#instantbird log on 08 10 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:31:18 <flo> I've finally finished my patch for https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=741728
00:31:25 <flo> that was jb's pet bug, so I hope he'll be happy now :)
00:31:30 <flo> Good night
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02:47:52 <instant-buildbot> build #589 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/589
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04:34:09 <instant-buildbot> build #672 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/672
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06:11:43 <instant-buildbot> build #578 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/578
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09:33:33 <Kissaki> Hey.
09:33:39 <Kissaki> Can I order my groups in the contact list?
09:35:11 <Kissaki> and can Instantbird display the recent messages (most recent message history) when opening  a chat with that contact? can't find a setting nor addon for that.  Is there a feature-request-tracker?
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09:43:59 <aleth> Kissaki: Those are bug 958 and bug 1322, if you would like to cc yourself to them
09:44:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows
09:44:04 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1322 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Tags should be sorted using localeCompare
09:47:50 <Kissaki> aleth ah thanks
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10:09:07 * flo has finally got a real internet access at home! (I've been using my 3G phone as a modem during the last few weeks)
10:09:32 <flo> 22Mbps up/5M down. Not as good as I hoped, but it could have been much worse I guess.
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10:21:25 <flo> https://twitter.com/jcsteh/status/233723795901382656 https://twitter.com/jcsteh says "Vice President, NV Access Inc. Co-lead developer of NVDA screen reader."
10:21:36 <flo> sounds like we may continue to receive help to improve Instantbird's accessibility :)
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10:22:46 <aleth> oh good :)
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10:23:10 <aleth> Is that the guy who filed those bugs yesterday?
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11:06:04 <clokep_wp7> Well its good to have bugs filed against accesibility since it isn't the ki d of thing we run into daily...
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11:17:07 <flo> aleth: yes :)
11:38:04 <barlas> Is there any way to merge contacts other than dragging and dropping?
11:38:10 <barlas> Oh, and Good morning
11:38:26 <flo> no
11:38:33 <flo> what's wrong with a drag&drop?
11:38:41 <barlas> It doesn't scroll the contact list
11:39:09 <barlas> And the other contact is way below the screeen
11:39:24 <flo> right, that's a bug
11:39:28 <flo> I think it's filed already
11:41:35 <barlas>  Also, if there are conversation on hold, switching to contact list and typing characters doesn't start find as you type (or whatever you call it)
11:41:44 <barlas> I usually have to click on the contact list, and then press characters.
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12:28:01 <aleth> flo: Did that autoscroll restore-from hold patch fix your autoscroll bug as well?
12:28:28 <aleth> Never figured out what might be happening there...
12:28:34 <flo> aleth: I haven't seen it anymore
12:28:52 <flo> aleth: I assume it was the scrollIntoView of Bubbles that was causing the issue
12:30:03 <aleth> That's good news, but the key to what I fixed was the progress bar showing, so I wonder what played the corresponding role for what you were seeing
12:30:49 <flo> there was no progress bar in my case
12:31:02 <aleth> Yeah, that's what I mean...
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12:34:37 <aleth> Anyway, if it's gone, that's the main thing :)
12:34:49 <flo> yeah, congrats for that!
12:35:36 <barlas> Why are Instantbird logs on some other server, instead of on instantbird?
12:35:53 * barlas wonders if he asks too many questions :)
12:38:32 <flo> you mean why bezut.info ?
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12:40:09 <barlas> Yep
12:42:51 <flo> because instantbot was set-up by Moria n, and bezut is Moria n's last name
12:52:26 * barlas has no idea who Moria n is.
12:52:43 <barlas> In other words, it's not 'official' bot?
12:55:36 <flo> what's official, what is not?
12:55:53 <flo> if *I* trust it, does that make it official?
12:57:28 <aleth> Some comments on the blog... The last one is a bit odd, maybe based on a misunderstanding
12:57:49 <aleth> barlas: It's in the topic ;)
12:58:24 <barlas> Yes, but it's not on instanbird.com/org/im/fr :)
12:58:45 <aleth> Does that matter?
12:59:08 <barlas> Other than that it doesn't feel official, no.
12:59:42 <flo> barlas: then it's not official for you.
12:59:53 <flo> barlas: it's still useful for me
12:59:59 <barlas> flo: heh
13:00:06 <flo> anyway, nothing that we say here is official. The official statements are on the blog ;).
13:02:40 <barlas> flo: Usually the difference is, that if it is not official, the person who host it can just turn it off if they feel like it (not saying they would), but if it is somewhat official, hosted on official site, it would more likely to last even if individuals change.
13:03:27 <flo> barlas: I own all the "official" domains, so if I suddenly disappeared, other people would have a hard time keeping the sites up ;)
13:03:36 <barlas> heh
13:03:41 <flo> barlas: and Even owns a significant part of the infrastructure
13:04:15 <flo> barlas: and all the financial costs are currently covered by Even and me, so again, if we disappeared, some of the "official" services would be in trouble
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13:04:36 <barlas> BTW usually when I ask/discuss these sandom things, I don't always mean you should do the way I think they should be done, I am just a very curious person :)
13:04:36 <flo> barlas: we don't plan on disappearing though, if that was your concern ;)
13:05:01 <barlas> Mostly just curious :)
13:05:04 <flo> barlas: and I really want to shift some of the infrastructure to things managed by Mozilla, or at least for which we can easily give passwords to active contributors 
13:05:40 <barlas> But this isn't 'officially' mozilla's project, right? :P
13:05:59 * barlas has no idea what makes any project part of mozilla, officially or not.
13:06:30 <flo> barlas: it's a difficult question. Nobody has ever been able to explain to me how a project becomes Mozilla if it wasn't Mozila when it started.
13:07:34 <aleth> flo: I think you set up arewemozillayet.com
13:07:56 <flo> aleth: the idea seems awesome
13:08:19 <flo> aleth: but I think it would actually be counter productive to show in advance that we have an ulterior motive for the "small" things we ask one at a time ;)
13:08:33 <aleth> :D
13:08:50 * flo has already set-up a not-so-useful domain ami6.fr, that's enough for this week
13:09:00 <aleth> I wasn't serious ;) for that it would have to be Awesome(TM) ;)
13:09:13 <flo> no, Splendid!
13:09:46 <aleth> ah yes :)
13:11:36 <barlas> About the topic bar in conversation (in IRC), are there any plans to make links clickable in it?
13:12:13 <barlas> Or to implement the /topic command (the empty /topic command, that shows the current topic)
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13:12:39 <aleth> barlas: /help topic tells me that's not what the /topic command does ;)
13:13:06 <barlas> Hmm.. never read it's help, but that is how it is implemented on pretty much all clients
13:13:18 <aleth> And as for "plans", I think there's a bug for it, but if you really want it... you know what to do ;)
13:14:07 <aleth> barlas: How do you clear the topic on "pretty much all clients"?
13:14:32 <barlas> Well, not everything that can be coded can be included in the app :) What if no one wants to add that feature in core even if someone else is coding it? It's better to ask I think :)
13:14:50 <barlas> aleth: I don't know :) Let me try
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13:15:27 <aleth> It's not straightforward. Clicking on the topic lets you edit it. So how do you distinguish between that and clicking links? How do you "scroll" if necessary?
13:16:41 <barlas> Here is the /help topic from 'Quassel', it's similar in Konversation and X-Chat, IIRC:
13:16:45 <barlas> 704 topic TOPIC <#channel> :[new topic]
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic With only a channel argument, TOPIC shows the current topic of
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic the specified channel.
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic With a second argument, it changes the topic on that channel to
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic <new topic>.  If the channel is +t, only chanops may change the
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic topic.
13:16:46 <barlas> 705 topic
13:16:49 <barlas> 705 topic See also: cmode
13:16:49 <barlas> 706 topic End of /HELP.
13:17:07 <barlas> Ooops, that was too long, didn't feel like that in simple text :/
13:17:34 <aleth> Does that really seem better to you?
13:18:22 <aleth> We don't particularly care what other clients do if it's not better.
13:18:37 <barlas> aleth: In all my IRC usage, I have set topic only 2 or 3 times, but I often check the current topic. so yeah :) It does feel better to me.
13:19:05 <aleth> But the topic is already displayed all the time...
13:19:21 <barlas> It's not clickable :(
13:19:38 <barlas> And I can't copy/paste.
13:19:46 <flo> btw, goofy (who was here yesterday or the day before) edited http://wiki.mozfr.org/IRC_et_la_communaut%C3%A9_francophone#Comment_.C3.A7a_marche_.3F for me. I "complained" to him that having that page recommand ChatZilla or Pidgin wasn't really great
13:21:11 <barlas> You can also, just make the title bar expandable on click (increase it's height on click to show full topic) and make the text selectable :)
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13:21:34 <barlas> meh
13:21:46 <aleth> Yes, you really want to fix bug 735, not the /topic command ;)
13:21:49 <flo> make the text selectable inside clickable links?
13:21:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=735 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Links in topic/status text should be clickable
13:22:24 <flo> or should we require a double click to edit?
13:22:36 <aleth> He only wants to select because he can't click ;)
13:22:37 <flo> that would need a tooltip to explain it :(
13:22:54 <flo> aleth: ! :)
13:23:48 <barlas> flo: Pidgin is nice :)
13:23:58 <barlas> And Chatzilla still works great :P
13:24:20 <flo> barlas: and the kick command is also splendidly awesome ;)
13:24:28 <barlas> Hehe
13:24:45 <aleth> flo: Nice :) Do you think he would edit the english version of that page as well?
13:25:03 <flo> aleth: he's leading the French team
13:25:13 <aleth> Ah, that helps.
13:25:14 <flo> for the en-US page, we should just do it ourselves ;)
13:25:25 <barlas> About the topic bar, if it is not expanded to show full topic, that would still mean half the links won't be click-able.
13:25:33 <aleth> I thought someone tried and ran into trouble...
13:25:40 <aleth> I forget what is was though
13:25:49 <flo> barlas: have you noticed that the full topic is in the conversation when you join it and each time the topic is changed?
13:25:53 <aleth> barlas: Sure, that's the UI design problem.
13:26:29 <barlas> flo: I think I misread your comment on the bug.
13:26:42 <barlas> Which one is topic notification bar?
13:27:00 <barlas> The one on top that currently shows topic, or something that is already gone?
13:27:23 <flo> it's gone
13:27:28 <barlas> Ok
13:29:00 <barlas> flo: Yes, but there is too much to scroll to get to the topic we get on join :) 
13:29:17 <flo> barlas: one keypress is too much?
13:29:43 <barlas> Which keypress is that?
13:29:51 <flo> Home
13:29:51 <aleth> "Home" vs "/topic+RETURN" ;)
13:30:17 <flo> "/to<tab><return>" ;)
13:30:32 <barlas> Hmm...
13:31:34 <barlas> Home wasn't taking me to top before, it was taking me to where I disconnected and reconnected (which was also the same as my last removing conversation from hold)
13:32:33 <aleth> Press it twice or use Ctrl+Home ;)
13:32:52 <barlas> aleth: That is more than one keypress now isn't it :P
13:32:59 <barlas> BTW I don't really care about this too much.
13:33:14 <barlas> As long as I have some easy way to get to topic and click on the links. I would be happy.
13:33:17 <aleth> Anyway, my point earlier was more that while clickable topic links would be wanted, coming up with a good UI for it is hard.
13:33:29 <aleth> If you have any ideas please add them to the bug!
13:33:33 <flo> aleth: what about emoticons? ;)
13:34:15 <aleth> flo: Don't... ;)
13:34:33 <flo> animated emoticons indicating the progress of the file transfer? :)
13:34:58 <aleth> I'd prefer little dropdown menus to select my current mood.
13:34:59 <flo> that emoticon should be visible through the webcam stream of course
13:35:22 <flo> aleth: would there be an option "in the mood of kicking someone out of #instantbird" in the list? ;)
13:35:43 <aleth> flo: I think clokep wanted to design a UI for that ;)
13:35:57 <barlas> Heh
13:36:08 <flo> if we need some dogfooding, maybe I should unban someone? ;)
13:36:37 * barlas usually disables all emoticons.
13:37:11 <barlas> I wonder how my chat would look like to someone with emoticons switched on, I use way too many :) and :P
13:38:03 <aleth> I think there's even an add-on for animated emoticons
13:38:18 <flo> an emoticon theme, ues
13:38:19 <flo> *yes
13:38:25 <flo> but that didn't work as intended
13:45:31 <Mic> Yes, it's only showing the animation once :(
13:45:48 <Mic> I use the theme anyways because the icons look nice :)
13:46:50 <Mic> hmm, now it worked while the smiling : ) icon was used by aleth before already.
13:47:21 <flo> Mic: is it fixed with the newer mozilla versions?
13:47:42 <flo> I remember I saw some discussions that looked promising in some bug reports, but I never checked if it was fixed
13:48:18 <Mic> I tried in another channels seconds before and it didn't work there at least.
13:48:24 <Mic> *channel
13:53:57 <dew> how hard would it be to build an irc bot using instantbird?
13:53:57 <flo> so it's random? :(
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14:10:10 <flo> New proposal for the Tb theme: http://andreasn.myownb3.com/temp/irc-chat.png
14:10:11 <flo> thoughts?
14:14:26 <Mic> The long lines are hard to read, the indentation of the second and later lines of multi-line messages looks wrong and the time at the end of the line gets lost in the message? :(
14:14:57 <Mic> :o
14:15:20 <flo> Mic: isn't it much better than the current theme, though? :)
14:15:48 <Mic> My current theme is Bubbles and it is definitely better? :P
14:16:00 <Mic> Well, I don't know what the current Tb theme looks like, I have to admit.
14:16:27 <Mic> I try to have a look at Tb chat every few weeks..
14:16:28 <flo> Mic: worse than anything you can imagine :-P
14:16:58 <Mic> Is the ": " in front of the message maybe a :before { content: ": ";}
14:17:14 <Mic> That might explain the indentation.
14:17:14 <flo> Mic: it's bubbles with timestamps for each message on the right side, no bubble tail (so incoming/outgoing look the same), no color at all, and 1px colorless borders
14:17:25 <flo> Mic: I think it is
14:17:54 <flo> oh, I hadn't noticed it's not even grouping the next messages :-S
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14:47:20 <Mic> Nice, clokep blogged about the release  :)
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14:48:17 <flo> again?
14:49:33 <Mic> No, I meant the posting that you already commented at.
14:51:51 <barlas> flo: I like the font in that theme :)
14:52:36 <barlas> And I haven't seen the current tb theme, but including the modifications Mic mentioned, this could be pretty nice.
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15:03:46 <Mic> wnayes: a random thing that I spotted: http://hg.instantbird.org/users/wnayes/rev/db58c2cc4b5e#l4.164
15:04:13 <flo> wnayes: if there are still things you need to ask me, you shouldn't wait too much ;).
15:04:45 <wnayes> Mic: Thanks, haven't caught that one yet :)
15:05:14 <wnayes> flo: Have you thought of any other suggestions for the welcome page?
15:05:35 <flo> I'm not sure of where we stopped our thinking
15:08:00 <wnayes> The questions were surrounding whether it should run on wizard load or be user initiated, and how the Next/Skip buttons should be used.
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15:09:39 <flo> do we have the pros&cons for the 2 possibilities?
15:10:25 <flo> I was a bit confused because iirc you said at some point that it's fast enough that we don't need to run the detection in the background, and then that it was too slow for just doing it without asking the user first :-S.
15:13:03 <wnayes> I'm thinking now that I am seeing just the regular render of the windows and thought there was background threading issues.
15:14:04 <flo> is this a debug build you are running? They are very slow, and probably even slower on Windows
15:14:22 <wnayes> There's varying delays between when the window is visible and when the content actually appears, but this happens in every IB window to some extent.
15:14:45 <wnayes> I'm not sure it's something that would want to be done on every wizard load, as it is not as frequently needed as just adding an account.
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15:19:31 <wnayes> flo: These items are a step in the right direction, right :)? http://i46.tinypic.com/14l7e5j.png
15:20:39 <flo> Looks so much better
15:20:47 <flo> I think you still need to tweak the borders between accounts
15:21:09 <flo> and the "Add another account" button at that place seems like a good idea, but I'm afraid you'll be disappointed
15:22:13 <flo> wnayes: so where has the "connect automatically" checkbox disappeared?
15:22:38 <flo> wnayes: on Mac the wizard looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/h5BSZ.png
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15:23:55 <wnayes> flo: There just was no room for the checkbox that I could find :( The wizards are really tight on space.
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15:24:24 <wnayes> It could possibly be on the line with the username, but it might end up cropping emails
15:25:18 <flo> I'm afraid the button will have to go back under the richlistbox, even if that decreases the total count of accounts we can display
15:25:41 <flo> do we expect people who have a dozen of accounts to import to not know how to scroll? :)
15:26:23 <flo> you may still save a little vertical space by reducing the vertical whitespace before/after each line of text
15:26:30 <flo> (for each account I meant)
15:27:10 <wnayes> flo: The extra2 (add account) button must have some placement on mac too? The wizard places buttons based on OS I imagine.
15:27:30 <flo> ok, it's a standard extra button? Never mind then :)
15:27:43 <flo> I thought you hacked something to put it there :)
15:30:53 <wnayes> The wizard has a couple extra1, extra2 buttons that default to that location (conveniently). It is difficult to have the combobox items have the same height without the whitespace being there.
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15:58:21 <flo> ah, stupid combo box :(
16:03:57 <wnayes> If there was a way to draw it without anything but the text/droparrow, that could help. Though that might make it less noticeable.
16:05:19 <flo> it would be confusing
16:07:08 <aleth> Looks like an Australis bug: https://minus.com/mLJ4DbiMW/
16:07:49 <aleth> The tab outline colour doesn't match the horizontal line...
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16:12:20 <aleth> Hmm, I guess that should go to #maildev...
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16:16:51 <flo> hmm, I wonder if I scrolled up myself or if I've just seen the auto-scroll bug again :-S
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17:57:17 <aleth> strating to see the release spike... http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/
17:57:40 <flo> ah, nice :)
17:58:34 <aleth> I hear ichat is gone on Mountain Lion... maybe we'll pick up some people looking for a replacement ;)
18:00:25 <flo> I heard it's improved in Mountain Lion :)
18:00:42 <aleth> Probably in the eye of the beholder then ;)
18:02:12 <aleth> ah, they just renamed/redesigned it
18:02:44 <instantbot> Just appeared in Pidgin News - default :
18:02:45 <instantbot> http://blog.wasilczyk.pl/en/2012/libpurple-api-changes-for-better-gadu-gadu-support/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=libpurple-api-changes-for-better-gadu-gadu-support - Tomasz Wasilczyk: Libpurple API changes for better Gadu-Gadu support
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18:03:03 <aleth> How timely :)
18:03:19 <aleth> (at least I hope that fixes those bugs that got mail today)
18:03:56 <aleth> hmm, maybe not
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18:30:03 <rosonline> Hi everyone!
18:31:06 <aleth> hi rosonline
18:31:22 <rosonline> i'm looking for billysanca
18:31:33 <rosonline> about the brazilian translations
18:31:47 <aleth> Yes, what happened to them? :-/
18:32:31 <aleth> I don't think he is on IRC... flo might know if he has an alias
18:32:46 <aleth> but he is not here atm
18:33:48 <aleth> Maybe send an email?
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18:39:35 <rosonline> ok
18:45:06 <rosonline> I don't know nothing about the Tortoise HG things
18:45:35 <rosonline> i'm translatting with a text editor
18:46:12 <aleth> That should be fine
18:46:24 <aleth> Did you have trouble understanding the wiki?
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18:47:59 <aleth> Unfortunately I don't know much about how localisation works. It's possible you need billysanca to add you to the list of people who can upload things
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19:00:40 <rosonline> OK
19:01:30 <rosonline> I'll back tomorrow. I going to translate now
19:12:26 <aleth> Great :) I hope you can reach billysanca so you don't duplicate efforts...
19:27:56 <rosonline> Ok
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22:00:52 * wnayes has had no shortage of frustrations with the <wizard> control, and now may have found a bug in it...
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22:48:24 <wnayes> My first mozilla-central bug and patch :) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=781956
22:49:21 <aleth> congrats :)
22:49:52 <aleth> You might want to ask on #developers who to ask for review, just in case it doesn't get picked up properly otherwise
22:51:38 <aleth> That must have been frustrating, until you figured out it was actually a bug in the control...
22:52:31 <aleth> Also, put the tracking bug in the "blocks" field https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=596002
22:55:01 <wnayes> Hmm, where do I edit that field?
22:55:19 <aleth> In the bug you filed, set "Blocks" to 596002
22:55:39 <wnayes> I should be able to work around it, but it would be nice to fix :)
22:55:48 <aleth> Yes :)
22:56:16 <aleth> And flo can always take the patch early for IB if we need it sooner...
22:57:41 <wnayes> This has probably sent out more emails than I've ever sent in one day :)
22:58:08 <aleth> Could be ;)
23:06:57 <wnayes> Looks like flo set the review flag :)
23:07:35 <aleth> lurking, eh? ;)
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