#instantbird log on 11 07 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:09:00 <flo-retina> rosonline: hi :). Do you think the translation into your locale is likely to be ready for Instantbird 1.3 (that we hope to release next week)
00:09:44 <rosonline> flo-retina: No yet, but I can ready it quickly, if you want.
00:10:13 <flo-retina> I know it's not ready yet
00:10:40 <flo-retina> but if you want 1.3 to be in your locale, you have a bit less than a week left to finish it, so I'm wondering if that's enough time for you to finish
00:11:14 <rosonline> flo-retina: OK.
00:11:47 <rosonline> I'll work in it now
00:12:26 <rosonline> One question: There's any change in this files until the 1.3?
00:13:40 <rosonline> Is tere?
00:13:44 <rosonline> is there?
00:15:30 <rosonline> flo-retina: Is there any change in this en-US files?
00:16:26 <flo-retina> rosonline: the en-US files won't change between today and the 1.3 release
00:16:40 <flo-retina> rosonline: I'm writing an email right now to all localizers to announce that.
00:16:55 <rosonline> flo-retina: good!
00:17:01 <rosonline> Send me too
00:18:03 <clokep> Thanks for writing that email flo-retina. :)
00:18:06 <flo-retina> clokep: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/97236
00:18:41 <clokep> flo-retina: r+
00:18:42 <flo-retina> rosonline: I just added you to the localizers mailing list. I hope you have received the invitation.
00:19:03 <rosonline> flo-retina: by email?
00:19:27 <flo-retina> clokep: drafting the email wasn't too much work. Figuring out who needed to be added to the l10n list took longer. (I added rosonline, unghost, and the new Hungarian translator)
00:19:46 <clokep> :) It'd be great to release in more locales!
00:20:11 <flo-retina> rosonline: yes; I used rosonline.mail AT gmail.com, is that the correct address?
00:20:22 <flo-retina> if it is and you haven't received it, maybe check the spam folder?
00:20:24 <rosonline> flo-retina: Yes!
00:20:47 <rosonline> I received it
00:21:15 <flo-retina> clokep: btw, someone should try to find pl translators to update that locale. Not sure what happened to that l10n team, but their locale wasn't updated for 1.2 even though the team used to be one of the most active, and the Mozilla community in Poland is super active
00:23:28 <flo-retina> we may also want to find a more responsive French localizer
00:25:21 <clokep> :-/
00:26:31 <rosonline> It's craziest times!
00:26:40 <rosonline> ^^'
00:29:57 <flo-retina> clokep: now that I think about it, that email probably missed a summary of the exciting changes between 1.2 and 1.3
00:30:19 <flo-retina> but I honestly have no idea of what has changed :(
00:30:27 <flo-retina> I don't remember how 1.2 was :)
00:33:05 <clokep> Right, you need me to write release notes first. ;)
00:33:32 <flo-retina> 122 changesets
00:34:04 <flo-retina> clokep: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/97237
00:34:11 <flo-retina> that may help for the release notes ;)
00:34:42 <flo-retina> uh, we forgot to update libpurple
00:34:48 <flo-retina> bah... who cares? :-D
00:36:34 <EionRobb> lol
00:37:06 <clokep> flo-retina: I don't think 2.10.4 --> 2.10.6 even has string change.s
00:37:17 <clokep> flo-retina: Thanks for that list. :)
00:39:40 <flo-retina> clokep: that least seems to say "accessibility++, IRC improvements, twitter improvements (topic, reply to all, tab icon), Show Nick, updated to Moz16."
00:40:06 <clokep> That's pretty much it, yes.
00:40:13 <flo-retina> not a very exciting release
00:40:15 <flo-retina> mostly bug fixes
00:40:16 <clokep> Also the minimum glib was increased?
00:40:31 <flo-retina> really?
00:40:37 <clokep> Oh wait.
00:40:40 <clokep> No...wrong bug. :)
00:40:49 <clokep> We made it compatible w/ higher glib releases.
00:40:57 <flo-retina> ah, fixes for compatibility with OS X 10.8 too
00:41:13 <flo-retina> although I'm almost sure the background of the dmg file needs fixing :(
00:41:20 <flo-retina> and that's probably 1.3 wanted :(
00:42:08 <rosonline> flo-retina: Help me! When i commit an archive, the ortoise tell me: HTTP error 405 (push requires POST request)
00:42:35 <flo-retina> rosonline: which url are you using for the repository?
00:43:04 <rosonline> hg.instantbird.org/l10n/pt-BR
00:43:35 <flo-retina> that's no an url
00:43:42 <flo-retina> *not
00:43:52 <flo-retina> but I suspect you forgot the "/" at the end of the URL
00:44:30 <rosonline> flo-retina: I think not!
00:44:44 <flo-retina> https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Translation/FAQ#What_does_the_error_.22abort:_HTTP_Error_405:_push_requires_POST_request.22_mean.3F
00:45:02 <rosonline> flo-retina: I forgot the change the HTTP to HTTPS
00:45:37 <rosonline> I did this change and I can update the archives -_-'
00:47:15 <flo-retina> the sv-SE locale is complete. That was a fast reaction to my email! ;)
00:48:30 <flo-retina> ah no, it wasn't actually. It's just that the l10n builder started now.
00:48:37 <flo-retina> the commit was made at 9am :)
00:49:44 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1773 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
00:49:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1773 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Fix the layout/background of the Mac disk image for compatibility with OS X 10.8
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00:51:04 <instant-buildbot> build #345 of linux-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-onCommit/builds/345
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00:53:23 <flo-retina> the server is slow again. This time it's buildbot that's sucking the CPU
00:58:03 * clokep is distracted by the awful US election coverage...
00:58:32 <EionRobb> US is awful, or the US elections are awful?
01:03:02 <flo-retina> Good night
01:04:31 <clokep> EionRobb: The election coverage is awful. Well really the news agencies in general here.
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02:03:59 <instant-buildbot> build #332 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/332
02:35:34 <clokep> flo-retina: Mic: aleth: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/ib-1-3-release-notes (generated from http://pastebin.instantbird.com/97237)
02:36:34 <clokep> I can try to get a blog post form tomorrow if you'd like.
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03:03:08 <instant-buildbot> build #313 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/313
03:35:21 <instant-buildbot> build #678 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/678
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05:16:33 <instant-buildbot> build #766 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/766
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08:18:10 <instant-buildbot> build #679 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/679
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08:53:10 <Mic> Hi
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08:54:40 <Mic> I'm on 20121107041556 and I'm still seeing bug 1772 :(
08:54:43 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1772 cri, --, 1.3, clokep, RESO FIXED, IRC account disconnects on receiving action messages containing line breaks
08:57:07 <FeuerFliege> hi
09:02:18 <Mic> FeuerFliege: cool, "de" is almost finished :)
09:02:51 <Mic> Good job :)
09:03:43 <FeuerFliege> Mic: It was ready, but there there were 12 new strings in the last 48h.
09:03:55 <Mic> I'm sorry, that was me ;)
09:04:00 <Mic> Bug 1608
09:04:04 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1608 nor, --, 1.3, benediktp, RESO FIXED, Replace "buddy" with "contact" in user-facing strings
09:04:05 <FeuerFliege> buggy -> contact?
09:05:03 <FeuerFliege> Mic: Do you know if there is already a draft for the release notes?
09:05:14 <Mic> I don't think there's one yet.
09:05:43 <Mic> btw we decided against Ctrl+C for "Add Contact" in en, because it's used for "Copy" everywhere else already.
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09:06:23 <Mic> It's used for "Chat beitreten..." in german though, maybe we should change that  too?
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09:10:06 <FeuerFliege> Mic: right, Strg+C seems like a bad idea.
09:11:05 <FeuerFliege> http://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/locales-status.html#de seems not to be up to date. I cannot find the missing string conversation.error.notDelivered 
09:11:27 <Mic> What do you think about keeping all shortcuts as they are in "en"? (not the accesskeys which should be related to the label, of course)
09:12:59 <FeuerFliege> Mic: I will look into this. Did you changed anything else in the strings for bug 1608 except replacing buddy with contact?
09:13:02 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1608 nor, --, 1.3, benediktp, RESO FIXED, Replace "buddy" with "contact" in user-facing strings
09:14:47 <Mic> There's one place where the label "Buddy" was changed to "Username", if that's what you mean
09:15:27 <Mic> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/attachment.cgi?id=2053&action=diff#a/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/addbuddy.dtd_sec1
09:16:38 <Mic> There were some changes to the localization comments too, I don't know how that affects you
09:19:49 <Mic> FeuerFliege: about the release notes: http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today/#m89
09:20:05 <Mic> Seems I hadn't finished reading the log yet
09:21:26 <FeuerFliege> flo: http://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/locales-status.html#de seems off. It mentions conversation.error.notDelivered in xmpp.properties which I cannot find at all and addonManager.key which was fixed with bug 1674 two weeks ago.
09:21:29 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1674 nor, --, 1.3, benediktp, RESO FIXED, Accesskey for Add-ons manager not localizable
09:23:19 <FeuerFliege> Mic: thx!
09:25:19 <Mic> We need a way to search about:memory... :S
09:25:32 <Mic> *search through
09:26:55 <Mic> clokep: is "The memory of each component is now tracked individually (libpurple vs. purplexpcom vs. Instantbird)." actually true? I can't find something about purplexpcom on about:memory and bug 1564 isn't fixed yet either.
09:26:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1564 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add memory reporters to purplexpcom
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09:40:14 <flo-retina> FeuerFliege: http://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/en-US/file/995db2f2103b/chat/xmpp.properties#l42
09:41:22 <flo-retina> and addonManager.key is at http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/instantbird.dtd#48
09:42:18 <flo-retina> apparently I made a mistake while unbitrotting http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/0d2e723c6ada (would have been way easier to see what I was doing if the patch didn't reindent everything)
09:49:20 <FeuerFliege> flo-retina: Ups, I updated the wrong repo (not the one I use for compare-locales).
09:50:05 <flo-retina> not sure if I should break the string freeze to remove the addonManager.key string or do that after the release
09:52:10 <FeuerFliege> and sorry about my patch for bug 833. It applied when I created it, but in the meantime Mics patch was committed.
09:52:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=833 enh, --, 1.3, bugi, RESO FIXED, Add access keys menu bar items
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10:39:33 <flo-retina> FeuerFliege: "It applied when I created it, but in the meantime Mics patch was committed."  That's the definition of bitrot, yes ;)
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11:05:35 <flo-retina> would anybody be against putting the "mobile" status on all the Gtalk resources that expose the capabilities " <caps:c xmlns="http://jabber.org/protocol/caps" node="http://www.android.com/gtalk/client/caps" ext="pmuc-v1 voice-v1 video-v1 camera-v1" ver="1.1"/>" (the downside is that would ignore the status sent by the client...)
11:06:02 <flo-retina> checking the tooltip to see if the resource is named "android_*" is tedious :-S
11:08:11 <Mic> You mean these contacts would always be "mobile" then an no longer "available"/"unavailable"?
11:08:33 <flo-retina> right
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11:09:45 <Mic> Maybe use "mobile" instead of "available"?
11:11:13 <flo-retina> Mic: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/imIStatusInfo.idl#19 Our "mobile" status is the least available status we have
11:12:39 <Mic> I meant setting the status to mobile only if it applies && the user is available, i.e. hack it into the protocol?
11:13:36 <flo-retina> and why not setting it to mobile when the user is "unavailable" on the android resource?
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11:15:10 <Mic> If the user is unavailable she wouldn't want to get messages either way -> it doesn't matter that she's on mobile?
11:16:48 <Mic> Well, the problem is that "mobile" is among status that are mutually exclusive otherwise while it isn't.
11:16:58 <Mic> *statuses ?
11:17:30 <flo-retina> Mic: "unavailable" is 'more avaiable' and "idle", but less than "mobile"
11:17:34 <Mic> (seems to be the correct plural form;)
11:18:17 <flo-retina> so if the user is idle on desktop, and available (displayed as mobile) on the android device, switching to unavailable on android (making that resource less available than before) would make Instantbird think the android device is more available than the desktop
11:19:41 <Mic> Ah!
11:20:42 <flo-retina> Mic: "Well, the problem is that "mobile" is among status that are mutually exclusive otherwise while it isn't." right. And "mobile" is in that list because we need to take it into account for sorting the availability of resources.
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11:29:45 <clokep> Mic: If you're still seeing that bug, I'll need exact STR.
11:29:52 <clokep> flo-retina: We have a bug about that you know. ;)
11:30:23 <flo-retina> clokep: we have bugs about lots of things that people disagree on ;)
11:30:51 <clokep> flo-retina: It is somewhat unfortunate that you can't be mobile + other statuses.
11:31:05 <flo-retina> clokep: sure.
11:31:19 <flo-retina> clokep: but what would you want to display in the status UI when you are mobile + unavailable?
11:31:47 <clokep> A phone and a red dot? :P
11:31:49 * clokep doesn't know
11:31:50 <flo-retina> or should we display the phone on the right side of the contact, and keep the status on the left?
11:31:57 <flo-retina> clokep: a red phone? :)
11:32:08 <clokep> Haha.
11:34:00 <clokep> flo-retina: I think it is reasonable to just always make them mobile, but I do wonder if it would be better to have that as a separate flag.
11:37:27 <clokep> The only issue I have with that is that if someone is signed in in multiple places, and the desktop is idle and the phone is mobile...I'd want to IM the phone.
11:37:58 <flo-retina> that's the problem
11:38:46 <flo-retina> it's almost impossible to guess if the user prefers not annoying the contact on his phone, and sending the message to the idle resource so that the contact sees it when he's back at his desk, or if the message needs to be delivered ASAP (ie to the phone)
11:45:12 <clokep> :-/
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12:20:58 <Mic> clokep: I'm seeing the bug only here but not on a freshly downloaded nightly with a new profile.
12:21:37 <Mic> Now this is cool :)
12:21:53 <Mic> I mean it was to be expected but actually seeing it is cool :)
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12:24:56 <Mic> (This was about the "already left"-highlighting of clokep's nick, just for the logs;)
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12:57:46 <Mic> FeuerFliege: certainly not perfect yet but that's rather how I'd like to be asked for my master password: http://i.imgur.com/s3nSZ.png
12:58:12 <flo-retina> Mic: In the add-on manager window?
12:58:19 <Mic> :P
12:58:22 <flo-retina> Mic: I think I would like a placeholder in the blist window
12:59:05 <flo-retina> that would either let the user unlock the local profile with a master password, or connect as guest (enter the settings for one account to connect right now and forget after disconnecting), or connect as another user (downloading the important parts of the profile from a sync server)
13:00:56 <clokep_work> Sounds fancy. :)
13:01:03 <clokep_work> Mic: I'm glad it works for you now.
13:02:20 <Mic> clokep_work: I don't think it does...
13:04:39 <Mic> Ah, for some reason "omni.ja" wasn't updated while everything else was.
13:05:12 <clokep_work> Mic: That I can't take responsibility for. ;)
13:10:14 <FeuerFliege> Mic: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=397045
13:10:14 <FeuerFliege> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=461455
13:10:36 <flo-retina> Mic: that's a frequent way to fail updates. If only we could figure out why it does that... :(
13:10:38 <Mic> Running as guest is a good idea and synching profiles too but I'd see these as unrelated bugs (I don't like the idea to do this from within my own profile).
13:11:05 <clokep_work> Mic: "running as a guest" would be analogous to "private browsing mode"
13:15:30 <Mic> = Leave no tracks but be able to look into someone's (browsing|chat) history? :P
13:15:50 <flo-retina> Mic: if you are logged in as guest, obviously the logs aren't available
13:16:53 <Mic> Wouldn't spawning a new instance with a new profile be an easier solution?
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13:17:11 <clokep_work> Mic: However it's done doesn't really matter. The concept is what flo-retina was describing.
13:17:22 <flo-retina> Mic:  do you mean technically, or from a user point of view?
13:17:43 <flo-retina> Mic: technically it may be easier to ensure data isolation. But for a user, I think it's a bit confusing to have several instances of the same application.
13:18:50 <Mic> On the other hand: for data isolation users should have different accounts on OS level. Full stop. :P
13:19:30 <flo-retina> Mic: nah, different computers.
13:19:54 <flo-retina> Mic: with separate local networks, and separate ISP subscriptions
13:19:55 <flo-retina> :-P
13:21:54 <Mic> Anyways, you know now how I'd like my password prompt to look like :)
13:23:26 <flo-retina> Mic: sure. It makes sense
13:23:47 <flo-retina> I'm not sure how much work there is to teach that to NSS though :(
13:39:15 <clokep_work> Probably a lot. ;)
13:39:33 <clokep_work> Mic: Yes, you're right about the memory reporters btw, someone fixed it already though.
13:42:08 <flo-retina> clokep_work: someone = me ;)
13:44:18 <clokep_work> That's what I figured, but I didn't remember. :)
13:44:24 <flo-retina> clokep_work: is it important to mention the pref to turn off show nick?
13:45:44 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I think some people might go "I don't want that feature! How do I shut it off?"
13:45:51 <clokep_work> But maybe we should make a list on the wiki of hidden prefs?
13:47:09 <flo-retina> or change the wording. The way it's currently phrased really looks to me like we want users to turn it off
13:49:03 <flo-retina> maybe "We are pretty excited about this cool new feature and hope you will enjoy it, but if you don't it's easy to turn it off by setting "messenger.conversations.showNicks" to false in the advanced configuration editor."
13:51:28 * clokep_work thinks a list on the wiki is a good idea anyway. ;)
13:53:40 <flo-retina> I'm not against it
13:53:54 <flo-retina> but I don't think it blocks the release. The release notes do. :)
13:54:14 <clokep_work> I didn't mean to imply it does.
13:54:22 <Mic> And one for obscure prefs like the loglevel thing ;)
13:54:28 <Mic> scnr
13:55:03 * flo-retina isn't sure what's obscure about loglevel
14:11:42 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Were there any other XMPP fixes for 1.3? (or IRC that people will care about)?
14:11:50 <clokep_work> Oh, the breaking of lines into multiple lines is kind of exciting?
14:12:19 <flo-retina> ah, yes, that's in interesting IRC fix :)
14:12:34 <flo-retina> from JS-XMPP, there's the priority that can now be set
14:12:58 <flo-retina> but... we are still using libpurple for generic XMPP, so actually the line about the legacy auth isn't relevant (it's relevant only for Tb17)
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14:14:36 <clokep_work> Oh, right. :(
14:15:23 <flo-retina> I think we should find a way to add a pref to switch back and forth between libpurple XMPP and JS-XMPP
14:15:44 <flo-retina> or just go ahead and add DNS SRV support with a binary xpcom component
14:16:01 <flo-retina> (I would be ok with that for Ib, but it may be difficult for Tb...)
14:16:15 <Mic> flo-retina: I expected the order of the dot separated pieces to be different.
14:16:34 <Mic> It doesn't really matter..
14:16:38 <flo-retina> Mic: is that about the release notes?
14:17:03 <Mic> No
14:17:33 <flo-retina> then I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about :-S.
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14:19:55 * clokep_work doesn't know either.
14:20:04 <clokep_work> flo-retina: We'd need to support Bonjour too then. ;)
14:20:22 <flo-retina> clokep_work: why?
14:20:44 <flo-retina> is there any shared code between the xmpp prpl and the bonjour prpl?
14:20:57 <flo-retina> They both depend on libxml2, but I think that's it
14:21:33 <clokep_work> Oh, I thought Bonjour == XMPP over link local stuff?
14:23:16 <flo-retina> for the protocol yes, for the implementation in libpurple, I don't think they share much (except the dependency on libxml2)
14:23:30 <flo-retina> I may be wrong though :)
14:23:37 <clokep_work> Ohh. That seems silly.
14:26:10 <Mic> Maybe I should have included an example like "loglevel.irc" vs "irc.loglevel" to make clear what I was talking about.
14:27:08 <flo-retina> Mic: just saying you were still taking about the loglevel thing would have been enough I think :)
14:27:35 <flo-retina> Mic: or you could have said Mook's toy's syntax was obscure :-D
14:28:14 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Looks like you're correct and it doesn't depend on libpurple's xmpp code.
14:31:22 <Mic> Are you talking about enabling JS-XMPP for 1,3 btw? Or is that talk about post-1.3 work?
14:31:30 <Mic> *1.3
14:31:38 <clokep_work> Mic: Post.
14:31:54 <Mic> :)
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14:32:41 <Mic> I was really wondering if it weren't be a bit late to do that for 1.3
14:34:50 <Mic> bye!
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14:35:00 <clokep_work> Mic: As far as I'm concerned the only thing that can go into 1.3 now is bug fixes.
14:36:59 <flo-retina> what can go in 1.3 is mostly https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=sw%3A1.3
14:37:17 <flo-retina> anybody volunteering for bug 1750?
14:37:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1750 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Warning: Use of Mutation Events is deprecated. Use MutationObserver instead.
14:37:59 <flo-retina> clokep_work: is it tonight or tomorrow that you are traveling? I don't remember your schedule :(
14:38:14 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I don't expect you to. :) Tomorrow night.
14:38:46 * clokep_work added bug 1767 to that list
14:38:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1767 maj, --, ---, nobody, NEW, New nightly can't auth with ZNC server
14:39:31 <flo-retina> sure
14:40:29 <flo-retina> and I'm tempted to add a few more JS-XMPP warning fixes (especially the "received stanza for unknown buddy" bogus warnings), but I'm not sure I'll have time
14:45:28 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2065 on bug 1592.
14:45:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1592 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Update the glib version requirements on the website
14:46:31 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Can we commit bug 1638 too? :)
14:46:34 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1638 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, update Instantbird F.A.Q.
14:48:15 <flo-retina> isn't that list of protocols already obsolete?
14:50:22 <clokep_work> It should have been committed for 1.2 then. :P
14:50:27 <clokep_work> I can update it if you want.
14:51:33 <flo-retina> if you care, please do :)
14:51:43 <flo-retina> is there anything else that needs to be added to the FAQ ?
14:52:02 <flo-retina> I think at some point we should add a "My operating system is no longer supported, what's the latest version I can use?"
14:52:46 <flo-retina> we have already EOL'ed Windows 2000 & XP < SP2, OS X 10.4 (and some old linux distributions, but I don't have a clear understanding of the situation there)
14:53:25 <flo-retina> I don't think instantbird ever worked on OS X 10.3
14:54:09 <flo-retina> for OS X 10.4, the last working version is 0.2
14:54:23 <flo-retina> for Win 2000 and XP pre-SP2, it's 1.1
14:54:54 <flo-retina> but maybe we will add that in the FAQ when EOFing OS X 10.5 for Ib 1.4
14:59:26 <clokep_work> flo-retina: That makes sense, but I won't have time to do that for now, but maybe we should file a bug.
15:00:17 <flo-retina> we will do it for 1.4 :)
15:00:24 <flo-retina> we aren't dropping any OS with 1.3 anyway
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15:02:21 <clokep_work> flo-retina: "AIM, Bonjour, Facebook Chat, Gadu-Gadu, Google Talk, Groupwise, ICQ, IRC, MSN, MySpaceIM, Netsoul, Odnoklassniki, QQ, Simple, Twitter, VKontakte, XMPP, Yahoo and Yahoo JAPAN" is that the full list?
15:02:41 <flo-retina> seems to be :)
15:02:47 <flo-retina> it's easy to check with the account wizard ;)
15:06:00 <clokep_work> Touche.
15:22:01 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com cancelled review?(florian@instantbird .org) for attachment 1872 on bug 1638.
15:22:02 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 2066 on bug 1638.
15:22:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1638 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, update Instantbird F.A.Q.
15:33:44 <clokep_work> (For the record, I want that fixed just to get it out of my assigned list...)
15:34:54 <flo-retina> ahah :)
15:35:09 * flo-retina wants it out of his review queue ;)
15:35:50 <clokep_work> Sounds like a match made in heaven. ;)
15:36:13 <flo-retina> and that will also apply to SIPE I guess
15:36:40 <clokep_work> That'll most likely need another iteration.
15:36:42 <flo-retina> especially as you made it 3 times more visible by requesting review on a few attachements that you don't actually want reviewed :-D
15:37:32 <clokep_work> :-D
15:37:36 <clokep_work> I want it out of my review queue too!
15:37:51 <clokep_work> Hmm...I do want review on all three of those acutally.
15:38:12 <clokep_work> Just not on the fourth and fifth patches. ;)
15:44:46 <flo-retina> http://queze.net/goinfre/webrtc-fx-tb-2.png
15:45:27 <clokep_work> flo-retina: So if you keep typing does the video go off window? ;)
15:45:55 <flo-retina> now, the scrollbar is only for the text chat part
15:46:01 <flo-retina> as you can see on the Firefox side ;)
15:46:19 <clokep_work> Ah, so you can! :)
15:50:44 <flo-retina> clokep_work: it will look like this: http://i.minus.com/ibseQlK1f1ezLT.png
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15:53:10 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Looks nice. :)
15:53:37 --> FeuerFliege has joined #instantbird
16:01:50 * clokep_work can't wait to play with it.
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16:05:19 <flo-retina> clokep_work: you want try server builds?
16:05:33 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com denied review for attachment 2057 on bug 1751.
16:05:33 <flo-retina> (I think I'll produce some soon)
16:05:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1751 min, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, No feedback when the /nick command fails
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16:19:38 <flo-retina> I wonder what codecs libpurple supports for they voice/video feature on XMPP/Linux.
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16:24:10 <aleth> flo-retina: That looks great :)
16:35:25 <clokep_work> flo-retina: https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/vv
16:35:47 <flo-retina> how did you guess which page I was reading?
16:36:18 <aleth> Show nick system message variation https://i.minus.com/jbeOr2TvRRCjnR.png
16:37:21 <flo-retina> aleth: you removed the background?
16:37:28 <aleth> flo-retina: Yes, that's all.
16:37:37 <flo-retina> it's the border I would like to remove
16:37:52 <aleth> I tried that... it looks odd.
16:37:59 <flo-retina> I'm wondering if we could do something looking like the author of a message (with 2 rounded corners instead of 4)
16:38:18 <flo-retina> and maybe not only for system messages
16:38:35 <aleth> Or maybe just less rounded corners
16:38:46 <clokep_work> flo-retina: :) Figured you had found it already...
16:39:33 <flo-retina> clokep_work: what I'm wondering right now is: is there any point in implementing voice & video chat in Instantbird if it can only work between JS-XMPP instances (Ib & Tb)
16:39:55 <flo-retina> WebRTC doesn't have a single codec in common with gmail / gtalk :(
16:41:05 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Does it require h.264?
16:41:31 <clokep_work> flo-retina: It probably isn't really worth it then, no. Do they auto-negotiate a codec?
16:41:39 <flo-retina> https://developers.google.com/talk/call_signaling#Video
16:41:58 <flo-retina> clokep_work: we could maybe get audio calls to work between Ib and gtalk
16:42:21 <clokep_work> :( That's disappointing.
16:42:37 <flo-retina> (we have compatible codecs, although they suck a bit (approximately the same quality as a phone line))
16:43:00 <flo-retina> I'm trying to find if there are other open source XMPP clients that would support VP8
16:43:13 <flo-retina> would be nice to have at least one non-JS-XMPP client to test with
16:43:24 <clokep_work> Right.
16:43:42 <clokep_work> I guess we would need https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799318 to be fixed?
16:44:13 <flo-retina> wouldn't help
16:44:20 <flo-retina> that's for decoding, we need encoding.
16:45:00 <clokep_work> Ah. :(
16:46:07 <flo-retina> + that bug is mostly BenB arguing about which bug to use ;)
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17:14:16 <flo-retina> The Jingle application format defined herein is designed to meet the following requirements: [...] Map these parameters to Session Description Protocol (SDP; see RFC 4566 [3]) to enable interoperability." http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0167.html#reqs
17:14:20 <flo-retina> That's encouraging :)
17:21:22 <flo-retina> for audio, it's not too bad: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0266.html#codecs
17:21:54 <flo-retina> We have G.711 (which is required) and Opus (which is described as "not widely implemented, but 'the codec of the future').
17:22:11 <flo-retina> http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0176.html is another very relevant spec.
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17:44:37 <Mic> I had tried this on the extension before and didn't like the look of it either. http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today/#m409
17:44:58 <aleth> flo: fwiw, doesn't skype use VP8?
17:49:55 <Kaishi> aleth: skype just got a new codec
17:54:56 <clokep_work> aleth: SkypeKit handles it's own encoding/decoding, I think.
17:54:59 <clokep_work> Kaishi: It did? When?
17:55:16 <Kaishi> very recently.
17:55:36 <Kaishi> it may be using the same codec as the new codec used by mumble
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17:55:54 <Kaishi> http://blogs.skype.com/en/2012/09/skype_and_a_new_audio_codec.html
17:56:06 <Kaishi> Opus is the name
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17:56:15 <Kaishi> and it's the one used by mumble too, just checked
17:56:24 <Kaishi> it's open source as I recall
17:57:08 <flo-retina> Kaishi: Opus is an audio codec
17:57:14 <flo-retina> Kaishi: we support Opus too.
17:57:46 <Kaishi> okay, now I feel dumb, sorry.  I hear skype and I think audio, wasn't even thinking about VP8 being a video codec
17:57:47 <Kaishi> I apologize >_<
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17:58:04 <flo-retina> no problem :)
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17:58:11 <Kaishi> there's audio and video support coming to instantbird?
17:58:23 <flo-retina> Kaishi: not sure, but we were discussing it
17:58:32 <Kaishi> ah
17:58:40 <flo-retina> (I think yes :))
17:58:44 <Kaishi> well if it happens, I'm sure it will be welcome :)
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17:58:56 <flo-retina> but I prefer not giving a confident "yes" until it actually works.
17:59:07 <flo-retina> and it may be in several months
17:59:07 <Kaishi> agreed on that method
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17:59:29 <flo-retina> and if it's not compatible with any other client, it's disappointing
17:59:47 <Kaishi> one of my hobbies is beer making, and if someone asks if it's good, I'd rather just let them try it themselves :) but at a party last weekend, we did go through 4 gallons of it >_>
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18:25:59 <clokep_work> Kaishi: Ah, yes they have their own codec. :)
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18:26:18 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I'd really like that to be "yes". :) Might be a kind of bad user experience...but...
18:26:37 <clokep_work> We could pref it off? ;)
18:27:26 <flo-retina> clokep_work: I don't think we would need to pref it off
18:27:50 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Does Mozilla list their supported codecs anywhere?
18:27:51 <flo-retina> clokep_work: we could just restrict it to Ib<->Ib
18:28:24 <flo-retina> clokep_work: opus, PCMU and PCMA for audio; VP8 for video
18:28:28 <flo-retina> it's listed in the SDP offer ;)
18:30:04 <aleth> Ib<->Ib, Ib<->Tb already isn't bad...
18:30:25 <aleth> Minor variation https://i.minus.com/jbgQsJJXRKe4k.png
18:32:00 <aleth> Empathy supports Jingle/ICE for SIP/XMPP/Gtalk
18:32:34 <aleth> empathy-empathy uses ogg theora, for gtalk it uses h264
18:32:59 <clokep_work> Apparently a bunch of protocols just use raw SIP for voice/video...
18:33:04 <flo-retina> isn't empathy supposed to support VP8?
18:33:07 <clokep_work> Could be a win by implementing SIP itself then...
18:33:09 <flo-retina> or is that ubuntu-only?
18:33:51 <aleth> If telepathy supports it, empathy should too
18:34:26 <flo-retina> it's quite possible it just uses whatever the gstreamer installed on the system supports
18:34:56 <aleth> It certainly doesn't implement the codecs
18:37:55 <aleth> This padge doesn't list the actual codecs http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/
18:38:12 <aleth> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Protocols%20Support
18:39:22 <aleth> No mention of vp8 https://live.gnome.org/Empathy/FAQ#Which_video_codec_do_I_need.3F
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18:47:41 <clokep_work> I think some of those just use whatever gstreamer supports, yes.
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18:50:18 <aleth> clokep_work: They have websites where it is hard to find any answers...
18:53:26 <flo-retina> it's sad that my phone currently has much more bandwidth than my cable connection :(
18:54:32 <aleth> flo-retina: You're not having any luck with that ISP :-/
18:54:55 <flo-retina> clokep_work: isn't this something that I shouldn't see? "NickServ: This nick is owned by someone else. Please choose another.\nNickServ: (If this is your nick, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY password.)\nNickServ: Password accepted - you are now recognized."
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18:55:42 <flo-retina> aleth: yeah, I keep wondering if I need to subscribe to a dsl plan for a backup solution ;)
18:57:47 <aleth> changed padding and less border-radius: https://i.minus.com/jIMb1r6bVDTiv.png
18:58:25 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Was that on sign on?
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18:59:52 <aleth> well, that's about the spectrum of options without changing the look more drastically I think...
19:00:26 * Mook_as finds the border around the nick distracting
19:01:10 <Mook_as> for the ones on non-system messages, anyway
19:03:21 <Mic> aleth: try different border-radius for top left/bottom right and the other corners.
19:04:05 <Mic> Maybe something like 5px for top-left+bottom-right and .. 2px or 3px for the other.
19:04:06 <aleth> Mic: I tried something like that and it just looked wrong inside the message bubble
19:04:22 <Mic> This will definitely break with different font sizes though.
19:04:51 <clokep_work> Can't you use em then?
19:05:18 <clokep_work> flo-retina: I mean, you sohuldn't see that. But we only wait one second before displaying that. Is your network really slow right now?
19:05:24 * clokep_work sees you complaining about your ISP. :P
19:05:53 <aleth> clokep_work: I agree, it probably just missed the timeout.
19:06:31 <clokep_work> Maybe 2 or 3 seconds is more reasonable?
19:07:32 <Mic> Bot bad, imo: http://i.imgur.com/eVOlZ.png
19:07:53 <Mic> *Not
19:08:33 <flo-retina> clokep_work: "flo-retina: Was that on sign on?" I think it was after rebooting the modem (and I was pleasantly surprised to see that it rejoined automatically the password protected channel I was in)
19:09:29 <clokep_work> flo-retina: :) I'm glad someone is using that feature!
19:11:11 <flo-retina> clokep_work: the timestamps are:http://pastebin.instantbird.com/97813
19:11:38 <aleth> Mic: I suspect that's a bit took eccentric for a default though...
19:11:40 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Well they COULD be more than a second apart.
19:11:49 <Mic> aleth: that's border-radius: 5px 2px; by the way
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19:13:02 <Mic> It's reusing the shape from the nick in the bubble corner and softens the other corners by adding a small borderradius
19:13:14 <Mic> I think it goes well with Bubbles
19:14:00 <flo-retina> what does it look like without the border and with more padding?
19:14:18 <flo-retina> and why is there a 1px margin between the message author and the main bubble border?
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19:15:40 <Mic> flo-retina: I don't know, I suspect the contrast between the color might be too low in some cases.
19:15:53 <Mic> *colors
19:17:22 <Mic> The top left main bubble border with the nick section always looked like this by the way
19:17:37 <aleth> flo-retina: It's subtle, but maybe we want subtle, idk... https://i.minus.com/ibai8iMTKfWdz3.png
19:18:03 <flo-retina> Mic: "The top left main bubble border with the nick section always looked like this by the way" it's horribly ugly. I don't see that on Mac.
19:18:47 <aleth> Mic: That gap looks broken to me too. Are you on a nonstandard zoom level?
19:19:14 <Mic> No
19:20:09 <Mic> I suspect it's using the same border radius for the main bubble and the nick area
19:20:44 <aleth> But why is it broken only on WIndows?
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19:22:10 <Mic> gtg
19:22:24 * aleth has an idea
19:23:29 <Mic> Here's a larger image by the way: http://i.imgur.com/8rXOh.png
19:23:37 <Mic> I like it.
19:23:44 <aleth> No, it's not due to the font as far as I can tell.
19:23:52 <Mic> I
19:23:58 <aleth> Mic: the 1-pixel gap?
19:24:19 <Mic> Zoom in and look where the gap appears.
19:26:12 <Mic> It's using the same border-radius for both elements. That's the cause. The fix is to reduce border radius of the inner one. I'm really convinced of that.
19:26:30 <Mic> bye
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19:26:46 <aleth> Hmm, could be... as long as that then doesn't break it elsewhere...
19:29:30 <flo-retina> http://i.minus.com/iQM5VRMHFvNAT.png
19:33:40 <flo-retina> I like the way nicks look on Mic's http://i.imgur.com/8rXOh.png but it seems to make a lot more visible the misbalanced spacings that I already disliked but aren't very visible currently.
19:35:43 <aleth> flo-retina: Similar but symmetric https://i.minus.com/j5X3BTH2IDOQj.png
19:36:34 <flo-retina> which nick are you showing there?
19:36:55 <aleth> awahlig?
19:37:07 <aleth> And those two system message ones of course
19:37:56 <flo-retina> what about dropping the borders of the 2 system message ones, and displaying the border for the left nick, and the background like for a message nick in the other one, only on hover, and with a transition (like Dark does)
19:38:23 <aleth> umm... I think you should try it ;)
19:38:34 <aleth> Probably faster than trying to explain :P
19:39:01 <flo-retina> pfff
19:39:10 <aleth> I don't actually mind the border on the system message ones now I've set the border colour to the background colour and adjusted the padding a bit
19:39:30 <flo-retina> I dislike these borders :-P
19:41:37 <aleth> The trouble without borders is left nicks
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19:42:54 <flo-retina> so you really didn't understand what I said at all?
19:43:14 <aleth> Not the last part.
19:43:39 <flo-retina> ok, so let me try again: For the left nick, display as on your screenshot when the nick is hovered. Display without the border otherwise.
19:43:46 <aleth> I understood about borders-just-for-left-nicks, sure.
19:44:09 <flo-retina> For the other in status-message-not-left nick, display as in a regular message when hovered. Display without the background color when not hovered.
19:45:56 <aleth> Ah, OK.
19:46:26 <flo-retina> and for the hovered/not hovered transitions, take the css transition from the Dark theme (ie use the same transition time)
19:47:01 <aleth> That smaller font size looks a bit odd when there is no background or border.
19:47:53 <aleth> Though maybe it's just different.
19:48:40 <flo-retina> what I'm trying to do is reducing the visual noise
19:49:15 <aleth> Yes. Mook_as was right that removing the border (in normal messages) helps with that
19:50:11 <aleth> Though it also can lead to a kind of unfortunate effect when you have eg green on red 
19:50:43 <flo-retina> there's still a background
19:50:47 <aleth> I was going to experiment with a border that was just a _little_ bit darker than the background, but those lightness values are hardcoded
19:51:47 <flo-retina> heh, you don't want to mess with that (except if you have plenty of time ;))
19:51:59 <aleth> That's what I thought ;)
19:52:21 <aleth> Looks like someone spent some time with a complicated spreadsheet at some point...
19:52:49 <aleth> the colour contrast thing -> https://i.minus.com/j0xEkqPBrStdb.png
19:53:36 <flo-retina> right, that's ugly :(
19:53:48 <aleth> The border does help prevent that.
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20:02:56 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Half the stuff in that email is like "Oh this is a little thing, but can you add <something that takes an insane amount of work for little gain>." :(
20:03:12 <flo-retina> he wants about:config! :)
20:03:40 <flo-retina> but otherwise, he just wants skype, file transfer, voice & video. That's easy, right? :
20:03:41 <flo-retina> )
20:04:25 <EionRobb> did someone say FT? :P
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20:10:26 <clokep_work> EionRobb is trolling our mailing list now too...
20:10:42 <EionRobb> lol
20:13:00 <clokep_work> Speaking of mailing lists. What does it take to switch from Google Groups to our new mailing list? :-D
20:15:10 <clokep_work> flo-retina: He also wants some crazy IT mode thing that sounds like a great extension idea. :P
20:16:24 <flo-retina> I didn't understand that part
20:16:40 <flo-retina> "What does it take to switch from Google Groups to our new mailing list?" probably almost nothing
20:17:03 <flo-retina> are we all subscribed to the mailing list? (is team AT instantbird.org subscribed?)
20:18:47 <clokep_work> I think it is, yes.
20:18:53 * clokep_work checks.
20:19:57 <clokep_work> team@ is on support.instantbird, but not dev.chat.
20:20:15 <clokep_work> I could add it or add individual's email address (which should work better if people want to change how they get mail, etc.)
20:22:47 <clokep_work> (Or I can just add team@...)
20:23:11 <clokep_work> The only other thing to do is to email the Google Group list and let them know
20:23:34 <flo-retina> it may be better to add the individual emails in both cases, as otherwise we will still have broken reply-to: headers from the google group :-/
20:23:45 <clokep_work> I agree.
20:24:01 <clokep_work> Isn't (active) team@ just aleth Mic Even you and me?
20:24:19 <flo-retina> seems right
20:25:48 <clokep_work> OK, I think I have everyone's address.
20:28:45 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Do you want me to make that change to both of them? I'll make all those people unmoderated this way too.
20:29:48 <flo-retina> sounds good to me
20:29:58 * clokep_work needs to find Even's email...
20:31:43 <clokep_work> Got it. :)
20:34:19 <clokep_work> Ah the list is acutally unmoderated from subscribers. Just unsubscribed emails are moderated.
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20:54:48 <instantbot> New Core - General bug 1774 filed by unghost@gmail.com.
20:54:49 <instantbot> unghost@gmail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 2067 on bug 1774.
20:54:50 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1774 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Localize the VKontakte/Odnoklassniki chat names
20:55:27 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Au revoir)
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20:55:41 * ChanServ sets mode +h aleth 
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20:59:21 * clokep_work doesn' tknow if he should dup that bug or r+ it. :(
21:01:24 <clokep_work> (Well r- it, actually.)
21:02:26 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1774 to DUPLICATE of bug 1769.
21:02:29 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1774 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, Localize the VKontakte/Odnoklassniki chat names
21:02:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1769 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Make names of protocols localizable
21:04:19 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 2059 on bug 1769.
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21:15:20 <clokep_work> unghost: Do you agree it doesn't make sense to translate "IRC" and "XMPP"?
21:15:22 --> flo has joined #instantbird
21:15:22 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
21:15:58 <flo> so now I saw NickServ tabs for both freenode and moznet, after restarting for an update
21:16:00 <unghost> clokep_work, yes. 
21:16:13 <unghost> no need to translate them
21:16:16 <flo> there's probably something broken over there
21:16:18 <flo> :(
21:17:35 <flo> clokep_work: I lol'ed @ "I really don't want people putting "Jabber" instead of "XMPP"" Reminded me of a totally unproductive debate in a BMO bug a while ago :)
21:21:25 <Mook_as> the only solution is to put neither :p
21:22:30 <clokep_work> flo: Yes. A lot of people seemed to care about it for some reason. (o_O)
21:23:14 <clokep_work> Thanks unghost. :)
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21:25:21 <flo> clokep_work: it was totally bikesheding ;)
21:30:42 <clokep_work> :)
21:30:48 * clokep_work is going home.
21:31:00 <clokep_work> Well first I'm going to go see if they have the new Nokia Lumia in the AT&T store. ;)
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21:44:29 <-- unghost has quit (Quit: Ухожу я от вас (xchat 2.4.5 или старше))
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22:55:40 <flo> clokep: is it expected that I received a welcome message for dev-chat, a "You have been unsubscribed" from support-instantbird on team@ib.org, and not a welcome message for support-instantbird on my own email address?
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23:21:26 <clokep> flo: You were already signed up for support-instantbird, I didn't sign you up again.
23:21:32 <clokep> (With your gmail address)
23:22:01 <flo-retina> ah, ok
23:22:03 <flo-retina> I didn't know that
23:22:17 <flo-retina> so i guess I should move the email redirection for contact @ ib now? :)
23:24:00 <clokep> Yes please! :-D
23:26:39 <flo-retina> what should it point to?
23:28:10 <clokep> flo-retina: 	support-instantbird@lists.mozilla.org
23:28:16 <clokep> (https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-instantbird for reference...)
23:29:22 <flo-retina> done
23:29:30 <flo-retina> it should work in ~5 minutes
23:30:59 <clokep> :)
23:31:15 <clokep> Thanks!
23:31:57 <flo-retina> we have very few @instantbird.com emails
23:33:21 <flo-retina> basically there's only flo@ florian@ idechix@ and a few boring ones (root, admin, webmaster, postmaster)
23:33:40 <flo-retina> (I looked as I was wondering if I also needed to change a contact @ ib.com address, but it never existed)
23:34:18 * clokep has an @instantbird.org
23:34:27 <flo-retina> I know that
23:34:35 <flo-retina> there are lots of @ib.org addresses
23:34:39 <clokep> I didn't know there were .com ones too! :P
23:34:42 <flo-retina> including many pointless ones
23:34:58 <flo-retina> clokep: the .com just redirect to the same address ending in .org ;)
23:35:20 <clokep> Hahah.
23:40:46 <flo-retina> Good night :)
23:40:57 <clokep> Bye!