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00:06:06 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 00:06:06 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep 00:12:00 <-- myk has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 00:13:58 <aleth> clokep: Did you see this rather dramatic review? https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/255 00:14:08 <aleth> At least I don't get emails for reviews when they are added :-/ 00:15:11 <clokep> aleth: No one does... 00:15:21 <clokep> And yes, I did. 00:15:25 <clokep> It's old. I had an email conversation w/ the guy. 00:15:58 <aleth> You might want to reply on the page too or people might not download the add-on ;) 00:17:33 <clokep> aleth: Yes, but it doesn't work right now. ;) 00:18:55 <aleth> oh ok :P 00:20:32 <clokep> Or maybe it does, I forget. :( 00:20:37 <clokep> It certainly doesn't crash the application. 00:22:41 <clokep> I've been wantnign to convert it to JS-XMPP...but the cert is invalid so... 00:25:33 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 00:30:04 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 00:43:31 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1408 on bug 1366. 00:43:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick 00:44:36 <clokep> Bah was hoping to do that before aleth went to bed. :( 00:51:50 <-- meh has quit (Quit: I don't want to live on this planet anymore.) 00:55:28 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from the wind for attachment 1409 on bug 1405. 00:55:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1405 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Replace Wiki main page with Developer page 01:05:13 <-- Mook_as has quit (Quit: gone) 01:33:03 <-- wnayes has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 01:46:41 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 03:03:38 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Ping timeout) 03:10:00 --> Kaishi has joined #instantbird 03:13:14 <instant-buildbot> build #477 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/477 03:36:11 --> meh has joined #instantbird 03:37:30 --> skeledrew has joined #instantbird 04:29:45 <-- EionRobb has quit (Ping timeout) 04:29:48 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 04:56:09 <-- meh has quit (Quit: I don't want to live on this planet anymore.) 04:57:44 --> meh has joined #instantbird 05:00:22 <-- EionRobb has quit (Quit: Leaving.) 05:32:09 <-- Tomek has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1) 05:50:48 <instant-buildbot> build #568 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/568 05:53:21 --> NmN has joined #instantbird 05:55:05 --> jb has joined #instantbird 06:08:14 <instant-buildbot> build #465 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful] Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/465 06:10:59 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 06:27:49 <-- EionRobb has quit (Quit: Leaving.) 06:29:28 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 06:31:08 <-- EionRobb has quit (Ping timeout) 06:34:30 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 06:40:53 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout) 07:43:17 <-- meh has quit (Ping timeout) 07:43:50 --> jb has joined #instantbird 07:47:42 --> jb1 has joined #instantbird 07:57:32 --> Tomek has joined #instantbird 08:03:53 <-- Suiseiseki has quit (Ping timeout) 08:06:02 --> Suiseiseki has joined #instantbird 08:14:23 --> aleth has joined #instantbird 08:14:23 * ChanServ sets mode +h aleth 08:22:54 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm granted review for attachment 1408 on bug 1366. 08:22:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick 08:25:52 --> Even has joined #instantbird 08:25:52 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 08:25:59 <-- Even has quit (Quit: Even) 08:26:07 --> Even has joined #instantbird 08:26:07 * ChanServ sets mode +o Even 08:37:34 --> gerard-majax has joined #instantbird 08:38:15 <-- Tomek has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1) 08:41:21 <-- EionRobb has quit (Ping timeout) 09:18:08 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 09:18:52 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Connection reset by peer) 09:18:56 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 09:24:47 --> flo has joined #instantbird 09:24:47 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 09:32:19 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 09:44:23 <-- jb has quit (Quit: jb) 09:48:33 --> meh has joined #instantbird 09:56:42 --> sonny has joined #instantbird 10:01:34 --> jb has joined #instantbird 10:02:08 <-- jb1 has quit (Ping timeout) 10:11:26 --> pvagner has joined #instantbird 10:12:19 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 10:12:19 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 10:13:40 <Mic> Hello 10:13:51 <flo> hi :) 10:14:03 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 10:14:41 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 10:14:42 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 10:14:47 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 10:14:47 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep 10:21:10 <clokep> Hello. 10:22:15 <meh> hello 10:25:40 <clokep> flo: So I was thinking about it more (what we should focus on)...and I realize we tend to spend a lot of our time focusing on chatting in MUCs (probably because we all do that a lot here...and it's a more interested/complicated problem). 10:26:09 --> Tomek has joined #instantbird 10:26:14 <clokep> But there probably is some work to be done in private conversations (I.e. better handling of a merged contact going offline, etc.) 10:26:24 <clokep> s/i.e./e.g./ 10:27:23 <flo> do you have personal itches to scratch there? 10:28:02 <clokep> I'm not sure...I'd need to think about if there's things that annoy me while IMing people. :) 10:28:29 <clokep> You know like not being able to see or hear them or send them a file. ;) 10:28:32 * clokep trolls.... 10:28:33 <flo> I don't think I IM people much these days 10:28:40 <aleth> I don't know how hard it would be to grab and integrate the FileLink code, but file transfer would make a lot of people happy... 10:29:38 <aleth> flo: Interesting. What do you put it down to? 10:30:00 <clokep> aleth: Well we would need to copy and paste it (== bad) because it's in c-c not m-c. 10:30:02 <flo> "it"? 10:30:45 <flo> clokep: shouldn't ib be in c-c then? :) 10:31:06 <clokep> "it" = the FileLink code. 10:31:12 <clokep> flo: Sounds like a good reason to me. ;) 10:31:25 <flo> clokep: that question was for aleth, sorry 10:31:42 <aleth> flo: "it" - not using IM much anymore 10:32:21 <flo> aleth: My friends aren't online any more during my work day, I'm rarely in front of the computer during the week-end (and I suspect they aren't either) 10:33:32 <clokep> Most of my IMing is done during work hours actually...only crappy gmail and mibbit. :-/ 10:33:56 <aleth> My experience is also the gtalk takeover of IM... 10:34:09 <flo> gtalk and facebook 10:35:06 <flo> the only contact I still see online for AIM is myself. For MSN, only people who I haven't talked to during the last 2 or 3 years, or with whom I talk over Gtalk (and the MSN buddies are hidden in contacts anyway) 10:36:09 <flo> -> I wouldn't miss any real contact if we turned off libpurple 10:38:14 <clokep> I talk to most of my friends on AIM cause that's how I roll...but I have GTalk contacts merged in for all of them, so pretty much the same for me. 10:38:15 <aleth> I still have MSN and XMPP contacts. MSN tends to be people who are (roughly speaking) less computer-savvy 10:38:46 <clokep> Anyway, it was just a thought I had. :) 10:39:30 <flo> clokep: but you aren't in the same country. AIM is almost dead here. 10:39:50 <clokep> flo: Yup I know. 10:40:05 <clokep> Contact merging could use some polish too, but I fear that's not interesting. :( 10:40:35 <flo> aleth: also, I think another reason for this change is that when meeting a new person, we exchange only one contact info. It used to be MSN, it's now Facebook (or a gmail email address). I'm almost sure at least 2/3 of the contacts I have only on Facebook or Gtalk also use MSN sometimes 10:41:16 * clokep hates when people don't list an email on their Facebook profile and he ends up having to *gasp* Facebook message them. :( 10:42:00 <flo> clokep: why don't they email you a link to their facebook profile instead? :-D 10:42:19 <flo> that way you start with the email address, and can forget the facebook profile if not interested :) 10:42:38 <clokep> Usually it's people I meet via friends, so we find each other via friend's profiles. 10:42:51 <clokep> I don't know the lsat time I added a facebook friend though... 10:43:23 <clokep> In fact I really need to do a spring cleaning there.. 10:43:24 <flo> oh yes, that definitely happens. If you meet ten new people, you add one or two, and then all the others come almost automatically because of the friends of friends suggestions 10:43:49 <aleth> Peak fb has probably passed though... 10:49:41 <aleth> I wonder if the account import wizard could import gtalk contacts for people 10:49:57 <aleth> That would make it easier for people to switch from web-gtalk to a dedicated client 10:50:13 <aleth> Or is that automatic when logging into a gtalk server? 10:50:22 <aleth> (like it is for XMPP in general) 10:50:36 <clokep> Contacts are server side. 10:50:38 * aleth does not gmail himself 10:51:56 <aleth> Well, that's something. So just inertia that stops people from using dedicated clients... 10:52:27 <clokep> I've been told by a lot of friends that they prefer using the gmail interface. 10:52:36 <clokep> I think because they use gmail so then it's all in one place. 10:52:48 <clokep> I find it relaly annoying to have to use my browser, find the right tab, check if I giot a message... 10:52:53 <aleth> Yeah... 10:53:24 <aleth> Webmail is a pain, web-IM is worse. 10:53:41 <aleth> But most people don't agree. 10:54:10 <clokep> Time for work. Ciao. 10:54:14 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 10:57:44 <-- NmN has quit (Ping timeout) 11:03:08 <-- Tomek has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1) 11:07:25 <-- sonny has quit (Ping timeout) 11:29:54 --> clokep_work has joined #instantbird 11:29:54 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep_work 11:42:06 --> sonny has joined #instantbird 11:51:37 <-- gerard-majax has quit (Client exited) 11:54:31 --> gerard-majax has joined #instantbird 11:56:02 --> Tomek has joined #instantbird 11:59:31 --> NmN has joined #instantbird 12:01:29 <-- Kaishi has quit (Quit: Kaishi) 12:20:52 <-- Mic has quit (Input/output error) 12:28:12 --> kermie has joined #instantbird 12:35:09 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout) 12:36:59 <-- meh has quit (Ping timeout) 12:50:54 <flo> have I said already that I hate focus bugs? :-D 12:52:12 <clokep_work> I'm sure it's come up, what's this one about? 12:52:25 <flo> Thunderbird tabs... 12:52:43 <flo> switching to a tab doesn't automatically put the focus on an element inside that tab 12:55:16 --> jc has joined #instantbird 12:58:27 <clokep_work> Ahhh. 12:58:37 <clokep_work> Yeah Thunderbird tabs in general need a bit of love I think. :( 13:08:16 <aleth> Nice article on JS memory management https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript/Memory_Management 13:12:56 --> meh has joined #instantbird 13:15:40 * aleth discovers awesome * prefix in FF awesomebar 13:16:08 <-- pvagner has quit (Ping timeout) 13:16:42 <-- kermie has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 13:16:58 <clokep_work> Yeah, that's the only one I know...haha. 13:17:12 <aleth> I knew about %, but I never use that one. 13:17:38 <clokep_work> What's %? 13:17:46 <aleth> restrict to open tabs 13:17:51 <clokep_work> Ahh. 13:17:56 <clokep_work> I don't usually have /that/ many tabs open. 13:18:22 <flo> with auto close tabs installed I rarely have more than 50 tabs :) 13:22:48 <Gizmokid2005> man, 50 tabs... 13:23:00 <Gizmokid2005> I can't remember the days when I had more than 30 open in FF 13:23:14 <Gizmokid2005> and I don't even use tabs in Tbird...just have the main tab and one for calendar. 13:23:17 <meh> one of my friends has 160 on average 13:23:22 <aleth> I probably have around 80 13:23:28 <aleth> Tab groups make it manageable 13:23:34 <Gizmokid2005> ^^ that's the truth 13:23:52 <Gizmokid2005> I can't find a reason to have that many tabs open all the time 13:23:56 <flo> meh: that friend may like https://addons.mozilla.org/en/firefox/addon/autoclose-tabs/ 13:24:01 <Gizmokid2005> you can't read them all at once...so use a temporary bookmarks folder :) 13:24:17 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: Much more work than a tab group + load-on-demand 13:24:20 <flo> Gizmokid2005: I can't find a reason to spend time to close tabs. 13:24:22 <Gizmokid2005> now get into bookmarks, I have FAR more than I should...and lots of them are probably broken. 13:24:41 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: right, but it still eats up memory to have them "loaded" 13:24:55 <Gizmokid2005> I know the page isn't, but their existence is a hit to the memory footprint 13:24:55 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: not very much\ 13:25:11 <aleth> Memory is there to be used! :) 13:25:17 <Gizmokid2005> and that's fine when I'm at home...but when you get on a machine that barely can run with the ram it has (I use FF Portable), it starts to become an issue 13:25:25 <aleth> ah OK 13:25:33 <Gizmokid2005> like right now, I'm at like 98% memory utilization...and typically sit no less than 90% on a regular basis here. 13:25:45 <Gizmokid2005> now at home...getting over 60% utilization is a WTF moment. 13:25:55 <Gizmokid2005> that happens with 16GB ram... 13:25:59 <Gizmokid2005> compare that to 3GB here... 13:26:46 * clokep_work has 16 at work. ;) 13:26:57 <clokep_work> I too have a ton of bookmarks. :( 13:27:02 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: FF rarely uses more than around 400-500M for me. 13:27:18 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: I see that much RAM only on startup 13:27:38 <Gizmokid2005> right now, it's been running for about 1.5 hours and I'm at >600M already 13:27:47 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: Might be an add-on 13:27:56 <aleth> There are some leaky ones. 13:27:58 <Gizmokid2005> 6 app tabs and 9 normal tabs loaded 13:28:15 <Gizmokid2005> I wouldn't doubt it. I did pick quite a few off recently to help with it, that took me down ~200MB on average 13:28:25 <Gizmokid2005> most of the ones I have now I use, at least somewhat regularly. 13:29:03 <aleth> clokep_work: aren't bookmarks basically just there to improve the awesomebar? 13:29:20 <Gizmokid2005> I wish there was an easy way to track down mem usage to specific addons 13:29:31 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: I think that' 13:29:36 <aleth> s being worked on 13:29:41 <Gizmokid2005> about:memory doesn't really do that currently :( 13:30:03 <clokep_work> aleth: Yes. :) 13:30:27 <aleth> Gizmokid2005: http://blog.mozilla.org/nnethercote/category/memshrink/ 13:31:55 <Gizmokid2005> aleth: kind of got the point...care to tl;dr? 13:32:42 <aleth> I'd have to read all of it for that ;) 13:32:51 <Gizmokid2005> haha 13:32:52 <Gizmokid2005> exactly 13:32:57 <Gizmokid2005> it seems that they're fixing mem leaks 13:32:58 <Gizmokid2005> which is good :) 13:33:10 <Gizmokid2005> none of the addons they listed in there I use...which I'm not sure is a good sign or not. 13:33:38 <aleth> Those are the ones that have been fixed ;) 13:33:50 <Gizmokid2005> right 13:34:08 <aleth> Not that all or even most add-ons are leaky of course. 13:34:21 <Gizmokid2005> oh, no I understand that for sure 13:34:52 * flo wonders if this conversations is for #firefox 13:36:15 * Gizmokid2005 glares at flo 13:36:16 <Gizmokid2005> :P 13:36:47 <Gizmokid2005> this is my list of currently enabled addons: http://img.gizmokid2005.com/upload/currentaddons.png 13:37:35 <aleth> Well for trouble-shooting that #firefox is probably a good place to ask. 13:37:54 <Gizmokid2005> ^^ exactly. We're just talking :) 13:41:31 <meh> i wonder how many reviews/users an addon needs to get taken out of experimental 13:41:53 <aleth> meh: An Instantbird add-on? 13:42:06 <meh> aleth, no, firefox 13:42:16 <meh> i was just thinking out loud, sorry 13:42:34 <clokep_work> The developer has to request it be taking out of experimental, it has to be reviewed, I think it needs a a few reviews usually. 13:42:39 <clokep_work> But it's not like an automatic thing. 13:43:20 <meh> when i asked for review they told me the usefulness of the addon wasn't confirmed, not enough users/reviews 13:43:34 <meh> so i'm confined to experimental forever 13:43:36 <flo> meh: some amo editors are annoying :( 13:43:59 <flo> the auto close tabs add-on I mentioned before will also be experimental forever 13:44:01 <clokep_work> meh: You could try asking in #addons or whatever. 13:44:26 <flo> because I use more than one global variable, and the editor claimed that's polluting the global namespace. 13:44:51 <flo> I don't see myself modifying an add-on that works, just to please a reviewer that will never use it anyway, so the situation is unlikely to change 13:44:54 <aleth> It's a shame, because that's definitely a useful add-on 13:44:57 <meh> mine should be clean code wise 13:45:10 <meh> my addon is useless compared to yours though 13:45:11 <flo> meh: mine has a perfectly clean code 13:45:16 <meh> i'm just a privacy freak 13:45:29 <flo> meh: it just doesn't comply with a rule that didn't exist at the time it was initially written 13:48:01 <-- NmN has quit (Ping timeout) 13:48:13 <meh> do bootstraped extensions work on instantbird? 13:48:46 <flo> of course they do! :) 13:49:22 <clokep_work> They're encouraged in fact. ;) 13:56:09 * clokep_work wonders how difficult it would be to dynamically replace the conversation binding depending on the protocol... 13:57:38 --> pvagner has joined #instantbird 14:04:18 --> Mic|web has joined #instantbird 14:06:18 <-- gerard-majax has quit (Ping timeout) 14:07:53 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 14:08:13 <flo> clokep_work: do you have a use case in mind? 14:10:20 <clokep_work> flo: Maybe. ;) Was thinking of creating an "IRC operator" extension or something like that, which might give more detailed on conversations in which you're an operator. 14:10:48 <flo> you could just add an attribute on the nicklist maybe? 14:11:02 <flo> or is there are reason to replace the whole conversation binding? 14:11:26 <clokep_work> I'm not sure, depends what I'm trying to do. 14:11:41 <clokep_work> It seems possible via JS though. 14:11:46 <clokep_work> (el.style.MozBinding) 14:12:59 <flo> would it be useful for debugging to have an add-on adding a "View Raw Message" context menu item on each message of JS prpls? 14:13:27 <flo> I'm not sure of how often it would be helpful to see these raw messages, do they often help for debugging? 14:13:35 <clokep_work> That could be useful... 14:13:51 <clokep_work> I've found that generally the bugs aren't in the raw messages of things that show up in conversations. ;) 14:15:38 * bear-afk is now known as bear 14:15:39 <flo> I think it would be quite easy for at least IRC/XMPP/Twitter to add a rawMessage readonly attribute on prplIMessage 14:16:32 <clokep_work> I think adding the attribute in general would be useful, yes. 14:17:07 <clokep_work> (And later on adding an attribute which is somehow a formatted message for nice display would be nice too. :)) 14:20:16 <clokep_work> Uhh...is there not a "max" function in C / C++? :-/ 14:20:43 <flo> in math.h? 14:24:03 <clokep_work> Doesn't seem to be there... 14:24:40 <aleth> They are standard afaik 14:25:06 <aleth> (in the algorithm header if not math.h) 14:25:47 <-- pvagner has quit (Ping timeout) 14:26:24 <clokep_work> Ah, thank you aleth. Was in algorithm... 14:26:26 <flo> http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/algorithm/max/ 14:26:28 <clokep_work> (And for C++, not C...) 14:26:50 <aleth> Yeah, in C it's math.h I think 14:27:08 <clokep_work> Yeah the MSVC compiler doesn't seem to have a max in math.h... 14:27:29 <flo> there's also http://en.cppreference.com/w/c/numeric/math/fmax 14:28:17 <clokep_work> Yeah, that doesn't seem to exist hahah. 14:28:26 <clokep_work> std::max worked. :) 14:30:01 --> NmN has joined #instantbird 14:30:51 <clokep_work> Thanks. 14:45:26 --> gerard-majax has joined #instantbird 14:54:58 * Mic|web is thinking for minutes already what to put into the drop-target-tooltip of bug 1071 :S 14:55:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1071 enh, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Improve look of contact drop target 14:55:31 <flo> ah, so you want to go the tooltip way? 14:57:09 <aleth> A short text and a feature-explaining tooltip? 15:04:51 <clokep_work> "Merged contacts allow you to combine people's identities on different networks into one unified contact to simplify communication."? 15:05:27 <flo> sounds like marketing talk 15:06:13 <flo> + the phrase "Merged contacts" reminds me very bad memories of the time I was using Trillian :) 15:06:57 <Mic|web> I like "combine" much better than "merge". The latter sounds more technical to me. 15:07:05 <aleth> Mic++ 15:07:24 <aleth> Combine any contact that is the same person, but on a different account, with this one by dragging and dropping it here. 15:07:36 <Mic|web> I had something with "Create a combined contact .." already but I don't know how to say the rest without a multi-clause sentence :D 15:07:39 <aleth> ^^ not perfect either 15:07:39 <clokep_work> "Combine contacts to allow you to manage your contacts' identities across multiple networks." 15:08:09 <clokep_work> Mic|web: Are you trying to explain what a "combined/merged contact" is or how to do it or both?? 15:08:14 <aleth> I think the tooltip can be more context-sensitive, like "what can I do here right now" 15:08:41 <flo> "Drop contacts here to tell Instantbird they are the same person as <contact name>" 15:08:59 <aleth> Yes, something like that :) 15:09:08 <flo> s/tell Instantbird/let Instantbird know/ 15:09:42 <aleth> s/Drop contacts/Drag and drop any contact 15:10:05 <Mic|web> And I was wondering whether I should talk about dragging or dropping 15:10:19 <flo> it's a drop target, not something you drag :-S 15:10:36 <aleth> Yes, but what the user has to "do" is drag and drop 15:10:48 <aleth> So the target text should read "Drop" but the tooltip should explain the action? 15:11:47 <aleth> "You can combine any other contact that represents the same person with this one by dragging and dropping it here" 15:12:22 <Mic|web> aleth: that sounds good. 15:13:05 <aleth> maybe there is a way to mix that with flo's suggestion above 15:13:21 <flo> I hope the tooltip won't appear above the contact while dragging 15:13:55 <aleth> That would defeat the purpose :-/ 15:14:19 <Mic|web> No tooltips during dragging, as it seems :) 15:14:21 <aleth> But I don't think tooltips appear while you are dragging? 15:15:24 <flo> "Instantbird can deal with several different ways to contact people. To let it know that another contact is the same person, just drag that contact and drop it here." 15:15:33 <flo> too wordy :-/ 15:16:00 <flo> aleth: I remember adding some workaround to prevent them from appearing 15:16:25 <aleth> It's actually nicely implemented, with the current target highlighted :) 15:19:36 <Mic|web> "Create a single contact for a person by dragging and dropping [his/her] other contacts here." :S 15:19:40 <aleth> "If you have another contact for the same person on a different account, you can combine it with this one by dragging and dropping it here" 15:20:44 <aleth> This kind of thing is really tricky :-/ 15:20:56 <flo> + they can be on the same account :-P 15:21:09 <aleth> True. 15:21:15 <aleth> "If you have another contact for the same person, you can combine it with this one by dragging and dropping it here" 15:22:13 <clokep_work> I like flo's suggestion of putting the person's name in there. 15:22:17 <clokep_work> It's less abstract. 15:22:25 <aleth> Yes. 15:23:28 <clokep_work> (As programmers it's quite easy to understand multiple levels of abstraction, not so easy for users...) 15:25:45 <flo> clokep_work: I don't think I can even understand a sentence like "Combine contacts to allow you to manage your contacts' identities across multiple networks." without making some effort. 15:26:23 <flo> Combine = ? Contacts = ? manager = ? identities = ? contacts' identities = ? network = ? multiple networks = ? 15:26:35 <flo> s/manager/manage/ 15:27:23 <aleth> And nobody wants to have to manage contacts ;) 15:27:29 <clokep_work> Yes. :( 15:28:05 <flo> right, doing something to allow me to do more work sounds like I would rather take some vacations ;) 15:29:25 <aleth> Dump all your other contacts for <name> here to get rid of the clutter :P 15:33:40 * aleth thinks he should do a blog post for tab complete when the feature reaches a point where it doesn't change every day 15:34:06 * clokep_work is going to hold aleth to that. 15:41:09 --> sander85 has joined #instantbird 15:44:54 <Gizmokid2005> tab completion is amazing 15:46:12 <Gizmokid2005> I find myself trying to tab complete more and more things on a regular basis, what with using IRC and linux cli all the time 15:46:36 <aleth> Glad you like it! It's based on a lot of feedback... 15:47:10 <-- sander85 has quit (Client exited) 15:47:18 --> sander85 has joined #instantbird 15:51:26 <clokep_work> "It's based on a lot of feedback..." is aleth's code for "Geez, you guys complain a lot." ;) 15:51:50 <flo> heh :) 15:52:28 <Gizmokid2005> haha 15:52:35 <Gizmokid2005> I don't even use instantbird, but hearing tab complete makes me happy :D 15:52:53 <Gizmokid2005> now if only there was a way to keep my chat logs in sync between pidgin and instantbird, I'd probably switch in a heartbeat...at least to try it full time :D 15:53:03 <flo> Gizmokid2005: you should switch to an instantbird nightly immediately (especially for IRC) to see how awesome aleth made it ;) 15:53:22 <Gizmokid2005> well, like I said, let me sync my logs and I will :D 15:53:45 <flo> were you logging in plain text or HTML in Pidgin? 15:53:50 <Gizmokid2005> html 15:54:01 <flo> that sucks :( 15:54:09 <Gizmokid2005> yeah, I had a feeling that would be a sticking point 15:54:15 <Gizmokid2005> otherwise they're pretty much compatible aren't they? 15:54:56 <flo> we used to log in a plain text format that was the same as Pidgin's 15:55:21 <flo> but Pidgin's HTML format is crap (even worse than the plain text format) 15:55:43 <flo> it's not logging what it received, but what it has displayed, which isn't really interesting 15:56:07 <clokep_work> Wait...so...if you have a different message theme it'll log crazy things? 15:56:54 <flo> clokep_work: except it doesn't support message themes (yet) 15:57:08 <flo> well, the current trunk does 15:57:18 <flo> but I think it still logs the HTML the old HTML view would have generated 15:57:35 <Gizmokid2005> I"m not sure how it does, I just know it does what I told it to..lol 15:57:46 <flo> you told it to do crap? 15:57:55 <clokep_work> Ah, OK. So that's not as bad as I initially thought. 15:58:03 <clokep_work> You might be able to recover some information from it still? 15:58:17 <Gizmokid2005> well, I told it to log with formatting...so it did...lol 15:58:18 <flo> yeah, we will be able to import that at some point 15:58:29 <flo> well, some of that 15:58:46 <flo> I don't think it does a better job than the plain/text format at not losing information 15:59:13 <Gizmokid2005> well yeah...reading info out of it is damn near impossible...but 15:59:20 <Gizmokid2005> I might switch to plaintext just to do it. 15:59:32 <Gizmokid2005> really that's all i'm highly concerned with losing when it comes to changing clients 16:00:39 <flo> I can totally understand that 16:01:03 <flo> keeping correct logs is more or less the reason why I tend to always use the same machine for IMing 16:01:35 <-- meh has quit (Ping timeout) 16:01:37 <Gizmokid2005> that's why I use PidginPortable 16:01:41 <Gizmokid2005> is so my logs are always there 16:02:02 <flo> you mean you rely on a flash drive not breaking to keep your logs? 16:02:05 <Gizmokid2005> I've got logs dating back to like mid-2008 or earlier. 16:02:10 <Gizmokid2005> nope. 16:02:17 <Gizmokid2005> I rely on an external hard drive that I backup nightly. 16:02:21 <Gizmokid2005> because I've killed 3 flash drives. 16:02:34 <flo> heh, you could have used Instantbird from the start then :-P 16:02:46 <flo> I think I have my logs back to around 2003 16:02:55 <Gizmokid2005> well now instantbird is actually in PA.c format too! :D 16:03:20 <flo> although they are now spread across several hard drives, and 4 different file formats. 16:03:59 <Gizmokid2005> yeah, I like centralized info :) 16:04:07 <clokep_work> I forget if I trashed my Pidgin logs when I switched or if I kept 'em. If so I have back to like 2005... if not like 2008 or 09. 16:04:24 <Gizmokid2005> I had 2 different flash drives corrupt on me, one brand twice, hence why I went to an external hard drive 16:04:31 <Gizmokid2005> it's more of a hassle, but absolutely worth it. 16:05:15 <Gizmokid2005> since I run Thunderbird, Firefox, Pidgin, Notepad++, KVIrc, Skype, PuTTY, VLC, SpeedCrunch, Filezilla, and Songbird from it regularly...at the same time. 16:06:23 <flo> I also carry around a hard drive. Its case is called "MacBook" though. ;) 16:07:46 <clokep_work> So...I didn't have a flash drive till like a yera and a half ago. ;) 16:07:51 <Gizmokid2005> well see, I spend way more time on my desktop at home, and I don't think my company would be thrilled if I carried around my own laptop 16:08:05 <Gizmokid2005> not that I would...since my laptop is a lower-end MBP 16:08:12 <Gizmokid2005> but...lunch is begging my name, so...bb in ~1 hour 16:14:36 * clokep_work just spent 45 minutes tracking down a bug caused by using < instead of <=. :( 16:15:15 <flo> I spent several hours tracking a focus bug ;) 16:15:24 <clokep_work> Did you find it at least? :) 16:15:29 <flo> I finally just added an event.preventDefault() call and it disappeared 16:18:15 <clokep_work> That sounds hacky... 16:18:42 <flo> no, the problem is that I was correctly focusing what I needed, but doing that from a mousedown event 16:18:57 <flo> and the focus was changed by something happening later (on mouseup maybe?) 16:20:54 --> meh has joined #instantbird 16:23:04 * jwir3|away is now known as jwir3 16:24:17 <Mic|web> After most likely years already I updated "Join Chat" again ... it's now showing the new tab button in the tab bar. Would be cool if I could show the contents of the join chat dialog in a panel attached to from it. 16:24:39 <flo> is it difficult to do? 16:28:11 <Mic|web> I don't know yet. 16:29:47 <clokep_work> Awesome Mic|web! :) 16:29:56 <clokep_work> One of us should just sit down and make that damn new convo page 16:32:12 <Mic|web> What's awesome? That I managed to set "display: block !important" on the classes for the new-tab button? :P 16:33:47 <flo> Mic|web: why wouldn't that be awesome? :) 16:36:13 <-- Tomek has quit (Client exited) 16:38:50 <flo> these 3 lines of code sound like something we should copy for your log viewer: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mail/base/content/mailWindowOverlay.js#2921 16:38:58 <flo> anybody interested in doing a trivial patch? ;) 16:39:06 <flo> I think we already have a bug on file for that 16:43:41 --> Mook_as has joined #instantbird 16:44:31 <-- jc has quit (Quit: jc) 16:44:48 <-- jb has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1) 16:47:21 <flo> nobody has ever filed a bug requesting that we add support for printing a conversation? 16:47:30 <flo> it seems dead trees are deprecated :) 16:48:35 <clokep_work> There's a bug about exporting I think? 16:49:03 <flo> yes 16:49:33 <flo> but it shouldn't be too difficult to add support for Command+P to open the print dialog for the current <browser> (both in the conv windows and in the log viewer) 16:49:43 <flo> it just seems nobody ever wanted that :) 16:50:54 <Mook_as> I'd want to disable that ;) 16:50:59 * Mook_as doesn't even have a printer at home 16:51:14 <flo> not having a printer sounds like a sure way to disable the feature ;) 16:51:28 <clokep_work> I don't have a printer either actually. :) 16:52:28 <Mook_as> oh, I assumed you have one _somewhere_ at work 16:52:51 --> Tomek has joined #instantbird 16:52:55 <flo> there are at least 7 printers at my parents' 16:53:28 <flo> probably no more than 2 of them are sometimes useds 16:53:32 <flo> *used 16:54:02 <clokep_work> How many work? ;) 16:54:11 <Mook_as> how many are impact printers? :D 16:54:29 * bear is now known as bear-afk 16:54:29 <flo> Mook_as: we still have one in the attic, but I haven't counted it 16:55:16 <Mic|web> OK, the panel is still misplaced and doesn't close but I can load the dialog into an iframe inside of it and it works to join a chat from there. 16:55:31 <flo> clokep_work: I think they would all work with new ink and some paper 16:57:00 <clokep_work> Nice. :) 16:59:11 <Mic|web> bbl 16:59:12 <-- Mic|web has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 17:18:49 <-- Tonnes has quit (Connection reset by peer) 17:19:18 --> gpsychosis has joined #instantbird 17:20:04 --> Tonnes has joined #instantbird 17:21:14 <flo> clokep_work: thanks! 17:23:04 <meh> does instantbird support avatars? 17:23:33 <Mook_as> it supports little pictures for people 17:23:54 <flo> meh: does your terminal support them? :-P 17:24:12 <meh> flo, sure, libcaca ;) 17:26:15 --> Mic|web has joined #instantbird 17:34:19 <-- mmkmou has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 17:35:23 <-- SM0TVI has quit (Ping timeout) 17:36:36 <flo> Good evening 17:36:38 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 17:36:40 --> SM0TVI has joined #instantbird 17:46:38 <-- sonny has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 17:47:21 --> igorko has joined #instantbird 17:59:45 --> Even1 has joined #instantbird 18:39:47 <aleth> How's this look? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/33431 18:40:06 <aleth> Kept it broad-brush and assuming not much will change... 18:42:56 <meh> that is some complex completion 18:43:16 <gpsychosis> That's how I'd expect it to work, though 18:43:23 <gpsychosis> and I'm a simpleton 18:43:24 <aleth> well, hopefully it's not complex to /use/ 18:44:14 <Mook_as> that seems useful as developer documentation ;) 18:45:13 <aleth> Ideally you don't need to read a blog post to use it ;) 18:46:43 <clokep_work> aleth: I made some changes (don't feel you need to take them, I just tried to make you sound more excited :P) http://pastebin.instantbird.com/33432 18:47:31 <aleth> I'm a bit worried that it's already too detailed/long. It's not meant to look complicated... 18:47:42 <clokep_work> aleth: Screenshots! 18:47:56 <aleth> clokep_work: thanks! 18:48:12 <aleth> I doubt screenshots of a textbox are compelling though... 18:48:51 * bear-afk is now known as bear 18:49:07 <Mic|web> A video maybe? ;) 18:49:07 <aleth> I'll have to think about that 18:49:14 <aleth> umm... 18:50:27 <clokep_work> aleth: You show a before and after screenshots, not the full window, just snippets. 18:50:39 <clokep_work> P.S. I'd really like show nick to highlight the nicks in the input box too. :) 18:51:00 <aleth> Did you see Mic's latest bug filing? 18:51:12 <clokep_work> Probably, he files so many though.... 18:51:13 <clokep_work> What was it? 18:51:17 <clokep_work> bug 1404? 18:51:19 <aleth> Not spell-checking nicks 18:51:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1404 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add "Your account is reconnected" system message 18:51:29 <clokep_work> Ah...yes, well that too. :) 18:51:56 <clokep_work> (Ideally they should be added to the list of corrections too! :)) 18:52:11 <aleth> I suspect that's the same thing ;) 18:53:05 <aleth> No idea how hard it is to add features to the inputbox... 18:54:05 <clokep_work> Essentially impossible AFAIK. 18:54:21 <clokep_work> If we replace it with an editor element things like that become a lot more reasonable. 18:54:29 <Mook_as> if you do videos, please make them animated gifs or something :) 18:54:38 <clokep_work> (Well the spellcheck stuff shold be doable.) 18:55:03 <aleth> Mook_as: More than an animated gif of some sort is definitely not going to happen ;) 18:58:58 <clokep_work> An animated gif could work well though...I'll show you later what I meant though... 18:59:34 <Mic|web> Ah, cool :) 19:00:00 <aleth> Definitely not going to stick with the current text... it's far too programmerish 19:00:02 <Mic|web> I hacked something together that fetches the last ten messages from the logs and shows them in the conversation :) 19:00:11 <aleth> yay :) 19:00:21 <aleth> bug 958 is getting fixed ;) 19:00:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows 19:00:26 <-- NmN has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1) 19:01:14 <Mic|web> I wish the logger would support something like "get last N messages from the logs, even if they were in different sessions" 19:01:32 <aleth> Do you have to recurse on the files? 19:03:29 <Mic|web> I don't have to access any files myself, the logger does all that. 19:03:32 <clokep_work> aleth: I think it's good to show a bit about the algorithm in there and what went into it (techie people like to read that), maybe if you could do it as asides almost...? 19:04:04 <aleth> clokep_work: So the intended audience for feature posts is mainly planetmozilla? 19:04:22 <aleth> Does your wordpress support html5 slideshows? 19:04:24 <clokep_work> aleth: It's people who read our blog, so people who read Planet Mozilla + people who care about the software enough to follow our blog. 19:04:28 <Mic|web> But I'm reading all logs to sort them by time and then start going through them to count messages. It's not optimal atm but it seems to work OK so far 19:04:57 <clokep_work> So...generally people who are techie-ish, but of course you want to make it readable as well. 19:05:03 <aleth> Sounds great Mic|web :) It'll be good to finally have that feature 19:05:03 <clokep_work> I think flo did a great job with the Time Bubbles post. 19:05:28 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: Going home.) 19:10:49 <aleth> Something is wrong with the font sizes of the titles in the IB blog CSS :-/ 19:11:18 <aleth> They are tiny 19:43:25 <Mic|web> bye 19:43:50 <-- Mic|web has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client) 19:57:42 --> clokep has joined #instantbird 19:57:42 * ChanServ sets mode +o clokep 19:59:36 <clokep> aleth: Yes, the blog isn't perfect. :( 20:02:43 --> qheaden has joined #instantbird 20:03:02 <qheaden> clokep: Hey there. Did you ever get my reply email? 20:03:34 <clokep> qheaden: Yes, we did. 20:04:31 <qheaden> Great! 20:04:49 <qheaden> Like I said in the email, I'm busy with other things right now, but I will be back to work on that console. 20:06:14 <clokep> qheaden: Great, can't wait for you to start on it. :) I ran into an issue the otherday where I needed it. :P 20:06:41 <qheaden> Yeah, it really is important. :) 20:10:59 <-- igorko has quit (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) 20:21:07 * bear is now known as bear-afk 20:41:33 --> sonny has joined #instantbird 20:44:32 <clokep> aleth: In the message theme you made...do you use a jar in it or not? 20:45:00 <aleth> Which message theme? 20:45:12 <clokep> Bubbles Light or something? 20:45:21 <aleth> Hmm, let me check 20:45:35 * clokep is confused why his chrome.manifest doesn't work. 20:45:47 <aleth> Yes 20:46:17 <aleth> However when I bugfixed the Minimal2 one, I think I ditched the jar 20:46:29 <aleth> Maybe look at that one? 20:46:34 <clokep> Error: uncaught exception: Incoming/Content.html is a required file :-S 20:46:40 <clokep> K, thanks. 20:52:09 <-- qheaden has quit (Ping timeout) 20:56:19 <clokep> Bah I have no idea why this isn't working. :( 20:56:26 * clokep is trying to update the rules.mk file from the add-ons repo. 20:57:44 <-- sonny has quit (Ping timeout) 20:58:40 <-- gpsychosis has quit (Ping timeout) 21:04:31 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 21:08:35 <aleth> Did the skin line from that message style not work for you? 21:25:36 <clokep> Nah I was just an idiot. 21:25:40 <clokep> I needed an extra * in the makefile. 21:25:44 <clokep> Anyway. I haeve to go. Ciao 21:25:47 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 21:35:58 --> gpsychosis has joined #instantbird 21:38:12 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 21:51:52 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout) 21:57:11 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 22:03:57 --> flo has joined #instantbird 22:03:57 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 22:04:33 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout) 22:05:22 <flo> aleth: thanks for writing this! :-) 22:06:22 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 22:06:22 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 22:06:45 <flo> I won't agree with Mook_as: it doesn't look like developer documentation. I would rather say, user documentation. 22:07:08 <Mook_as> yeah, I meant that more as "could live near the algorithm as a reminder" 22:07:20 <Mook_as> but I suspect there's no "the algorithm" to live next to... 22:07:33 <aleth> Thanks- it's only a draft so far... 22:08:38 <aleth> There are a bunch of details missing on purpose (they should "just work" ;) 22:09:25 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 22:09:32 <flo> as clokep said though, I'm afraid it doesn't sound very exciting 22:09:38 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 22:09:50 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 22:09:51 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 22:09:53 <-- Mic has quit (Connection reset by peer) 22:10:02 <aleth> Yep 22:10:08 --> Mic has joined #instantbird 22:10:08 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 22:10:14 <flo> there a certain category of users who love to rtfm, but I suspect lots of our users prefer to tl;dr 22:10:43 <aleth> tl;dr: tab completion now marginally less annoying :D 22:11:12 <aleth> In a way, if you need the post, the feature has failed... 22:11:23 <flo> apparently clokep liked the Time bubbles post. I think the main difference is that the time bubble post was telling users a story: it wasn't explaining how the feature is, but why it is like this 22:11:40 <aleth> Yes, that's a really nice post 22:11:49 <aleth> More about the design decisions 22:11:54 <flo> the goal of the post was more to show the way we think/design than the way it can be used 22:12:48 <aleth> Ultimately I would like the tab complete post to just raise awareness a little, without anyone having to read much 22:14:10 <aleth> I'll have to think about it some more 22:14:20 --> EionRobb has joined #instantbird 22:14:22 <flo> I would say, either tell people a story (what we have done/why) or explain why the tab completion of all other clients sucks 22:14:47 <aleth> other clients have tab completion? :P 22:14:51 <flo> but definitely keep the text you pastebined somewhere (on the wiki maybe?) 22:15:15 <flo> aleth: yes. You notice it because lots of people frequently ping the wrong nick ;). 22:15:41 <flo> a tab completion that works shouldn't be noticeable by other people, it should just save *you* time 22:16:26 <Mook_as> ideally, it shouldn't be noticeable by you either ;) 22:17:17 <aleth> When people notice, they file a bug ;) 22:18:15 <flo> Mook_as: I'm not sure about that 22:18:53 <flo> Mook_as: is a well designed feature a feature that you never notice any more, or a feature that you enjoy using and that makes you happy when you see it working? 22:19:13 <Mook_as> ah, for me I wouldn't think of nick completion as one that makes me happy 22:19:27 <Mook_as> since it's (to the user) not a complicated thing 22:19:36 <Mook_as> (the actual code is complicated of course :p ) 22:20:41 <aleth> Yes, in a way the design decisions become invisible, but are there... e.g. completion in the style of a code editor would be wrong 22:20:51 <flo> Mook_as: well, a feature makes me happy when it significantly exceed what I expected it would do, but in a good way (ie it's not doing more crap that I'll have to undo by hand). So thinks like replacing the ":" between 2 nicks with a coma would qualify for what I call enjoyable 22:21:11 <Mook_as> I guess I don't enjoy software as much as you do :) 22:21:17 <flo> *things 22:21:35 <flo> Mook_as: it's not software that I enjoy, but good design. 22:21:49 <flo> the same thing would also apply for physical objects 22:21:57 <aleth> flo++ 22:22:30 <Mic> Isn't "being excited about tab complete" and "enjoy using this feature" a bit exaggerated, btw? ;) 22:23:16 <aleth> Mic: I didn't write anything like that... 22:24:04 <aleth> Btw you could turn it around and say bad design causes frustration. Is it real frustration? maybe not, but irritating in a small way... 22:24:06 <flo> aleth: I did 22:26:36 <Mook_as> bad design for me can definitely cause something resembling frustration 22:26:46 <Mook_as> (but I'd probably stop using whatever-it-was soon) 22:27:04 <aleth> In the same way good design is pleasing 22:30:11 <Mook_as> right, it's not quite that I don't understand the concept, I just... don't see it ever applying to me, I think. 22:31:07 <-- EionRobb has quit (Quit: Leaving.) 22:32:04 <flo> Mook_as: I think you need to have felt the frustration for that specific problem before for a really enjoyable effect ;) 22:32:31 <Mook_as> possibly; though I think long term I'd stop noticing anyway, I expect things to Work ;) 22:32:33 --> chrisccoulson has joined #instantbird 22:32:48 <aleth> I also think that features that are like 95% done are not 5% annoying but 50% annoying, at least. 22:33:32 <aleth> For some reason little nits in otherwise good solutions can have disparate impact (maybe because if it was just bad you wouldn't be using it anyway) 22:33:48 <flo> Mook_as: long term, you become addicted to good design, no longer notice it, but are extremely frustrated when going back to something not as well designed 22:33:54 <Mook_as> quote from a different channel yesterday: 22:33:56 <Mook_as> The first 90% of the code accounts for the first 90% of the development time. The remaining 10% of the code accounts for the other 90% of the development time. --Tom Cargill 22:34:16 <Mook_as> flo: pretty much that, yeah :) 22:35:11 <aleth> heh 22:38:30 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 22:53:59 <flo> Good night 22:55:02 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout) 23:16:29 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird 23:21:25 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com) 23:47:56 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout)