#instantbird log on 04 26 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:08:29 <instant-buildbot> build #245 of linux-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-onCommit/builds/245
00:12:49 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1182 to FIXED.
00:12:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1182 nor, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, "Reference to undefined property" JS warnings
00:13:20 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1389 to FIXED.
00:13:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1389 min, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Warning: reference to undefined property this._lastScrollHeight
00:14:00 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1394 to FIXED.
00:14:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1394 enh, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, [Tab Complete] Does not cycle through inactive nicks
00:14:31 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1399 to FIXED.
00:14:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1399 min, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, [Tab complete] Don't add trailing space to completions in the middle of the line
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00:45:15 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1198 on bug 1261.
00:45:17 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1261 enh, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, "Paper Sheets": use media queries for conditional CSS instead of JS
00:50:28 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird.org for attachment 1403 on bug 1107.
00:50:32 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1107 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Contact list section header styling for Linux
00:58:43 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1405 on bug 1366.
00:58:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick
01:23:21 <gpsychosis> Can I ask a JavaScript question here?
01:23:33 <clokep> Of course! What's up?
01:23:47 <gpsychosis> I was wondering why 1 <= x <= 10 doesn't work in JS
01:23:54 <gpsychosis> and what i can do about it
01:24:10 <gpsychosis> instead of x >= 1 || x <= 10
01:25:24 <clokep> 'Uhhh...what language does that work in?
01:25:28 <clokep> I only know of like one or two.
01:25:34 <clokep> Almost every language you need to split it up.
01:25:39 <gpsychosis> C++, I think?
01:25:44 <clokep> (I prefer 1 <= x && x <= 10)
01:25:48 <clokep> No, C++ you have to separate it.
01:25:54 <gpsychosis> right, it's &&
01:26:09 <gpsychosis> Okay, so I'll just have to take it
01:26:09 * clokep is playing Trials Evolution and might be slow to respond...
01:26:17 <gpsychosis> How is it?
01:26:27 <clokep> Yeah, I wish more languages would support that short hand, but alas.
01:26:34 <clokep> It's good. easier than the first one (which is good for me. :-D)
01:26:41 <clokep> Multiplayer is a ton of fun.
01:26:44 <gpsychosis> Nice. I thought I read "Tribes" at first
01:26:51 <gpsychosis> it's the motorcycle one, right?
01:27:21 <gpsychosis> Well, I'm going to get back to learnin' my JavaScripts.
01:27:41 <clokep> Yes. :)
01:27:48 <clokep> Sure thing, let me know if you have questions.
01:27:57 <gpsychosis> thanks, glad I can ask here.
01:32:01 <clokep> Of course. :) Not everything can be self taught!
01:33:43 <clokep> (Or asking a question might give you an answer in five minutes instead of hours scouring the internet.)
01:34:00 <instant-buildbot> build #234 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/234
01:35:29 <gpsychosis> Yeah, the second one.
01:35:30 <gpsychosis> Hahah
01:36:46 <gpsychosis> By the way, if I wrote .js files in a text editor on windows, does the os have native commandline support to run them? or do I have to install something / prepare my PATH parameter / all of the above?
01:37:02 <gpsychosis> So far I'm using an integrated web editor/console course environment
01:37:12 <gpsychosis> maybe I need to install an IDE (yeccch)
01:37:18 <clokep> No OSes have native support for it AFAIK.
01:37:24 <clokep> I run my code inside of Komodo usually.
01:37:31 <clokep> (Which is the editor I use anyway...)
01:37:42 <gpsychosis> So I guess I should get an IDE
01:37:46 <clokep> There are command line interpreters though, I can't say I know them off the top of my head. :(
01:37:54 <gpsychosis> well, now that I know they exist
01:38:08 <gpsychosis> I can just DuckDuckGo "command line javascript interpreter windows"
01:38:08 <clokep> (Mozilla has one...but Idk if they distribute it separately or if you need to compile it from source? It gets build as part of Firefox, Instantbird, etc.)
01:38:27 <gpsychosis> and maybe add Mozilla to my query
01:39:00 <clokep> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Introduction_to_the_JavaScript_shell apparently
01:39:11 <gpsychosis> woot
01:39:25 <clokep> Ah, they actually distribute it now. :)
01:39:40 <clokep> Ah, GLUEScript is the other one I've heard of...
01:39:55 <clokep> Right, you could also use the Scratchpad build into Firefox.
01:40:29 <gpsychosis> Oh, that's handy
01:41:39 <instant-buildbot> build #213 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/213
01:41:50 <gpsychosis> This is pretty cool.
01:41:59 <clokep> :)
01:42:08 <clokep> I should install that so I can actually have a scripting language haha.
01:42:21 <gpsychosis> Which, SpiderMonkey?
01:42:23 <gpsychosis> Or Firefox?
01:42:31 <clokep> SpiderMonkey. :P
01:42:35 <clokep> I run nightly builds of Firefox.
01:43:07 <gpsychosis> You would!
01:43:43 <clokep> And Thunderbird. ;) (And Komodo, and Instantbird...I think that's it...)
01:47:11 <gpsychosis> Komodo's quite an investment.
01:49:24 <gpsychosis> Komodo Edit seems like something I should try though
01:49:29 <gpsychosis> Right now I'm using the very austere Notepad2
01:51:38 <clokep> I use Komodo Edit. ;)
01:52:40 <clokep> Yeah Notepad2 is OK. Notepad++ is pretty good.
01:59:20 * clokep mumbles about people telling him to use vim or emacs...
02:06:55 <gpsychosis> Hahah
02:07:04 <gpsychosis> Yeah, vim and emacs are like... I don't know.
02:07:09 <gpsychosis> It's just way too hardcore
02:07:17 <gpsychosis> vertical learning curve
02:07:25 <gpsychosis> for people who eat sleep breathe dream text
02:17:55 <instant-buildbot> build #567 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed shell]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/567
02:21:52 <clokep> Failure? Hmmm....
02:22:53 <gpsychosis> mysteeeerious~
02:23:41 <clokep> Clean failed, which is strange.
02:24:42 <gpsychosis> "And it would've succeeded, too, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!"
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03:28:04 <instant-buildbot> build #476 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/476
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05:46:17 <instant-buildbot> build #464 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed shell_3]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/464
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09:35:54 <Mic> Hello
09:36:18 <flo> Hello
09:36:37 <flo> we are having issues on the server, most services are down, and we know it
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10:01:43 <flo> things are back to normal (I think)
10:10:05 <Mic> :)
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10:20:55 <flo> hmm, and I had to restart instantbird to reconnect my gtalk account that got disconnected for some reason. What I don't understand is why I could connect my other gtalk account without problem (-> the problem here doesn't seem to be opening the socket, so it's not the same bug that I was complaining about yesterday)
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10:25:24 <clokep> :( There's something a bit strange with reconnecting I agree.
10:25:40 <clokep> And I still wonder whether the AIM issues (which I continue to have btw) are from that proxies change.
10:25:53 <flo> what AIM issue?
10:26:01 <flo> not being able to send messages?
10:26:34 <clokep> Yes.
10:26:52 <flo> that sucks :(
10:27:22 <flo> especially as it's frequent but not reproducible :(
10:29:04 <clokep> Yeah I have no way to reproduce but I think it happens always, after being connected for a bit.
10:29:54 <flo> so you think it could be failing to establish a new connection?
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10:32:01 <clokep> THat's possible.
10:32:18 <flo> that would be nice, as it would be the same fix as for the other issues :)
10:32:31 <clokep> It does say connected though always. ;) And I've never noticed a dropped connection in the middle (I'd get a system message saying I was disconnected, right?)
10:32:48 <clokep> SOmeone remind me later to write a blog post about GSoC? :)
10:32:48 <flo> no, I meant a socket connection, not an account connection
10:32:57 <flo> some accounts need several sockets
10:34:12 <clokep> Ah, OK.
10:41:35 <flo> hmm, apparently the socket limit tends to be 250 or more (1000 in most cases), so reaching it may not be that frequent
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11:03:51 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm denied review for attachment 1405 on bug 1366.
11:03:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick
11:04:23 <meh> stupid question: does instantbird support file transfers?
11:05:23 <aleth> meh: not yet, because it's hard to find a solution that always works across protocols, but there are plans ;)
11:05:38 <meh> aleth, ok, thanks
11:05:46 <meh> at least i don't have to implement it :P
11:05:59 <meh> still didn't add support for filetransfers to torchat
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11:36:15 <clokep_work> meh: You might be the first happy person that we don't support file transfer. ;)
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11:50:45 <meh> clokep_work, lol
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12:11:25 <clokep_work> That mean you're having success with creating a protocol though?
12:11:59 <meh> clokep_work, not yet, i gotta implement file transfer in my daemon first, and then groupchats, and then i'll go with instantbird
12:12:15 <clokep_work> Ah, it'll require a daemon?
12:12:26 <meh> yep
12:12:43 <meh> it's kind of hard to make it work
12:13:07 <meh> you need a tor instance with a hidden service configured, socks proxy support and a server listening on a certain port
12:13:38 <meh> you need external stuff running anyway, so i wrote my implementation in ruby as a library and implemented a daemon that makes it easy to deal with torchat
12:15:01 <clokep_work> Hm...if you say so.
12:22:03 <aleth> Isn't there ruby XPCOM? You might be able to do without the daemon...
12:22:22 <clokep_work> aleth: I think it's unmaintained.
12:23:05 <clokep_work> http://rbxpcom.mozdev.org/
12:23:05 <meh> aleth, even if there was i don't think it would go really well, the library uses eventmachine
12:23:11 <meh> i don't know how well it would work
12:23:26 <aleth> hmm yeah
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12:24:44 <flo> is it common to have the required dependencies for running something in ruby installed on non-Linux environments?
12:25:32 <meh> flo, can you rephrase please? i don't understand the question
12:27:18 <flo> meh: do you expect users to have ruby installed already?
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12:27:42 <meh> flo, well, if they don't they will have to install it
12:28:17 <flo> or they will just send their messages through Facebook Chat instead, where they'll be logged forever ;)
12:28:24 <meh> that too :)
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12:35:50 <clokep_work> Pastebin is dying when I try to send something to it. :(
12:36:01 <clokep_work> Maybe not everything is back up on the servers, flo?
12:36:57 <flo> right, mysql doesn't seem happy with the pastebin database
12:38:45 <clokep_work> Sounds like a good enough reason to blow it away and start fresh? ;)
12:38:58 <flo> why would you do that?
12:39:21 <clokep_work> So much spam. :(
12:39:27 <clokep_work> Hopefully they don't click "keep forever" though.
12:39:53 <flo> last time I checked, they were all kept for a month
12:40:32 <flo> I think a good solution for the spam would be to remove the left column ;)
12:40:39 <aleth> Maybe if pastebin wasn't in the url? Or how do spammers find the site?
12:40:48 <clokep_work> Anyway, what I wanted to pastebin: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1598935 opinions?
12:40:54 <clokep_work> Should I ask him for a little blurb?
12:41:49 <flo> fixed
12:41:57 <clokep_work> Thanks. :)
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12:43:15 <flo> clokep_work: "Will has been in contact with us in #instantbird during the community bonding period" why 'has been'? why not 'is'?
12:43:15 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from benediktp@ymail.com  for attachment 1406 on bug 1380.
12:43:17 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1380 min, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Unread ruler confusing when coming back to conversation with no new messages
12:45:10 <aleth> Has anyone shown Will the wiki page logiclord made? It might be useful to him, I don't know
12:45:36 <flo> aleth: please do! :)
12:45:57 <aleth> I was about to ping him but he is not here...
12:47:07 <aleth> clokep_work: 'Will can now be found on #instantbird from time to time' or something like that?
12:49:05 <clokep_work> Sure.
12:49:52 <clokep_work> I think that's kind of implied in that he's in #instantbird?
12:50:05 <clokep_work> flo: I made it present tense.
12:50:21 <flo> give his irc nick?
12:55:32 <clokep_work> OK.
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12:56:43 <clokep_work> Updated: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1598944
12:58:38 <flo> ok (assuming you put links in the post before posting it :))
13:00:47 <clokep_work> Yes, they're there. :P
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13:09:57 <instantbot> Just appeared in Blog@instantbird.org - http://blog.instantbird.org :
13:09:58 <instantbot> http://blog.instantbird.org/2012/04/google-summer-of-code-2012/ - Google Summer of Code 2012
13:38:49 <Gizmokid2005> flo: W00 @ current blog post! :D
13:39:20 <clokep_work> And we even managed a blog post two weeks in a row. ;)
13:40:25 <Gizmokid2005> I know!
13:40:29 <flo> Gizmokid2005: the author is clokep_work  ;)
13:40:37 <Gizmokid2005> I keep thinking I should try to migrate to Instantbird from PIdgin
13:40:45 <Gizmokid2005> Well, then my 'grats go to clokep_work this time!
13:40:59 <flo> maybe just do it instead of trying? :-D
13:41:06 <Gizmokid2005> haha
13:41:14 <Gizmokid2005> well...there's the whole converting all 12 of my accounts
13:41:15 <Gizmokid2005> then logs
13:41:16 <Gizmokid2005> etc
13:41:22 <flo> ah
13:41:24 <Gizmokid2005> and then reconfiguring a client the way I like it :)
13:41:28 <flo> then maybe it will be easier at the end of the summer
13:41:37 <Gizmokid2005> it sure sounds like it :)
13:41:55 <Gizmokid2005> Don't get me wrong, I love pidgin...but sometimes I'd just like to try something new
13:42:21 <Gizmokid2005> but, being that you guys use libpurple, Instantbird is plagued with the same problem that pidgin is in MSN :(
13:43:27 <meh> i think you guys should do like bitlbee does
13:43:48 <meh> implement the protocols natively and use libpurple as fallback, unless you're already doing that
13:44:03 <clokep_work> That's a lot of work.
13:44:17 <flo> meh: seems strange for you to say that after we explained to you that protocols can be implemented in JS
13:44:39 <flo> clokep_work: I think meh was wolonteering to do that work ;)
13:44:44 <meh> flo, i meant with js with natively
13:44:50 <meh> lol
13:45:18 <flo> "with js with natively" doesn't make much sense to me
13:45:35 <meh> flo, then i guess i didn't understand what you said
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13:47:11 <clokep_work> flo: I think by "natively" he just means "not calling into libpurple"
13:47:29 <meh> yes, that's what i meant
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13:52:16 <clokep_work> I mean there's a certain benefit when we want to add features to things (especially to take advantage of the platform: i.e. to make XMPP, IRC extensible, potentially taking care of A/V stuff build into Mozilla, etc.)
13:52:28 <clokep_work> But for protocols which there's no "real" benefit that seems like a waste of time to me.
13:52:48 <clokep_work> (Unless you just want a non-GPL version, than that's cool too. :))
13:53:10 <flo> I wonder how difficult it would be to compile libpurple to JS with emascripten
13:54:49 <flo> clokep_work: the real benefit I see to having everything in JS is: not crashing for bugs in prpls
13:55:08 <clokep_work> flo: That's understandable, but I don't think that was meh's point. :)
13:55:56 <meh> my point was that libpurple is evil :P
13:57:44 <flo> O_o
13:57:53 <flo> you wanted to write a libpurple plugin yesterday
13:57:59 <Gizmokid2005> ^^
13:58:01 <Gizmokid2005> ouch
13:58:01 <meh> exactly
13:58:01 <Gizmokid2005> lol
13:58:12 <meh> how else could i say that it's evil? :(
13:58:23 <meh> i looked the demon in the eyes
13:59:03 <flo> meh: and the demon told you to go http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/protocols/oscar/oscar.c#928 ?
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13:59:56 <Gizmokid2005> ...wow flo
14:00:01 <meh> lol
14:00:04 <Gizmokid2005> that's...interesting
14:00:15 <flo> Gizmokid2005: line 866 is also interesting
14:00:19 <Gizmokid2005> #930 is just as interesting
14:00:44 <flo> yeah, same idea, but I was pointing to the declaration of the struct :)
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14:01:08 <flo> and 876 isn't so bad either :)
14:01:11 <Gizmokid2005> right
14:01:18 <Gizmokid2005> like...what
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14:16:21 <clokep_work> Well if someone wants to rewrite a protocol...we're not going to stop them. ;)
14:16:34 <clokep_work> Looks like oscar is a good place to start? :P
14:17:01 <flo> could also start with netsoul :-D
14:17:21 <flo> I would like to have it a JS add-on, so that we can stop shipping it by default :)
14:20:46 <clokep_work> :)
14:20:58 <clokep_work> Would be nice to have some protocols for the addons website too. :P
14:21:11 <flo> Omegle?
14:21:16 <clokep_work> I mean you could package it as an add-on anyway though, I'd think.
14:21:21 <clokep_work> We don't provide it.
14:21:26 <flo> too much effort
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14:43:26 <clokep_work> Yeah, although it requires you to do is make && make && make, upload. :)
14:43:38 <clokep_work> We probably need to ensure some of our extensions are reupdated before 1.2
14:45:13 <flo> uh?
14:45:31 <flo> do you just type "make" to setup a windows build environment?
14:45:45 <flo> last time I tried, it seems way more complicated
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14:45:50 <flo> *seemed
14:46:13 <aleth> clokep_work:  I think there were a bunch that were held back because they rely on features new in 1.2?
14:46:42 <aleth> (held back = kept "experimental")
14:47:15 <clokep_work> flo: Are we tlaking about the same thing? I'm talking about Omegle...
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14:47:35 <clokep_work> aleth: Yes, but they need to be updated for 1.2. Isn't that what I said.
14:47:42 <flo> why would you need 3 make calls for omegle?
14:48:01 <aleth> clokep_work: I was just agreeing.
14:48:05 <clokep_work> I have no idea, I just found that 3 was the max and it's easier to hit up a few times. :)
14:48:16 <flo> clokep_work: but no, I was still talking about netsoul
14:48:42 <flo> "too much effort" was referring to building it on each platform separately inside an already built instantbird, then merging the results and uploading that to AIO
14:52:10 <clokep_work> Ah, yeah. That's a lot of effort, I agree.
14:54:36 <flo> I've done that only once for the facebook chat plugin
14:54:49 <flo> mostly to demonstrate it's *possible* to do
14:55:33 <flo> to really make it practicable to do, we would need to automate most of that so that builds are done on our buildbot builders
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14:58:31 <clokep_work> Yup. Makes sense/
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15:58:13 <clokep_work> myk: FYI I started working on the bug where you don't get notified of an offline nick: bug 1366, hopefully finish it off this week.
15:58:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1366 maj, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Inform the user when attempting to send a message to an offline nick
15:59:06 <myk> clokep_work: awesome!
15:59:15 <aleth> clokep_work: Looks pretty much finished to me :)
15:59:46 <clokep_work> aleth: Yeah someone keeps giving me an r- though. ;)
16:00:12 <clokep_work> I pretty much need another 20 minutes with it, yeah.
16:00:14 <myk> that reminds me... there used to be an addon that integrated the Contacts window into the Chats window; did that ever get updated for 2.x?
16:00:59 <clokep_work> It wasn't really ever working AFAIK.
16:01:14 <clokep_work> Was just experiments that flo / Mook were playing with.
16:01:24 <myk> ah
16:01:33 * myk loves uniwindow apps
16:02:38 <clokep_work> The code is around in the add-ons repo I think. I'm not sure if it still works or not...
16:03:24 <clokep_work> http://hg.instantbird.org/addons/file/tip/allinone
16:04:11 <clokep_work> Looks like http://hg.instantbird.org/addons/file/26129a5def76/allinone/content/allinone.js#l42 would need to be updated. Didn't see anything else obvious...
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17:42:41 <aleth> clokep_work: The /version response of Instantbird doesn't include the version number (nor the detailed build info) - is that on purpose?
17:44:15 <flo> aleth: yes
17:44:29 <aleth> OK
17:44:33 <flo> aleth: I would like to have the version number in the default quit message though!
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18:00:18 <clokep_work> flo: Yes, we perceived it as a security issue.
18:00:37 <clokep_work> Oops. That was supposed to be to aleth. :(
18:02:41 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com)
18:02:49 <aleth> Makes sense. The quit message seems a good place to put it.
18:03:09 <aleth> Unless we go with FF-style "version number? what version number?"
18:04:28 <aleth> Looking at add-on stats, there are still people using IB 0.2 :( and about the same number on 1.0
18:08:02 <aleth> I wonder if those are using some Linux distro-supplied build
18:12:47 <clokep_work> Could try to compare it to the # on that platform?
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18:25:33 <Mic> Good evening
18:26:39 <aleth> Hi Mic :)
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18:28:54 <aleth> clokep_work: The stats aren't that finegrained
18:29:30 <clokep_work> You could look at the # of people on Linux and the # of 0.2 users and see if it matches. ;)
18:30:13 <aleth> No, for this add-on the number of Linux users is >10 and 0.2 users are 1 or 2 daily
18:36:36 <clokep_work> Ah. :(
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19:26:06 * clokep_work dislikes people who comment on blogs. ;
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19:27:28 <aleth> let me guess: somebody missing voice calls? ;)
19:27:59 <clokep_work> File transfer.
19:28:08 <aleth> ahh... close :P
19:28:57 <aleth> Well, BigFiles or whatever it is called now might make that more doable quite soon :)
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19:33:32 <clokep_work> Yeah.
19:33:39 <clokep_work> I think I just sometimes take people's comments the wrong way.
19:33:56 * aleth goes to read the comment
19:33:59 <clokep_work> I see so much bugmail fly by of users /demanding/ features that it bothers me a lot.
19:34:05 <clokep_work> But the comment really isn't bad at all. :)
19:34:13 <clokep_work> Just my assumption of how they said it.
19:34:31 <aleth> What is really annoying is if you announce feature X and there are complaints you didn't do feature Y instead
19:34:49 <aleth> But that's life I guess...
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19:36:10 <aleth> Is file transfer on the roadmap for 1.3? That would be a precise answer ;)
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19:38:26 <clokep_work> To echo flo earlier..."we have a roadmap?"
19:38:46 <aleth> Such as it is ;)
19:39:08 <clokep_work> Yeah there's no precise answer, it's mostly when "someone does it"...:-/
19:39:46 <aleth> I really meant "we could put it on the roadmap wiki page for 1.3 and point the commenter to it" ;)
19:40:35 <aleth> Not sure how much of a commitment that implies.
19:41:08 <clokep_work> Yeah...not muhc.
19:41:16 <clokep_work> You should check the history of that page. ;)
19:42:10 <Mic> Isn't it rather frustrating to put something on the roadmap for a certain version and then postpone it to a later version?
19:42:48 <Mook_as> therefore everything should be on the roadmap for version 99, so everything will be done early?
19:43:25 * clokep_work replied.
19:43:34 <clokep_work> Mic: Yes, I think that's more frustrating.
19:43:37 <Mic> I was rather thinking about a list of wanted/maybe wanted features, where we could point people to and say: you see - we want that too?
19:43:50 <aleth> I like how 1.1 is still "a work in progress and can still change significantly" :P
19:44:26 <clokep_work> Mic: That's probably the 1.2-wanted list right now?
19:44:28 <aleth> Or delete the roadmap page if noone is using it anyway?
19:44:31 <clokep_work> aleth: Update the page. :)
19:44:38 <clokep_work> We kind of use it...we update it each release.
19:44:49 <aleth> Oh, it's retrospective?
19:45:02 <aleth> I thought that was called 'release notes' ;)
19:45:38 <clokep_work> We update it for the next release each time we release. :P
19:45:44 <clokep_work> But we don't really keep it "up to date" as stuff happens.
19:45:47 * aleth can't actually edit the roadmap page
19:46:02 <clokep_work> Think of it like a map from the 1600s..."There be monsters"
19:59:59 <instantbot> New Websites - wiki.instantbird.org (MediaWiki) bug 1405 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
20:00:02 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1405 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Replace Wiki main page with Developer page
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20:07:21 <flo> aleth: we usually edit the roadmap when beginning the work on the next version, to summarize what we have agreed is going to be the main focus for that release
20:08:04 <aleth> That makes sense :)
20:08:15 <aleth> And the 1.2 roadmap is actually spot on :D
20:08:37 <flo> yeah, JS-XMPP + JS-IRC
20:08:56 <flo> I didn't know at the time that someone was going to make the participant list and tab completions awesome :)
20:10:47 <aleth> :)
20:11:02 <aleth> Always better to have more in a release than what was promised...
20:12:28 <flo> I would be curious know what each of you think of how Instantbird (the software, the project, and the community) should evolve during the next few weeks, months and maybe up to the end of 2012. What you think needs to be changed/improved/kept. 
20:13:45 * flo would like to define goals clearly, both for himself, and for us as a team
20:14:43 <clokep_work> More bling.
20:16:33 <Mic> clokep_work: clearly, he said. -> how much bling and by when? ;)
20:16:45 <flo> more or less answering with my point of view (but I'm interested in what others think) : I think we should release more frequently (maybe even based on a fixed schedule like Mozilla or Ubuntu) and for that we need to identify and fix the point points related to releasing
20:17:13 <flo> *pain points
20:18:45 <clokep_work> flo: I agree that we should release more frequently (I think we said every 3 Mozilla releases sounds good at one point?)
20:18:51 <clokep_work> Which means we need to automate more I'm guessing.
20:18:55 <flo> what I would identify as pain points currently would be: the server side of the update system (it's a black box that nobody really understands, unfortunately), the interactions with localizers (we don't know what we are going to do in advance, so it's impossible to communicate a clear message + nobody is really responsible for that, I just feel guilty about it)
20:19:29 <flo> AIO that's a scary piece of crap
20:20:17 <flo> our build slaves that aren't as usable as they should be (still stuck with a PPC machine on Mac, the other systems are in VMs that aren't always available, ...)
20:21:25 <flo> I think to release more often we need to be more confident that what we are shipping isn't broken. Asking people to test release candidates has been quite painful in the past (nobody really does it, or when it's done bugs aren't reported, and anyway we have no clear way to know exactly which build has been tested)
20:21:40 <flo> so we really need to invest in unit tests
20:21:43 <clokep_work> Did we even ship an RC for Instantbird 1.1?
20:21:54 <clokep_work> flo: Yes, I was going to suggest we should try to put some effort toward that after 1.2.
20:21:59 <aleth> Nightlies seem very stable most of the time though. Real brokenness is found quite quickly, isn't it?
20:22:00 <flo> clokep_work: I think we did
20:22:01 <clokep_work> I know it's not sexy, but it's really necessary. :-/
20:22:21 <Mic> Didn't we have no new nightlies for a while so people would test what should be released?
20:22:22 <aleth> (not to be construed as an argument against unit tests)
20:22:23 <clokep_work> aleth: Usually, but we've had broken things take weeks to find (some random feature all the devs have turned off.)
20:22:36 <flo> aleth: the last 2 times we had major brokenness, it was caused by broken update files, not broken builds :(
20:22:53 <aleth> Right.
20:23:19 <flo> clokep_work: unit tests are worth anything only if they are actually run.
20:23:29 <flo> we would really need them to be ran for each commit
20:23:36 <aleth> 1.2 is quite close to being done, or am I missing something major?
20:24:02 <flo> speaking of commits, I don't think the time I spend handling the checkin-needed queue is the best possible use of my time
20:24:06 <clokep_work> From a code point, yes. we need to do translations, update the website, release notes, etc. etc.
20:24:32 <flo> so I would really like us to get to a point were several of you can commit and handle the consequences if something goes really wrong
20:25:02 <flo> aleth: 1.2 feels to me like 0.2 about 3 months before it was released
20:25:47 <aleth> How much time do the localizers need?
20:25:48 <clokep_work> flo: What needs to be done to get to that point?
20:25:50 <flo> aleth: that is, all the important stuff is finished, there's a lot of crappy things, including lots of regressions that make us unwilling to ship as is, but isn't motivating + we need a plan for l10n + some server stuff is out of order and needs attention from people who aren't motivated for it
20:26:15 <flo> aleth: they probably need at least 10 days, 2 weeks sounds more reasonable
20:26:18 <aleth> Right.
20:26:31 <flo> but we should warn them in advance of when these 2 weeks will be.
20:28:29 <aleth> Currently 20 bugs on 1.2-wanted, some of which are done, plus some missing XMPP stuff I believe.
20:28:46 <flo> + all the things that annoy us everyday but aren't on that list
20:28:57 <flo> (and are regressions)
20:29:16 <aleth> What are you thinking of in particular? IRC nits?
20:29:37 <clokep_work> If there is something we have to fix before release we should mark it as 1.2-blocking.
20:29:47 <clokep_work> I consider everything else not on that list to be waiting until 1.3.
20:29:48 * Mic hates to think about screenshots.
20:31:35 <flo> aleth: Just 2 examples of things that are irritating: 1. When rejoining an XMPP MUC automatically when reconnecting my account, it's displayed in a different conversation in the list of conversations on hold. 2. All the times I have to restart Instantbird to reconnect some accounts.
20:31:38 <aleth> I still think it would be great if we could release before TB-with-IM gets released. Also because I suspect flo will have increasingly less time as that date nears
20:32:20 <flo> I should definitely file a bug on 1., and I think 2. is already filed, but without anything in the whiteboard, because there's no actionable plan for it anyway
20:32:56 <aleth> Should 2. really be blocking if there is no clue as to what it is?
20:33:13 <flo> no
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20:33:32 <flo> I haven't said it should be blocking. Just that it doesn't make me feel confident about what we have right now
20:33:41 <flo> (but I'm never really confident in what we are shipping)
20:34:12 <flo> I guess the only way to be confident would be to be completely sure that we are going to ship an update soon anyway :)
20:35:19 <aleth> Should we start identifying bugs that can't be done after string freeze?
20:36:24 <flo> I don't think we have even decided if we are following Thunderbird's string freezes to use their localized strings for chat/ or if we are asking our localizers to localize chat/ on their own
20:37:12 <aleth> Also, I was wondering if bug 935 shouldn't be 1.2-wanted, since it seems IB currently appears a bit broken on default gnome. That's a tricky one to fix unless someone tackles it who really knows their CSS
20:37:15 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, em and pt usage in CSS causes size/alignment errors for certain font sizes and DPI settings
20:38:12 <flo> aleth: 1.2-wanted if you want, but I think at this point we aren't really looking at wanted bugs any more
20:38:49 <aleth> wanted/blocking/whatever you want to call it. The question is is it an issue that is important enough
20:39:05 <flo> aleth: I won't spend time on it.
20:39:31 <flo> except for reviewing a patch if one appears
20:40:01 <flo> is bug 1292 really blocking?
20:40:06 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1292 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Freenode SSL reconnection issues
20:40:13 <aleth> Not to me.
20:41:13 <clokep_work> flo: By default we don't use SSL for freenode...
20:41:19 <clokep_work> I still think it's an issue with the servers, but I'm not sure.
20:41:25 <clokep_work> So "no" not really I think.
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20:43:21 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 
20:43:49 <flo> I just looked at the 1.2-wanted list; there are lots of things I would really want + lots of things I would feel guilty for not finishing
20:44:33 <clokep_work> When do we want to shoot for a release?
20:44:39 <clokep_work> May 23?
20:47:02 <flo> when is the mozilla 13 release?
20:47:20 <clokep_work> Should be ~6weeks from two days ago?
20:47:36 <flo> so it should be 2 weeks later?
20:47:53 <flo> and that would give us ~ a month
20:48:03 <clokep_work> June 5th.
20:48:12 <clokep_work> (June 5th is the next Mozilla release.)
20:48:56 <clokep_work> Yeah, ~ 1 month.
20:49:13 <clokep_work> Do you think you'd have some time to figure out the l10n stuff in the next week flo?
20:50:09 <flo> I probably need to spend a part of a week-end on it
20:51:10 <clokep_work> Alright.
20:51:38 <flo> I don't feel a lot of motivation for working on Instantbird during the evenings and week-ends after working on Tb during the day, so I'm probably not going to push the team for the 1.2 release, but I'll at least try to do my best to not block it ;)
20:52:55 <clokep_work> I understand. :) I think it'd be good if we can get that fixed up sooner rather than later.
20:52:58 <flo> I think targeting this Mozilla cycle for the 1.2 release is a good idea
20:53:01 <clokep_work> Give the translators as much time as possible.
20:54:54 <flo> I think one of my goal for the end of 2012 would be that the team can work and release a version of Instantbird even if I'm not doing anything for it
20:56:03 <flo> I would probably feel more motivated for work on Instantbird during my spare time if I spent that time on big features that I've wanted for years, rather than taking care of all the boring details
20:56:03 <clokep_work> Going to give us a big button to press? :-D
20:56:39 <clokep_work> Yeah, I'm definitely not as motivated to write like error handling code for IRC than I am for like adding Ident support or something.
20:56:44 <aleth> Yes, it can't be that much fun if you end up spending all your IB time on reviews and admin
20:58:40 <flo> aleth: all the time I spent on IB today was fighting a server that was down for no apparent reason (it seems the actually reason was in part that it was out of disk space), using my credit card to renew a few domain names for another year (ib.org ib.com ib.fr getib.com), and maybe some not very thoughtful comments on bugzilla.
20:58:44 <clokep_work> Time for me to go. :) Expect another review tonight aleth. ;)
20:58:56 <flo> clokep_work: good evening :)
20:59:05 <clokep_work> Goodnight flo. :)
20:59:07 <aleth> cu ;)
20:59:11 <clokep_work> P.S. wnayes you should check out the blog. ;)
20:59:25 <flo> oh, yes, definitely! :)
21:00:02 <wnayes> clokep_work: I was reading through the logs and read it earlier today :)
21:01:55 <flo> aleth: I think it's quite motivating to implement something, and then to be able to play with it on a nightly with the default profile the next day. :)
21:03:04 <aleth> For sure :) Just doesn't seem to have happened for you very often lately
21:03:06 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: Instantbird π ^ 2 / (π * e))
21:03:27 <aleth> Well, you probably get it on TB ;)
21:03:39 <flo> aleth: yes, the closest to that was playing with some exciting change I reviewed, so I did it more or less by proxy I guess
21:03:44 <flo> aleth: I don't use Tb.
21:05:12 <flo> aleth: the last time I've done it was possibly the "conversations on hold" feature
21:05:32 <aleth> The log viewer maybe?
21:05:44 <flo> hmm, yeah, maybe :)
21:06:00 <flo> well, not really, I don't use it.
21:06:12 <flo> I won't until it can find what I'm looking for (search! we need search!)
21:06:20 <aleth> A sign in itself.
21:06:21 <aleth> Yes :)
21:06:51 <aleth> Currently I use grep to view logs...
21:07:01 <flo> indexed logs and efficient search is probably the only large feature I'm really motivated to implement for 1.2next
21:07:19 <flo> aleth: currently I search on gmail
21:08:14 <flo> bug 1271 is probably the next little detail that I'll be happy to use (even though it won't please Mic)
21:08:18 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1271 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Missing keyboard shortcuts for "Put conversation on hold" and "Show logs"
21:10:38 <Mic> i.e. you really want to use Esc as shortcut for that? :(
21:11:56 <wnayes> Just an update on my progress: Compiling is working fine in both Windows and Linux, and I'm currently exploring the source to get a feel for where everything is and how it all comes together.
21:12:06 <flo> Mic: yes, I really want to be able to get rid of a converstion tab without having to think about it, and without losing any data
21:12:06 * aleth discovers there is a Brainstorming:completion page on the wiki :P
21:12:10 <aleth> a bit late...
21:12:20 <flo> Mic: + I want to stop being upset each time I hit escape by mistake :)
21:12:39 <Mic> The problem with it is that convs-on-hold is a dead end
21:12:44 <flo> wnayes: great news! :)
21:13:09 <flo> aleth: ahah :)
21:13:52 <flo> Mic: convs-on-hold is where I'm used to look for non-urgent new messages when I've some time
21:14:12 <Mic> I don't think it's worth discussing that again. I gave my points in the bug and I think they're pretty good.
21:14:14 <aleth> Convs-on-hold isn't a dead end as it shows the number of messages that have arrived
21:14:43 <aleth> Though there may be other ways of displaying that info of course...
21:15:01 <Mic> aleth: how does that help in getting back to your conversation?
21:15:13 <flo> Mic: yeah, I didn't say you don't have good points; we just disagree, probably because of very different use cases and desktop environment
21:15:24 <aleth> What do you mean by "getting back"?
21:15:49 <aleth> I think Mic makes some good points too, in particular that convs-on-hold is currently also used as a workaround for what are really unfixed bugs
21:16:18 <flo> wnayes: don't hesitate to ask questions if you want help to understand what the different directories of the source code contain, we can probably save you a lot of time there! :)
21:16:53 <Mic> aleth: I'm currently using the alternative patch for bug 1380  and it seems good :)
21:16:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1380 min, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Unread ruler confusing when coming back to conversation with no new messages
21:17:09 <aleth> wnayes: I'd also recommend picking some little itch you'd like to scratch and find your way around the code while fixing it :)
21:17:18 <Mic> The unread ruler isn't in section scroll yet if I'm not mistaken?
21:17:33 <flo> Mic: right, I haven't reviewed that patch yet :(
21:17:45 <aleth> flo: It should be easier to review than section scroll 1.0
21:17:54 <flo> aleth: I hope so! :-D
21:18:21 <Mic> Good, since hat means that it wasn't broken when I tried to jump there and it didn't work ;)
21:18:41 <aleth> wnayes: At least that's what I did... then did some learning-from-review-feedback for which I am thankful for patient reviewers ;)
21:18:47 <wnayes> flo: instantbird/content is where I'm guessing I'll be spending the most time during my project?
21:19:57 <flo> wnayes: instantbird/ is the parts that are specific to Instantbird (neither shared with Mozilla/Thunderbird nor with Pidgin) graphical user interface.
21:20:18 <flo> *It's mostly the graphical user interface
21:20:44 <flo> content/ is where most of the code is for the UI
21:21:19 <flo> wnayes: chat/ is the back-end, this folder is shared with Thunderbird, and I think your importers are likely going to be there
21:21:24 <Mic> Wehn scrolled back to earlier messages the conversation still scrolls down when a new message arrives. I don't think that was always the case?
21:23:24 <flo> wnayes: the code you will write to determine which clients are on the system, and to convert the profile info for each client is likely going to be in chat/, and you will have some code in instantbird/content for the UI displaying the results
21:25:23 <aleth> Mic: I don't think I can reproduce that?
21:25:27 <wnayes> flo: I see, I'll start looking through chat/ as well.
21:26:18 <flo> if you get tired of just looking and want to start touching, I would suggest attempting to fix some small bugs of the current account wizard
21:27:59 <Mic> good night
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21:28:04 <flo> that code shouldn't be very difficult to understand, as it's well scoped (only two files called accountWizard.xul and accountWizard.js), and it can still provide opportunities to interact with bugzilla, and request review on patches :)
21:28:38 <wnayes> flo: sounds like a good idea, I've been searching through bugzilla as well and just registered my account
21:30:45 <flo> wnayes: I think bug 1391 would be good for you to play with during the bounding period (maybe not today, at it's not a completely trivial fix, I think you can learn a lot with that bug :)).
21:30:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1391 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Simplify account creation wizard
21:32:33 <flo> aleth: "Wehn scrolled back to earlier messages the conversation still scrolls down when a new message arrives. I don't think that was always the case?" is a direct consequence of the missing quote in your previous patch.
21:32:40 <flo> There was no Windows nightly today ;).
21:32:51 <aleth> Ah, that makes sense :)
21:33:28 <wnayes> flo: I'll take a look at that one later tonight, must get to class now. Thanks :)
21:33:34 <flo> aleth: and I think I've just identified a tab complete bug :-P
21:34:12 <flo> wnayes: your classes start at 5pm? :)
21:34:27 <flo> wnayes: talk to you later :)
21:34:30 <wnayes> yeah, 4:40 biology lab
21:35:07 <wnayes> the price to pay for most of the afternoon off :)
21:35:31 <flo> you don't like biology? :-D
21:36:10 <flo> aleth: so: "a<tab>" -> "aleth: ", then double click on a message from instantbot, you get "instantbot: aleth: ", then backspace, you get "a".
21:36:51 <aleth> Nothing about how it interacts with double-clicks has been tested by me :-/
21:37:59 <flo> it's what nightlies are for anyway ;)
21:38:18 <aleth> The behaviour makes sense given the code, but yeah, a bug...
22:08:48 <flo> Good night
22:08:49 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com)
22:21:24 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1406 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
22:21:25 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1407 on bug 1406.
22:21:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1406 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Reply-to-nick: Multiple nicks and compatibility with tab complete
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22:47:11 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1407 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
22:47:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1407 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Avoid nicknames being marked as misspelled words
22:48:49 <aleth> ^^ good idea!
22:50:21 <Mic> Yes, but sometimes you're so used to some things that it takes quite a while to realize that it could/should be different ;)
22:50:38 <Mic> bye
22:50:44 <aleth> Definitely!
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23:52:21 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm set the Resolution field on bug 915 to INVALID.
23:52:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=915 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, Allow dragging buddy names into tags to move them.
23:57:24 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm set the Resolution field on bug 1132 to INCOMPLETE.
23:57:28 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1132 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INCOMPLETE, Not showing end of line on some target clients