread or async, depending on the stream)
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21:35:36 * clokep_work found all the socket code really annoying.
21:35:40 <clokep_work> Which is why I abstracted it> :p
21:35:54 <Mook> I think http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/chat/modules/socket.jsm?mark=226#215 ends up being sync, though
21:36:43 <Mook> the inputs are all read on onDataAvailable, so that should be fine.
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21:41:57 <clokep_work> flo-retina: If we need to support async writing, file a bug? :P
21:42:14 <flo-retina> clokep_work: I don't need file transfer ;)
21:42:28 <flo-retina> clokep_work: but I looked into that because we definitely need async log writing
21:42:34 <flo-retina> Mook complained about it the other day
21:42:57 <flo-retina> and it showed in my profiles even though I have a fast SSD here
21:43:36 * clokep_work is confused how they even do async output streams.
21:43:42 <clokep_work> Is that this multiplexStreamCopier thing?
21:47:06 <flo-retina> no
21:47:14 <Mook> ah, no; that output _might_ be async
21:47:22 <flo-retina> Mook: ?
21:47:31 <Mook> of course, if it ends up with not enough buffer, it just silently fails instead.
21:47:35 <flo-retina> Mook: because the socket is non blocking?
21:48:17 <Mook> yep
21:52:10 <instant-buildbot> build #810 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Exception [exception interrupted]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/810
21:53:45 <flo-retina> Mook: so it would still be a problem if sending a lot of data
21:54:41 <Mook> yep. at least you'd get a note in the error console, I guess :p
21:55:16 <flo-retina> you said "silently fails"
21:55:52 <Mook> to the user, yes?
21:56:03 <Mook> I mean, who reads the output of Cu.reportError? :p
21:57:53 <clokep_work> IMO the socket should handle chunking the data automatically, I (as a protocol writer) don't want to deal w/ "low level" networking stuff.
21:59:11 <Mook> yeah, the jsm should buffer for you.
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22:09:00 <flo-retina> Mook: so you think there's something that needs to be fixed in our socket.jsm?
22:11:20 <Mook> yeah, trying to figure out a way to hook things up so they're actually all ordered
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22:12:05 * clokep_work thinks that all we need to do for jthomas's issues is include http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/suite/mailnews/mailTasksOverlay.js#244 in socket.jsm...
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22:12:17 <clokep_work> Do we know of a site that gives an invalid cert that's public? :P
22:14:04 <flo-retina> clokep_work: that depends on having a window :-P
22:14:18 <flo-retina> plus I really don't think we want to popup such a dialog automatically
22:14:50 <flo-retina> there should be a button in the account manager next to the ssl error to open a dialog where it's possible to get details about the cert and add an exception
22:17:40 <flo-retina> clokep_work: the really difficult part about SSL errors is getting the URL that caused the error for libpurple accounts.
22:18:13 <flo-retina> clokep_work: for JS-prpls, we should be able to figure out the URL pretty easily
22:19:57 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I was mostly concerned with JS-prpls for now.
22:20:26 <flo-retina> clokep_work: at the time we started being concerned by this, twitter was the only JS prpl ;)
22:20:43 <flo-retina> clokep_work: now I think it would make sense to only handle js prpls :)
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22:21:58 <clokep_work> :) Maybe!
22:26:49 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Would it be reasonable to put a blocking dialog up initially and deal with a "better" solution later or do you want something prettier to start w/?
22:27:16 <flo-retina> a modal dialog is r-.
22:27:26 <flo-retina> If you like them, you should use Pidgin :-P.
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22:28:34 <flo-retina> I've always made our code silently ignore all attempts from libpurple prpls to throw modal dialogs in front of the user, so I don't see any excuse for js prpls to start doing it ;)
22:28:46 <flo-retina> (although the Twitter OAuth dialog is arguably sucky :()
22:29:43 <EionRobb> how do you deal with popups from libpurple prpls that ask for input?
22:29:55 <flo-retina> btw, if I wanted to start working on a single-window-UI, should that be an add-on, or can it be an option? Who would be interested in working on that (if only for reviews)?
22:30:13 <flo-retina> EionRobb: a message in the error console, so that people can report it to us, and we can fix the code to not to that.
22:30:26 <flo-retina> EionRobb: it's unacceptable behavior for a prpl to do anything related to the UI.
22:30:35 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Send all your reviews to Mook.
22:30:41 <EionRobb> llike 'search for buddy'?
22:30:48 * clokep_work wonders where the _as went...
22:31:00 <flo-retina> clokep_work: it went in vacations
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22:31:38 <flo-retina> EionRobb: the cases that have been typically painful are prpls that request an invitation message when adding a buddy. I think that API has been fixed now though.
22:31:50 <EionRobb> yeah, the new api for that is good
22:31:53 <clokep_work> flo-retina: And QQ's captcha? :P
22:32:00 <EionRobb> oh yeah, and captcha's
22:32:14 <flo-retina> clokep_work: that could likely go in the same dialog as the twitter oauth one
22:32:16 <clokep_work> I don't understand why there isn't just a "request_captcha" API. :(
22:32:31 <flo-retina> (and that should probably go to a conversation tab, rather than a popup dialog)
22:32:48 <Mic> What's the advantage of a single window UI over what we currently have?
22:32:56 <flo-retina> clokep_work: isn't it a request image (which is almost the same thing)
22:33:20 <flo-retina> Mic: easier to move between screens, to hide, to resize
22:33:57 <flo-retina> Mic: after thinking about this a lot, I think our current UI is better for IM if you don't expect to be talking all day long, and a single window UI is better if you expect to have active conversations (like IRC channels you use for work) all day long.
22:34:00 <clokep_work> flo-retina: QQ builds the whole popup manually.
22:34:16 <flo-retina> Mic: I would like the a single window UI on my work machine
22:36:05 <flo-retina> Mic: also, I want more conversations than I can have tabs, and putting half of the channels on hold isn't really useful (I'm in lots of very low traffic channels but where I want to see messages immediately)
22:36:40 <EionRobb> single-window UI would work well on win8 ;)
22:37:14 <flo-retina> Mic: and I've never really liked the concept of vertical tabs. The UI of Tb Chat with the contact list and the conversations list merged seems attractive to me for my work use case though. (and the concept of conversations on hold becomes irrelevant there)
22:37:29 <Mic> flo-retina: true, it would help against the ineffable convs-on-hold ;)
22:37:53 <EionRobb> what's a conversation that's "on hold"?
22:38:13 <Mic> It's an attempt to recreate a sort of taskbar in the contact list :P
22:38:15 <flo-retina> EionRobb: get Instantbird, and press the escape key in a conversation ;)
22:39:01 <flo-retina> Mic: well, the concept of convs on hold was really interesting when combined with the do not disturb add-on
22:39:02 <flo-retina> Mic: there was an idea that some conversations are important to focus on right now, and others should wait
22:39:03 <EionRobb> does it not close the conversation window?
22:40:11 <Mic> flo-retina: would the list part be collapsible?  
22:40:52 * clokep_work really likes vertical lists of tabs...
22:41:47 <Mic> I think I could like something like the conv-top combined with vertical tabs (name + icon + status message visible all the time for every conversation tab)
22:44:48 * flo-retina doesn't know what that means
22:45:30 <EionRobb> if you were doing a one window view, would you merge the conversation list with the buddy list?
22:49:02 <flo-retina> EionRobb: yes
22:58:01 <flo-retina> Good night
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