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00:38:39 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 00:50:20 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 00:50:26 <-- wesj has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 00:50:54 <-- clokep_work has quit (Input/output error) 01:02:44 <instant-buildbot> build #313 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/313 01:33:49 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 01:35:09 <instant-buildbot> build #295 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/295 01:37:01 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 01:46:58 --> clokep_work has joined #instantbird 01:46:58 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep_work 01:50:54 --> wesj has joined #instantbird 01:56:59 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout) 02:02:52 <-- wesj has quit (Quit: wesj) 02:02:59 --> wesj has joined #instantbird 02:05:36 --> mconley has joined 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has joined #instantbird 04:11:50 --> Mook has joined #instantbird 04:19:58 <instant-buildbot> build #736 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/736 04:23:30 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 04:49:35 --> jb has joined #instantbird 05:05:05 <-- EionRobb has quit (Quit: Leaving.) 05:35:25 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout) 05:53:17 <-- Mook has quit (Quit: Mook) 05:55:16 --> barlas has joined #instantbird 06:01:43 <instant-buildbot> build #643 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/643 06:57:44 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 07:00:58 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 07:08:59 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 07:10:47 <-- flo has quit (Ping timeout) 07:11:09 --> deltafalcon has joined 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10:24:53 <-- florian has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 10:24:56 --> flo-retina has joined #instantbird 10:25:04 * flo-retina is now known as florian 10:36:56 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 10:42:03 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 11:23:02 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 11:25:36 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 11:31:14 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 11:34:53 --> Optimizer1 has joined #instantbird 12:26:37 <-- Even1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 12:33:29 <-- Even has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 12:33:38 --> Even has joined #instantbird 12:33:38 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 12:51:42 --> clokep_work has joined #instantbird 12:51:42 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep_work 12:55:04 <clokep_work> Good morning. 13:04:38 <florian> hello :) 13:06:37 <-- aleth has quit (Ping timeout) 13:06:49 --> aleth has joined #instantbird 13:06:49 * ChanServ sets mode +h aleth 13:10:33 <florian> how do you all feel about adopting the rapid release schedule, and forgetting about releasing? 13:10:53 <florian> can we fully automate that? 13:12:31 <florian> (I'm trying to think about a way to release Instantbird from comm-central) 13:15:52 <clokep_work> florian: I'd be OK w/ that. 13:15:54 <clokep_work> If we can automate it. 13:15:56 <aleth> Unless you mean the full aurora-beta-merge approach, and assuming it boils down to "declare the nightly ready every x weeks", couldn't one do the automating first and then figure out the frequency later? 13:16:16 <florian> aleth: we can't do that. The rapid release cycle implies aurora and beta 13:16:58 <florian> the aurora time is the string freeze (ie localizers are guaranteed to have 6 weeks of string freeze for each release) 13:17:05 <florian> then beta is the first localized test builds 13:17:32 <clokep_work> I alos like that it would let us share strings better w/ mozilla. 13:17:39 <florian> I honestly don't like the beta phase, as in the case of Instantbird there would mostly happen nothing during that time 13:18:04 <florian> but releasing the beta right away would be strange, wouldn't it? (we would always release instantbirds based on beta geckos) 13:18:25 <aleth> That was what I was getting at, that we wouldn't have much happening in the beta phase 13:19:02 <florian> my other worry is: how many build slaves (and how much server storage) do we need for such a model? 13:19:43 <aleth> And are we fast enough for tricky features to be ready/tested 6 weeks after landing 13:20:09 <florian> aleth: for things like the account import wizard (for example), it's landing pref'ed off 13:20:37 <aleth> Pref'ing off might not work for every large change 13:20:53 <florian> aleth: we can also decided to keep the aurora and beta builders running, but to not do any final release during some cycles 13:21:11 <florian> aleth: it won't work for some change 13:21:11 <florian> s 13:21:11 <aleth> (Playing devils advocate here, as of course releasing more often would be nice for most things) 13:21:35 <florian> but in the past, in most cases when things got very far from a releasable state, it was because we handled landing poorly 13:21:45 <clokep_work> florian: Can we use try for some of it? :-D 13:21:49 * clokep_work needs to go. 13:21:50 <clokep_work> Ciao. 13:22:02 <florian> JS-IRC and JS-XMPP both landed completely unpolished, and should have included a way to pref them off (or at least a configure switch) 13:22:02 <-- clokep_work has quit (Input/output error) 13:22:13 <aleth> Or can one skip the nightly->aurora merge for 6 weeks if one needs to? 13:22:46 <florian> aleth: we won't skip it if we are storing the code in comm-central 13:22:53 <aleth> Ah right. 13:23:19 <florian> so if we are fully on comm-central, we don't decide the merge times 13:23:26 <florian> what we decide is which buildbot jobs we want to run 13:24:19 <aleth> But if I understand correctly, build infrastructure itself is not provided 13:24:50 <florian> not by Mozilla at least 13:25:12 <aleth> So I guess that's the main issue, whether the build slaves can handle it... 13:25:23 <florian> no, how many we need to buy ;). 13:25:25 <aleth> Seeing as even 64 bit builds are not possible atm 13:25:28 <aleth> ah :D 13:25:32 <florian> our current mac slave can't build Moz17 13:25:49 <florian> for 64 bit builds, there's no slave problem, it's a server storage issue 13:26:19 <aleth> That planned migration that never happened? 13:26:32 <florian> yeah 13:27:14 <aleth> Are there any issues with rapid release from c-c now TB itself is no longer on rapid release? 13:27:32 <florian> tb is still on rapid release until 17 is out 13:27:41 <florian> and I don't understand the rest of the question 13:27:46 * aleth is still confused about what will happen after that point 13:28:06 <aleth> So that's why the question might not make any sense ;) 13:28:47 <florian> aleth: things will continue as usual on comm-central, comm-aurora and comm-beta. The beta->release merge will however happen only once every 42 weeks instead of every 6 weeks 13:29:20 <florian> (I typed "42 years" there instead of "42 weeks"; fixed it before sending. That would have been loooooooooong cycles :)) 13:29:38 <aleth> VESR :) 13:30:03 <-- Kaishi has quit (Quit: Kaishi) 13:30:15 <aleth> So no complicated backporting, just one release a year and nothing inbetween? 13:30:43 <florian> just security updates (and maybe small bug fixes in between) 13:31:05 --> mconley has joined #instantbird 13:31:06 <aleth> OK, that makes sense, thanks. 13:31:41 <florian> if we are fine with releasing Instantbird every 42 weeks, we can just copy what comm-central does. (I assumed that was too long for Instantbird, but maybe I'm wrong on that?) 13:32:44 <aleth> Seems a bit long to me too, it would be nicer to get the many small improvments out there faster than once a year 13:33:15 <aleth> (e ven if then not every release has a "killer feature") 13:33:26 <florian> releasing every 6 weeks or every 42 weeks would be easy 13:33:38 <aleth> but I guess it depends on whether the amount of work a release is for you in particular can be brought down 13:34:08 <florian> I think if we release every 6 weeks, that will put enough pressure on us to fully automate it. 13:34:58 <florian> releasing no-visible-changes versions every 6 weeks could be annoying 13:35:12 <florian> would be nicer if we can port the silent update system from Firefox 13:35:45 <aleth> I had naively assumed we would get that free with some gecko update :S 13:36:01 <florian> I think we will get it mostly free 13:36:36 <aleth> otherwise I agree, forcing users to visibly update every 6 weeks for very little is not great 13:36:36 <florian> but we probably have to tweak the default values of some prefs, add a few more files in the package manifest list, and test it for a while 13:37:16 <florian> if we can make the update completely silent, I think we shouldn't bother with finding a shorter than 6 weeks release cycle 13:37:31 <aleth> Why would we want shorter than 6 weeks? 13:37:40 <aleth> Because of the beta phase? 13:37:43 <florian> I meant longer 13:37:53 <aleth> Ah OK ;) 13:37:57 <florian> well, I actually meant "slower" and typed "shorter" instead :( 13:38:43 <florian> and we will need to get serious about unit tests if we are going to ship to end users something every 6 weeks (there's no way we can dog food the builds from all channels ourselves) 13:39:13 <aleth> Realistically we can only dogfood nightlies 13:39:46 <florian> I think some of us could dogfood 2 channels 13:40:02 <florian> like using a localized beta on a work machine, and nightly on a personal machine 13:40:25 <aleth> At the cost of reducing the amount of testing the nightly gets 13:40:38 <florian> sure 13:40:50 <aleth> (seeing that most IB bug reports so far come from devs) 13:40:52 <florian> well, we need more users ;) 13:41:51 <aleth> Yup, on the other hand the screen reader users that upgraded to nightlies to get the recent a11y fixes would probably have been happy(er) to switch to a beta instead 13:42:19 <florian> how many hands do we need to count them? 13:42:33 <aleth> Hard to tell, but there were some tweets 13:42:43 <aleth> Which was more than I had expected at least ;) 13:43:30 <aleth> Anyhow, just as an example. In the end IB as a whole doesn't have that many users of course... 13:44:11 <florian> yeah... But the trend on http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/last2years.php is interesting for the last few weeks 13:44:16 * aleth checks stats 13:44:23 <aleth> Wow, higher than at the last release peak :) 13:44:31 <florian> just what I was going to say ;) 13:45:06 <dew> I've been advertising :P 13:45:27 <florian> dew: some ads were sent inside MoCo last week :-P 13:46:55 <dew> yeah we really need to get mozilla people on IB 13:47:09 <dew> convert the chatzilla hold-outs! 13:47:23 <florian> aleth: but still, that's really few users (compared to Mozilla products). If we really want to have a product used by millions of people, we will need to find a better marketing solution than the current plan (the current plan being "do nothing" :-D). Or we can also decide that the product being used by only a few thousand people is fine with us, as long as they are happy and we love the product. 13:47:41 <florian> dew: go ahead, convert them :). 13:50:26 <florian> dew: you can also play with Pidgin users who don't use file transfer (that's all of them, file transfer is frequently broken in Pidgin :-P). 13:50:26 <-- Optimizer1 has quit (Ping timeout) 13:51:15 <aleth> florian: If we wanted millions of users we would also have to find a way to provide the corresponding support etc... 13:51:45 <florian> aleth: is support really a problem? 13:51:59 <florian> aleth: if users can help each other, and become contributors, it's perfect! ;) 13:52:09 <aleth> True :) 13:52:28 <florian> aleth: the best way to provide great support is to reduce the amount of things that annoy lots of people 13:53:23 * aleth waits for EionRobb to say something 13:53:47 <florian> the frequency of support requests we got for 0.1.2+, 0.2 and 1.0/1.1/1.2 is approximately the same. http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/ shows that not from the same user count though. 13:53:49 --> Optimizer1 has joined #instantbird 13:54:33 <florian> aleth: he isn't around. I checked before mentioning file transfer, I didn't want the conversation to deviate to a basic ft troll :). 13:58:36 <aleth> The steady growth in user numbers is nice to see as it's almost purely word-of-mouth 14:01:20 <aleth> which means they really like it :) 14:15:52 --> jb has joined #instantbird 14:16:47 --> AlexanderSalas has joined #instantbird 14:18:15 <-- barlas has quit (Connection reset by peer) 14:38:01 <florian> "Instantbird encountered a serious error and cannot start, we apologize for the inconvenience. Description: The file "instantbird.xpt" is missing or corrupted." hmm 14:39:10 <florian> bah, we require libpurple at startup: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/modules/ibCore.jsm#33 :( 14:39:18 <florian> s/libpurple/purpexpcom/ 14:51:47 <-- Optimizer1 has quit (Ping timeout) 14:55:03 --> Optimizer1 has joined #instantbird 15:08:46 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout) 15:09:37 <-- Optimizer1 has quit (Ping timeout) 15:12:06 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird 15:13:20 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 15:18:36 <-- jb has quit (Quit: jb) 15:22:14 --> jb has joined #instantbird 15:33:10 <-- AlexanderSalas has quit (Connection reset by peer) 15:36:43 <florian> is https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799504 something we fixed recently? 15:38:38 <dew> we need our bot to have the summary 15:39:31 <florian> dew: we could invite firebot, but last time it was tried, it argued with instantbot :-/ 15:40:00 <florian> dew: [Bug 799504] New: Long retweets are cut off after 140 characters 15:42:20 --> AlexanderSalas has joined #instantbird 15:44:40 <dew> I know I just did that in #maildev thanks though :) 15:44:55 <florian> yeah, I saw... too late ;) 15:45:10 <-- AlexanderSalas has quit (Ping timeout) 15:45:13 --> AlexanderSalas has joined #instantbird 15:48:06 <-- Optimizer has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 15:48:12 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 15:54:25 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1724 filed by florian@instantbird.org. 15:54:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1724 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rename the instantbird/ folder to im/ 15:56:00 <-- florian has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 16:05:05 --> wesj has joined #instantbird 16:09:52 --> wnayes has joined #instantbird 16:18:57 --> flo-retina has joined #instantbird 16:19:03 * flo-retina is now known as florian 16:25:22 --> clokep_work has joined #instantbird 16:25:22 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep_work 16:30:31 <clokep_work> florian: Yes, we fixed that recently. 16:30:37 <clokep_work> It was one of the ones you just ported, I think. 16:30:53 <florian> should we nominate it for comm-beta? 16:31:03 <florian> or does it just doesn't matter? 16:31:09 <clokep_work> bug 1672 16:31:12 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1672 nor, --, 1.3, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Truncated RTs don't always show the full original tweet 16:31:26 <florian> I didn't really looked at what I ported yesterday. Just looked at whether it seemed dangerous or not, and the impact on localizable strings 16:31:33 <clokep_work> I think it doesn't matter personally, I'd just dup that bug to 799068 (or mark it fixed and depends on that other bug). 16:32:43 <florian> ok, would be nice to still paste the link to the changeset though 16:35:04 <clokep_work> I'll do that. 16:35:06 <clokep_work> Just give me a bit. :) 16:52:29 <florian> clokep_work: thanks! 16:52:57 <florian> the patch seems trivial, I think we could take it to Tb17 on beta (I don't really care all that much, but I suspect some people may care about it) 16:54:02 <clokep_work> florian: We possibly should. 16:54:10 <clokep_work> Especially since it'll be TB 17 then? 16:54:18 <clokep_work> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=799509 is WONTFIX, right? 16:54:20 <florian> comm-beta is Tb17 16:55:07 <florian> that's the one about copying the tweet url when clicking the time stamp? 16:55:23 <florian> if so, phrased like that it's wontfix/invalid/whatever. 16:55:38 <florian> but there may be a real frustration somewhere. I think the context menu of tweets isn't discoverable enough 16:55:56 <florian> people likely expect some kind of button or something that they could click when hovering a tweet. 16:56:08 <florian> would be nice to have a way to do actions on tweets without relying on the context menu 16:56:19 <florian> and that may also help for accessibility (not sure) 16:56:45 <clokep_work> Right. 16:59:40 <clokep_work> florian: FWIW The stuff in bug 1724 seems fine. :) 16:59:44 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1724 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Rename the instantbird/ folder to im/ 16:59:46 --> Mook_as has joined #instantbird 16:59:55 <florian> clokep_work: cool 17:00:12 <florian> clokep_work: should we take that in instantbird's repository? soonish? 17:00:42 <florian> or maybe take it, but wait for the changeset to be ready to go in comm-central too? (so that we don't land that if we aren't really landing in c-c) 17:03:03 <clokep_work> florian: I agree that we probably don't want to commit it until after we're in c-c. 17:03:11 <clokep_work> No reason to needlessly move files around. 17:06:41 <clokep_work> (But that we should take it in Instantbird repo too.) 17:08:51 <florian> and should c-c have the move too, or should we use hg convert to rename instantbird/ to im/ in the whole history? ;) 17:09:22 --> igorko has joined #instantbird 17:09:30 <clokep_work> hg-convert probably makes more sense there. 17:09:52 <clokep_work> Do I also remembering something about using hg convert to get the back history of chat/ that wasn't committed? 17:11:29 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 17:14:22 <florian> I still want to do something like that, yes :) 17:15:50 * clokep_work still kind of wants the old SVN commits to be converted to the real author. :P 17:16:18 <clokep_work> Did you ever look at the experiments repo clean up thing. I kind of think we should just wait until I have a user repo and then I can push the irc-js extension there. 17:16:31 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 17:24:58 --> Kaishi has joined #instantbird 17:26:34 <florian> clokep_work: and maybe request user repos for Mic and aleth too? 17:26:55 <florian> clokep_work: I think the permissions required to have a user repo are the same as the ones requires for pushing to try, and that requires only one voucher 17:27:41 <clokep_work> florian: Yes, probably. We could put the sync stuff in Mic's then. Does aleth have anything he'd want to put up there? Or do we just want him to have try-access? :) 17:28:08 <florian> I think he could make good use of try access 17:28:17 <florian> but he would have to install hg and create real patches for that ;) 17:31:17 <clokep_work> Probably. :) 17:31:41 <clokep_work> We should probably split IRC into a submodule, by the way, and make aleth a peer. 17:36:44 <florian> I think we already agreed on that. 17:36:57 <clokep_work> Is it just a matter of changing the wiki page? I'll do it now? :p 17:37:46 <florian> yes. But I think you need the new peer's approval before listing him ;) 17:38:01 <clokep_work> Probably. 17:38:11 * clokep_work waits for alet h to wake up. :) 17:41:06 * clokep_work wonders if we should ask glob to set up the bugzilla components that we'll want, even though we haven't done the BIO -> BMO merge yet... 17:51:05 <-- deltafalcon has quit (Connection reset by peer) 18:00:06 --> rosonline has joined #instantbird 18:07:33 <-- igorko has quit (Ping timeout) 18:11:11 --> igorko has joined #instantbird 18:16:29 <-- Kaishi has quit (Quit: Kaishi) 18:16:33 <-- rosonline has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 18:19:27 <-- skeledrew has quit (Connection reset by peer) 18:19:29 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird 18:23:19 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout) 18:29:18 <-- aleth has quit (Input/output error) 18:32:16 <-- AlexanderSalas has quit (Ping timeout) 18:36:35 --> AlexanderSalas has joined #instantbird 18:38:10 --> aleth has joined #instantbird 18:38:10 * ChanServ sets mode +h aleth 18:48:22 <-- Tonnes has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 15.0.1/20120905151427]) 19:00:38 --> Tonnes has joined #instantbird 19:08:21 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Au revoir) 19:09:40 <-- wnayes has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 19:44:16 <-- igorko has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2 -- http://www.instantbird.com) 20:03:33 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 20:09:06 --> flo has joined #instantbird 20:09:06 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 20:13:48 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.3a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 20:14:11 --> flo has joined #instantbird 20:14:11 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 20:38:38 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 20:38:38 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 20:41:13 <Mic> Hi! 20:41:24 <Mook_as> Hi! 20:48:58 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Ping timeout) 20:51:11 <-- mconley has quit (Connection reset by peer) 20:53:26 --> mconley has joined #instantbird 21:03:43 <-- clokep_work has quit (Ping timeout) 21:06:04 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 21:10:35 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 21:11:24 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 21:11:24 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 21:13:21 <-- AlexanderSalas has quit (Quit: Goodbye - as-salamu 3alaykum) 21:13:45 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 21:15:27 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 21:24:18 --> Kaishi has joined #instantbird 21:34:14 <-- mconley has quit (Input/output error) 21:49:38 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2a1pre -- http://www.instantbird.com) 21:50:42 <flo> all the articles I've seen that talk about the additional chat protocols add-on have a link to instantbird :) 22:04:51 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout) 22:07:09 --> Optimizer has joined #instantbird 22:18:15 --> jb has joined #instantbird 22:40:33 <-- SM0TVI has quit (Ping timeout) 22:51:48 --> SM0TVI has joined #instantbird 22:57:05 <-- Kaishi has quit (Ping timeout) 23:09:25 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout) 23:12:47 --> Kaishi has joined #instantbird