#instantbird log on 04 27 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:13:58 <aleth> clokep: Did you see this rather dramatic review? https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/255
00:14:08 <aleth> At least I don't get emails for reviews when they are added :-/
00:15:11 <clokep> aleth: No one does...
00:15:21 <clokep> And yes, I did.
00:15:25 <clokep> It's old. I had an email conversation w/ the guy.
00:15:58 <aleth> You might want to reply on the page too or people might not download the add-on ;)
00:17:33 <clokep> aleth: Yes, but it doesn't work right now. ;)
00:18:55 <aleth> oh ok :P
00:20:32 <clokep> Or maybe it does, I forget. :(
00:20:37 <clokep> It certainly doesn't crash the application.
00:22:41 <clokep> I've been wantnign to convert it to JS-XMPP...but the cert is invalid so...
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00:43:31 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1408 on bug 1366.
00:43:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick
00:44:36 <clokep> Bah was hoping to do that before aleth went to bed. :(
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00:55:28 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from the wind for attachment 1409 on bug 1405.
00:55:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1405 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Replace Wiki main page with Developer page
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03:13:14 <instant-buildbot> build #477 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/477
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05:50:48 <instant-buildbot> build #568 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/568
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06:08:14 <instant-buildbot> build #465 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/465
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08:22:54 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm granted review for attachment 1408 on bug 1366.
08:22:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick
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10:13:40 <Mic> Hello
10:13:51 <flo> hi :)
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10:21:10 <clokep> Hello.
10:22:15 <meh> hello
10:25:40 <clokep> flo: So I was thinking about it more (what we should focus on)...and I realize we tend to spend a lot of our time focusing on chatting in MUCs (probably because we all do that a lot here...and it's a more interested/complicated problem).
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10:26:14 <clokep> But there probably is some work to be done in private conversations (I.e. better handling of a merged contact going offline, etc.)
10:26:24 <clokep> s/i.e./e.g./
10:27:23 <flo> do you have personal itches to scratch there?
10:28:02 <clokep> I'm not sure...I'd need to think about if there's things that annoy me while IMing people. :)
10:28:29 <clokep> You know like not being able to see or hear them or send them a file. ;)
10:28:32 * clokep trolls....
10:28:33 <flo> I don't think I IM people much these days
10:28:40 <aleth> I don't know how hard it would be to grab and integrate the FileLink code, but file transfer would make a lot of people happy...
10:29:38 <aleth> flo: Interesting. What do you put it down to?
10:30:00 <clokep> aleth: Well we would need to copy and paste it (== bad) because it's in c-c not m-c.
10:30:02 <flo> "it"?
10:30:45 <flo> clokep: shouldn't ib be in c-c then? :)
10:31:06 <clokep> "it" = the FileLink code.
10:31:12 <clokep> flo: Sounds like a good reason to me. ;)
10:31:25 <flo> clokep: that question was for aleth, sorry
10:31:42 <aleth> flo: "it" - not using IM much anymore
10:32:21 <flo> aleth: My friends aren't online any more during my work day, I'm rarely in front of the computer during the week-end (and I suspect they aren't either)
10:33:32 <clokep> Most of my IMing is done during work hours actually...only crappy gmail and mibbit. :-/
10:33:56 <aleth> My experience is also the gtalk takeover of IM...
10:34:09 <flo> gtalk and facebook
10:35:06 <flo> the only contact I still see online for AIM is myself. For MSN, only people who I haven't talked to during the last 2 or 3 years, or with whom I talk over Gtalk (and the MSN buddies are hidden in contacts anyway)
10:36:09 <flo> -> I wouldn't miss any real contact if we turned off libpurple
10:38:14 <clokep> I talk to most of my friends on AIM cause that's how I roll...but I have GTalk contacts merged in for all of them, so pretty much the same for me.
10:38:15 <aleth> I still have MSN and XMPP contacts. MSN tends to be people who are (roughly speaking) less computer-savvy
10:38:46 <clokep> Anyway, it was just a thought I had. :)
10:39:30 <flo> clokep: but you aren't in the same country. AIM is almost dead here.
10:39:50 <clokep> flo: Yup I know.
10:40:05 <clokep> Contact merging could use some polish too, but I fear that's not interesting. :(
10:40:35 <flo> aleth: also, I think another reason for this change is that when meeting a new person, we exchange only one contact info. It used to be MSN, it's now Facebook (or a gmail email address). I'm almost sure at least 2/3 of the contacts I have only on Facebook or Gtalk also use MSN sometimes
10:41:16 * clokep hates when people don't list an email on their Facebook profile and he ends up having to *gasp* Facebook message them. :(
10:42:00 <flo> clokep: why don't they email you a link to their facebook profile instead? :-D
10:42:19 <flo> that way you start with the email address, and can forget the facebook profile if not interested :)
10:42:38 <clokep> Usually it's people I meet via friends, so we find each other via friend's profiles.
10:42:51 <clokep> I don't know the lsat time I added a facebook friend though...
10:43:23 <clokep> In fact I really need to do a spring cleaning there..
10:43:24 <flo> oh yes, that definitely happens. If you meet ten new people, you add one or two, and then all the others come almost automatically because of the friends of friends suggestions
10:43:49 <aleth> Peak fb has probably passed though...
10:49:41 <aleth> I wonder if the account import wizard could import gtalk contacts for people
10:49:57 <aleth> That would make it easier for people to switch from web-gtalk to a dedicated client
10:50:13 <aleth> Or is that automatic when logging into a gtalk server?
10:50:22 <aleth> (like it is for XMPP in general)
10:50:36 <clokep> Contacts are server side.
10:50:38 * aleth does not gmail himself
10:51:56 <aleth> Well, that's something. So just inertia that stops people from using dedicated clients...
10:52:27 <clokep> I've been told by a lot of friends that they prefer using the gmail interface.
10:52:36 <clokep> I think because they use gmail so then it's all in one place.
10:52:48 <clokep> I find it relaly annoying to have to use my browser, find the right tab, check if I giot a message...
10:52:53 <aleth> Yeah...
10:53:24 <aleth> Webmail is a pain, web-IM is worse.
10:53:41 <aleth> But most people don't agree.
10:54:10 <clokep> Time for work. Ciao.
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12:50:54 <flo> have I said already that I hate focus bugs? :-D
12:52:12 <clokep_work> I'm sure it's come up, what's this one about?
12:52:25 <flo> Thunderbird tabs...
12:52:43 <flo> switching to a tab doesn't automatically put the focus on an element inside that tab
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12:58:27 <clokep_work> Ahhh.
12:58:37 <clokep_work> Yeah Thunderbird tabs in general need a bit of love I think. :(
13:08:16 <aleth> Nice article on JS memory management https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Memory_Management
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13:15:40 * aleth discovers awesome * prefix in FF awesomebar
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13:16:58 <clokep_work> Yeah, that's the only one I know...haha.
13:17:12 <aleth> I knew about %, but I never use that one.
13:17:38 <clokep_work> What's %?
13:17:46 <aleth> restrict to open tabs
13:17:51 <clokep_work> Ahh.
13:17:56 <clokep_work> I don't usually have /that/ many tabs open.
13:18:22 <flo> with auto close tabs installed I rarely have more than 50 tabs :)
13:22:48 <Gizmokid2005> man, 50 tabs...
13:23:00 <Gizmokid2005> I can't remember the days when I had more than 30 open in FF
13:23:14 <Gizmokid2005> and I don't even use tabs in Tbird...just have the main tab and one for calendar.
13:23:17 <meh> one of my friends has 160 on average
13:23:22 <aleth> I probably have around 80
13:23:28 <aleth> Tab groups make it manageable
13:23:34 <Gizmokid2005> ^^ that's the truth
13:23:52 <Gizmokid2005> I can't find a reason to have that many tabs open all the time
13:23:56 <flo> meh: that friend may like https://addons.mozilla.org/en/firefox/addon/autoclose-tabs/
13:24:01 <Gizmokid2005> you can't read them all at once...so use a temporary bookmarks folder :)
13:24:17 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: Much more work than a tab group + load-on-demand
13:24:20 <flo> Gizmokid2005: I can't find a reason to spend time to close tabs.
13:24:22 <Gizmokid2005> now get into bookmarks, I have FAR more than I should...and lots of them are probably broken.
13:24:41 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: right, but it still eats up memory to have them "loaded"
13:24:55 <Gizmokid2005> I know the page isn't, but their existence is a hit to the memory footprint
13:24:55 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: not very much\
13:25:11 <aleth> Memory is there to be used! :)
13:25:17 <Gizmokid2005> and that's fine when I'm at home...but when you get on a machine that barely can run with the ram it has (I use FF Portable), it starts to become an issue
13:25:25 <aleth> ah OK
13:25:33 <Gizmokid2005> like right now, I'm at like 98% memory utilization...and typically sit no less than 90% on a regular basis here.
13:25:45 <Gizmokid2005> now at home...getting over 60% utilization is a WTF moment.
13:25:55 <Gizmokid2005> that happens with 16GB ram...
13:25:59 <Gizmokid2005> compare that to 3GB here...
13:26:46 * clokep_work has 16 at work. ;)
13:26:57 <clokep_work> I too have a ton of bookmarks. :(
13:27:02 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: FF rarely uses more than around 400-500M for me.
13:27:18 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: I see that much RAM only on startup
13:27:38 <Gizmokid2005> right now, it's been running for about 1.5 hours and I'm at >600M already
13:27:47 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: Might be an add-on
13:27:56 <aleth> There are some leaky ones.
13:27:58 <Gizmokid2005> 6 app tabs and 9 normal tabs loaded
13:28:15 <Gizmokid2005> I wouldn't doubt it. I did pick quite a few off recently to help with it, that took me down ~200MB on average
13:28:25 <Gizmokid2005> most of the ones I have now I use, at least somewhat regularly.
13:29:03 <aleth> clokep_work: aren't bookmarks basically just there to improve the awesomebar?
13:29:20 <Gizmokid2005> I wish there was an easy way to track down mem usage to specific addons
13:29:31 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: I think that'
13:29:36 <aleth> s being worked on
13:29:41 <Gizmokid2005> about:memory doesn't really do that currently :(
13:30:03 <clokep_work> aleth: Yes. :)
13:30:27 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: http://blog.mozilla.org/nnethercote/category/memshrink/
13:31:55 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: kind of got the point...care to tl;dr?
13:32:42 <aleth> I'd have to read all of it for that ;)
13:32:51 <Gizmokid2005> haha
13:32:52 <Gizmokid2005> exactly
13:32:57 <Gizmokid2005> it seems that they're fixing mem leaks
13:32:58 <Gizmokid2005> which is good :)
13:33:10 <Gizmokid2005> none of the addons they listed in there I use...which I'm not sure is a good sign or not.
13:33:38 <aleth> Those are the ones that have been fixed ;)
13:33:50 <Gizmokid2005> right
13:34:08 <aleth> Not that all or even most add-ons are leaky of course.
13:34:21 <Gizmokid2005> oh, no I understand that for sure
13:34:52 * flo wonders if this conversations is for #firefox
13:36:15 * Gizmokid2005 glares at flo
13:36:16 <Gizmokid2005> :P
13:36:47 <Gizmokid2005> this is my list of currently enabled addons: http://img.gizmokid2005.com/upload/currentaddons.png
13:37:35 <aleth> Well for trouble-shooting that #firefox is probably a good place to ask.
13:37:54 <Gizmokid2005> ^^ exactly. We're just talking :)
13:41:31 <meh> i wonder how many reviews/users an addon needs to get taken out of experimental
13:41:53 <aleth> meh: An Instantbird add-on?
13:42:06 <meh> aleth, no, firefox
13:42:16 <meh> i was just thinking out loud, sorry
13:42:34 <clokep_work> The developer has to request it be taking out of experimental, it has to be reviewed, I think it needs a a few reviews usually.
13:42:39 <clokep_work> But it's not like an automatic thing.
13:43:20 <meh> when i asked for review they told me the usefulness of the addon wasn't confirmed, not enough users/reviews
13:43:34 <meh> so i'm confined to experimental forever
13:43:36 <flo> meh: some amo editors are annoying :(
13:43:59 <flo> the auto close tabs add-on I mentioned before will also be experimental forever
13:44:01 <clokep_work> meh: You could try asking in #addons or whatever.
13:44:26 <flo> because I use more than one global variable, and the editor claimed that's polluting the global namespace.
13:44:51 <flo> I don't see myself modifying an add-on that works, just to please a reviewer that will never use it anyway, so the situation is unlikely to change
13:44:54 <aleth> It's a shame, because that's definitely a useful add-on
13:44:57 <meh> mine should be clean code wise
13:45:10 <meh> my addon is useless compared to yours though
13:45:11 <flo> meh: mine has a perfectly clean code
13:45:16 <meh> i'm just a privacy freak
13:45:29 <flo> meh: it just doesn't comply with a rule that didn't exist at the time it was initially written
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13:48:13 <meh> do bootstraped extensions work on instantbird?
13:48:46 <flo> of course they do! :)
13:49:22 <clokep_work> They're encouraged in fact. ;)
13:56:09 * clokep_work wonders how difficult it would be to dynamically replace the conversation binding depending on the protocol...
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14:08:13 <flo> clokep_work: do you have a use case in mind?
14:10:20 <clokep_work> flo: Maybe. ;) Was thinking of creating an "IRC operator" extension or something like that, which might give more detailed on conversations in which you're an operator.
14:10:48 <flo> you could just add an attribute on the nicklist maybe?
14:11:02 <flo> or is there are reason to replace the whole conversation binding?
14:11:26 <clokep_work> I'm not sure, depends what I'm trying to do.
14:11:41 <clokep_work> It seems possible via JS though.
14:11:46 <clokep_work> (el.style.MozBinding)
14:12:59 <flo> would it be useful for debugging to have an add-on adding a "View Raw Message" context menu item on each message of JS prpls?
14:13:27 <flo> I'm not sure of how often it would be helpful to see these raw messages, do they often help for debugging?
14:13:35 <clokep_work> That could be useful...
14:13:51 <clokep_work> I've found that generally the bugs aren't in the raw messages of things that show up in conversations. ;)
14:15:38 * bear-afk is now known as bear
14:15:39 <flo> I think it would be quite easy for at least IRC/XMPP/Twitter to add a rawMessage readonly attribute on prplIMessage
14:16:32 <clokep_work> I think adding the attribute in general would be useful, yes.
14:17:07 <clokep_work> (And later on adding an attribute which is somehow a formatted message for nice display would be nice too. :))
14:20:16 <clokep_work> Uhh...is there not a "max" function in C / C++? :-/
14:20:43 <flo> in math.h?
14:24:03 <clokep_work> Doesn't seem to be there...
14:24:40 <aleth> They are standard afaik
14:25:06 <aleth> (in the algorithm header if not math.h)
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14:26:24 <clokep_work> Ah, thank you aleth. Was in algorithm...
14:26:26 <flo> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/algorithm/max/
14:26:28 <clokep_work> (And for C++, not C...)
14:26:50 <aleth> Yeah, in C it's math.h I think
14:27:08 <clokep_work> Yeah the MSVC compiler doesn't seem to have a max in math.h...
14:27:29 <flo> there's also http://en.cppreference.com/w/c/numeric/math/fmax
14:28:17 <clokep_work> Yeah, that doesn't seem to exist hahah.
14:28:26 <clokep_work> std::max worked. :)
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14:30:51 <clokep_work> Thanks.
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14:54:58 * Mic|web is thinking for minutes already what to put into the drop-target-tooltip of bug 1071 :S
14:55:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1071 enh, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Improve look of contact drop target
14:55:31 <flo> ah, so you want to go the tooltip way?
14:57:09 <aleth> A short text and a feature-explaining tooltip?
15:04:51 <clokep_work> "Merged contacts allow you to combine people's identities on different networks into one unified contact to simplify communication."?
15:05:27 <flo> sounds like marketing talk
15:06:13 <flo> + the phrase "Merged contacts" reminds me very bad memories of the time I was using Trillian :)
15:06:57 <Mic|web> I like "combine" much better than "merge". The latter sounds more technical to me.
15:07:05 <aleth> Mic++
15:07:24 <aleth> Combine any contact that is the same person, but on a different account, with this one by dragging and dropping it here.
15:07:36 <Mic|web> I had something with "Create a combined contact .." already but I don't know how to say the rest without a multi-clause sentence :D
15:07:39 <aleth> ^^ not perfect either
15:07:39 <clokep_work> "Combine contacts to allow you to manage your contacts' identities across multiple networks."
15:08:09 <clokep_work> Mic|web: Are you trying to explain what a "combined/merged contact" is or how to do it or both??
15:08:14 <aleth> I think the tooltip can be more context-sensitive, like "what can I do here right now"
15:08:41 <flo> "Drop contacts here to tell Instantbird they are the same person as <contact name>"
15:08:59 <aleth> Yes, something like that :)
15:09:08 <flo> s/tell Instantbird/let Instantbird know/
15:09:42 <aleth> s/Drop contacts/Drag and drop any contact
15:10:05 <Mic|web> And I was wondering whether I should talk about dragging or dropping
15:10:19 <flo> it's a drop target, not something you drag :-S
15:10:36 <aleth> Yes, but what the user has to "do" is drag and drop
15:10:48 <aleth> So the target text should read "Drop" but the tooltip should explain the action?
15:11:47 <aleth> "You can combine any other contact that represents the same person with this one by dragging and dropping it here"
15:12:22 <Mic|web> aleth: that sounds good.
15:13:05 <aleth> maybe there is a way to mix that with flo's suggestion above
15:13:21 <flo> I hope the tooltip won't appear above the contact while dragging
15:13:55 <aleth> That would defeat the purpose :-/
15:14:19 <Mic|web> No tooltips during dragging, as it seems :)
15:14:21 <aleth> But I don't think tooltips appear while you are dragging?
15:15:24 <flo> "Instantbird can deal with several different ways to contact people. To let it know that another contact is the same person, just drag that contact and drop it here."
15:15:33 <flo> too wordy :-/
15:16:00 <flo> aleth: I remember adding some workaround to prevent them from appearing
15:16:25 <aleth> It's actually nicely implemented, with the current target highlighted :)
15:19:36 <Mic|web> "Create a single contact for a person by dragging and dropping [his/her] other contacts here." :S
15:19:40 <aleth> "If you have another contact for the same person on a different account, you can combine it with this one by dragging and dropping it here"
15:20:44 <aleth> This kind of thing is really tricky :-/
15:20:56 <flo> + they can be on the same account :-P
15:21:09 <aleth> True.
15:21:15 <aleth> "If you have another contact for the same person, you can combine it with this one by dragging and dropping it here"
15:22:13 <clokep_work> I like flo's suggestion of putting the person's name in there.
15:22:17 <clokep_work> It's less abstract.
15:22:25 <aleth> Yes.
15:23:28 <clokep_work> (As programmers it's quite easy to understand multiple levels of abstraction, not so easy for users...)
15:25:45 <flo> clokep_work: I don't think I can even understand a sentence like "Combine contacts to allow you to manage your contacts' identities across multiple networks." without making some effort.
15:26:23 <flo> Combine = ? Contacts = ? manager = ? identities = ? contacts' identities = ? network = ? multiple networks = ?
15:26:35 <flo> s/manager/manage/
15:27:23 <aleth> And nobody wants to have to manage contacts ;)
15:27:29 <clokep_work> Yes. :(
15:28:05 <flo> right, doing something to allow me to do more work sounds like I would rather take some vacations ;)
15:29:25 <aleth> Dump all your other contacts for <name> here to get rid of the clutter :P
15:33:40 * aleth thinks he should do a blog post for tab complete when the feature reaches a point where it doesn't change every day
15:34:06 * clokep_work is going to hold aleth to that.
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15:44:54 <Gizmokid2005> tab completion is amazing
15:46:12 <Gizmokid2005> I find myself trying to tab complete more and more things on a regular basis, what with using IRC and linux cli all the time
15:46:36 <aleth> Glad you like it! It's based on a lot of feedback...
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15:51:26 <clokep_work> "It's based on a lot of feedback..." is aleth's code for "Geez, you guys complain a lot." ;)
15:51:50 <flo> heh :)
15:52:28 <Gizmokid2005> haha
15:52:35 <Gizmokid2005> I don't even use instantbird, but hearing tab complete makes me happy :D
15:52:53 <Gizmokid2005> now if only there was a way to keep my chat logs in sync between pidgin and instantbird, I'd probably switch in a heartbeat...at least to try it full time :D
15:53:03 <flo> Gizmokid2005: you should switch to an instantbird nightly immediately (especially for IRC) to see how awesome aleth made it ;)
15:53:22 <Gizmokid2005> well, like I said, let me sync my logs and I will :D
15:53:45 <flo> were you logging in plain text or HTML in Pidgin?
15:53:50 <Gizmokid2005> html
15:54:01 <flo> that sucks :(
15:54:09 <Gizmokid2005> yeah, I had a feeling that would be a sticking point
15:54:15 <Gizmokid2005> otherwise they're pretty much compatible aren't they?
15:54:56 <flo> we used to log in a plain text format that was the same as Pidgin's
15:55:21 <flo> but Pidgin's HTML format is crap (even worse than the plain text format)
15:55:43 <flo> it's not logging what it received, but what it has displayed, which isn't really interesting
15:56:07 <clokep_work> Wait...so...if you have a different message theme it'll log crazy things?
15:56:54 <flo> clokep_work: except it doesn't support message themes (yet)
15:57:08 <flo> well, the current trunk does
15:57:18 <flo> but I think it still logs the HTML the old HTML view would have generated
15:57:35 <Gizmokid2005> I"m not sure how it does, I just know it does what I told it to..lol
15:57:46 <flo> you told it to do crap?
15:57:55 <clokep_work> Ah, OK. So that's not as bad as I initially thought.
15:58:03 <clokep_work> You might be able to recover some information from it still?
15:58:17 <Gizmokid2005> well, I told it to log with formatting...so it did...lol
15:58:18 <flo> yeah, we will be able to import that at some point
15:58:29 <flo> well, some of that
15:58:46 <flo> I don't think it does a better job than the plain/text format at not losing information
15:59:13 <Gizmokid2005> well yeah...reading info out of it is damn near impossible...but
15:59:20 <Gizmokid2005> I might switch to plaintext just to do it.
15:59:32 <Gizmokid2005> really that's all i'm highly concerned with losing when it comes to changing clients
16:00:39 <flo> I can totally understand that
16:01:03 <flo> keeping correct logs is more or less the reason why I tend to always use the same machine for IMing
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16:01:37 <Gizmokid2005> that's why I use PidginPortable
16:01:41 <Gizmokid2005> is so my logs are always there
16:02:02 <flo> you mean you rely on a flash drive not breaking to keep your logs?
16:02:05 <Gizmokid2005> I've got logs dating back to like mid-2008 or earlier.
16:02:10 <Gizmokid2005> nope.
16:02:17 <Gizmokid2005> I rely on an external hard drive that I backup nightly.
16:02:21 <Gizmokid2005> because I've killed 3 flash drives.
16:02:34 <flo> heh, you could have used Instantbird from the start then :-P
16:02:46 <flo> I think I have my logs back to around 2003
16:02:55 <Gizmokid2005> well now instantbird is actually in PA.c format too! :D
16:03:20 <flo> although they are now spread across several hard drives, and 4 different file formats.
16:03:59 <Gizmokid2005> yeah, I like centralized info :)
16:04:07 <clokep_work> I forget if I trashed my Pidgin logs when I switched or if I kept 'em. If so I have back to like 2005... if not like 2008 or 09.
16:04:24 <Gizmokid2005> I had 2 different flash drives corrupt on me, one brand twice, hence why I went to an external hard drive
16:04:31 <Gizmokid2005> it's more of a hassle, but absolutely worth it.
16:05:15 <Gizmokid2005> since I run Thunderbird, Firefox, Pidgin, Notepad++, KVIrc, Skype, PuTTY, VLC, SpeedCrunch, Filezilla, and Songbird from it regularly...at the same time.
16:06:23 <flo> I also carry around a hard drive. Its case is called "MacBook" though. ;)
16:07:46 <clokep_work> So...I didn't have a flash drive till like a yera and a half ago. ;)
16:07:51 <Gizmokid2005> well see, I spend way more time on my desktop at home, and I don't think my company would be thrilled if I carried around my own laptop
16:08:05 <Gizmokid2005> not that I would...since my laptop is a lower-end MBP
16:08:12 <Gizmokid2005> but...lunch is begging my name, so...bb in ~1 hour
16:14:36 * clokep_work just spent 45 minutes tracking down a bug caused by using < instead of <=. :(
16:15:15 <flo> I spent several hours tracking a focus bug ;)
16:15:24 <clokep_work> Did you find it at least? :)
16:15:29 <flo> I finally just added an event.preventDefault() call and it disappeared
16:18:15 <clokep_work> That sounds hacky...
16:18:42 <flo> no, the problem is that I was correctly focusing what I needed, but doing that from a mousedown event
16:18:57 <flo> and the focus was changed by something happening later (on mouseup maybe?)
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16:24:17 <Mic|web> After most likely years already I updated "Join Chat" again ... it's now showing the new tab button in the tab bar. Would be cool if I could show the contents of the join chat dialog in a panel attached to from it.
16:24:39 <flo> is it difficult to do?
16:28:11 <Mic|web> I don't know yet.
16:29:47 <clokep_work> Awesome Mic|web! :)
16:29:56 <clokep_work> One of us should just sit down and make that damn new convo page
16:32:12 <Mic|web> What's awesome? That I managed to set "display: block !important" on the classes for the new-tab button? :P
16:33:47 <flo> Mic|web: why wouldn't that be awesome? :)
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16:38:50 <flo> these 3 lines of code sound like something we should copy for your log viewer: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mail/base/content/mailWindowOverlay.js#2921
16:38:58 <flo> anybody interested in doing a trivial patch? ;)
16:39:06 <flo> I think we already have a bug on file for that
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16:47:21 <flo> nobody has ever filed a bug requesting that we add support for printing a conversation?
16:47:30 <flo> it seems dead trees are deprecated :)
16:48:35 <clokep_work> There's a bug about exporting I think?
16:49:03 <flo> yes
16:49:33 <flo> but it shouldn't be too difficult to add support for Command+P to open the print dialog for the current <browser> (both in the conv windows and in the log viewer)
16:49:43 <flo> it just seems nobody ever wanted that :)
16:50:54 <Mook_as> I'd want to disable that ;)
16:50:59 * Mook_as doesn't even have a printer at home
16:51:14 <flo> not having a printer sounds like a sure way to disable the feature ;)
16:51:28 <clokep_work> I don't have a printer either actually. :)
16:52:28 <Mook_as> oh, I assumed you have one _somewhere_ at work
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16:52:55 <flo> there are at least 7 printers at my parents'
16:53:28 <flo> probably no more than 2 of them are sometimes useds
16:53:32 <flo> *used
16:54:02 <clokep_work> How many work? ;)
16:54:11 <Mook_as> how many are impact printers? :D
16:54:29 * bear is now known as bear-afk
16:54:29 <flo> Mook_as: we still have one in the attic, but I haven't counted it
16:55:16 <Mic|web> OK, the panel is still misplaced and doesn't close but I can load the dialog into an iframe inside of it and it works to join a chat from there.
16:55:31 <flo> clokep_work: I think they would all work with new ink and some paper
16:57:00 <clokep_work> Nice. :)
16:59:11 <Mic|web> bbl
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17:21:14 <flo> clokep_work: thanks!
17:23:04 <meh> does instantbird support avatars?
17:23:33 <Mook_as> it supports little pictures for people
17:23:54 <flo> meh: does your terminal support them? :-P
17:24:12 <meh> flo, sure, libcaca ;)
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17:36:36 <flo> Good evening
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18:39:47 <aleth> How's this look? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/33431
18:40:06 <aleth> Kept it broad-brush and assuming not much will change...
18:42:56 <meh> that is some complex completion
18:43:16 <gpsychosis> That's how I'd expect it to work, though
18:43:23 <gpsychosis> and I'm a simpleton
18:43:24 <aleth> well, hopefully it's not complex to /use/
18:44:14 <Mook_as> that seems useful as developer documentation ;)
18:45:13 <aleth> Ideally you don't need to read a blog post to use it ;)
18:46:43 <clokep_work> aleth: I made some changes (don't feel you need to take them, I just tried to make you sound more excited :P) http://pastebin.instantbird.com/33432
18:47:31 <aleth> I'm a bit worried that it's already too detailed/long. It's not meant to look complicated...
18:47:42 <clokep_work> aleth: Screenshots!
18:47:56 <aleth> clokep_work: thanks!
18:48:12 <aleth> I doubt screenshots of a textbox are compelling though...
18:48:51 * bear-afk is now known as bear
18:49:07 <Mic|web> A video maybe? ;)
18:49:07 <aleth> I'll have to think about that
18:49:14 <aleth> umm...
18:50:27 <clokep_work> aleth: You show a before and after screenshots, not the full window, just snippets.
18:50:39 <clokep_work> P.S. I'd really like show nick to highlight the nicks in the input box too. :)
18:51:00 <aleth> Did you see Mic's latest bug filing?
18:51:12 <clokep_work> Probably, he files so many though....
18:51:13 <clokep_work> What was it?
18:51:17 <clokep_work> bug 1404?
18:51:19 <aleth> Not spell-checking nicks
18:51:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add "Your account is reconnected" system message
18:51:29 <clokep_work> Ah...yes, well that too. :)
18:51:56 <clokep_work> (Ideally they should be added to the list of corrections too! :))
18:52:11 <aleth> I suspect that's the same thing ;)
18:53:05 <aleth> No idea how hard it is to add features to the inputbox...
18:54:05 <clokep_work> Essentially impossible AFAIK.
18:54:21 <clokep_work> If we replace it with an editor element things like that become a lot more reasonable.
18:54:29 <Mook_as> if you do videos, please make them animated gifs or something :)
18:54:38 <clokep_work> (Well the spellcheck stuff shold be doable.)
18:55:03 <aleth> Mook_as: More than an animated gif of some sort is definitely not going to happen ;)
18:58:58 <clokep_work> An animated gif could work well though...I'll show you later what I meant though...
18:59:34 <Mic|web> Ah, cool :)
19:00:00 <aleth> Definitely not going to stick with the current text... it's far too programmerish
19:00:02 <Mic|web> I hacked something together that fetches the last ten messages from the logs and shows them in the conversation :)
19:00:11 <aleth> yay :)
19:00:21 <aleth> bug 958 is getting fixed ;)
19:00:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows
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19:01:14 <Mic|web> I wish the logger would support something like "get last N messages from the logs, even if they were in different sessions"
19:01:32 <aleth> Do you have to recurse on the files?
19:03:29 <Mic|web> I don't have to access any files myself, the logger does all that.
19:03:32 <clokep_work> aleth: I think it's good to show a bit about the algorithm in there and what went into it (techie people like to read that), maybe if you could do it as asides almost...?
19:04:04 <aleth> clokep_work: So the intended audience for feature posts is mainly planetmozilla?
19:04:22 <aleth> Does your wordpress support html5 slideshows?
19:04:24 <clokep_work> aleth: It's people who read our blog, so people who read Planet Mozilla + people who care about the software enough to follow our blog.
19:04:28 <Mic|web> But I'm reading all logs to sort them by time and then start going through them to count messages. It's not optimal atm but it seems to work OK so far
19:04:57 <clokep_work> So...generally people who are techie-ish, but of course you want to make it readable as well.
19:05:03 <aleth> Sounds great Mic|web :) It'll be good to finally have that feature
19:05:03 <clokep_work> I think flo did a great job with the Time Bubbles post.
19:05:28 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: Going home.)
19:10:49 <aleth> Something is wrong with the font sizes of the titles in the IB blog CSS :-/
19:11:18 <aleth> They are tiny
19:43:25 <Mic|web> bye
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19:57:42 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep 
19:59:36 <clokep> aleth: Yes, the blog isn't perfect. :(
20:02:43 --> qheaden has joined #instantbird
20:03:02 <qheaden> clokep: Hey there. Did you ever get my reply email?
20:03:34 <clokep> qheaden: Yes, we did.
20:04:31 <qheaden> Great!
20:04:49 <qheaden> Like I said in the email, I'm busy with other things right now, but I will be back to work on that console.
20:06:14 <clokep> qheaden: Great, can't wait for you to start on it. :) I ran into an issue the otherday where I needed it. :P
20:06:41 <qheaden> Yeah, it really is important. :)
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20:21:07 * bear is now known as bear-afk
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20:44:32 <clokep> aleth: In the message theme you made...do you use a jar in it or not?
20:45:00 <aleth> Which message theme?
20:45:12 <clokep> Bubbles Light or something?
20:45:21 <aleth> Hmm, let me check
20:45:35 * clokep is confused why his chrome.manifest doesn't work.
20:45:47 <aleth> Yes
20:46:17 <aleth> However when I bugfixed the Minimal2 one, I think I ditched the jar
20:46:29 <aleth> Maybe look at that one?
20:46:34 <clokep> Error: uncaught exception: Incoming/Content.html is a required file :-S
20:46:40 <clokep> K, thanks.
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20:56:19 <clokep> Bah I have no idea why this isn't working. :(
20:56:26 * clokep is trying to update the rules.mk file from the add-ons repo.
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21:08:35 <aleth> Did the skin line from that message style not work for you?
21:25:36 <clokep> Nah I was just an idiot.
21:25:40 <clokep> I needed an extra * in the makefile.
21:25:44 <clokep> Anyway. I haeve to go. Ciao
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22:05:22 <flo> aleth: thanks for writing this! :-)
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22:06:45 <flo> I won't agree with Mook_as: it doesn't look like developer documentation. I would rather say, user documentation.
22:07:08 <Mook_as> yeah, I meant that more as "could live near the algorithm as a reminder"
22:07:20 <Mook_as> but I suspect there's no "the algorithm" to live next to...
22:07:33 <aleth> Thanks- it's only a draft so far...
22:08:38 <aleth> There are a bunch of details missing on purpose (they should "just work" ;)
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22:09:32 <flo> as clokep said though, I'm afraid it doesn't sound very exciting
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22:09:51 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 
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22:10:02 <aleth> Yep
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22:10:14 <flo> there a certain category of users who love to rtfm, but I suspect lots of our users prefer to tl;dr
22:10:43 <aleth> tl;dr: tab completion now marginally less annoying :D
22:11:12 <aleth> In a way, if you need the post, the feature has failed...
22:11:23 <flo> apparently clokep liked the Time bubbles post. I think the main difference is that the time bubble post was telling users a story: it wasn't explaining how the feature is, but why it is like this
22:11:40 <aleth> Yes, that's a really nice post
22:11:49 <aleth> More about the design decisions
22:11:54 <flo> the goal of the post was more to show the way we think/design than the way it can be used
22:12:48 <aleth> Ultimately I would like the tab complete post to just raise awareness a little, without anyone having to read much
22:14:10 <aleth> I'll have to think about it some more
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22:14:22 <flo> I would say, either tell people a story (what we have done/why) or explain why the tab completion of all other clients sucks
22:14:47 <aleth> other clients have tab completion? :P
22:14:51 <flo> but definitely keep the text you pastebined somewhere (on the wiki maybe?)
22:15:15 <flo> aleth: yes. You notice it because lots of people frequently ping the wrong nick ;).
22:15:41 <flo> a tab completion that works shouldn't be noticeable by other people, it should just save *you* time
22:16:26 <Mook_as> ideally, it shouldn't be noticeable by you either ;)
22:17:17 <aleth> When people notice, they file a bug ;)
22:18:15 <flo> Mook_as: I'm not sure about that
22:18:53 <flo> Mook_as: is a well designed feature a feature that you never notice any more, or a feature that you enjoy using and that makes you happy when you see it working?
22:19:13 <Mook_as> ah, for me I wouldn't think of nick completion as one that makes me happy
22:19:27 <Mook_as> since it's (to the user) not a complicated thing
22:19:36 <Mook_as> (the actual code is complicated of course :p )
22:20:41 <aleth> Yes, in a way the design decisions become invisible, but are there... e.g. completion in the style of a code editor would be wrong
22:20:51 <flo> Mook_as: well, a feature makes me happy when it significantly exceed what I expected it would do, but in a good way (ie it's not doing more crap that I'll have to undo by hand). So thinks like replacing the ":" between 2 nicks with a coma would qualify for what I call enjoyable
22:21:11 <Mook_as> I guess I don't enjoy software as much as you do :)
22:21:17 <flo> *things
22:21:35 <flo> Mook_as: it's not software that I enjoy, but good design.
22:21:49 <flo> the same thing would also apply for physical objects
22:21:57 <aleth> flo++
22:22:30 <Mic> Isn't "being excited about tab complete" and "enjoy using this feature" a bit exaggerated, btw? ;)
22:23:16 <aleth> Mic: I didn't write anything like that...
22:24:04 <aleth> Btw you could turn it around and say bad design causes frustration. Is it real frustration? maybe not, but irritating in a small way...
22:24:06 <flo> aleth: I did
22:26:36 <Mook_as> bad design for me can definitely cause something resembling frustration
22:26:46 <Mook_as> (but I'd probably stop using whatever-it-was soon)
22:27:04 <aleth> In the same way good design is pleasing
22:30:11 <Mook_as> right, it's not quite that I don't understand the concept, I just... don't see it ever applying to me, I think.
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22:32:04 <flo> Mook_as: I think you need to have felt the frustration for that specific problem before for a really enjoyable effect ;)
22:32:31 <Mook_as> possibly; though I think long term I'd stop noticing anyway, I expect things to Work ;)
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22:32:48 <aleth> I also think that features that are like 95% done are not 5% annoying but 50% annoying, at least.
22:33:32 <aleth> For some reason little nits in otherwise good solutions can have disparate impact (maybe because if it was just bad you wouldn't be using it anyway)
22:33:48 <flo> Mook_as: long term, you become addicted to good design, no longer notice it, but are extremely frustrated when going back to something not as well designed
22:33:54 <Mook_as> quote from a different channel yesterday:
22:33:56 <Mook_as> The first 90% of the code accounts for the first 90% of the development time. The remaining 10% of the code accounts for the other 90% of the development time. --Tom Cargill
22:34:16 <Mook_as> flo: pretty much that, yeah :)
22:35:11 <aleth> heh
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22:53:59 <flo> Good night
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