#instantbird log on 12 19 2012

All times are UTC.

00:01:37 <clokep> :(
00:03:05 <Mic> Chat logs *are* written do disk if you have them enabled.
00:04:04 <clokep> Mic: Hmm...I had assumed Mook_as was talking about debug logs. :(
00:04:09 <clokep> Maybe he was talking about regular logs.
00:04:15 <clokep> I think those are written to disk in a sync fashion, yes.
00:05:35 <Mook_as> yeah, I'm talking about the json chat logs
00:05:39 <clokep> Ah.
00:05:43 <clokep> Those are written to disk, sorry.
00:05:49 <clokep> I think it's done in a sync way, yes.
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00:27:21 * clokep successfully authenticated to AOL!
00:27:55 <Mic> :)
00:27:57 <EionRobb> well done? :)
00:28:53 <clokep> I was only getting the first 8 bytes of the authkey instead of all ten. :( Stupid me.
00:30:11 * Mic already assumed that it was about js-oscar and not a case of "oh, congratulations, you've discovered how to use the account wizard" :P
00:38:41 <clokep> Good assumption. :P
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00:39:04 <EionRobb> lol
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00:47:45 <clokep> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799036 if anyone is curious.
00:51:47 <EionRobb> I'll try anything once
00:51:52 <EionRobb> wait... what are we being curious about?
00:52:37 <clokep> My OSCAR WIP.
00:52:41 <EionRobb> ;)
00:53:09 <clokep> They have fun JavaScript harmony features that aleth will enjoy. :)
00:53:53 <Mic> I saw an array comprehension too :)
00:55:24 <clokep> On occasion I find them useful... ;)
00:59:07 <Mook_as> reading comment 4, my conclusion is that clokep is unreal :p
00:59:27 <clokep> Mook_as: That bug was actually filed the day after I started that code. ;)
01:00:04 <clokep> Usul emailed me after comment #3 and was like "no one will do this!" and I was like "I just started this!"
01:00:07 <clokep> So he reopened it. :-D
01:00:47 <EionRobb> lol
01:00:50 <EionRobb> you nutter
01:01:33 <Mic> Good night
01:02:00 <Mook_as> so, when are you starting your skype-in-js implementation? :p
01:02:18 <clokep> I started a Skype-in-C++ one and have done very little work on it.
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01:03:20 <EionRobb> not using skypekit though, right?
01:03:31 <clokep> Using SkypeKit, yes.
01:03:48 <EionRobb> oh that's right.. I saw that one, you just wouldn't be able to distribute it
01:04:38 <clokep> Why not? It doesn't depend on libpurple at all.
01:04:45 <clokep> I can distribute it for Thunderbird.
01:05:54 <EionRobb> no open source licenses allowed
01:06:31 <EionRobb> one of the terms of the skypekit agreement
01:07:02 <clokep> That doesn' tmean I can't distribute it.
01:07:20 <EionRobb> hmm.. yeah I guess
01:07:34 <EionRobb> as long as you don't distribute it with an opensource license
01:07:47 <clokep> Or I can just not distribute the source.
01:08:52 <EionRobb> it just says you can't distribute it with any kind of opensource license
01:09:16 <EionRobb> but it'd be fun to rewrite the skypekit library, since its over tcp
01:11:26 <clokep> The license says you can use open source licenses, as long as they don't cause any part of SkypeKit to be subject to that license (aka, you can't use viral licenses like the GPL): http://pastebin.instantbird.com/115647
01:12:01 <clokep> Although a later section seems to directly contradict that statement: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/115648
01:12:30 <clokep> I've seen quite a bit of code that uses SkypeKit available under OSS licenses.
01:12:32 <EionRobb> yeah, pretty messy terms, right?
01:14:11 <clokep> Yup.
01:14:29 <Mook_as> no, that doesn't sound contradictory to me...
01:14:40 <Mook_as> it's just "skypekit is closed"
01:15:21 <Mook_as> of course, that's because I'm parsing it as http://pastebin.instantbird.com/115649
01:16:06 <clokep> Yeah. And MPL allows licenses at source boundaries so...it's not unreasonable.
01:17:30 <Mook_as> also, BSD is open source :p
01:17:54 <clokep> SkypeKit already uses BSD code. ;)
01:18:14 <Mook_as> good, that means they aren't violating their own license agreement :p
01:21:04 <clokep> My Instantbird doesn't seem to be using ridiculous amounts of memory/CPU now. :)
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03:26:05 <instant-buildbot> build #716 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/716
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04:19:50 <instant-buildbot> build #718 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/718
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11:18:59 <flo-retina> clokep: the MD5 of the password in the debug log wouldn't be an issue
11:19:12 <flo-retina> clokep: the problem is that we may also have the b64 encoded version of the password :(
11:19:28 <clokep> Ah, yeah wrong "hashing", sorry.
11:19:28 <flo-retina> (when connected over SSL and using the PLAIN SASL method)
11:20:08 <flo-retina> Mook_as: logs are written to disk on the main thread. Yes this is wrong and something we need to fix. Eventually. ;).
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11:42:11 <flo-retina> It seems I succeeded in getting some attention on https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=790695 :)
11:44:11 <clokep> Apparently you just need to CC the right people. :-D
11:47:25 <flo-retina> and show them that you tried their latest baby ;)
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11:56:28 <clokep> Haha, yes. That's a good way to get people interested. :)
11:56:53 <clokep> That tool seems fairly neat though!
12:00:27 <clokep> Btw, closing Instantbird doesn't hang anymore.
12:00:56 <clokep> I hope this is true for mpmc too. :)
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12:20:27 <flo-retina> clokep: "That tool seems fairly neat though!" yes, it's an exciting tool! :)
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15:10:40 <instantbot> New Core - General bug 1858 filed by mauriliogenovese@gmail.com.
15:10:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1858 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, multichat in MSN
15:11:31 * clokep_work really doesn't think Pidgin supports it...
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15:12:35 <flo-retina> clokep_work: there may be a prpl-specific menu item somewhere for it in Pidgin
15:15:31 <clokep_work> (o_O)
15:15:48 <clokep_work> Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of having the interfaces for join chat and stuff in a prpl?
15:16:45 <flo-retina> ...
15:17:15 <flo-retina> clokep_work: also, iirc, all MSN conversations are chatrooms by default, and you just need to invite more people to a 1-on-1 conversation to make it a "chat"
15:17:38 <clokep_work> Yes, they are.
15:17:45 <clokep_work> But Pidgin doesn't handle that IIRC.
15:17:53 <flo-retina> so you don't join a chat room on MSN, you are invited to join an existing discussion
15:18:09 <flo-retina> Pidgin starts a new MUC conversation when a third user is added
15:18:24 * flo-retina wonders how MSN group chats work over XMPP
15:20:36 * clokep_work wonders if that bug is invalid or not. ;)
15:21:59 <flo-retina> feels like a dupe ;)
15:22:45 <clokep_work> I can't find one...
15:23:03 <clokep_work> ALthog if they mean "start" and not "Join", I foudn one...
15:26:08 <flo-retina> which one is it?
15:26:30 <clokep_work> bug 1597
15:26:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1597 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unable to invite people to chats in MSN
15:27:51 <flo-retina> "with pidgin we can call a chat with one msn friend, and invite
15:27:52 <flo-retina> others to join our chat"
15:28:07 <flo-retina> seems a dupe :)
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15:34:52 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1858 to DUPLICATE of bug 1597.
15:34:54 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1858 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, multichat in MSN
15:34:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1597 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unable to invite people to chats in MSN
15:35:13 <clokep_work> Happy? :P
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15:39:53 * clokep_work should finish that ping patch. :_/
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16:01:51 <flo-retina> clokep_work: so how much faster would I get reconnected after changing the wifi access point I use?
16:02:11 <flo-retina> (the second time I got tired of waiting and disconnected/reconnected the irc account from the account manager)
16:08:05 <clokep_work> flo-retina: It should only be a couple of seconds period. No matter what. Even without that change.
16:08:10 <clokep_work> WIth that change...it could potentially be faster.
16:08:23 <flo-retina> clokep_work: it's currently more than 5 minutes
16:08:45 <clokep_work> I forget what the timeouts I used was.
16:08:51 <clokep_work> But I think it'sf aster than that.
16:08:53 <clokep_work> (2 minutes?)
16:08:56 <flo-retina> there were "5 minutes 13 seconds" between the latest message in the debug log, and my click on "disconnect" in the account manager
16:09:05 <clokep_work> Currently we wait for the socket to time out, I think.
16:12:49 <clokep_work> I think...
16:12:56 <clokep_work> Yeah, so it'd be whatever we make that timeout to.
16:13:24 <flo-retina> clokep_work: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/chat/protocols/irc/irc.js#578
16:13:36 <clokep_work> Did your XMPP connect really quickly?
16:13:43 <flo-retina> no
16:13:45 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I know that.
16:13:47 <flo-retina> it reconnected after ~2 minutes
16:13:54 <clokep_work> Which is expected.
16:14:03 <clokep_work> And IRC should be the same w/ that patch.
16:14:11 <flo-retina> well, it reconnected 3 minutes before I disconnected the irc account by hand
16:15:18 <flo-retina> my both my moznet and my freenode irc accounts show "connected for about 14 minutes" so I guess the freenode account timeouted approximately at the same time that I manually disconnected the moznet one.
16:15:32 <clokep_work> OK.
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16:18:51 <clokep_work> I think that it would help, yes.
16:21:46 <flo-retina> it would reduce the time to 2 minutes, like xmpp?
16:22:04 <flo-retina> or are we going to ping more often than that?
16:22:28 <clokep_work> It would reduce it to two minutes, like xmpp.
16:22:39 <clokep_work> But as I said earlier we could set the ping time to whatever we wanted (for both XMPP and IRC).
16:23:59 <clokep_work> (Although, anything less than like 40 seconds is probably excessive.)
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16:27:03 <flo-retina> we could get clever and do it after the average time before we receive something from the server.
16:27:09 <flo-retina> or twice that time
16:28:02 <clokep_work> If you're getting messages quickly that seems like it wouldn't work very well...
16:28:24 <clokep_work> But maybe if you weight it, it could.
16:28:35 <clokep_work> (Sounds like more reasons to make that code part of socket.jsm. ;))
16:28:57 <flo-retina> clokep_work: "If you're getting messages quickly that seems like it wouldn't work very well..." what do you mean?
16:29:52 <flo-retina> what I was thinking is that if we are typically receiving a message from the server every second, or every 5 seconds, waiting 2 minutes (or even 40s) before pinging is silly.
16:29:53 <clokep_work> Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting.
16:30:07 <clokep_work> RIght.
16:30:19 <clokep_work> But if we're in busy IRC channels and receive 30 messages a second...
16:30:58 <flo-retina> sure, we would keep a minimum or say 5 seconds
16:31:03 <flo-retina> s/or/of/
16:32:44 <clokep_work> OK.
16:32:52 <clokep_work> I think we should do some moving average though.
16:33:57 <instantbot> sztanpet@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1856 to DUPLICATE of bug 1846.
16:34:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1856 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, Crash when disconnecting from MSN/GTalk
16:34:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1846 min, --, 1.4, aleth, RESO FIXED, Changing the status to available while an IRC account is in the disconnecting state doesn't reconnec
16:37:47 <clokep_work> :) I like when people close bugs without doing work. ;)
16:51:29 <flo-retina> could we get him to start writing code? ;)
16:52:41 <clokep_work> Is that mpmc?
16:52:54 <flo-retina> possibly
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17:05:23 <clokep_work> mpmc: Was that you that just closed bug 1856?
17:05:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1856 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, Crash when disconnecting from MSN/GTalk
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17:07:43 <mpmc> clokep_work: No it wasn't.
17:07:55 <mpmc> I didn't even open one :p
17:08:06 <clokep_work> OK. :) Have you still been having issues after updating?
17:08:17 <mpmc> I shall try now.
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17:10:25 <mpmc> Yes, It's fixed now in latest nightly.
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17:10:34 <clokep_work> :)
17:11:23 <mpmc> Hmm, let me try and crash it again lol
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17:12:25 <clokep_work> rosonline: EionRobb reported some pidgin users had issues connecting to VK yesterday.
17:12:28 <clokep_work> Maybe it is a server issue?
17:12:48 <mpmc1> Nope, didn't crash, well done to whoever fixed it!
17:13:00 <clokep_work> :) Good.
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17:20:35 <rosonline> clokep_work:  Yep! However, the Vk and Twitter protocol are work!
17:21:18 <clokep_work> rosonline: So that bug can be closed then?
17:29:31 <rosonline> clokep_work: Yes!
17:30:08 <clokep_work> rosonline: Can you close it, or should I?
17:30:32 <rosonline> clokep_work: I don't know how I close it.
17:31:27 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1857 to WORKSFORME.
17:31:29 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1857 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Vkontakte account doesn't connect!
17:31:42 <rosonline> clokep_work: Is there any project to Windows RT/Phone  or Android app?
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18:11:09 <clokep_work> rosonline: No.
18:11:20 <clokep_work> flo-retina: wants an Android app, I think.
18:11:36 <flo-retina> not any more
18:11:52 <flo-retina> (well, I don't intend to work on it at least)
18:12:03 <flo-retina> if some student wants to do it for Summer of Code, I won't be against it
18:12:28 <flo-retina> (although I'm not sure if that would be an acceptable "mozilla" project)
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18:30:14 <rosonline> flo-retina: OK. There's an two new pottencial environments. 
18:32:57 <rosonline> flo-retina: Windows Phone and RT. Maybe #instantbird could work in this someday...
18:33:43 <flo-retina> These platforms don't seem very exciting.
18:34:44 <rosonline> But I think that Windows Phone (especiallity) is growing up!
18:34:54 * clokep_work has a Windows Phone.
18:35:02 <clokep_work> Windows Phone 8 can run native code IIRC>
18:35:11 <clokep_work> But I agree, it doesn't excite me.
18:35:42 <flo-retina> clokep_work: IM on phones isn't very exciting in general
18:35:59 <flo-retina> IM requires a lot of typing. That's what touch screens are really bad at.
18:36:02 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I agree.
18:36:20 * clokep_work would also want it integrated into the native messaging on the phone...
18:36:53 <rosonline> Why not! A lot of people (in Brazil) are almost "literally connected with yours smartphones"
18:37:00 <clokep_work> That doesn't mean I wouldn't be interested in helping someone do things like that though.
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18:38:06 * clokep_work wonders if wnayes is done w/ his semester. ;)
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18:38:38 <flo-retina> wnayes1: hello :)
18:39:14 <wnayes1> flo-retina: Hi :) clokep_work: Just got home yesterday.
18:40:10 * wnayes1 is now known as wnayes
18:41:39 <rosonline> Unfortunatelly I don't know how Jscript works and how I can help you with this, I can help with the translations and layout (ideas)
18:41:58 <clokep_work> You don't know yet. ;)
18:42:16 <rosonline> What?
18:43:21 <rosonline> I think that russian language is more easy than Jscrip or another programmer code
18:44:03 <rosonline> :D
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18:46:36 * clokep_work shrugs.
18:49:09 <rosonline> I want to say that I don't know about the programmer code, so I'm useless...
18:49:29 <rosonline> Ideas without practice and actions
18:57:13 * clokep_work wonders if wnayes uses oscar too...
19:07:13 <wnayes> I have an AIM account but it is rarely used.
19:07:19 <clokep_work> Oh OK.
19:07:27 <clokep_work> I guess you won't want to review my oscar code eventually then? :P
19:12:03 <wnayes> It might be interesting to look at :) I'm guessing there's a lot of typed-arrays and DataView code involved.
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19:14:00 <clokep_work> Yes, lots of typed-arrays, DataViews and other binary garbage.
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19:16:10 <mpmc> Too many... w.. w.. wires...
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20:51:57 <clokep_work> :(
20:52:03 <clokep_work> I just got one of those uncloseable blank tabs...
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22:18:41 <wnayes> flo-retina: Would having a common prototype for SystemLog and ConversationLog be a worthwhile refactoring? That is the other big change to logger.js that I have in the importer patch, and could be done separately (or just scrapped).
22:19:47 <flo-retina> wnayes: how much gets shared? how do you feel about it?
22:23:20 <wnayes> The handling of the log file I/O is shared between the two (ends up being about 20 lines). I think it makes sense as it reduces duplicate code.
22:23:42 <flo-retina> do you have that mostly ready already?
22:23:54 <flo-retina> or is it a lot of work to separate the patch?
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22:25:40 <wnayes> it's in my importer mega patch right now. It either has to be removed or accepted as is, so not too much work. Having it separate would make my importer changes to logger.js only involve adding a method.
22:27:28 <flo-retina> so I should go look again at the patch in bug 1495?
22:27:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1495 enh, --, ---, wnayes, ASSI, Create an account import wizard - GSoC 2012
22:28:34 <wnayes> I'll find it in the repository
22:29:28 <wnayes> Basically the LogWriter from my summer patch is what I'm talking about: http://hg.instantbird.org/users/wnayes/file/c6e78efbcd70/chat/components/src/logger.js#l84
22:29:53 <wnayes> You mentioned in the reviews that it could be made into a prototype for the two Log types.
22:30:18 <flo-retina> ah
22:30:25 <flo-retina> so are you asking if I really meant my review comment? :)
22:31:29 <wnayes> Yes :) And if you want it as a separate patch now (I'm trying to break down what is required for the importer patch and what could be committed separately to shrink it)
22:31:42 <flo-retina> (not really related) how much work would it be to make these disk writes asynchronous?
22:35:38 <wnayes> Maybe OS.File could be useful for that.
22:36:43 <flo-retina> ok, I read the review comment again. You don't have to make that a prototype, it was just a random idea. What you have is fine if you want to keep it.
22:37:05 <flo-retina> it can be commited as a separate patch, that would be a good idea (and a first step toward making log writing async maybe :))
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22:38:30 <flo-retina> please address the other review comment ("Why haven't you kept the writeString name for the new LogWriter objects?")
22:39:11 <wnayes> I have that change locally already :)
22:41:43 <flo-retina> clokep: this debug log (just after my account reconnected itself) seems strange to me: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/116057
22:42:13 <flo-retina> how come the server tells me 11 times at the same second that jb is offline and jb1 is offline?
22:43:08 <EionRobb> it wants to make sure you know
22:44:42 <flo-retina> clokep: (and of course, what I really hoped to find in the debug log was the last few messages just before I got disconnected)
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22:50:56 <wnayes> Is building on Windows with the latest changes\moz17 working?
22:51:37 <flo-retina> yes
22:52:03 <flo-retina> wnayes: you can see on http://buildbot.instantbird.org/waterfall that the latest windows nightly is green
22:53:12 <EionRobb> purddy colours
22:54:36 <wnayes> flo-retina: OK, Thanks. Looks like nightlies are built with make - is pymake safe to use again?
22:55:50 <flo-retina> I think clokep uses pymake
22:56:11 <flo-retina> wnayes: gmake isn't safe if you intend to use more than one CPU core
22:56:21 <EionRobb> $> pymake clokep
22:56:21 <EionRobb> pymake: unexpected input
22:58:03 <wnayes> With moz15/16 we were both having issues with pymake errors and he suggested using make. I'll give it a go again though.
23:18:14 * flo-retina wonders if he's the only one excited by http://queze.net/goinfre/bubble-markup.html
23:19:25 <EionRobb> that looks pretty :)
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23:19:50 <flo-retina> EionRobb: the interesting part is when looking at the HTML/CSS source code ;)
23:19:57 <EionRobb> it even works in opera
23:20:05 <EionRobb> just not the background gradient
23:20:28 * flo-retina couldn't care less if it works or not in non-gecko browsers
23:20:32 <EionRobb> lol
23:21:05 <EionRobb> don't you want to be able to port adiummessagethemes to IB though? :P
23:21:07 <flo-retina> ah, well, maybe I could care for an IRC log viewer
23:21:27 <EionRobb> theme.replace(/webkit/g, 'moz')
23:21:51 <flo-retina> EionRobb: I'm not going to package that theme as an add-on
23:22:00 <flo-retina> EionRobb: it's the default Instantbird message theme
23:22:11 <EionRobb> cool :)
23:22:28 <EionRobb> so that's going to speed rendering up by using it all from css?
23:22:31 <flo-retina> EionRobb: except I almost cut in half the amount of <div> nodes requires
23:22:32 <flo-retina> *required
23:23:55 <EionRobb> although won't the top:calc() be slow?
23:24:15 <EionRobb> would you be better with top: 50%; margin-top: -24px
23:25:15 <flo-retina> EionRobb: that works too :)
23:25:37 <EionRobb> will that just be for IM's or will it be for MUC's too?
23:25:38 <flo-retina> then it doesn't use any modern CSS feature :)
23:25:46 <flo-retina> EionRobb: it's for MUCs
23:26:10 <flo-retina> EionRobb: I think we won't display the buddy icons until we find a way to have an option to turn them off
23:26:10 <EionRobb> interesting
23:26:43 <flo-retina> but basically, what I've done is reimplementing from scratch the markup and CSS of the current theme, because I was going crazy while trying to hack it. ;)
23:26:52 <EionRobb> good :)
23:26:59 <EionRobb> going crazy is very productive
23:27:09 <clokep> Interesting... http://blog.pearce.org.nz/2012/12/experimental-h264aac-and-mp3-support-in.html
23:27:21 <flo-retina> so next I need to convert that to a message theme
23:27:32 <flo-retina> hopefully it will need a lot less JS code
23:27:58 <clokep> wnayes, flo-retina: I have not being using pymake, it broke for me with Moz 16.
23:28:01 <Mook_as> clokep: ah, the WMF stuff?
23:28:11 <flo-retina> clokep: interesting for what?
23:28:21 <flo-retina> clokep: it's only decoders, not encoders :(
23:28:26 <clokep> flo-retina: Ah. :(
23:29:39 <flo-retina> clokep: any idea of how we could handle an option for the buddy icons in message themes? (or in bubbles specifically)
23:30:06 <clokep> flo-retina: From a UI or backend POV?
23:30:26 <flo-retina> both
23:30:51 <flo-retina> I don't have good ideas about how we can get out of the mess of variants that the current bubble is
23:31:09 <flo-retina> especially having the alternating and non alternating variant for each set of colors is horrible :(
23:31:10 <clokep> Me neither. :(
23:31:18 <clokep> I'd like it if we could support options for themes...
23:32:26 <flo-retina> crazy idea: give the user a selector to select the incoming and outgoing colors used for IMs, and give them to the message theme in the same way that we give it colors of chat nicks
23:33:09 <clokep> How do we give it colors of chat nicks? :P
23:33:35 <flo-retina> %senderColor% set to "color: hsl(...)"
23:34:15 <clokep> Interesting.
23:34:22 <clokep> That could work.
23:34:32 <flo-retina> It's obviously a hack :)
23:35:02 <EionRobb> .bubble.incoming[data-username=flo-retina] { background-color: blue }
23:37:06 <clokep> .bubble.incoming[data-username=EionRobb] { display: none; }?
23:37:28 <EionRobb> \o/
23:37:46 * EionRobb shouts endlessly into the void
23:39:38 <Mook_as> for the alternating stuff: transform: scaleX(-1); might at least half the images you need to ship.
23:40:30 <flo-retina> Mook_as: I tried that yesterday
23:41:25 <flo-retina> Mook_as: and had to give up when I remembered that all these images aren't symmetrical because of the damn shadow.
23:42:01 <EionRobb> oh, does it flip the shadow too?
23:42:08 <Mook_as> haha
23:42:12 <EionRobb> you can't just re-do the shadow position?
23:42:32 <flo-retina> Mook_as: It's too bad shadows can't be applied to a background image.
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23:43:46 <flo-retina> (or if you find a way to do it that I don't know, I'm interested obviously :))
23:44:03 <EionRobb> you could apply mutliple background images
23:44:36 <flo-retina> EionRobb: I thought about this just one second before seeing your message :)
23:44:39 <EionRobb> or use a border image?
23:45:17 <EionRobb> css is fun :)
23:45:52 <flo-retina> I'm not sure about the border image. I should try more. That may let us get rid of the :before and :after parts of my css
23:46:32 <flo-retina> but anyway, good night!
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23:50:02 <EionRobb> I use border-images in the juice plugin for pidgin.  good fun