#instantbird log on 10 09 2012

All times are UTC.

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01:02:44 <instant-buildbot> build #313 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/313
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01:35:09 <instant-buildbot> build #295 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/295
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02:30:57 <instant-buildbot> build #655 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/655
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04:19:58 <instant-buildbot> build #736 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/736
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12:55:04 <clokep_work> Good morning.
13:04:38 <florian> hello :)
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13:10:33 <florian> how do you all feel about adopting the rapid release schedule, and forgetting about releasing?
13:10:53 <florian> can we fully automate that?
13:12:31 <florian> (I'm trying to think about a way to release Instantbird from comm-central)
13:15:52 <clokep_work> florian: I'd be OK w/ that.
13:15:54 <clokep_work> If we can automate it.
13:15:56 <aleth> Unless you mean the full aurora-beta-merge approach, and assuming it boils down to "declare the nightly ready every x weeks", couldn't one do the automating first and then figure out the frequency later?
13:16:16 <florian> aleth: we can't do that. The rapid release cycle implies aurora and beta
13:16:58 <florian> the aurora time is the string freeze (ie localizers are guaranteed to have 6 weeks of string freeze for each release)
13:17:05 <florian> then beta is the first localized test builds
13:17:32 <clokep_work> I alos like that it would let us share strings better w/ mozilla.
13:17:39 <florian> I honestly don't like the beta phase, as in the case of Instantbird there would mostly happen nothing during that time
13:18:04 <florian> but releasing the beta right away would be strange, wouldn't it? (we would always release instantbirds based on beta geckos)
13:18:25 <aleth> That was what I was getting at, that we wouldn't have much happening in the beta phase
13:19:02 <florian> my other worry is: how many build slaves (and how much server storage) do we need for such a model?
13:19:43 <aleth> And are we fast enough for tricky features to be ready/tested 6 weeks after landing
13:20:09 <florian> aleth: for things like the account import wizard (for example), it's landing pref'ed off
13:20:37 <aleth> Pref'ing off might not work for every large change
13:20:53 <florian> aleth: we can also decided to keep the aurora and beta builders running, but to not do any final release during some cycles
13:21:11 <florian> aleth: it won't work for some change
13:21:11 <florian> s
13:21:11 <aleth> (Playing devils advocate here, as of course releasing more often would be nice for most things)
13:21:35 <florian> but in the past, in most cases when things got very far from a releasable state, it was because we handled landing poorly
13:21:45 <clokep_work> florian: Can we use try for some of it? :-D
13:21:49 * clokep_work needs to go.
13:21:50 <clokep_work> Ciao.
13:22:02 <florian> JS-IRC and JS-XMPP both landed completely unpolished, and should have included a way to pref them off (or at least a configure switch)
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13:22:13 <aleth> Or can one skip the nightly->aurora merge for 6 weeks if one needs to?
13:22:46 <florian> aleth: we won't skip it if we are storing the code in comm-central
13:22:53 <aleth> Ah right.
13:23:19 <florian> so if we are fully on comm-central, we don't decide the merge times
13:23:26 <florian> what we decide is which buildbot jobs we want to run
13:24:19 <aleth> But if I understand correctly, build infrastructure itself is not provided
13:24:50 <florian> not by Mozilla at least
13:25:12 <aleth> So I guess that's the main issue, whether the build slaves can handle it...
13:25:23 <florian> no, how many we need to buy ;).
13:25:25 <aleth> Seeing as even 64 bit builds are not possible atm
13:25:28 <aleth> ah :D
13:25:32 <florian> our current mac slave can't build Moz17
13:25:49 <florian> for 64 bit builds, there's no slave problem, it's a server storage issue
13:26:19 <aleth> That planned migration that never happened?
13:26:32 <florian> yeah
13:27:14 <aleth> Are there any issues with rapid release from c-c now TB itself is no longer on rapid release?
13:27:32 <florian> tb is still on rapid release until 17 is out
13:27:41 <florian> and I don't understand the rest of the question
13:27:46 * aleth is still confused about what will happen after that point
13:28:06 <aleth> So that's why the question might not make any sense ;)
13:28:47 <florian> aleth: things will continue as usual on comm-central, comm-aurora and comm-beta. The beta->release merge will however happen only once every 42 weeks instead of every 6 weeks
13:29:20 <florian> (I typed "42 years" there instead of "42 weeks"; fixed it before sending. That would have been loooooooooong cycles :))
13:29:38 <aleth> VESR :)
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13:30:15 <aleth> So no complicated backporting, just one release a year and nothing inbetween?
13:30:43 <florian> just security updates (and maybe small bug fixes in between)
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13:31:06 <aleth> OK, that makes sense, thanks.
13:31:41 <florian> if we are fine with releasing Instantbird every 42 weeks, we can just copy what comm-central does. (I assumed that was too long for Instantbird, but maybe I'm wrong on that?)
13:32:44 <aleth> Seems a bit long to me too, it would be nicer to get the many small improvments out there faster than once a year
13:33:15 <aleth> (e ven if then not every release has a "killer feature")
13:33:26 <florian> releasing every 6 weeks or every 42 weeks would be easy
13:33:38 <aleth> but I guess it depends on whether the amount of work a release is for you in particular can be brought down
13:34:08 <florian> I think if we release every 6 weeks, that will put enough pressure on us to fully automate it.
13:34:58 <florian> releasing no-visible-changes versions every 6 weeks could be annoying
13:35:12 <florian> would be nicer if we can port the silent update system from Firefox
13:35:45 <aleth> I had naively assumed we would get that free with some gecko update :S
13:36:01 <florian> I think we will get it mostly free
13:36:36 <aleth> otherwise I agree, forcing users to visibly update every 6 weeks for very little is not great
13:36:36 <florian> but we probably have to tweak the default values of some prefs, add a few more files in the package manifest list, and test it for a while
13:37:16 <florian> if we can make the update completely silent, I think we shouldn't bother with finding a shorter than 6 weeks release cycle
13:37:31 <aleth> Why would we want shorter than 6 weeks?
13:37:40 <aleth> Because of the beta phase?
13:37:43 <florian> I meant longer
13:37:53 <aleth> Ah OK ;)
13:37:57 <florian> well, I actually meant "slower" and typed "shorter" instead :(
13:38:43 <florian> and we will need to get serious about unit tests if we are going to ship to end users something every 6 weeks (there's no way we can dog food the builds from all channels ourselves)
13:39:13 <aleth> Realistically we can only dogfood nightlies
13:39:46 <florian> I think some of us could dogfood 2 channels
13:40:02 <florian> like using a localized beta on a work machine, and nightly on a personal machine
13:40:25 <aleth> At the cost of reducing the amount of testing the nightly gets
13:40:38 <florian> sure
13:40:50 <aleth> (seeing that most IB bug reports so far come from devs)
13:40:52 <florian> well, we need more users ;)
13:41:51 <aleth> Yup, on the other hand the screen reader users that upgraded to nightlies to get the recent a11y fixes would probably have been happy(er) to switch to a beta instead
13:42:19 <florian> how many hands do we need to count them?
13:42:33 <aleth> Hard to tell, but there were some tweets
13:42:43 <aleth> Which was more than I had expected at least ;)
13:43:30 <aleth> Anyhow, just as an example. In the end IB as a whole doesn't have that many users of course...
13:44:11 <florian> yeah... But the trend on http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/last2years.php is interesting for the last few weeks
13:44:16 * aleth checks stats
13:44:23 <aleth> Wow, higher than at the last release peak :)
13:44:31 <florian> just what I was going to say ;)
13:45:06 <dew> I've been advertising :P
13:45:27 <florian> dew: some ads were sent inside MoCo last week :-P
13:46:55 <dew> yeah we really need to get mozilla people on IB
13:47:09 <dew> convert the chatzilla hold-outs!
13:47:23 <florian> aleth: but still, that's really few users (compared to Mozilla products). If we really want to have a product used by millions of people, we will need to find a better marketing solution than the current plan (the current plan being "do nothing" :-D). Or we can also decide that the product being used by only a few thousand people is fine with us, as long as they are happy and we love the product.
13:47:41 <florian> dew: go ahead, convert them :).
13:50:26 <florian> dew: you can also play with Pidgin users who don't use file transfer (that's all of them, file transfer is frequently broken in Pidgin :-P).
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13:51:15 <aleth> florian: If we wanted millions of users we would also have to find a way to provide the corresponding support etc...
13:51:45 <florian> aleth: is support really a problem?
13:51:59 <florian> aleth: if users can help each other, and become contributors, it's perfect! ;)
13:52:09 <aleth> True :)
13:52:28 <florian> aleth: the best way to provide great support is to reduce the amount of things that annoy lots of people
13:53:23 * aleth waits for EionRobb to say something
13:53:47 <florian> the frequency of support requests we got for 0.1.2+, 0.2 and 1.0/1.1/1.2 is approximately the same. http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/ shows that not from the same user count though.
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13:54:33 <florian> aleth: he isn't around. I checked before mentioning file transfer, I didn't want the conversation to deviate to a basic ft troll :).
13:58:36 <aleth> The steady growth in user numbers is nice to see as it's almost purely word-of-mouth
14:01:20 <aleth> which means they really like it :)
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14:38:01 <florian> "Instantbird encountered a serious error and cannot start, we apologize for the inconvenience. Description: The file "instantbird.xpt" is missing or corrupted." hmm
14:39:10 <florian> bah, we require libpurple at startup: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/modules/ibCore.jsm#33 :(
14:39:18 <florian> s/libpurple/purpexpcom/
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15:36:43 <florian> is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799504 something we fixed recently?
15:38:38 <dew> we need our bot to have the summary
15:39:31 <florian> dew: we could invite firebot, but last time it was tried, it argued with instantbot :-/
15:40:00 <florian> dew: [Bug 799504] New: Long retweets are cut off after 140 characters
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15:44:40 <dew> I know I just did that in #maildev thanks though :)
15:44:55 <florian> yeah, I saw... too late ;)
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15:54:25 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1724 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
15:54:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1724 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rename the instantbird/ folder to im/
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16:30:31 <clokep_work> florian: Yes, we fixed that recently.
16:30:37 <clokep_work> It was one of the ones you just ported, I think.
16:30:53 <florian> should we nominate it for comm-beta?
16:31:03 <florian> or does it just doesn't matter?
16:31:09 <clokep_work> bug 1672
16:31:12 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1672 nor, --, 1.3, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Truncated RTs don't always show the full original tweet
16:31:26 <florian> I didn't really looked at what I ported yesterday. Just looked at whether it seemed dangerous or not, and the impact on localizable strings
16:31:33 <clokep_work> I think it doesn't matter personally, I'd just dup that bug to 799068 (or mark it fixed and depends on that other bug).
16:32:43 <florian> ok, would be nice to still paste the link to the changeset though
16:35:04 <clokep_work> I'll do that.
16:35:06 <clokep_work> Just give me a bit. :)
16:52:29 <florian> clokep_work: thanks!
16:52:57 <florian> the patch seems trivial, I think we could take it to Tb17 on beta (I don't really care all that much, but I suspect some people may care about it)
16:54:02 <clokep_work> florian: We possibly should.
16:54:10 <clokep_work> Especially since it'll be TB 17 then?
16:54:18 <clokep_work> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799509 is WONTFIX, right?
16:54:20 <florian> comm-beta is Tb17
16:55:07 <florian> that's the one about copying the tweet url when clicking the time stamp?
16:55:23 <florian> if so, phrased like that it's wontfix/invalid/whatever.
16:55:38 <florian> but there may be a real frustration somewhere. I think the context menu of tweets isn't discoverable enough
16:55:56 <florian> people likely expect some kind of button or something that they could click when hovering a tweet.
16:56:08 <florian> would be nice to have a way to do actions on tweets without relying on the context menu
16:56:19 <florian> and that may also help for accessibility (not sure)
16:56:45 <clokep_work> Right.
16:59:40 <clokep_work> florian: FWIW The stuff in bug 1724 seems fine. :)
16:59:44 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1724 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rename the instantbird/ folder to im/
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16:59:55 <florian> clokep_work: cool
17:00:12 <florian> clokep_work: should we take that in instantbird's repository? soonish?
17:00:42 <florian> or maybe take it, but wait for the changeset to be ready to go in comm-central too? (so that we don't land that if we aren't really landing in c-c)
17:03:03 <clokep_work> florian: I agree that we probably don't want to commit it until after we're in c-c.
17:03:11 <clokep_work> No reason to needlessly move files around.
17:06:41 <clokep_work> (But that we should take it in Instantbird repo too.)
17:08:51 <florian> and should c-c have the move too, or should we use hg convert to rename instantbird/ to im/ in the whole history? ;)
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17:09:30 <clokep_work> hg-convert probably makes more sense there.
17:09:52 <clokep_work> Do I also remembering something about using hg convert to get the back history of chat/ that wasn't committed?
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17:14:22 <florian> I still want to do something like that, yes :)
17:15:50 * clokep_work still kind of wants the old SVN commits to be converted to the real author. :P
17:16:18 <clokep_work> Did you ever look at the experiments repo clean up thing. I kind of think we should just wait until I have a user repo and then I can push the irc-js extension there.
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17:26:34 <florian> clokep_work: and maybe request user repos for Mic and aleth too?
17:26:55 <florian> clokep_work: I think the permissions required to have a user repo are the same as the ones requires for pushing to try, and that requires only one voucher
17:27:41 <clokep_work> florian: Yes, probably. We could put the sync stuff in Mic's then. Does aleth have anything he'd want to put up there? Or do we just want him to have try-access? :)
17:28:08 <florian> I think he could make good use of try access
17:28:17 <florian> but he would have to install hg and create real patches for that ;)
17:31:17 <clokep_work> Probably. :)
17:31:41 <clokep_work> We should probably split IRC into a submodule, by the way, and make aleth a peer.
17:36:44 <florian> I think we already agreed on that.
17:36:57 <clokep_work> Is it just a matter of changing the wiki page? I'll do it now? :p
17:37:46 <florian> yes. But I think you need the new peer's approval before listing him ;)
17:38:01 <clokep_work> Probably.
17:38:11 * clokep_work waits for alet h to wake up. :)
17:41:06 * clokep_work wonders if we should ask glob to set up the bugzilla components that we'll want, even though we haven't done the BIO -> BMO merge yet...
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20:41:13 <Mic> Hi!
20:41:24 <Mook_as> Hi!
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21:50:42 <flo> all the articles I've seen that talk about the additional chat protocols add-on have a link to instantbird :)
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