#instantbird log on 05 07 2012

All times are UTC.

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03:00:47 <instant-buildbot> build #488 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/488
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05:08:04 <instant-buildbot> build #582 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/582
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06:03:06 <instant-buildbot> build #475 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/475
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07:03:55 <Mic> Hello.
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08:46:10 <Mic> I think I got the log-messages loading right this time :)
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10:20:18 <flo> The Thunderbird trees seem quite busted so I guess I won't be able to push https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=743235 today :-S
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10:23:01 <clokep> libpurple 2.10.4 was released, nothing exciting though.
10:23:30 <EionRobb> they got rid of periodic /who on irc
10:23:34 <EionRobb> that's pretty exciting
10:23:49 <flo> EionRobb: but we had already ifdef'd that out
10:23:58 <EionRobb> that's almost as exciting
10:24:17 <flo> + we are no longer using libpurple's IRC plugin
10:24:23 <EionRobb> :)
10:24:41 <EionRobb> and you haven't got filetransfers yet, right?
10:24:49 <EionRobb> so the xmpp transfer crash fix won't affect you either?
10:24:59 <flo> yeah
10:25:11 <flo> the MSN fix may affect us
10:25:24 <EionRobb> so.... any plans to add file transfers? :)
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10:27:53 <clokep> flo: Have we even been updating MSN? I thought it was causing crashes on Mac.
10:28:04 <flo> ah, yes :-D
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10:29:05 <flo> well, I guess I meant "no, we haven't been updating it" rather than "yes", actually :-)
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10:35:25 <clokep> Although I guess if farstream is better than farsight2 in some way (maybe it supports Windows better and people will add vv support for it?) it could be exciting. :P But not really for us currently.
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11:32:06 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested feedback from the wind for attachment 1452 on bug 958.
11:32:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows
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12:26:29 <clokep_work> Mic: I looked over that patch and it seems mostly OK, I'm not sure about the sizeof part of the IDL though.
12:32:19 <Mic> clokep_work: thanks, I think there should be 'actualMessagCount' in there.
12:32:35 <clokep_work> Yes, I think so. :)
12:32:46 <Mic> The previous WIP had it right already :(
12:39:08 <flo> what happens if the timestamps aren't consecutive in the log?
12:43:12 <flo> Mic: if the battery on my computer's mother board is out of order and after a reboot the computer's clock is set several years in the past. Will a getLastMessagesBefore call block the UI thread with synchronous disk I/O until it has opened and parsed all the log files without successfully finding any message older than the timestamp of opening the current conversation?
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12:55:10 <Mic> flo: no.
12:55:30 <flo> how is that handled?
12:55:39 <Mic> Have you read the patch?
12:55:59 <flo> ah, because it checks the times of the files before parsing them
12:57:26 <aleth> Patch looks nice :) (don't know about the IDL details though)
12:58:12 <flo> I don't like the approach of comparing timestamps (as I assume them to be generally unreliable), but that may still be OK in this case
12:58:41 <flo> and it may avoid displaying twice the context message for XMPP MUCs :)
13:00:38 <flo> *messages
13:00:42 <aleth> Mic: What I didn't understand, why |if (!logConv) break;| rather than |if (!logConv) continue;|?
13:00:44 <clokep_work> I don't really like using timestamps either. :(
13:00:49 <Mic> Sorry, I didn't mean to sound impolite. I was confused why you asked, the whole binary search thing is only there to be able to skip forward to the first possibly useful log entry 
13:02:01 <flo> Mic: so is that binary search useful only when the clock is messed up?
13:07:00 <Mic> No, it's part of getting messages before the given time. If you call that with the time of "Feb, 3rd 8AM", it will get you the N most recent messages before "Feb, 3rd  8AM" for example.
13:07:14 <flo> ah, ok
13:07:21 <flo> do you have a use case in mind for that?
13:07:34 <Mic> Or if you like to do some scrollback stuff, call it with the earliest message time and a count and it will get ou the messages.
13:08:10 <Mic> And do that again if you need more (with a new earliest time ofcourse)
13:08:53 <Mic> With "earliest" I meant the time of the first message that you're using/showing/... so far.
13:09:30 <flo> wouldn't we need to do it both ways if we want to show context for a search result?
13:09:55 <Mic> What do you mean with "both ways"?
13:10:06 <flo> finding messages before, but also after the given time
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13:17:16 <Mic> At first I wanted to get messages by giving a period of time and a limit for the number (with something like Array.slice does with positive/negative numbers to tell if it should count from the beginning or end). It seemed unnecessary for the bug, though.
13:17:49 <Mic> Would still have needed two calls for the context around a given time, though.
13:18:20 <flo> I was just wondering if you were feeling like preparing the work for infinite scrollback ;)
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13:18:40 <Mic> Yes, partially ;)
13:19:05 <aleth> Yes, it looks like a large part of what would be needed :)
13:19:49 <flo> some hacking related to inserting messages at the beginning or in the middle of a conversation rather than at the end will also be needed.
13:20:04 <flo> and removing messages
13:20:26 <Mic> I was also thinking that this would allow to put custom times into the log viewer (e.g. an item per day for older logs, instead of a log of small entries and no matter how many sessions there were at this day).
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13:23:23 <aleth> flo: Why in the middle?
13:23:37 <flo> aleth: when jumping between search results
13:24:07 <flo> except if you want to remove the DOM nodes for the previously displayed result immediately
13:25:20 <aleth> Good search is hard :-/
13:25:28 <flo> heh, someone having fun with a broken IRC client in #maildev ;)
13:26:33 <flo> aleth: a client that has a "/back" command to return from away, but sends "back" in all channels if you were not away when you typed /back :-D
13:26:49 <aleth> ouch :D
13:29:16 * clokep_work debates hinting he should use a different IRC client. ;)
13:30:00 <flo> clokep_work: or we could just collect the names of sucky popular IRC clients with proofs of how they suck for future use ;) 
13:30:37 <flo> clokep_work: what's the way to know which client someone is using? I always forget :-/
13:30:58 <aleth> What was the client in this case?
13:31:11 <flo> aleth: no idea
13:32:10 <clokep_work> flo: We might have a version command, I forget.
13:32:20 <clokep_work> He's using glob|away	VERSION Linkinus (Agent build 24491)
13:32:37 <clokep_work> I think /ctcp <nick> VERSION does it in Instantbird though.
13:32:56 <flo> clokep_work: we have a version command, but its output seems directed to /dev/null (or the server tab, which is the same in my case)
13:33:29 <clokep_work> Hmmm...it should probably pop up as a reply from that user most likely.
13:33:30 <aleth> flo: it should open a tab with the response, actually
13:33:49 <clokep_work> Or add an observer to the conversation like we do for whois.
13:34:01 <flo> isn't it very similar to /whois? (shouldn't it print the reply in a system message?)
13:34:03 <aleth> Yes, it opens a DM-like tab atm.
13:34:24 <flo> ah, right, a DM tab without unread message, because it's a ssytem message
13:34:29 <flo> so I hadn't noticed it
13:34:41 <aleth> It would be better handled like whois.
13:34:57 <clokep_work> aleth: I disagree.
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13:35:14 <clokep_work> I'd actually rather whois was handled like that too I think. ;)
13:35:51 <flo> clokep_work: I completely missed that tab though :-S.
13:36:04 <aleth> It's not what you expect, a response as  DM
13:36:06 <clokep_work> flo: Where did it end up?
13:36:09 <flo> but it's possible I'm just not experienced enough with using IRC or Instantbird ;)
13:36:36 <flo> clokep_work: at the end of the tab bar, it was visible. But didn't attract my attention, because I never look at tabs that aren't red.
13:36:39 <aleth> flo: I missed it the first time I tried it too ;)
13:37:03 <clokep_work> aleth: I disagree, it is what I expect. I'm requesting information from a particular person I expect the response from them, not in some random channel that I'm in. It puts information that is totally out of context for a channel into the message display.
13:37:23 <clokep_work> flo: Ah, fair enough. Maybe that's a bug in the way we display messages then and not in IRC? ;)
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13:37:47 <aleth> I prefer that to having to switch to a new tab, read it, and then close it. Plus there will be a context in which I wanted the info, and that context is the open channel ;)
13:37:49 <flo> clokep_work: I don't think a conversation tab should even open if there's only a system message in the conversation
13:38:18 <flo> clokep_work: I think it makes sense (from a user point of view) to see the answer where the request was expressed
13:38:48 <flo> if I send the /whois command in a tab, seeing the reply in that tab is what I expect, even though technically it's not really "clean"
13:38:53 <clokep_work> I know I'm not going to win this argument, so just file a bug and we can change it.
13:39:02 <aleth> A separate tab with a system message is like a non-modal dialog box ;)
13:39:44 <flo> clokep_work: I don't know what your point is, so I don't know if you can win or not. My point is "the current behavior sucks because both aleth and me missed the tab that opened the first time we used that command". I don't have a real opinion yet on what should be done.
13:40:36 <aleth> Yes, there might be an even better solution than printing it to the current channel...
13:40:43 <clokep_work> flo: My point is that I don't like using arbitrary channel output streams for random commands.
13:41:06 <clokep_work> I think it is sometimes in context as aleth said, but not always.
13:41:14 <flo> clokep_work: I don't like it either. Just, as a user, it's were my eyes were looking for a feedback
13:41:27 <clokep_work> (Also, does anyone know if the version is added to the whois info object? It should be. :))
13:41:38 <flo> clokep_work: if my command had failed because I typoed in it, the feedback would definitely have been in the channel
13:41:49 <clokep_work> Yes, it would have been...
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13:42:12 <clokep_work> File a bug? ;)
13:42:57 <aleth> It's a good sign that now new IRC bugs are enhancement requests rather than regressions :)
13:43:24 <clokep_work> This could probably be viewed as a "regression". :P
13:44:38 <instantbot> New Core - IRC bug 1428 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
13:44:40 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1428 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Having the result of the /version command in a new private conversation tab is surprising/not discov
13:45:02 <flo> clokep_work: by the way, a possible solution could be to make new tabs more discoverable
13:45:10 <flo> if opening a tab was animated, it would be way harder to miss it
13:45:23 <aleth> flo: There is also another bug that new tabs opened by commands should get focused
13:45:27 <clokep_work> flo: I suggested that earlier. :) clokep_work	flo: Ah, fair enough. Maybe that's a bug in the way we display messages then and not in IRC? 
13:45:58 <flo> clokep_work: I understood "the way we display messages" as being about the message themes, not the tabs, sorry
13:46:28 <clokep_work> I mean if printing it where the command was typed is the best thing, OK. I just want to make sure it's what the user actually wants and is not being a sheep and doing it because that's what every client does. :)
13:46:35 <clokep_work> Ah, yeah. Poorly worded on my part. Sorry. :)
13:47:14 <flo> uh, that client (linkinus) doesn't even seem to be free
13:51:13 <clokep_work> Interesting. Not sure I had ever seen that one before.
13:52:21 <flo> (that discussion started about making fun of a sucky IRC client, and we ended up arguing about our own client's behavior... that may be more productive though ;))
13:56:51 <clokep_work> Haha, yes. :) Well at least /back works properly AFAIK. :)
13:57:06 <flo> :)
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15:37:52 <clokep_work> Hmm...we're updating to Microsoft Lync (replaces Microsoft Office Communicator and Live Meeting) tomorrow, should be interesting. ;)
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16:01:50 <clokep_work> So apparently SIPE doesn't really work with Adium anymore and no one is compiling the Windows one anymore, so it could be a good win for us if we integrate that code. :)
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16:04:51 <IRCMonkey15796> I'v
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20:59:28 <flo> clokep: integrating the SIPE code could be a good win for us only if it actually works without causing lots of issues ;). If it's to end up with something like the current situation of QQ... it's less interesting ;)
21:00:43 <EionRobb> what's the current situation of qq?
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21:21:17 <aleth> EionRobb: https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1021 but afaik it turns out it isn't clear whether upstream is still alive
21:21:22 <instantbot> Bug 1021 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Replace unsupported libpurple QQ with libqq-pidgin
21:22:29 <EionRobb> oh yeah, definitely use the plugin
21:22:48 <EionRobb> wait, which "upstream" are you talking about?
21:23:26 <aleth> libqq-pidgin
21:23:50 <aleth> But clokep would be the one to ask how well it works atm
21:24:54 <EionRobb> ah right
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22:31:04 <instantbot> wnayes@gmail.com cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1448 on bug 1391.
22:31:05 <instantbot> wnayes@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1453 on bug 1391.
22:31:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1391 enh, --, ---, wnayes, ASSI, Simplify account creation wizard
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22:47:58 <aleth> "The FBI general counsel’s office has drafted a proposed law that the bureau claims is the best solution: requiring that social-networking Web sites and providers of VoIP, instant messaging, and Web e-mail alter their code to ensure their products are wiretap-friendly." http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-57428067-83/fbi-we-need-wiretap-ready-web-sites-now/
22:54:07 <Kaishi> what in the hell
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23:17:07 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 1453 on bug 1391.
23:17:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1391 enh, --, ---, wnayes, ASSI, Simplify account creation wizard
23:17:58 <flo> I guess others should still feel free to look at it to see if there are other things that I missed that would be nice to improve for the next iteration of the patch.
23:18:05 <flo> all the details I've pointed out this time are really small details
23:36:22 <flo> Good night
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