#instantbird log on 08 29 2012

All times are UTC.

00:00:54 <clokep> aleth: Feel free to mark that bug as check-in needed btw. I'm sure flo is bored. ;)
00:01:17 <aleth> alrighty ;)
00:01:38 <flo> aleth: For the first time isn't something that instantbird can know, only the server (or maybe instantbot?) would know
00:01:52 * clokep pats instantbot.
00:01:53 * instantbot beams
00:07:38 <flo> aleth: in error.descriptionTooLong, is the number a constant?
00:07:53 <aleth> Yes
00:08:50 <flo> shouldn't that constant be given in the localization note?
00:09:14 <flo> (how are localizers supposed to know which plural form they need to use otherwise?)
00:09:57 <aleth> Hmm.. isn't the change clokep made pointless in that case?
00:10:29 <clokep> flo: I don't follow, I think in the note I say it's the maximum number of characters, why do they need to know the exact number?
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00:12:16 <flo> clokep: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Localization_and_Plurals
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00:17:15 <clokep> Sorry, had a black out...
00:17:29 <clokep> flo: I didn't realize there was so many differences...and yes aleth, my changes are useless then.
00:17:33 <clokep> (Well some of them.)
00:18:01 <aleth> clokep: Fwiw I didn't know this either ;)
00:18:13 <clokep> Don't you speak other languages? :P
00:18:26 <clokep> aleth: Btw you have Twitter now?
00:18:31 * clokep wants to follow you!
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00:21:00 <aleth> clokep: I don't actually use twitter myself atm, I just have a passive account to follow stuff with. But I'll let you know if I start tweeting :)
00:21:14 <clokep> Excellent. :)
00:22:57 <flo> aleth just said that he doesn't use twitter but only uses a twitter account. Is it expected that I'm a bit confused after reading that? :-P
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00:23:47 <aleth> flo: I guess I should have said 'lurker' ;)
00:24:49 <clokep> Hmm....well you're not "aleth" on there...
00:25:43 <aleth> I should probably start tweeting properly to make myself fix some of the larger twitter bugs ;)
00:26:09 <flo> aleth: just to lurk you will want to be able to see people's timeline :)
00:30:48 <flo> wnayes: I'm glad you enjoyed the summer :). If there's anything we could do to make the experience better next year for the next student we will be mentoring (or maybe for you if you find another exciting proposal?), don't hesitate to send us feedback :).
00:31:14 <flo> either here or in private if there are things that were frustrating but you wouldn't want to share publicly.
00:31:35 <flo> and I already know my low responsiveness for reviews is frustrating, I'm sorry about that :(.
00:32:05 <Mook_as> there are times when you're responsive. namely when I throw multiple patches at you in one day :p
00:32:18 <EionRobb> so is all the IM stuff in Thunderbird from Instantbird?
00:32:41 <flo> EionRobb: most of it yes. "all" no.
00:32:45 <clokep> And you don't follow me....hm....
00:33:02 <EionRobb> flo: nice :)
00:33:36 <flo> Mook_as: I'm responsive when I get excited by a patch and feel "wow I would really want that to be in yesterday's nightly" and the patch looks like I can review it in less than an hour ;)
00:34:36 <EionRobb> although crazy that TB has bundled IM but doesn't have Lightening bundled
00:34:42 <flo> Mook_as: but some patches are boring (but aleth and clokep are doing a great job of reviewing each other's boring patches these days :)), and some patches require a lot of time to review them (wnayes' SoC patch is in that category)
00:34:53 <wnayes> flo: My patches were/are definitely 1+ hour material, so I can understand that :)
00:35:45 <aleth> clokep: are you going to attach a new patch for fl o on 1666/
00:35:51 <Mook_as> yeah, I guess the fact that these days I can't be arsed to write patches that big helps :p
00:36:06 <flo> wnayes: it's pretty difficult to focus 1+ hour on a review in a period where we are focusing entirely on finishing a release and pushing it out the door. :-|
00:36:38 <flo> Mook_as: splitting large things in small patches helps a lot with reviewing :)
00:37:07 * flo wonders if aleth was afraid of pinging him even though he talked less than one minute ago :-D
00:37:50 <clokep> aleth: Sure. I can in a minute.
00:38:44 <flo> EionRobb: IMHO it's also crazy that they announced before IM was released that Tb's future will be in the hands of the community for adding new features...
00:47:04 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1868 on bug 1666.
00:47:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1666 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Set twitter topic to the user's self-description
00:48:45 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm granted review for attachment 1868 on bug 1666.
00:48:58 <clokep> flo: Among other things...
00:53:18 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1869 on bug 1626.
00:53:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1626 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Some screen readers say the word "frame" a lot when moving the selection in the contacts list
00:54:15 <flo> clokep: hm?
00:57:59 <clokep> flo: In terms of TB doing werird shit
00:58:32 * flo would be curious to know what the other weird shitty things are from your point of view :)
00:58:42 <clokep> Mostly not finishing features.
00:59:01 <clokep> Wasting lots of development time on things like Raindrop or Deuxrop or whatever, with nothing materializing.
01:00:34 <flo> that's Mozilla messaging, not Thunderbird :)
01:00:51 <flo> or MoCo's behavior w.r.t messaging
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01:01:03 <flo> (as MoMe is dead)
01:01:19 <clokep> Fair enough. :P
01:02:18 <clokep> aleth: Feel free to CC me on any bug filed about Instantbird on BMO btw. :)
01:02:37 <flo> Looking at the patch from bug 1666, is there anything preventing the topic from being updated when receiving a completely unrelated notification from a different account/protocol?
01:02:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1666 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Set twitter topic to the user's self-description
01:04:20 <aleth> Not if the nick happens to match.
01:04:38 <aleth> But since the topic updates quietly, I don't think it matters.
01:06:20 <flo> do you mean it's not an issue that we will be showing random junk, as long as it doesn't popups? :)
01:06:52 <aleth> Why would you show random junk?
01:07:26 <aleth> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/modules/jsProtoHelper.jsm#480
01:07:36 <flo> if I look at the tooltip of an IRC account, for the same nick?
01:08:14 <flo> I'll look at this again tomorrow, I'm too tired to say things that make sense :)
01:08:16 <flo> Good night
01:08:45 <aleth> You would only get as far as setTopic, which would return in the line I just linked
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01:16:03 <clokep> I didn't see any issues w/ that...
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02:56:32 <instant-buildbot> build #614 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/614
03:01:32 <EionRobb> what's the memory usage of IB like?
03:03:16 <Mook> right now, for me, it's at 34M private working set, 50M total working set, 77M peak working set, and ~ 300M virtual size (80M private bytes). Windows.
03:03:39 <EionRobb> how many accounts are you connected to?
03:04:04 <Mook> Started on... Aug 16, been through a few hibernate cycles. MSN, Gtalk, and AIM.
03:04:17 <Mook> don't think I've had many conversations on it, though...
03:04:58 <Mook> I guess that means auto-updates have been stuck :p
03:08:07 <clokep> EionRobb: I'm at 100 MB, 14 accounts connected, idling in 14 IRC channels, 2 twitter timelines, 2 XMPP rooms and 3 private conversations.
03:11:17 <EionRobb> ok, I was just trying to work out whether the mozilla frameworks stuff was a memory hog :)  
03:11:43 <EionRobb> trying to work out why thunderbird would need 300 mb of ram for 2 email accounts, while pidgin/instantbird only need 100mb for 14 accounts
03:12:36 <clokep> Most people consider Mozilla stuff to be kind of memory hogs.
03:12:52 <clokep> I think if you have a large inbox...maybe the indexer could do that.
03:13:05 <EionRobb> yeah, but IB uses the same framework without the same problems
03:16:24 <Mook> fwiw, tbird for me (3 IRC servers, no mail accounts) is at ~200MB; started about... an hour and a half ago?
03:17:22 <EionRobb> crazy
03:17:30 <EionRobb> add an email protocol to IB :)
03:17:45 <clokep> Daily for me is at 320 MB w/ 6 mail accounts (IMAP), probably 15 - 25 RSS feeds and one NNTP server.
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03:50:58 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1870 on bug 1615.
03:51:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1615 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC CTCP messages break if there is a line break
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04:55:41 <instant-buildbot> build #692 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/692
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06:13:59 <instant-buildbot> build #598 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/598
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09:15:45 <Mic> Hi
09:19:01 <aleth> Hi Mic :)
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09:26:04 <flo> "04:31:18 - justdave: florian: I like the way Adium handles that. When you drop a contact on another one it prompts to ask you if you want to merge them" should we add a prompt when someone merges contacts? (and maybe with an unchecked "[ ] show next time" checkbox like for the warning when hiding a tag?)
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09:37:43 <barlas> I wouldn't want a notification each time I merge someone.
09:38:01 <barlas> But I won't mind one time notification for it.
09:40:03 <aleth> Isn't it already necessary to expand a contact before one can merge others with it? If it's about preventing unintentional merges, that's already one step that stops them
09:40:17 <barlas> aleth: No
09:40:26 <barlas> You can just drag someone  and drop on anyone
09:40:29 <aleth> OK
09:41:20 <aleth> Right, so I guess the issue is "apparently disappearing contacts" for novice users who've not seen the feature
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10:18:22 <clokep> flo: I think a prompt would be really anoying. :-/
10:18:31 <flo> anybody still has the link to the draft of release announcement for Tb-IM that mentioned Instantbird? :)
10:18:37 <flo> clokep: it would be only the first time
10:18:38 <clokep> I mean sure you can add a checkbox "Don't show this", but that gets rid of the safety net of having it!
10:18:49 <clokep> I wouldn't want the prompt when I'm setting up my buddy list, but maybe later on I would want it.
10:19:15 <flo> so the checkbox should be "don't show this during the next hour"? :)
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10:20:27 <aleth> How about adding having to expand the target first?
10:20:56 <aleth> This need not require a click - it could expand after a second of hovering during drag & drop or so
10:20:59 <flo> aleth: that would be in my way :)
10:21:09 <flo> right, that could work
10:21:27 <aleth> So if you're "accidentally" dragging, it prevents accidents
10:22:03 <clokep> I think that's a good way to teach people about the feature, but not a good way to avoid accidents.
10:22:14 <clokep> Well, after the first one. ;)
10:22:29 <aleth> It ensures you see where the contact goes!
10:22:55 <aleth> That was the idea, anyway...
10:22:57 <flo> aleth: would it stay expanded after you've finished the drop?
10:23:19 <aleth> Or until the animations finish?
10:23:27 <aleth> I don't know what would be best there
10:23:52 <flo> any idea of how I can find that link again?
10:23:52 <flo> was it in etherpad?
10:24:27 <clokep> aleth: I didn't mean your idea, I meant the prompt. It seems very kludgy.
10:28:29 <flo> I'm not even sure of what I can grep in the #instantbird logs :-S
10:29:20 <aleth> I take it it's no longer in the actual release accouncement? ;)
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10:30:58 <flo> aleth: there's a very short announcement at https://www.facebook.com/Thunderbird
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10:31:56 <aleth> ahaha "I thought development of new features stopped? Confused"
10:32:09 <flo> yeah...
10:32:48 <aleth> hey, theres' a comment mentioning IB at least :)
10:33:03 <flo> do we know that Tomáš Komárek ? :)
10:33:38 <aleth> Does he do a l10n?
10:34:23 <clokep> Sounds familiar...
10:36:06 <flo> do you all remember reading it, or is it possible I never pasted the link here?
10:36:31 <aleth> I can't remember it
10:36:40 <clokep> flo: I vaguely recall you mentioning it, but I want to say it was in a private message to me?
10:36:53 <clokep> (Probably @ _work.)
10:37:02 <barlas> Shouldn't it be on TB's site?
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10:38:37 <flo-retina> it was probably https://etherpad.mozilla.org/dOBFxk6h7F
10:39:24 <clokep> Yes, that was it.
10:39:27 <flo-retina> the sentence that seemed interesting at the time was "We have leveraged the experience of the Instantbird application developers to add a Chat feature within Thunderbird. "
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10:48:37 <flo-retina> feelings about https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=786608 ?
10:52:09 <clokep> flo-retina: I'm not against it, but you're switching a default port to a default port, it might not necessarily be right.
10:52:30 <clokep> Also, it would be hard to do w/ our current options system. :)
10:52:44 <flo> it would be a protocol specific hack at the UI-level
10:54:01 <clokep> Then I'd probably be OK w/ that.
10:54:45 <flo-retina> I'm surprised by https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=786606
10:55:05 <flo-retina> I almost resolved it as WFM as I use that shortcut all the time, but I just tried it to be sure, and it didn't work :-S.
10:55:24 <flo-retina> feels like something that wants an unit test ;)
10:59:51 <clokep> Was it fixed...not for 15?
11:00:05 <flo> I tested on a trunk debug build
11:00:09 <flo> so I suspect it regressed recently
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11:04:50 <flo> so the announcement was made on https://blog.mozilla.org/thunderbird/ apparently
11:05:00 <flo> and doesn't mention Instantbird at all.
11:07:00 <aleth> flo: well congrats anyway for getting it released! :)
11:08:14 <aleth> Still no dropbox filelink support? How come? :-/
11:10:52 <flo-retina> http://www.ghacks.net/2012/08/28/thunderbird-15-0-final-released/ "Love the chat function! simply, clean, easy!"
11:12:33 <flo-retina> aleth: dropbox filelink support should be available in an add-on on AMO
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11:30:15 <Mic> Is it bad if I said that I'm not that surprised by http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today/#m266 ?
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11:41:55 <Mic> The reason why I think this way is: why would they want to advertise a product with a competing chat feature? Why should they care if they have no connection to IB whatsoever (not using it, never tried it, ...) and why would they want to do things that are unrelated extra work to the things that they normally do (I'm thinking of the BIO->BMO merge here).
11:43:47 <Mic> Well, just my two cents ;)
11:43:47 <Mic> bbl
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11:47:23 * flo-retina wonders what Mic's point is.
11:47:33 <flo-retina> of course I'm not surprised
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12:01:45 <clokep_work> flo-retina: Yeah but I looked yesterday and couldn't find Dropbox on AMO. I ended up building the extension myself.
12:02:09 <clokep_work> (Which doesn't work with MozillaBuild and I ended up having to SSH to Linux, download the repo again, run the build script and then SCP the resulting XPI back...I wasn't happy. :P)
12:02:37 <flo-retina> I'm sorry that you weren't happy yerterday ;).
12:02:42 <flo-retina> *yesterday
12:03:31 * clokep_work plans to poke mconley today until he tells me where the XPI is. ;)
12:03:48 <flo-retina> clokep_work: the XPI is on your linux box, you just said it :-P.
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12:21:20 <clokep_work> I suppose I deserved that. :P
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12:24:14 <aleth> clokep_work: Isn't this |let otherMessage = rawCTCPParam.replace(/\x01([^\x01]*)\x01/g,| basically highDequote?
12:25:26 <clokep_work> aleth: Not at all.
12:25:42 <clokep_work> aleth: It splits the message on \x01<message we care about>\x01.
12:25:53 <aleth> Oh right.
12:26:30 <aleth> Sorry, missed the earlier code on scrolling.
12:28:33 <clokep_work> Not a problem. :)
12:28:42 <clokep_work> Does it need a better comment? I think there is one there...
12:29:04 <aleth> Not really.
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12:39:18 <clokep_work> Excellent. :)
12:39:22 <clokep_work> I hope the rest makes some sort of sense!
12:39:34 <aleth> Looks good to me, but I should test it ;)
12:44:00 <clokep_work> Haha.
12:44:03 <clokep_work> I did test it for a bit. :)
12:44:13 <clokep_work> But not super super extensively.
12:44:20 <clokep_work> I found it hard to get invalid characters into the input box. :P
12:47:33 <clokep_work> (obviously \r\n is easy to test.)
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13:05:54 <deOmega> Good morning all.  I can see why I am not a visionary :)... Nice work on that messenger in TBird.
13:06:02 <Mic> What's your reasons for not being surprised, flo?
13:08:25 <Mic> hmm, maybe it's not that important either. Nevermind ...
13:11:19 <flo> Mic: I don't expect much recognition for Instantbird from Mozilla; except when we actively sought and negotiated it :).
13:11:42 <flo> Mic: another way to say it is that I've been disappointed enough times that I'm not surprised any more when I'm disappointed another time ;).
13:22:09 <flo> some people are getting all excited about self-signed certificates for XMPP in BMO :)
13:23:38 <clokep_work> ?
13:24:09 <flo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=780749
13:24:48 <flo> 4 different people new to bugzilla commenting about it ;)
13:29:04 <clokep_work> I don't think I got emails for that at all. :-/
13:29:50 <flo> http://nyco.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/thunderbird-15-speaks-xmpp/ hmm, wasn't this nyco an XMPP "enthusiast" who already came here or in our bugzilla?
13:30:14 <flo> https://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla_messaging/topics/xmpp_connection_works_with_pidgin_fails_with_thunderbird may be why people are talking about self-signed certs in BMO
13:32:04 <clokep_work> Hmm...I definitely watch Thunderbird, Instant Messaging component...
13:33:55 <flo> maybe you didn't get bugmail because the comments were uninteresting? :)
13:34:14 <clokep_work> I have a feeling I don't get bugmail for unconfirmed bugs in a component I watch.
13:34:36 <aleth> Wow, there's a party in that bug.
13:34:53 <aleth> Maybe that's just what happens when suddenly there are lots of new users ;)
13:36:16 <clokep_work> Bah Firefox has been hanging awful for me here. :-/
13:38:11 <clokep_work> Ah-ha, I had "but not when the bug is in the UNCONFIRMED state" checked off...
13:38:17 <clokep_work> (For component watching)
13:40:45 <flo> aleth: yeah, it's an XMPP party
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13:41:46 * clokep_work wonders if we should have an XMPP room btw...
13:42:07 <flo> it's lovely that they are all sure that their server cert config is right because it works in Pidgin (for those that forgot, the code checkin certs when Pidgin uses NSS seemed to be http://lxr.instantbird.org/pidgin2.6.3/source/libpurple/plugins/ssl/ssl-nss.c#159 last time I checked :))
13:42:18 <flo> clokep_work: we should, but on which server?
13:42:25 <clokep_work> flo: mozilla.org? ;)
13:42:37 <flo> clokep_work: conference.mozilla.org ?
13:42:45 * clokep_work wonders if that exists.
13:43:09 <flo> or do we want an XMPP server at instantbird.im or instantbird.net ?
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13:43:24 <clokep_work> Or instantbird.org?
13:47:51 <clokep_work> I think instantbird.im or instantbird.org make sense, do we even use instantbird.net?
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13:54:28 <flo> no :)
13:54:34 <flo> that would be an opportunity to use it
13:55:24 <flo> I proposed it because I wouldn't want other people to have an ssl certificate for instantbird.org or *.instantbird.org
13:55:46 <flo> and if the xmpp accounts are foo@instantbird.org, a cert for instantbird.org will be required
13:56:04 <flo> but if we only use it for conference.instantbird.org and don't let people register XMPP accounts on it, it doesn't matter :)
13:56:18 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird.org for attachment 1870 on bug 1615.
13:56:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1615 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC CTCP messages break if there is a line break
13:57:11 <clokep_work> Ah, I wasn't thinking we'd have accounts on it persay...
13:57:29 <clokep_work> Ah, aleth wants to share some blame if that patch breaks the world...
13:57:59 <aleth> clokep_work: merely https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1615#c1 ;)
13:58:11 <flo-retina> couldn't instantbot review it?
13:58:19 <aleth> instantreview
13:58:29 <flo-retina> can I require unit tests? :-P
13:59:03 <clokep_work> flo-retina: If you want.
14:00:15 <flo> (I haven't even looked at the patch ;))
14:06:46 <aleth> Should bug 1592 be fixed on the system requirements webpage?
14:06:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1592 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, glib version requirements bad
14:08:04 * aleth is wondering why it's unconfirmed given the comments
14:12:20 <flo> aleth: what's unconfirmed is whether we care about supporting old glib versions or not
14:12:23 <flo> or how old
14:13:14 <aleth> but if current 1.2 binaries don't run with the glib version specified, isn't that the issue?
14:14:17 <flo> aleth: the reporter has an old OS that can't run the current builds we produce
14:14:24 <flo> I think that's the issue the reporter wants fixed
14:14:40 <flo> and I suspect that's wontfix, and we want to change the system requirements on the websit e:)
14:14:49 <aleth> That's what I suspected too ;)
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14:19:25 * clokep_work doesn't like that newest comment on bug 786606...
14:19:26 <flo-retina> if anybody is interested, here is a log of how purple/ fails to build on Win64: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/thunderbird/try-builds/florian@queze.net-9f74ec345bb0/try-comm-central-win64/try-comm-central-win64-bm14-try1-build165.txt.gz
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14:20:17 <clokep_work> Bleh, glib...
14:21:55 <flo-retina> probably glibconfig.h needs some more hacking if we ever care about that platform (I don't)
14:22:03 <flo-retina> clokep_work: what do you dislike about that comment? :)
14:22:11 <flo-retina> clokep_work: the guy has a good reason to be pissed off
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14:23:54 <clokep_work> flo-retina: The way he says it is pretty condescending IMO. How are people to know those things exist?
14:24:30 <flo-retina> because the support team is supposed to be well connected to the rest of the Tb team
14:25:56 <clokep_work> But they're not. :P
14:26:13 <flo-retina> I know they exist half an hour a week, during the status meeting
14:26:24 <clokep_work> Adding the cert to the cert store would help the cert issues people are seeing in XMPP, right?
14:26:34 <clokep_work> I know that purple.ssl....doesn't do anything.
14:26:37 <clokep_work> Well I remember that now. :-D
14:26:51 <flo-retina> it would, if the only issue with the cert is that it's self-signed
14:26:59 <flo-retina> if it's also expired, or not for the right hostname, it won't help
14:30:45 <clokep_work> Bleh. We should fix that. ;(
14:30:49 <clokep_work> And the HTTP proxy thing.
14:31:03 <clokep_work> I tried playing with that a bit (I had set up a proxy...), but none of the easy solutions worked.
14:31:19 <flo-retina> we should definitely improve the error message to tell clearly what the problem is (at the very least in the error console)
14:31:25 <flo-retina> but the NSS APIs really suck :(
14:32:01 <clokep_work> :-/
14:32:26 <flo-retina> my libpurple add-on for tb has http://www.instantbird.org/ as the homepage link (quite visible, and clickable from the add-on manager)
14:32:31 <flo-retina> that's fair game, right? :)
14:33:06 <aleth> :)
14:33:09 <flo-retina> I'm wondering if I should use something like http://www.instantbird.com/?thunderbird or something
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14:33:26 <flo-retina> so that it shows the instantbird home page with the download link, but also let us filter them later
14:33:34 * aleth wonders if wnayes will have time for a TB account importer ;)
14:33:49 <flo-retina> aleth: heh :)
14:33:52 <flo-retina> aleth: I may have
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14:34:39 <flo-retina> I almost convinced bwinton yesterday that the correct way to configure IM accounts for existing email accounts that Tb has would be to put wnayes' work in Tb and add a Tb importer that creates accounts based on the usernames and passwords of existing email accounts :)
14:35:02 <flo-retina> and if that's the correct way, then reviewing wnayes' patch is my paid work ;)
14:35:35 <clokep_work> I think that that makes sense. :)
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14:38:33 <aleth> plausible enough to work ;)
14:39:11 <Mic> hmm, what about collapsed system messages getting crumpled borders: http://i.imgur.com/J3jpl.png ?
14:40:25 <Mic> I need to go, have a nice day :)
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14:40:39 <aleth> Mic: are you going to add this? http://blakemccreary.com/2012/04/3d-folded-paper-effect-using-javascript-html5-and-css3/ ;)
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14:42:36 <flo-retina> aleth: that's nice :)
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14:46:10 <aleth> could be a bit much... ;)
14:55:41 * clokep_work hasn't seen any crazy IRC bugs yet from Thunderbird people. ;)
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14:57:41 <flo> they are all busy breaking things on their own XMPP servers
14:57:54 <clokep_work> :)
14:57:56 <flo> I'm not the only one who likes talking to himself ;)
15:08:37 <flo-retina> uh, the location information in libpurple errors in the Tb add-on are completely wrong
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15:17:39 <flo> heh, my Windows VM has Firefox 4.0.1 /)
15:19:16 <flo> clokep_work: "17:17:51 - florian has invited you to #thunderbird." I'm almost sure that's wrong and Standard8 is the one who invited me ;)
15:20:25 <clokep_work> flo: File a bug? ;)
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15:48:27 <flo> clokep_work:  I wonder if we can turn that gael (who just emailed contact@ib.org) into a code contributor :)
15:48:37 <flo> clokep_work: on twitter he seemed super enthusiastic about Instantbird.
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15:50:34 <clokep_work> flo: Maybe. :) Did my response make sense? I think the translation I got was good...
15:50:49 <flo> clokep_work: it made perfect sense
15:51:18 <flo> clokep_work: to the point that if he hadn't mentioned he was writing in French and if you hadn't mentioned Google translate, I may not have noticed the language change in the middle of the thread :)
15:53:32 <clokep_work> flo: Excellent. :)
15:53:41 * clokep_work finds that weird since he doesn't know two langauges extremely well...
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16:34:38 <flo-retina> I'm wondering if "Purplexpcom" is a correct name for that add-on
16:34:50 <flo-retina> maybe I should use something like "Libpurple support for Thunderbird"?
16:36:43 * clokep_work wonders if people even know what libpurple is...
16:37:20 <flo-retina> Chat++ ?
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17:08:52 <instantbot> New Core - IRC bug 1684 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
17:08:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1684 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Name of the inviter not correctly displayed when invited to join an IRC channel
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17:57:13 <clokep_work> People on support forums get so upset...
17:58:24 <flo> you mean just about that cert/XMPP issue?
17:58:57 <clokep_work> Yes.
17:59:52 <flo> XMPP fans seem to commonly do that, they seem to hate everybody is their beloved technology isn't supported the way they want
17:59:55 <flo> *if
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18:01:27 <clokep_work> I was telling some people over lunch about the issues though and most of them simply replied "Make them use valid certs" :P
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18:36:14 <aleth> lots of frustrated XMPP users trying to connect to their badly-certed company servers I guess ;)
18:36:15 <flo> clokep_work: "Make them use valid certs" that's of course the only valid solution
18:36:32 <flo> clokep_work: but we should still tell them why their current cert isn't valid :)
18:37:14 <aleth> flo: That's the real issue, they have no explanation, so nothing to act on (has it expired? wrong domain? etc)
18:37:19 <clokep_work> flo: Yes. :) (These are also my friends who do security related things...so when I showed them that pidgin code, I think their hearts stopped...)
18:37:45 <aleth> clokep_work: actually I was a bit shocked too, though I knew it was sketchy before, well...
18:37:56 <flo> clokep_work: were they using Pidgin? :)
18:38:33 <flo> clokep_work: to be fair, I think Pidgin does have some cert verification code; but I think it's used only when GnuTls is used instead of NSS
18:38:36 <clokep_work> flo: Nah. Most of them use the gmail interface...
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19:13:37 * flo starts to think like clokep_work that bug 786606 is getting unpleasant.
19:19:19 <Mook_as> unfortunately, there are only four letters in "chat", and all of them are taken by something (IIRC, cmd+shift+h on mac is "hide others"?)
19:21:23 <aleth> cmd-shift-t for "talk"?
19:21:36 <Mook_as> undo close tab :(
19:21:44 <aleth> yeah :-/
19:22:12 <flo> Mook_as: cmd+shift+h is hide the current application
19:22:47 <flo> Mook_as: Fallen will just have to admit that he has already lost that key, and get over it ;).
19:22:55 <Mook_as> ah, okay. (I thought that was cmd+H... but what do I know, I don't use a mac :p )
19:23:14 <aleth> Is ctrl-shift-L taken (for Lightning)?
19:23:40 <aleth> hmm, reply to list.
19:23:41 <flo> Mook_as: ah no, cmd+shift+h isn't taken by the OS, sorry :)
19:23:45 <aleth> too many shortcuts...
19:23:51 <flo> Mook_as: it opens the history in Firefox and log viewer in Instantbird :)
19:25:39 <flo> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=786684 is surprising too
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19:37:51 <clokep_work> flo: I think I've seen that error before...
19:37:59 <clokep_work> When I tried to connect to GTalk w/ just my user name.
19:39:09 <clokep_work> flo: Someone on the blog is asking for your addon btw.
19:39:18 <flo> which blog?
19:39:43 <clokep_work> blog.instantbird.org!
19:40:04 <flo> can that person get instantbird instead? :-P
19:40:29 <flo> I'm still not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing that I don't receive email notifications for comments on the blog :)
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19:51:26 <aleth> using IB for troubleshooting ;) https://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla_messaging/topics/xmpp_connection_works_with_pidgin_fails_with_thunderbird#reply_9889304
19:53:23 <aleth> surprised that worked, since IB uses libpurple for xmpp...
19:54:04 <aleth> I suppose it was accidental, reading the followups.
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20:03:01 <flo> aleth: so the real issue was "NSS's UI is crappy"
20:03:09 <flo> (and that's an understatement)
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20:05:42 <aleth> flo: Yes :( you have to know enough to be able to guess what to do. No help offered.
20:06:28 <flo> "I'd still maintain that Ctrl+Shift+I might have some mnemonic value for "Chat", users can think of "Internet Chat", "Initiate Chat", "Interaction", "Interconnection" etc." ahaha :)
20:06:47 <aleth> Instant!
20:06:50 <aleth> :P
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20:09:20 <flo> It's "I" like in "Get *I*nstantbird" ;)
20:11:36 <flo> actually, I also lol'ed @ "Well, DOM Inspector is only for a very small minority of geek users, so if they have to live without shortcut for DOM Inspector, or with a less intuitive shortcut, I don't see a big problem there."
20:11:58 <flo> like, "sure, let's ask developers to break a feature they use everyday, it's not a problem, it will only be painful for them" :-)
20:14:02 <aleth> Heh... tbh I had no idea DOMi has a shortcut, I don't think it does in IB.
20:14:28 <flo> !!
20:14:43 <flo> it's there by default in debug builds, and opens DOMi automatically on the right window
20:15:11 <aleth> I guess it doesn't work if you are using the add-on then.
20:15:25 <flo> the DOMi add-on for release builds is sucky though (it may not have the shortcut, or if it has it, it works only on the blist window, which makes it relatively useless)
20:16:04 <flo> but I don't debug non-debug builds often enough that the pain was high enough to fix it :)
20:16:53 <aleth> If it's the same in TB, don't tell in the thread, cos it means the key isn't taken at all for end users ;)
20:17:32 <flo> it's the same DOMi shortcut everywhere (Fx, Tb, Ib)
20:17:46 <aleth> Sure, but if it does not work in the release builds...
20:18:01 <flo> it's just that DOMi (in the repository) doesn't include the shortcut by default for Ib, and whoever made the DOMi add-on for Ib didn't add it
20:18:34 <aleth> I don't really want to get into that argument over keyboard shortcuts anyway, it sounds painful enough as it is ;)
20:18:36 <flo> who care about release builds? ;)
20:19:07 <aleth> Maybe the calendar guys felt a bit neglected for other reasons already...
20:19:10 <flo> yeah :)
20:19:28 <flo> (that "yeah" wasn't replying the your sentence about the calendar guy)
20:19:43 <aleth> I guessed
20:20:05 <flo> aleth: he got hired to work on calendar, and will continue after Tb17 (ie after Mozilla stops developing Tb), so I don't think he's neglected :)
20:20:29 <aleth> heh, maybe it's wanted for b2g :P
20:21:08 <flo> nah, he isn't working for MoCo
20:21:26 <aleth> oh ok.
20:21:36 <flo> he was hired by a French company that supports a piece of software that's mostly Tb+lightning+some fixes
20:22:08 <flo> they posted to tb-planning about it recently :)
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20:25:36 <flo> aleth: oh, you have editbugs on BMO now? :)
20:25:52 <aleth> since the other day :)
20:39:09 <flo> that post on tb-planning is sad, I can feel his pain.
20:41:04 <aleth> which one?
20:46:17 <flo> the one from the Bespoke I/O guy who is closing his service because he's running out of money and hasn't found a single customer for his service
20:47:01 <dew> can you link me
20:47:42 <flo> ah it's not tb-planning sorry, only tb-enterprise
20:48:08 <flo> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/tb-enterprise/2012-August/000633.html
20:48:42 <Mook_as> fwiw, the xpcom binary component version check is http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/xpcom/components/nsNativeComponentLoader.cpp#182
20:49:48 <dew> aw that's sad, flo :(
20:51:54 <dew> I used to work IT at a hospital and boy were they stingy with money towards certain things
20:51:57 <dew> it blew my mind
20:52:31 <dew> guess that's why I got out and got a job I love, writing software
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20:57:45 <flo> Mook_as: crazy as you are, can you think of any way to hack around it?
20:58:29 <flo> Mook_as: in dynamic library, isn't there a way to execute code at the time the library is loaded into memory? Couldn't we find the "right" version at that point, and put it at the memory address that will be read by that check?
20:59:06 <Mook_as> DllMain?
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20:59:59 <Mook_as> though I think it's going to be less painful using JS-ctypes, possibly, implementing nsIFactory that loads the real C++ thing instead (though you need to make everything there use a C API)
21:00:00 * instantbot mumbles something about c++ being evil
21:00:12 * Mook_as agrees with instantbot
21:00:16 <Mook_as> but then, that's why it's fun...
21:01:27 <Mook_as> ooh, actually, you just need to write your own NSGetFactory, the nsIFactory bits can stay C++...
21:03:04 <Mook_as> hmm, but ctypes and xpcom don't mix, nevermind :\
21:07:31 <flo> what do you mean by "they don't mix"?
21:11:33 <flo> aleth: I remember a few days ago you told me that I was blocking you with a review, but I don't remember if it's done or not. Is there still something where I'm blocking you?
21:11:52 <flo> I have ~1 hour now to do reviews
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21:31:30 <Mook_as> while you can call C functions, you can't treat the result as a raw pointer for xpconnect to QI to nsIFactory, so it's pretty useless...
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21:58:53 * clokep_work doesn't think he'll have a chance to fix that bug tonight...:(
22:00:49 <flo> the invite one?
22:03:30 <clokep_work> Yes.
22:03:32 <clokep_work> I'm still at work.
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22:04:42 <flo> clokep_*work*: I think I could guess that easily ;)
22:05:15 <clokep_work> :P
22:05:25 <clokep_work> Well Im' going out to dinner so...
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22:10:42 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 1829 on bug 1658.
22:10:45 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1658 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Improve keyboard accessibility of the contact list
22:10:50 <flo> so I hoped with an hour I could get rid of half of my queue
22:10:56 <flo> and I only r-'ed that bug :(
22:18:21 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 1869 on bug 1626.
22:18:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1626 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Some screen readers say the word "frame" a lot when moving the selection in the contacts list
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22:31:51 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 1870 on bug 1615.
22:31:54 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1615 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, IRC CTCP messages break if there is a line break
22:32:42 <aleth> flo: sorry, I was away. I'm not blocked, but Mic is, by bug 1448 (which is why I patched it)
22:32:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1448 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Handle bad log files properly
22:33:20 <flo> :(
22:33:40 <aleth> btw, -moz-focus-ring is not a colour
22:34:29 <aleth> flo: thanks for the reviews!
22:34:45 <flo> -moz-mac-focusring is
22:35:18 <flo> aleth: you don't need to add checkin-needed to the 2 patches I just r+'ed ;)
22:35:45 <aleth> There is a special one for Mac? I asked the UX guys if there was a -moz-... for the focus ring colour and they said there wasn't
22:36:13 <flo> the UX guys aren't developers ;)
22:36:30 <flo> and yes, there's a special one for mac
22:36:37 <aleth> They don't bother with details like implementations? ;)
22:36:40 <flo> but the focusring color is blue
22:36:47 <flo> aleth: exactly ;)
22:37:29 <aleth> flo: I don't tend to usually if it;s you doing the reviewing, unless I do it automatically without thinking as I am used to it from getting r+ from clokep ;)
22:39:50 <aleth> flo: If the status type icon is not focusable, you'll only be able to open it with the down arrow, not space or Return as present. Is that discoverable enough?
22:40:43 <flo> aleth: another discoverability-related question: when the contact list gets focus, shouldn't we ensure something is selected if the list isn't empty?
22:40:53 <flo> it's hard to see it's focused if there's no selection
22:41:09 <aleth> flo: I was going to ask you about that actually, I wondered the same thing
22:41:35 <flo> :)
22:43:22 <aleth> I'm just concerned anyone will ever press the down arrow with the focus ring around the status box
22:43:45 <aleth> The icon lives in a different stack, so it's hard to draw a focus ring around both icon and message
22:44:22 <aleth> I guess maybe two separate focus rings at the same time?
22:46:24 <flo> aleth: in bug 1666, is there a reason why the code unconditionaly calls show.json after opening the timeline?
22:46:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1666 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Set twitter topic to the user's self-description
22:47:13 <aleth> requestBuddyInfo only does that if the info isn't already present.
22:47:18 <flo> aleth: or are we sure this._userInfo already contains the user's nick if there was a tweet from the user in the timeline?
22:47:44 <aleth> There is an if clause around the show.json call
22:47:44 <flo> so we are sure the timeline data has been fully processed by the time we call the conversation constructor?
22:48:35 <aleth> I don't know if that can be assumed. But why does it matter?
22:49:36 <flo> because we are going to do 4 HTTP requests instead of 3 at each connection, to fetch data that we have already received most of the time
22:50:20 <aleth> I don't understand. http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#947 prevents the HTTP request when it is not necessary
22:51:17 <flo> wouldn't this._userInfo be empty at the time this is executed?
22:51:37 <aleth> Generally, yes.
22:52:24 <aleth> Not if a message has already been displayed though.
22:53:30 <flo> yeah, you mean not if we are reconnecting an account that's been disconnected
22:53:42 <flo> but that's not the general case
22:53:43 <aleth> Yes, or opening the timeline conv for the second time
22:54:24 <aleth> Would you prefer to only call requestBuddyInfo after all pending messages have been displayed?
22:55:05 <flo> e
22:55:07 <flo> yes
22:55:45 <flo> I think I would prefer doing it instead of this code that is being removed: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#674
22:56:08 <aleth> Right
22:56:14 <aleth> That should work.
22:56:30 <flo> ok, that's my first review comment
22:56:40 <flo> the second one is: do we know if the user's description changes?
22:57:22 <aleth> From some other client the user is using in parallel? I don't think twitter notifies you of that.
22:57:45 <aleth> Next time you fetch the description, it will be changed though.
22:58:07 <aleth> It's not like the observer is removed until the conversation closes
22:58:19 <aleth> s/until/before
22:58:19 <flo> "Next time you fetch the description" that's after a restart, isn't it?
22:58:37 <flo> ah, maybe if you close the timeline
22:58:52 <aleth> Incoming tweets from yourself would do.
22:59:02 <aleth> Though hmm... that doesn't fire the observer
22:59:28 <aleth> Though it should. http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#565
23:00:06 <flo> twitter sends us most interesting events through the user stream
23:00:21 <flo> we handle some of them, but there are way more (the full list isn't documented of course)
23:00:27 <aleth> heh.
23:00:30 <flo> I'm wondering if we receive something on the stream about that
23:00:51 <flo> I'm talking about the code around http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#724 to line 748
23:01:19 <aleth> No idea.
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23:01:39 <aleth> Is it common for people to use two clients simultaneously?
23:01:57 <flo> if we can trivially support it we should
23:02:03 <aleth> (not meant as an excuse, just generally)
23:02:08 <flo> (ie if twitter sends us the data)
23:02:35 <flo> aleth: I suspect people using a client on their laptop and one on their phone/tablet is common
23:02:38 <aleth> I think there should be notifyObservers in the line I linked to, as it changes userInfo just like a requestBuddy call
23:02:53 <flo> aleth: it's also likely that users don't know they can change the description from Instantbird, so they would do it from the website instead
23:03:00 <aleth> Possibly here as well http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#744
23:03:32 <aleth> (not that that is relevant yet, but for consistency in future...)
23:03:32 <flo> I would prefer that we avoid it
23:03:45 <aleth> Avoid what?
23:03:58 <flo> adding random notifyObserver calls :)
23:04:18 <flo> the user-info-received notification currently mostly matches the number of requestBuddyInfo calls
23:04:25 <aleth> You'd have to check the object had changed
23:04:43 <flo> it shouldn't become a way to notify of status changes in a MUC ;)
23:04:43 <aleth> otherwise it fires far too often of course.
23:05:18 <flo> aleth: I mean we should fire it only if someone has requested it with that specific username
23:07:02 <aleth> Sure. But that's trivial for the moment (only one username is of interest)
23:07:22 <flo> and someday we should remove these poor notification and design a better API to update participant tooltips  ;)
23:08:00 <aleth> yes, the tooltip redesign day ;)
23:08:13 <flo> aleth: well, if you mean "only one username is of interest" I suspect you mean we should call .topic = <new description>, not notifyObservers
23:09:01 <aleth> flo: I was trying not to add code which will obviously break as soon as multiple timelines are added.
23:09:39 <aleth> but maybe that's premature...
23:10:44 <flo> you prefer code that breaks once there are multiple accounts? :-P
23:12:23 <aleth> I don't think that's the case ;)
23:13:35 <aleth> The thing to do is to see if there is any funky incoming notification from twitter when the description changes, I guess, if you think such a thing may exist
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23:15:40 <aleth> That would help
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23:20:10 <flo> I'm looking at that with my Tb-debug on one side, and ib debug + the current patch on the other side
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23:23:44 <flo> aleth: I receive this in the stream: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/68860
23:24:06 <aleth> event = user_update :)
23:24:07 <flo> aleth: "event": "user_update" :)
23:24:18 <flo> no excuse to not handle it
23:24:20 <flo> -> r- :-P
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23:24:27 <aleth> haha, no, thats great
23:26:05 <flo> aleth: note that I receive that event in the stream even before I receive the response from the user_update.json call
23:27:11 <aleth> You mean show.json?
23:28:56 <aleth> or update_profile?
23:30:35 <flo> update_profile
23:31:30 <aleth> Thanks.
23:31:40 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 1868 on bug 1666.
23:31:43 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1666 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Set twitter topic to the user's self-description
23:31:46 <flo> that patch felt r- anyway, it just took a while to figure out why
23:31:55 <flo> I'm looking forward to this feature though :)
23:32:49 <aleth> That can happen, if you know some code well, and something just doesn't fit right ;)
23:33:19 <flo> knowing if it's r+ or r- usually takes a few seconds
23:33:27 <flo> but finding why it's r- can take a loooong time :)
23:37:15 <aleth> Well, another one bites the dust :)
23:38:20 <aleth> Since I added some code to track the half-second pings from twitter to see if they stop when that unreproducible bug happens, the bug no longer happens :P
23:39:00 <flo> of course, it's always like that ;)
23:39:24 <aleth> s/half-second/half-minute
23:43:01 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/668dc68e5905 - aleth - Bug 1626 - Some screen readers say the word "frame" a lot when moving the selection in the contacts list, r=fqueze.
23:43:03 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/e11462508947 - Will Nayes - Bug 1650 - The value of list type options is not always preserved, r=clokep.
23:43:04 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/963c245d7f0d - Patrick Cloke - Bug 1615 - IRC CTCP messages break if there is a line break, r=aleth.
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