#instantbird log on 06 18 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:12:08 <instant-buildbot> build #246 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/246
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00:20:40 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1622 on bug 385.
00:20:41 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1623 on bug 385.
00:20:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
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01:37:02 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1227 to FIXED.
01:37:06 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1227 nor, --, 1.2, raynaudquentin, RESO FIXED, client.py should call itself on some instances
01:37:53 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1486 to FIXED.
01:37:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1486 nor, --, ---, florian, RESO FIXED, Update to Mozilla 13
01:44:08 * clokep would really like to move a lot of the system messages from chats to the UI layer...
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02:02:27 <clokep> This confuses me :-S http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird/browse_frm/thread/d66360d67189db05/394ec850eb241378?tvc=1#394ec850eb241378
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03:02:04 <instant-buildbot> build #532 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/532
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04:01:34 <instant-buildbot> build #623 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/623
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06:17:49 <instant-buildbot> build #522 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/522
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09:01:27 <Mic> Hi
09:01:49 <aleth> Hi Mic
09:01:51 <aleth> moz13 is working fine :)
09:01:59 <Mic> Not for me ;)
09:02:00 <aleth> apart from the square show nicks :P
09:02:09 <Mic> :o
09:02:16 <Mic> The Windows nightly hasn't finished yet.
09:02:19 <aleth> -moz-border-radius is deprecated
09:02:41 <Mic> Are we using it elsewhere too?
09:02:51 <aleth> Doesn't look like it
09:03:10 <Mic> lxr doesn't return any results.
09:04:09 <Mic> Neither does it for moz-box-shadow
09:04:55 <Mic> And the -moz-column-fill error should go away now :)
09:05:16 <Mic> I wonder why someone used it before it was implemented though ;)
09:07:01 <Mic> I'm thinking of your review btw but I'm not on Aero today and can't do it right away :(
09:07:40 <aleth> No worries, it doesn't have strings after all ;)
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09:12:56 <flo> hello :)
09:13:00 <Mic> Hi flo
09:13:23 <flo> clokep: what's confusing about that thread?
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09:25:04 <flo> Mic: what makes you think it's called with only the username for IRC?
09:27:24 <Mic> I logged it to the console iirc
09:27:47 <Mic> Give me a moment and I'll apply the patch and check again.
09:45:29 <Mic> Seems I did something silly then...
09:45:43 <flo> I think you just read the code that passes the username ;)
09:46:04 <flo> but the username is all the fields of the username step of the wizard joined together ;)
09:46:18 <flo> it's the confusing user name split concept that we inherited from libpurple
09:46:34 <Mic> No, I actually logged something and it didn't contain the server name. 
09:54:50 <flo> pff, the patches from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=756277 don't apply to moz13.0.1 :(
09:55:31 <instant-buildbot> build #625 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/625
09:56:22 <aleth> BMO is down?
09:56:49 <Mic> No, not for me
09:56:54 <aleth> A lot of annoying warnings have gone from the error console with moz13 :)
09:57:12 <flo> I'm annoyed that it doesn't want to build on Windows though ;)
09:57:45 <aleth> That's not the best way for it to avoid annoying warnings, I agree ;)
09:58:00 <aleth> Oh dear, is that the bug you were worried about for moz13?
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10:04:40 <Mic> AH! It wasn't IRC but GTalk that had this problem.
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10:08:52 <clokep> flo: Well 1. He called it "Instantbird" component instead of "chat", 2. He's complaining about leaks in an unreleased feature. It just seems to have no bearing on the conversation.
10:14:09 <flo> clokep: what's that about?
10:14:23 <flo> my above comment was about the thread about Tb 64bit on Windows
10:14:29 <clokep> flo: So was mine.
10:14:32 <clokep> I had linked to a specific post in it.
10:15:09 <flo> that link sends me to the top of the thread
10:15:55 <clokep> Google Groups is awful.
10:16:16 <clokep> http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird/tree/browse_frm/thread/d66360d67189db05/6239b94aa86c526c?rnum=11&_done=%2Fgroup%2Fmozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Fd66360d67189db05%2F394ec850eb241378%3Ftvc%3D1%26#doc_c2d280cad783c416
10:16:17 <clokep> Works for me.
10:16:25 <flo> ah, Philip Chee's message
10:16:29 <flo> that's non sense
10:16:34 <clokep> Yes.
10:17:42 <flo> now I need to find a Thunderbird to reply :-S
10:17:52 <flo> (I mean, one that works)
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10:20:45 <clokep> Ah, win32 builds failed, didn't realize that.
10:20:58 <clokep> aleth: I briefly looked at your patches and they look right.
10:21:11 <clokep> But I do agree with flo that it seems we'd really want to move these messages to jsProtoHelper. :)
10:21:54 <aleth> I don't disagree with that...
10:22:12 <clokep> (If not imConversations.js)
10:22:17 <aleth> File a bug?
10:22:19 <aleth> ;)
10:22:31 * flo has replied in the thread
10:22:32 <flo> clokep: thanks
10:22:34 <clokep> bug 1230
10:22:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1230 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Join/part messages should be handled by imConversations.js.
10:22:39 <clokep> flo: You're welcome.
10:22:48 <aleth> aha!
10:23:05 <aleth> Never saw that one.
10:23:22 <clokep> Not the set topic stuff exactly, but same concept.
10:23:51 <aleth> Yes, it seems like those should all be done together.
10:24:38 <flo> clokep: Is gerv actually saying that you/we should request 3 groups? ;)
10:25:25 <clokep> flo: I haven't read that email yet. ;)
10:26:09 <clokep> aleth: And I think for Twitter not having these messages...you're right we should override it in it's own implementation?
10:26:59 <flo> aleth: I think overriding things in twitter.js to special case is fine
10:27:02 <aleth> and I suspect the same would hold for join/part for twitter.
10:27:26 <flo> well, twitter is weird :(
10:27:46 <flo> as some point we may need to create a special conversation type for timelines instead of real MUCs
10:27:46 <aleth> So I guess bug 1230 should go on the 1.3 list, to be done before any more protocols are added...
10:27:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1230 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Join/part messages should be handled by imConversations.js.
10:28:08 <flo> aleth: it should also be done when someone is serious about fixing XMPP MUCs ;)
10:28:10 <clokep> Yeah. I have a WIP for 1230 around.
10:28:16 <clokep> But it doesn't work. :-D
10:28:25 <aleth> XMPP MUCs don't work? :o
10:28:32 <clokep> The issue I had is making it so join messages appear only after the chat is initialized, I think.
10:28:47 <flo> aleth: the "work", but with missing features
10:29:04 <flo> topics aren't handled at all (not even displayed in the topic toolbar) and join/part system messages are missing
10:29:07 <flo> *they
10:29:39 <flo> also, private messages to MUC participants don't work right now
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10:32:16 <aleth> Sounds like gtalk users don't use MUCs much, or there might have been complaints... 
10:32:31 <flo> I may be the only one using them ;)
10:32:48 <aleth> owait bug 1510
10:32:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1510 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Support MUCs in GTalk
10:33:09 <flo> different bug :)
10:33:19 <clokep> I used one for the first time on Friday actually.
10:33:31 <clokep> flo: It does sound like Gerv is saying to request whatever we want.
10:33:37 <flo> clokep: how were you in the pidgin devel room?
10:33:37 <aleth> Sure, but noone is going to file bugs about MUC details if they can't even join them...
10:33:49 <aleth> clokep: Sounds like good news :)
10:34:22 <clokep> flo: I'm in the Pidgin devel room w/ a @jabber account, I think.
10:34:44 <clokep> flo: Yes, it's my clokep@jabber.org account.
10:34:54 <flo> clokep: how does that make a difference? :-S
10:35:01 <clokep> flo: It's libpurple, isn't it?
10:35:09 <flo> ah
10:35:22 <flo> yes, it is
10:37:08 <clokep> And I meant a chat room in the GTalk/GMail interface
10:37:10 <clokep> :)
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10:47:34 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1624 on bug 1511.
10:47:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1511 nor, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Possible to add duplicate accounts
10:48:21 * flo is applying the XHR patch by hand
10:48:34 <flo> anybody volunteering to fix show nick? :)
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10:58:24 <clokep> I can review it. ;)
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11:05:38 * flo pats instantbot
11:05:39 <instantbot> :)
11:05:47 <flo> I dislike C++ too today :)
11:05:48 * instantbot frowns at flo
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11:23:26 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/f399b21eb75b - Florian Quèze - Adapt the patch from 'Bug 756277 - XMLHttpRequest started from XPCOM ends up bound to some random window' for Mozilla 13.
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11:40:47 <instant-buildbot> build #265 of win32-onCommit is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/265  blamelist: Florian Qu?ze <florian@instantbird.org>
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12:18:11 <clokep_work> flo: So, do we want to request all three of those then or some subset?
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12:22:18 <flo> aleth: bug 1405 seems completely unrelated to releases
12:22:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1405 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Replace Wiki main page with Developer page
12:23:19 <aleth> But it's been sitting there for ages waiting for review anyway, so it would be nice to do before the 1.2 traffic ;)
12:23:44 <flo> aleth: adding pointless 1.2 whiteboard annotations is just noise
12:24:08 <flo> it's definitely not an acceptable way to request some attention on a bug that has nothing to do with 1.2 ;)
12:24:24 <aleth> It wasn't meant to be noise :-S I assumed there would be some other website-related things to be done before release
12:24:41 <flo> it's still unrelated to the release
12:25:32 <aleth> Sorry.
12:25:39 <flo> ah, it's possible I misread it, sorry
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12:26:08 <flo> I read just the title and the component is wiki.i.o
12:26:12 <aleth> It just seemed a good time to do it before a bump in traffic etc
12:26:19 <flo> but there's a patch in there that requires string changes on www.ib.com
12:26:27 <aleth> Yes exactly
12:26:32 <flo> so yeah, string changes there need to happen at the time we update the website
12:27:07 <flo> "before a bump in traffic" from my point of view it's "at the time localizers will look at the website again" ;)
12:27:15 <aleth> Yup...
12:28:04 * flo added another annotation to not misread that bug again the next time he stumbles on it
12:28:40 <flo> sorry about that, and thanks for bringing attention to it :)
12:28:58 <aleth> I had completely forgotten about it too...
12:29:48 <clokep_work> The patch seem good in it? ;)
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12:31:08 <flo> aarg, I verified my XHR patch, noticed that it didn't build, fixed it ... and pushed the previous version :(
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12:33:28 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/f4c02bd3b2d0 - Florian Quèze - Fix bustage from f399b21eb75b.
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13:25:59 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1621 on bug 385.
13:26:00 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1623 on bug 385.
13:26:02 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1625 on bug 385.
13:26:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
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13:36:52 <clokep_work> I really don't like the patch in bug 385. It seems way overly complicated.
13:36:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
13:37:33 <instant-buildbot> build #266 of win32-onCommit is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/266  blamelist: Florian Qu?ze <florian@instantbird.org>
13:40:08 <aleth> clokep_work: The original patch was really simple. If you can see an easier way to remember passwords, that would be great
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13:41:15 <aleth> Actually I may have jsut thought of one :-/
13:41:18 <clokep_work> aleth: Add a method that joins chats, it takes a channel name and password parameter and then keeps a map of them?
13:42:36 <aleth> Yes, just storing the last used password would do. I think I complicated things initially by worrying about non-existent special cases.
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13:45:56 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1625 on bug 385.
13:45:59 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
13:46:34 <clokep_work> aleth: FYI I wonder if this is the same issue Mic|web  is having with restoring conversations. ;)
13:46:54 <clokep_work> (I.e. that the purpleChatFields or whatever it's called, that were used to make a conversation need to bes tored somewhere)
13:47:33 <aleth> Maybe.
13:48:11 <flo> is it difficult to keep a reference to the purpleChatFields object?
13:48:26 <aleth> It doesn't always exist.
13:50:24 <aleth> I'll have to think about it a bit more to see if I can make the patch Mic-friendly ;)
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13:55:50 <Mic|web> aleth: when doesn't it exist? I thought that's what gets passed as parameter to the accounts joinchat method?
13:56:29 <aleth> Mic|web: You can open chats via commands too. Though I was just thinking I will abolish that for IRC at least.
13:57:00 <clokep_work> aleth: I think I've stated previously that we shouldn't be sending that signal directly for the join command and it should be calling a join method on the account.
13:57:14 <Mic|web> Ah and that doesn't get the chat room default fields and calls the account join chat method?
13:57:21 <aleth> You might have stated it, but you didn't write it that way ;)
13:57:43 <aleth> Mic|web: Yes, it shortcircuits it.
13:57:51 <aleth> But as we're all agreed I'll change that.
14:01:29 <aleth> I wonder if the same issue exists for other protocols?
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14:12:00 <flo> I'm glad https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=760704 is no longer a totally strange bug without steps to reproduce
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14:31:41 <Mic|web> Any ideas regarding this error: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/46097 ?
14:32:19 <Mic|web> (e.g. "no, you can't create elements from the xul namespace in the hidden window"?)
14:33:44 <flo> you can't from a content window
14:34:09 <flo> getHiddenHTMLWindow purposefully returns an HTML unprivileged window
14:34:50 <clokep_work> Mic|web: What is that extension?
14:35:56 <flo> Mic|web: btw, why would you want an hbox in the hidden window?
14:35:59 <Mic|web> It's an experiment to show a sort of timeline next to the scrollbar of MUCs
14:36:22 <Mic|web> To tell the width/height of the scrollbar to figure out how much space I need at top/bottom for the scroll buttons
14:36:49 <Mic|web> Ofcourse that's not absolutely reliable but better than nothing ;)
14:37:39 <flo> can you get *any* computed width/height values from an element that's never been displayed on the screen?
14:37:56 <flo> I would expect the frames to be created lazily
14:38:34 <Mic|web> That's how they get the width of the scrollbar in "AutocompletePopup.jsm".
14:38:39 <Mic|web> That's where I got this idea from.
14:39:22 <flo> I don't see any reference to the hidden window in that file
14:40:21 <Mic|web> Ah, that's what you meant. Sorry I misunderstood you then.
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14:42:44 <clokep_work> Does "For development of chat (including text, voice and video) related topics in Mozilla-based products (e.g. Thunderbird and Instantbird). This includes protocol implementations and other code in the chat/ directory of these products."
14:42:46 <clokep_work> Make sense?
14:44:24 <flo> It does. Do you want to talk about the chat/ directory or the chat module?
14:44:34 <clokep_work> chat module, yes. :)
14:45:06 <clokep_work> "This includes protocol implementations and all code in the chat module." then is the last sentence
14:45:56 <flo> "all the code in the chat module" or "all the discussions related to the chat module"?
14:46:54 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1626 on bug 385.
14:46:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
14:47:11 * Mic|web (ab)uses the contact list window now and it actually works now :)
14:47:17 <Mic|web> ... media queries and all :)
14:47:36 <flo> Mic|web: the contact list window can be closed on Mac
14:48:56 <Mic|web> I know (and currently that 's not a big deal).
14:52:47 <flo> I was just wondering why you don't take the conversation window (as it seems your add-on is related to converstions?)
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14:57:23 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com denied review for attachment 1626 on bug 385.
14:57:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
14:59:14 <Mic|web> Eventually I might do that
14:59:46 <aleth> So it is time for /j to die? :)
15:00:04 <-- FireFly_TC has quit (Ping timeout)
15:01:08 <flo> is someone volunteering for work on the command aliases? :)
15:04:27 <aleth> clokep_work: So it's possible for the server to just send us a JOIN that we haven't requested, adding us to a channel? I didn't know that.
15:05:42 --> jb1 has joined #instantbird
15:06:03 <clokep_work> aleth: Well it's possible if someone does something like /quote JOIN #blah <blah> ;)
15:06:11 <clokep_work> Or if a broken add-on manually sends JOIN commands.
15:06:49 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout)
15:06:55 <flo> if someone else /invite us, what do we receive?
15:12:07 <clokep_work> I think we receive an INVITE
15:12:09 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout)
15:12:21 <clokep_work> But in that situation we also wouldn't have the components saved.
15:12:42 <clokep_work> aleth: I think the way to do this btw is in the constructor of the MUC, check if the components exist, otherwise build it as best as you can.
15:12:52 <clokep_work> But I'm not sure if you're goign to switch it to only saving passwords or not.
15:13:08 <flo> apparently INVITE isn't very well supported http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/irc/ircBase.jsm#196
15:13:16 <aleth>  /invite doesn't seem to work :-/
15:13:55 <clokep_work> aleth: Fix it?! ;)
15:13:59 <clokep_work> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765741 for anyone interested
15:14:27 <aleth> Nice :)
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15:16:33 <instantbot> New Core - IRC bug 1519 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
15:16:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1519 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, /invite doesn't work
15:16:49 --> igorko has joined #instantbird
15:20:58 * clokep_work wonders why that bug hasn't appeared in his email yet...
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15:55:42 <clokep_work> Any thoughts on http://pastebin.instantbird.com/46111 (aleth  Mic?)
15:56:39 <flo> context: we are requesting official Mozilla news groups to replace our public mailing lists
15:57:13 <flo> they are accessible through nntp, email (mailman) and google groups, so that should be more usable than the google groups we have
15:57:20 <clokep_work> (Which would be a linked, newsgroup, mailing list and google group)
16:00:43 <clokep_work> Ah, you beat me to that one. ;)
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16:03:31 <flo> The video from https://air.mozilla.org/product-design-at-mozilla/ is online ; you can skip to 25'23 if you only care about the presence part.
16:03:40 * jwir3|away is now known as jwir3
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16:07:02 <clokep_work> Is the rest worth listening to?
16:07:08 <clokep_work> I mean I guess it's Limi, so probably. :)
16:07:15 * clokep_work puts it on in the background...
16:07:22 <flo> if you are interested in Firefox's strategy yes.
16:07:31 <flo> if you are interested only in Instantbird/XMPP, no
16:07:41 <clokep_work> FYI: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765769
16:08:18 <flo> the presence part finishes at 30'33
16:08:23 --> jb has joined #instantbird
16:09:56 <clokep_work> Is it worth requesting a mozilla.dev.apps.instantbird group? We don't tend to do much development over email...
16:10:01 --> myk has joined #instantbird
16:12:42 <flo> we don't do it right now, but do we want to do it?
16:13:11 <clokep_work>  / do we think other people might be more inclined to request info over that instead of over IRC
16:15:10 <flo> I think it may be easier than reading the irc log everyday
16:15:26 <flo> especially if the irc traffic keeps increasing
16:16:20 <flo> but I'm not sure we would need it now
16:23:14 <clokep_work> Right...
16:23:18 * clokep_work is on the fence.
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16:24:02 <clokep_work> flo: So you made that demo?
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16:24:37 <flo> yeah
16:25:12 <clokep_work> Cool. :)
16:25:21 <clokep_work> Looks fancy.
16:25:33 <flo> I would like to push that forward a bit, either as a Firefox feature if limi gets encouraging feedback, or as an "Instantbird light" Firefox add-on to encourage people to download a real IM client ;)
16:25:59 <clokep_work> Right. :)
16:26:08 <clokep_work> Nice thing about Instantbird light is it could include GPL stuff. ;)
16:26:30 <flo> Limi said only Gtalk and Facebook chat matter ;)
16:26:54 <flo> and I think I mostly agree
16:27:28 <clokep_work> Yeah, probably true. :)
16:27:37 <flo> that UI wouldn't be really good for Twitter; IRC is more or less only for developers, and wouldn't really fit in such a small UI either
16:27:54 <flo> and other protocols are getting more and more obsolete
16:28:01 <flo> especially if we get MSN over XMPP soon
16:28:49 <clokep_work> Yeah, I meant AIM/MSN/ICQ/QQ/Gadu-Gadu type stuff.
16:28:51 <clokep_work> Not IRC.
16:29:02 <clokep_work> As much as I'd lvoe my code to be in Firefox. :p
16:30:11 <flo> jsProtoHelper contains a lot of your code, doesn't it?
16:30:39 <clokep_work> Ah, yeah. I guess.
16:31:10 <clokep_work> flo: We could ask the l10n people to sign up for m.d.a.instantbird and use that instead of the l10n list?
16:31:30 <clokep_work> We should also announce major features and ask for testing and stuff like that on one.
16:32:01 <clokep_work> I think it's worth having. :)
16:32:02 <flo> clokep_work: "We should also announce major features and ask for testing and stuff like that on one." yes.
16:32:10 <flo> "We could ask the l10n people to sign up for m.d.a.instantbird and use that instead of the l10n list?" no.
16:32:19 <flo> the l10n list is designed to be high signal to noise ratio
16:32:26 <clokep_work> OK.
16:38:01 * clokep_work hopes we'll one day need to split out into a #chatdev room as well as #instantbird. :)
16:38:53 <flo> clokep_work: you think #instantbird will become the "stupid end user idiot channel"? ;)
16:38:59 <flo> like #firefox and #pidgin are...
16:40:03 * clokep_work wouldn't say "stupid" ;)
16:40:13 <clokep_work> I thought that was implied by "end user" :P
16:42:00 <clokep_work> Thoughts for mozilla.dev.apps.instantbird? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/46120
16:42:48 <flo> Instantbird is no longer based on libpurple!
16:42:57 <flo> it uses libpurple
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16:43:11 <flo> but the chat core is libpurple free ;)
16:43:25 <clokep_work> True!
16:43:45 <flo> also, mention the support news groups for user questions
16:44:47 <flo> "For technical questions and discussions related to the Instantbird Mozilla-based instant messaging client."
16:45:21 <clokep_work> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/46123
16:45:39 <flo> pastebin and etherpad should be the same website
16:45:48 <flo> and should open in an instantbird tab ;)
16:45:53 <flo> it's a MUC!
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16:47:33 <flo> should we also say that it's for planning/roadmap discussions too?
16:47:42 <flo> I'm not sure if those topics are obviously technical are not
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16:48:11 <clokep_work> "Discussion of technical topics and planning related to Instantbird." sound better?
16:48:14 <clokep_work> (As the first sentence.)
16:48:29 <flo> It doesn't *sound* better, but may be more accurate
16:48:45 <flo> what's the description of similar Firefox and Tb groups?
16:49:07 <clokep_work> Maybe "For planning and discussion of technical topics related to Instantbird."?
16:49:10 <clokep_work> They don't seem to have any. :(
16:49:29 <clokep_work> https://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/#dev-apps-firefox if you click "Mailling list" on the right it would show the long description at the top of the page
16:50:06 <flo> For discussions related to the development of the Instantbird Mozilla-based instant messaging client: technical questions, release management, planning, ...
16:50:57 <flo> oh, we can copy their phrasing :-D
16:51:12 <flo> "For development of Instantbird, an instant messaging client built on the Mozilla platform. "
16:52:21 <clokep_work> Should it include something about extension questions?
16:52:27 <clokep_work> wnayes: Good morning. :)
16:52:33 <clokep_work> How goes your progress?
16:52:43 <flo> do we have a way to migrate the existing subscribers of our google group?
16:52:50 <flo> or should we just subscribe the group? :)
16:53:56 <clokep_work> Let's see how the admin page looks after it gets approved? :P
16:54:28 <clokep_work> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/46124 is what I currently have. I think it's pretty good.
16:55:04 <flo> does "Code for some protocols is from libpurple (Pidgin)." matter?
16:55:13 <clokep_work> Probably not.
16:55:32 <flo> "for discussions relating" -> related?
16:55:35 <clokep_work> OK, that sentence is gone
16:55:39 <flo> *related to
16:55:57 <flo> or is "discussions relating the chat module" correct English grammar?
16:56:01 * flo isn't a native speaker ;)
16:56:07 <clokep_work> It should be "relating to"
16:56:14 <clokep_work> But the first paragraph is past tense, so they should be the same?
16:56:45 <clokep_work> They probably both should be relating actually (present tense, as they're still related to that...)
16:57:08 <flo> yeah, they are still related to that; until someone posts a lolcat picture
16:57:31 <flo> "Developers are available" -> "also available"?
16:57:56 <flo> (the current phrasing seem to imply that developers aren't in that mailing list; although that seem unlikely :))
16:58:07 <clokep_work> Yes. ;) You're righ.t
17:03:04 <clokep_work> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=765804 for those interested
17:03:22 * clokep_work is disappointed that he hasn't heard about being listed on PMO at all. :(
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17:07:02 <wnayes> clokep_work: Good morning, I'm almost done with some tests for the importers I've written so far.
17:07:45 <wnayes> They're not the easiest things to debug though :(
17:08:50 <clokep_work> Debugging them is pretty awful I've found. :( I usually use dump statements.
17:09:11 <clokep_work> I know tests aren't fun, but they're important! (I can attest to that in "real life" situations. :))
17:11:34 <wnayes> I'll definitely need to write them alongside anything I write in the future, rather than leave them for one big task like now :)
17:11:34 <Mook_as> flo: I don't suppose you remember what https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/annotate/6a56836b8d98/chat/modules/imXPCOMUtils.jsm#l93 is about?
17:12:30 <flo> I don't think I've ever fully understood it
17:12:45 <flo> but the brokeness was obvious
17:12:55 <flo> so if you revert the patch and twitter still work, it's fine :)
17:13:17 <Mook_as> my question is mostly because that means I can't ever use it in a non-global way :(
17:13:26 <Mook_as> in my case, for the xbl binding...
17:13:39 <flo> Mook_as: this didn't have a correct value at https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/6a56836b8d98#l2.41
17:14:06 <flo> possibly because of restrictions for cross-compartments wrappers
17:14:19 <Mook_as> right; I just thought it would make more sense for the caller to pass in the global, instead
17:14:36 <flo> which caller?
17:14:45 <Mook_as> (i.e. "the thing to attach the logging functions to")
17:15:24 <Mook_as> whoever calls initLogModule()?
17:15:25 <flo> Mook_as: I think "aThis = Components.utils.getGlobalForObject(aThis);" is just removing a wrapper that was making things fail
17:15:39 <flo> Mook_as: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/search?string=initLogModule
17:15:39 <Mook_as> ah! huh
17:16:11 <Mook_as> right, everybody is currently using it for the global (and all callers are, in fact, jsms)
17:16:24 <flo> jsms or xpcom components
17:16:25 <Mook_as> except twitter, which isn't a jsm, but anyway
17:16:48 <Mook_as> they're all things which expect nobody else to mess with their globals :)
17:29:03 <clokep_work> flo: Is that work for the "Presence" stuff followable anywhere? (Bug, repo, RSS, Atom, blah blah?)
17:29:32 <flo> clokep_work: I think it would be if there was actually some work going on
17:29:42 <flo> I haven't touched it during the last 3 weeks
17:29:52 <clokep_work> Alright. :)
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17:30:03 <flo> the prototype is a try-server build
17:30:09 <clokep_work> If something ends up getting filed or whatever, CC me on it. ;)
17:30:12 <flo> I can show you the patch if you are interested in playing with it
17:30:16 <flo> sure :)
17:31:39 <clokep_work> Thanks. :)
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18:08:28 <myk> erm, i can't set my status to available anymore...
18:08:38 <clokep_work> myk: Are you stuck on idle?
18:08:54 <myk> clokep_work: i'm stuck on "Unavailable"
18:09:13 <Mook_as> what account types are you connected to?
18:09:24 <clokep_work> Right, because you can't choose idle...bah I guess there's no easy way to tell if you're idle unless you have yourself on your own buddy list.
18:09:28 * clokep_work does...
18:09:48 <Mook_as> also, did you recently (since the last time you were available) lose your connection / sleep / hibernate?
18:09:51 <myk> when i try to set myself as "Available", the status message box in the Contacts window gets focused, but no matter what i do next (defocus it, change the message, delete the message), my status changes back to Unavailable
18:10:20 <myk> i'm connected to one each of IRC, Gtalk, and AIM
18:10:20 <Mook_as> (fwiw, I ask because I've seen that, but I can never figure out the right triggers for it to happen)
18:10:54 <myk> Mook_as: i'm not sure when it happened; i just noticed it now when a contact told me she was being bombarded by my away messages
18:11:25 <Mic> I think I also saw it after standby. Until now I have blamed "Session Restore" and was too lazy to debug it, good to know that we can just file a bug then ;)
18:11:41 <Mook_as> oh, I think there's already a bug, it's just not actionable :p
18:12:34 <myk> anything i can do to become available again? restart?
18:13:07 <Mook_as> yeah, restart usually works for me
18:13:31 <Mook_as> (... and I usually do it by trying to apply an update, since it's a nightly :p )
18:15:52 <myk> hmm, i already applied a nightly this morning
18:16:07 <myk> so i'll just restart
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18:17:15 * jwir3 is now known as jwir3|lunch
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18:18:06 <clokep_work> myk: Mook_as bug 1210
18:18:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1210 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Status stuck on away/unavailable
18:18:38 <myk> restarting did the trick (perhaps temporarily)
18:18:42 <clokep_work> I've had this issue before (seemingly more often the past few days), but I haven't had a chance to look into it at all.
18:18:49 <clokep_work> It happens when I go idle.
18:19:38 <myk> clokep_work: thanks, cc:ed!
18:19:43 <-- Optimizer has quit (Ping timeout)
18:20:27 <Mook_as> thanks, clokepbot :)
18:21:41 <clokep_work> :P
18:22:06 * clokep_work should experiment with an idle timeout of 1 second and see if he can reproduce...
18:22:09 * Mook_as <-- lazybutt
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18:53:09 <aleth> Should the support group description contain a link to the FAQ?
18:53:41 <aleth> flo: The Presence demo looks cool :) I'm actually amazed they are considering that for inclusion into the browser, rather than as an add-on
18:55:55 <aleth> It would be nice if in the long run (if that Presence thing were to happen) one could help along an alternative to gtalk/fb by making it easy to switch running chats across to another network (we already have the target selector...) 
18:57:08 <clokep_work> aleth: I thought of that.
18:57:18 <clokep_work> (The FAQ), but thought it might be overkill.
18:57:39 <aleth> Probably...
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19:20:40 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1627 on bug 385.
19:20:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
19:22:47 <aleth> :(
19:22:52 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1627 on bug 385.
19:22:54 <aleth> clicked by accident
19:22:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
19:27:11 <clokep_work> aleth: I don't know if that patch works as you expect for autojoin...it's of the same form as the /join command, you should be able to put them through the same code path.
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19:29:16 <clokep_work> Bah I guess it does do the same thing pretty much? http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imAccounts.js#225
19:29:39 * clokep_work doesn't understand how that works w/ passwords at all...
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19:30:10 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1627 on bug 385.
19:30:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
19:30:33 <aleth> clokep_work: It works by accident if you use "channel password,channel password"
19:30:48 <aleth> (By accident because I suspect it wasn't designed that way)
19:31:32 <clokep_work> Right, I thought it was working as <channel>,... <key>... but I guess not
19:31:51 <clokep_work> Not designed that way for the libpurple plugin, I think. Yes.
19:32:05 <clokep_work> For JS-IRC, it's meant to work and is "supported".
19:32:09 <aleth> :)
19:32:31 <myk> happened again; i've restarted and also posted to the bug with the error messages i found in the console
19:33:29 <clokep_work> Thanks myk. :)
19:33:42 <clokep_work> aleth: I think the "best" way to fix that bug is to make the syntax match the auto-join window syntax. :-D
19:33:46 * clokep_work likes code reuse.
19:33:59 <aleth> The syntax of what?
19:34:13 <aleth>  /join?
19:34:17 <clokep_work> Of the /join command.
19:34:24 <clokep_work> It would simplify a lot, right?
19:34:24 <aleth> But the auto-join syntax is awful.
19:34:32 <aleth> It would simplify it, yes
19:34:39 <clokep_work> Is it better than the /join syntax?
19:34:40 <clokep_work> I'd say no.
19:35:12 <aleth> you mean worse ;)
19:36:20 <clokep_work> I'll be very clear: I think the autojoin syntax is better then the /join syntax.
19:36:31 <clokep_work> For the following reason:
19:36:40 <aleth> Keeps channel and password together?
19:36:47 <clokep_work> Ys.
19:36:47 <clokep_work> Yes.
19:36:59 <aleth> OK, I'll change it
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19:37:29 <aleth> I think you inherited the /join syntax from the RFC.
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19:38:59 <clokep_work> I inherited it from libpurple. :-D
19:39:06 <clokep_work> Which I'm quite OK w/ changing.
19:39:11 <clokep_work> Sorry for all the back and forth btw aleth. :)
19:39:22 <clokep_work> Thanks for looking at it and dealing w/ my diva personality. ;)
19:39:54 <clokep_work> (Don't forget the change in irc.properties too! I always forget to change the help text for commands...)
19:42:51 <aleth> Oh yeah, the help text...
19:43:06 <aleth> I think I can fix my gripes with the autojoin syntax by making it more whitespace tolerant
19:43:24 <instant-buildbot> build #626 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed shell_3]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/626
19:43:26 <aleth> But really ditching autojoins is the way to go...
19:44:51 <clokep_work> I agree. :)
19:45:13 <clokep_work> You mean replacing the " " with a \s? That would be a fine change, but I think I'd like it in a separate bug.
19:49:14 <clokep_work> (And I'd really like it if we did have session restore. :-D)
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20:16:32 <wnayes> flo: I was wondering what you think should come next for the import wizard, now that I've finished the Pidgin, mIRC, and XChat importers. Should I continue with the others, or start with some log importing on those?
20:18:44 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1627 on bug 385.
20:18:45 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1628 on bug 385.
20:18:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=385 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Rejoin IRC channels after reconnect
20:20:15 <instantbot> New Core - General bug 1520 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
20:20:16 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1629 on bug 1520.
20:20:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1520 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Tolerate whitespace after commas in the autojoin parameter
20:20:42 <wnayes> Maybe it would be a good time for another code review as well?
20:21:52 <aleth> Wow, mIRC and Pidgin, those are two important ones... :)
20:22:04 <flo> So I think that before switching to importing logs, you would at least handle one client that's a bit more difficult (ie the information isn't stored in plain text in a file), for example WLM.
20:22:17 <flo> I agree that another code review could be a good idea
20:22:47 <aleth> wnayes: Did you catch the wish to be able to import from IB and TB profiles too, a few days ago in the IRC logs?
20:23:42 <flo> wnayes: I also wanted to give you an advance warning that I'll be offline (well, I'll most likely check my emails, but not spend time online with the laptop) during the first week of July and probably 2-3 days before and after. So try to avoid depending on me during that period, and ensure you have asked me to review your code before :)
20:24:41 <clokep_work> wnayes: I'll also be offline (mostly) during the first week of July (1st to like the 8th, whatever Sunday to Sunday is).
20:25:22 <wnayes> aleth: I had read that, I was thinking about how the importers would need to know which client to import for (ex: IB would not want to import it's own accounts, or even other profiles?)
20:25:39 <clokep_work> wnayes: It could potentially.
20:25:44 <wnayes> flo, clokep_work: Thanks for the heads up, I should be able to plan around that.
20:25:58 <clokep_work> (Or even so, you just show the accounts and let the user untick the ones found. ;))
20:26:23 <aleth> Just avoid the profile you are importing into?
20:27:34 <clokep_work> aleth: Ah-ha, I thought you meant the auto-join syntax between a channel and it's key!
20:27:48 <aleth> No, I think that's best left as is...
20:27:55 <wnayes> I might need to spend some time making a basic Windows Credential Store module to handle WLM, AIM, etc. then :)
20:28:16 <clokep_work> AIM uses that too? Interesting.
20:28:44 <wnayes> clokep_work: I thought I read that the latest ones did, I could be wrong though
20:29:39 <wnayes> GTalk does as well for passwords, although they use some protection that is not documented anywhere as far as I could find.
20:29:55 <clokep_work> Sounds like fun. :)
20:31:41 <wnayes> Too bad I haven't had my machine architecture class yet (next semester) :)
20:32:04 <clokep_work> If you really can't figure it out...I know some security people I might be able to toss it toward.
20:33:36 <clokep_work> wnayes: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Account_Import_Wizard#Google__talk ?
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20:34:11 <flo> wnayes: working on a Windows Credential Store module sounds like a good time investment, yes :).
20:34:21 <flo> wnayes: probably an opportunity to play with jsctypes
20:34:29 <flo> (and Mook_as will say that I hate you for saying that ;))
20:34:51 <Mook_as> mostly because the js-ctypes API is horrible :p
20:34:55 * clokep_work types /mode -v Mook_as
20:35:30 <Mook_as> (watching the UI thing from last week on air.m.o: yeah... that bit about JS IM backends is... not quite correct)
20:35:39 <wnayes> I looked around quite a bit the other day for the GTalk password algorithm, the "steps" available are not enough to produce anything that works (the hashing method, magic numbers used, etc., are not given).
20:35:57 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Which part? How he says florian is translating libpurple to JS?
20:36:07 <clokep_work> wnayes: Ah, I see.
20:36:20 <clokep_work> wnayes: You time is better spent on ones with an API then.
20:36:42 <clokep_work> (Also the fun way around that is to use the dll from GTalk, i.e. use their own hashing function...)
20:38:22 <wnayes> flo: I'll start on a module for that then. I'll clean up some things here and get a patch up soon too. :)
20:41:45 <flo> clokep_work: apparently make xpcshell-tests fails on the Windows buildbot builder
20:42:06 <clokep_work> flo: Since the Moz 13 update?
20:42:11 <flo> wnayes: I'm quite busy this evening, so I'm unlikely to have time to review any code
20:42:23 <flo> clokep_work: yes, I suspect we need a patch somewhere to fix a path, or something like that
20:42:41 <flo> clokep_work: I didn't test it on mac because tests are disabled on mac because they didn't want to pass on universal builds :-(
20:42:49 <flo> I don't remember if I tested on linux yesterday
20:43:20 <clokep_work> flo: :( That's upsetting. Should we disable to get a nightly?
20:43:34 * clokep_work should actually review wnayes' code instead of just vaguely reading it.
20:44:36 <Mook_as> clokep_work: yeah, that part. (that sounds suspiciously like derived work, too, which mean GPL :p )
20:45:05 <flo> wnayes: don't hesitate to ping me again everyday until I've actually reviewed it though :)
20:45:49 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Linking to another dll? Is that an issue with MPL?
20:45:52 <flo> wnayes: I would like to at least check the changes you made to the APIs after my latest review of them. I think what has to be asynchronous (and consequently needs executeSoon calls) and what can return synchronously wasn't completely clear
20:46:39 <Mook_as> clokep_work: no, it's just that a translation (in this case, C -> JS) sounds like you'd need to obey the original's license. whereas we actually have a rewrite with completely different internals so we should be fine.
20:46:47 <wnayes> flo: Sounds good, I'll be working on that module for awhile, so the importer code review shouldn't block me.
20:47:02 <Mook_as> (GPL isn't happy being in a product like that, that's why LGPL exists)
20:47:29 * Optimizer1 is now known as Optimizer
20:47:40 <flo> Mook_as: yeah, I'll tell limi that he shouldn't even mention libpurple again :)
20:47:45 <flo> *ever
20:48:35 <Mook_as> I imagine he's already got enough pokes from it :p
20:50:03 <flo> clokep_work: make -C objdir xpcshell-tests passes on my mac debug build :-S
20:50:17 <flo> from what?
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20:50:43 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Yes, that wouldn't be cool w/ the GPL. But we stay clear of doing that. :)
20:50:51 <clokep_work> flo: Yay?! :)
20:50:52 <flo> Mook_as: I think the presentation of the iPad browser that everybody seems excited about has completely eclipsed the presence demo ;)
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20:51:45 <flo> clokep_work: I wonder if someone wanting to annoy us could say that some of the constants in our prplIAccount and prplIProtocol interfaces are GPL because they include comments about simpilar constants that come from libpurple
20:53:04 <clokep_work> flo: I'd call shenanigans on that.
20:53:56 <flo> clokep_work: I would argue it's fair use; which is part of copyright laws and independent of the license used ;)
20:55:34 <flo> hmm, the linux build that does run the unit tests passed last night
20:55:44 <flo> so the test harness can't be completely broken
20:55:49 <flo> I wonder what's up with Windows then :-S
20:57:34 <clokep_work> Hmm...probably just being Windows.
21:02:49 <flo> This comment in bug 1210 makes me wonder if the problem couldn't be when the status switches to offline (because necko is offline) while we are away/idle:
21:02:49 <flo> "The only recent errors in the error console are the following three that appeared about the time I lost my network connection for a moment"
21:02:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1210 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Status stuck on away/unavailable
21:03:01 <flo> Even complained several times about that bug recently too
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21:03:09 <flo> so for some reason it's become frequent
21:03:31 <flo> could it be after the moz12 update? Maybe necko becoming offline more aggressively?
21:06:14 <clokep_work> That's my guess (since the moz12 update).
21:06:26 * clokep_work needs to go.
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21:09:47 <myk> closing an irc channel tab "puts the conversation on hold" instead of leaving the channel, as i would expect; intentional?
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21:11:53 <flo> myk: yes
21:12:23 <flo> myk: leaving the channel isn't a very useful action, but getting it out of the way is ;).
21:14:52 <flo> ah, I suspect it's something messed up between / and \ in windows paths :(
21:14:54 <myk> flo: hmm, interesting; i never want to get a channel out of the way; my mental model is really simple: if it's open, there's a tab for it (which i may or may not look at); if it's closed, there isn't
21:15:27 <flo> myk: my model is "if I interact with it, I need a tab for it, otherwise a tab is in my way"
21:15:54 <flo> out of curiosity, how many tabs/channels do you have on average?
21:16:17 <flo> I find it difficult to use more than 6 tabs at once, so I tend to close/put on hold anything that's above the 6th tab
21:16:18 <myk> flo: that also makes those tabs behave differently from others; if i close an IM tab, and that person messages me again, the tab reappears; but if i close an IRC tab, and messages show up in the channel, then a notice appears in the contacts window, which i rarely look at
21:16:42 <flo> myk: if someone pings you the tab reopens itself
21:16:51 <myk> flo: a have a dozen or so tabs open, only a few of which i actively access
21:16:54 <flo> IMs are messages directed to you
21:17:20 <flo> it's possible you have a larger monitor than I do :)
21:20:19 <flo> myk: and I rarely look at the contacts window. But the conversations I put on hold are conversations where I don't mind if messages wait for 10 hours before I read them, or even never read them at all.
21:20:38 <myk> my mac monitor's resolution is either 1920x1200 or 1680x1050, depending on whether or not it's plugged into its external monitor
21:21:25 <myk> my windows laptop's monitor's resolution is smaller, though; don't remember what it is now, perhaps 1400x1050
21:21:56 <myk> i suppose i don't know what it means to put a conversation on hold
21:22:08 <myk> that's a layer of complexity that is currently beyond me
21:22:18 <myk> for me a conversation is either open or closed
21:23:16 <myk> when i notice the contacts window notifying me about messages in a tab i thought i'd closed long ago, i am genuinely surprised
21:23:38 <myk> of course i can learn what it means to put a conversation on hold
21:24:15 <myk> i'm just noting how the machine model differs from my current mental model
21:24:39 <myk> or perhaps i should say the application's conceptual model differs from my current mental model
21:25:04 <flo> I understand your point
21:25:17 <flo> and yes, the conversation on hold feature can be surprising
21:25:40 <myk> i suppose i too would have trouble monitoring more than six tabs; however, i don't actually monitor most of my tabs; i just leave them open in case someone messages me in them
21:25:52 <myk> i only monitor a handful
21:26:41 <flo> how do you deal with the mental burden of remembering which tabs you actually want to monitor?
21:26:41 <myk> (or, as is often the case, none; since i'm usually doing something other than reading conversations; mostly i just wait for people to contact me, or i go to a specific tab to contact someone)
21:26:54 <flo> do you have to read the tab titles each time you look at the window?
21:27:23 <flo> myk: another way to describe the conversation on hold feature is: closing the conversation window should never cause you to miss messages
21:27:38 <flo> leaving chat rooms is a destructive action as you won't receive messages any more after doing that
21:28:02 <flo> private IM tabs also go on hold if they contained unread messages at the time you closed the window
21:28:19 <myk> hmm, i'm not sure how to answer the question about whether i have to read the tab titles each time i look at the window
21:28:40 <flo> if everything was read, their conversation is closed; as there's no dataloss in that (the conversation will reopen itself if an additional message arrives)
21:28:49 <myk> the simple answer is no, but it feels like a useful answer will depend on context
21:29:42 <myk> hmm, i only ever close an irc channel tab when i want to miss messages
21:29:54 <flo> so on mac it's possible to close all instantbird windows without having to care about it
21:29:55 <myk> in fact, i close it *in order* to miss messages
21:30:10 <myk> i.e. my goal is to stop being notified about messages in that channel
21:30:29 <flo> is this "stop being pinged by trolls"?
21:30:37 <myk> for me all conversations in inactive tabs are "on hold" waiting for me to return to that tab
21:30:58 <myk> and the notification that a conversation on hold has new messages is the color of the tab title
21:32:21 <myk> flo: no, it's not about trolls, there are relatively few of those on mozilla's irc network
21:32:42 <myk> flo: it's that i'm no longer interested in conversations in that channel
21:33:06 <myk> flo: f.e. today i joined #bmo because i noticed bmo was having trouble and wanted to find out why
21:33:30 <myk> flo: #bmo's topic told me to join #it for that information, so i did so
21:33:48 <myk> flo: a while later i closed the #bmo tab since it was no longer useful for me
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21:34:11 <myk> flo: a while after that i happened to see the contacts window, and it was nagging me about unread messages in #bmo
21:34:39 <flo> yeah, like I joined #build a few days ago to understand why my builds were red for no apparent reason, and then was no longer interested
21:35:00 <flo> 'nagging' seems a bit strong ;)
21:35:00 <myk> flo: "nagging" is obviously an opinionated way of putting it; i'm using that evocative term to help describe the feeling of seeing that message
21:35:42 <flo> seeing that I have 1000+ unread messages in #developers doesn't annoy me at all :)
21:35:54 <myk> flo: in a little while, bmo will be back, and i'll lose interest in the #it channel; i now know that i need to context-click on its tab and select Close Conversation
21:36:10 <flo> it just shows me that I've saved a lot of time by not following there, and a significant amount of memory by not displaying these messages
21:36:42 <myk> flo: but i bet i'll have forgotten that by the next time i go to close a conversation; i'm so used to closing tabs to get rid of conversations (since i mostly do it to private IM tabs)
21:36:44 <flo> myk: if you like using the keyboard, you can also type /part
21:36:51 <flo> or just /pa<tab>
21:37:01 <myk> flo: indeed; and i do like using the keyboard; and i'll try to remember that!
21:37:36 <myk> flo: ah, see, i dislike being told how many unread messages i have so much that i frequently quit thunderbird to get it to stop badging its dock icon with that information
21:37:39 <flo> hmm, /part may keep the tab open after leaving the conversation though
21:37:47 <flo> but I guess you can Ctrl+w then :)
21:37:59 <myk> heh
21:38:00 <myk> ok
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21:59:38 <instantbot> wnayes@gmail.com requested feedback from florian@instantbi rd.org for attachment 1630 on bug 1495.
21:59:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1495 enh, --, ---, wnayes, ASSI, Create an account import wizard - GSoC 2012
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22:04:02 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/484417069bea - Florian Quèze - Attempt to fix xpcshell-tests bustage from bug 729098 on Windows.
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23:13:54 <instant-buildbot> build #267 of win32-onCommit is complete: Failure [failed shell_1]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/267  blamelist: Florian Qu?ze <florian@instantbird.org>
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23:41:08 <flo> If anybody has any idea to fix that test failure, feel free to look ;)
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23:47:59 <Mook_as> flo: I think it wants --tests-root-dir to be a DOS path there, instead of a msys one... not sure what you can do, since $(call normalizepath) will still give forward slashes, I think
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23:59:31 <instant-buildbot> build #278 of linux-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-onCommit/builds/278