#instantbird log on 04 16 2012

All times are UTC.

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02:59:07 <instant-buildbot> build #556 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/556
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06:24:30 <Mic> Good morning
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10:08:29 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 1352 on bug 1378.
10:08:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1378 tri, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Avoid sending empty nicks when changing modes with tab complete
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10:15:59 <clokep> I found that Google Voice is a good way to text btw. ;)
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10:19:34 <EionRobb> ... if it's available in your country :)
10:21:45 <flo> clokep: maybe \s+ would let you use trim
10:23:07 <clokep> flo: I'll write a test for it. ;)
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10:23:15 <flo> :)
10:23:26 <clokep> EionRobb: Yes, he said he's in Illinois though. ;)
10:23:30 <clokep> I used it before I had texting.
10:23:40 <clokep> (Well I used it only for texting, before I had texting is what I mean.)
10:24:06 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1380 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
10:24:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1380 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unread ruler confusing when coming back to conversation with no new messages
10:25:43 <clokep> flo: If splitting on \s+ works...that probably needs to be changed throughout that entire file.
10:26:55 <Mic> Awesome, bugzilla suggests email adresses when entering a 'real name'. No more looking up alet h's email adress from now on ;)
10:27:36 <Mic> (atleast for CC but I can imagine it also works for review fields and the like)
10:32:01 <flo> aleth: I'm afraid nobody will fix bugs of the add-ons website in the near future :(
10:32:02 <clokep> I think it supports it everywhere.
10:32:16 <flo> aleth: except if you volunteer to dive into that very ugly code of course
10:32:38 <flo> aleth: but I wouldn't advise you to do it :(
10:32:40 <clokep> flo: I fixed a bug in the add-ons website recently. ;)
10:32:57 <flo> clokep: which one was that?
10:33:41 <clokep> flo: That seamonkey infinite loop one.
10:33:52 <flo> ah right
10:33:59 <flo> that wasn't a hard one though :)
10:34:05 <flo> was easy to grep for "seamonkey"
10:35:55 <clokep> Convincing Even to review it was hard...
10:36:51 <flo> uh, yeah :(
10:45:10 <Mic> The proxy-dialog "To connect accounts" -button (on Options->Advanced->Network) means "To connect libpurple accounts" if I'm not mistaken
10:45:30 <flo> yes
10:45:33 <Mic> While "For everythign else" includes js-protocol accounts..
10:45:38 <Mic> OK, thanks.
10:46:24 <Mic> I should just hide that then for bug 1367 and check for existence of the libpurple core in Components.classes.
10:46:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1367 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Suppress errors when running without libpurple
10:46:52 <Mic> I didn't mean to catch every case where someone broke something but rather to allow to create Ib with libpurple "cleanly removed"
10:47:12 <Mic> flo: is that fine with you?
10:47:20 <Mic> bbl (lunch)
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10:50:56 <flo> Mic: sounds great!
10:51:12 <flo> Mic: but maybe you also want to add a configure flag while you are at it?
10:51:17 <flo> --disable-libpurple
10:52:08 <flo> except if we are planning to build libpurple as an extension soon
10:57:18 <EionRobb> sounds exciting :)
10:58:20 <flo> EionRobb: which part?
10:58:34 <EionRobb> the libpurple as an extension thing
10:59:02 <flo> it doesn't change things much, except that people can click "disable" in the add-on manager
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11:26:27 <logiclord> I was thinking that we can keep track of current conversation using a data structure
11:27:07 <clokep_work> logiclord: We already keep track of current conversations?
11:27:23 <logiclord> where ?
11:27:35 <logiclord> whenever a new conversation is added we will mark a reference for conversation object and remove similarly 
11:28:23 <logiclord> then we can serialize conversation object just before closing instantbird window in a file 
11:28:54 <logiclord> and deserialize to restore session
11:28:55 <logiclord> ?
11:29:44 <clokep_work> logiclord: Where? I don't know exactly (flo would definitely know), but I'd imagine somewhere in the conversations service.
11:30:59 <logiclord> lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/imIConversationsService.idl ?
11:31:57 <clokep_work> Yes, but that's the interface, not the implementation..
11:32:15 <aleth> logiclord: It's possible persisted attributes might be enough storage for the "storing in a file" part
11:32:29 <logiclord> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imConversations.js
11:33:16 <logiclord> aleth : We can save minimal details required to restart conversation only ?
11:33:31 <Mic> logiclord: you want to restore previous conversation if I'm not mistaken?
11:33:33 <aleth> logiclord: If I am guessing correctly, what you mean is that currently there is no object that stores the conversation info together with which window it is in etc?
11:33:43 <logiclord> Mic : yes
11:33:55 <clokep_work> Looks like: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imConversations.js#353
11:34:11 <clokep_work> I'm pretty sure there is aleth.
11:34:24 <Mic> I'd say try to use the logs and add what's needed to get messages from a certain session/range of time to the logger component
11:34:45 <aleth> clokep_work: There should be, but it might not be packaged in a way suitable for persisting
11:34:49 <aleth> logiclord: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XUL/Attribute/persist
11:34:54 <logiclord> clokep_work : I think we can access details from that
11:35:14 <aleth> Mic: I think that's a different bug
11:36:00 <Mic> and blocking "restore conversations" ;)
11:37:01 <Mic> I think duplicating the contents that are already in the logs is bad.
11:37:26 <logiclord> One more thing how do I trigger something when instantbird is about to close
11:37:34 <clokep_work> Mic: I agree.
11:37:57 <logiclord> Mic :  We will not duplicate logs.. just protocol, buddy user was talking to etc
11:37:58 <Mic> The problem is that you can only request a conversation for a previous session from the logger, and not messages that you could insert somewher
11:38:02 <clokep_work> logiclord: There should be some sort of closing even fire. I think we fire a "OMG the core is about the shutdown!" type event...
11:38:37 <logiclord> clokep_work will search on lxr
11:38:53 * clokep_work wonders if purple-quit is stil the right name...
11:39:18 <clokep_work> Well there's http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/imICoreService.idl#46, but it might be too late at that point.
11:39:43 <Mic> flo: I'll give the disable-libpurple a shot, it sounds interesting, but I'm expecting to need a lot of advice/feedback on this ;)
11:40:48 <aleth> Mic: you are talking about bug 958, logiclord is talking about bug 307
11:40:49 <logiclord> Mic : will this much storage work ?
11:40:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows
11:40:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=307 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Restoring session after restart
11:41:34 <aleth> logiclord: Maybe look for what triggers the quit warnings...
11:41:41 <Mic> brb
11:43:07 <logiclord> clokep_work: I think all conversations would have already closed by that point in time
11:43:40 <clokep_work> logiclord: Yes, possibly... http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imConversations.js#358 sounds promising too. :)
11:44:41 <logiclord> Let me play around a bit ... will be back with results :)
11:45:11 <Mic> aleth: but doesn't bug 307 imply bug 958?
11:45:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=307 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Restoring session after restart
11:45:15 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=958 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Show last messages (history) in new chat windows
11:45:36 <clokep_work> Mic: No.
11:45:41 <aleth> I don't think so. You can restore all the open conversations without filling them with anything.
11:45:47 <clokep_work> You can simply reopen all the conversations.
11:45:47 <Mic> I mean it sounded like logiclord wanted to store the conversation to disk, so he can reload the messages later?
11:46:11 <aleth> No, I he's just trying to restore window state & reconnect etc
11:46:18 <Mic> What was this serializing-conversations-thing then about?
11:46:38 <aleth> Unusual verb choice? ;)
11:46:45 <Mic> OK :)
11:47:01 <aleth> or in fact, very precise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serialization
11:48:00 <logiclord> Mic : I meant to serialize (like XUL persisted attributes) to restore conversation windows 
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11:56:17 <clokep_work> Right, unfortunately we can't just use the persisted attributes.
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11:57:48 <Mic> I don't see how that could possibly work?
11:58:52 <clokep_work> Which part?
11:59:17 <aleth> The tricky part is that you have to make sure all the necessary accounts are connected, then wait until the connection is established, then open the conversations. But why impossible?
11:59:30 <Mic> "using persisted attributes"
11:59:46 <clokep_work> Yes, that won't work. I think he's saying the same concept.
11:59:49 <aleth> That's just for storage.
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12:00:16 <clokep_work> "Serialize" usually means to take an object and convert it to string/binary data for storage/transfer in such a way that you can reconstruct the "same" object later on.
12:02:46 <clokep_work> Is that what you meant logiclord? Or did you literally mean using the XUL persisted attribute?
12:03:22 <Mic> clokep_work: I know..
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12:03:42 <aleth> clokep_work: I brought up persist just as a possible means of storing whatever serialized data he produces. 
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12:06:04 <logiclord> clokep_work : I meant on similar lines ... although I will have a look on persisted attributes 
12:06:18 <Mic> logiclord: you could always track all changes (account connected/disconnected, conv opened/closed) by the proper notifications and write that into a file in the profile frequently. This way you'll even have a session to restore if IB crashed.
12:07:04 <logiclord> Mic : That's a superset of what I thought 
12:07:24 <logiclord> I think I tend to be too ambiguous now a days :-/
12:08:31 <logiclord> Mic : Since I didn't knew about current conversation tacking so I thought I could keep necessary info In a data structure and remove If user choose to close it selectively otherwise serialize this ds in a file and restore next time
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12:08:54 <logiclord> *closing refers to window
12:09:02 <aleth> Mic: That's probably better than persist
12:09:26 <clokep_work> Mic: Yes, that sounds like a better idea. :)
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12:11:18 <logiclord> Mic : btw how do I get notifications ?
12:11:20 <aleth> logiclord: You have seen this? https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Notifications:trunk
12:11:30 <Mic> logiclord: there :)
12:11:55 <Mic> It's not absolutely uptodate but I think most of the notifications should be OK.
12:12:06 <aleth> Probably just incomplete
12:12:24 <aleth> There is the interruptions manager too...
12:12:40 * clokep_work is going to update that page...
12:13:30 <clokep_work> Bah, I'm not an administrator on that...I can't overwrite pages.
12:13:41 <clokep_work> I moved Instantbird:Notifications --> Instantbird:Notifications:0.2 though.
12:14:12 <flo> the above questions about conversations seem very ambiguous to me, we have at least 3 different types of objects that could reasonably be called conversations
12:14:40 <aleth> I think that's what is confusing when you first encounter the IB code.
12:16:06 <logiclord> I think I should have a look at required parameters to initiate a new conversation and basically choose object that satisfy this criteria 
12:17:12 <aleth> The idea of listening for relevant events and updating the stored info accordingly seems a good one.
12:17:15 <flo> aleth: and I suspect what logiclord is really interested in is conversation *windows*; something I wouldn't call "conversations" :)
12:17:33 <aleth> Right. That's another level :-/
12:17:55 <aleth> Some of the relevant events will be window events
12:18:14 <logiclord> flo: yes was trying to use UI 
12:18:28 <aleth> Not a really easy first bug ;)
12:19:28 <Mic> Isn't it only the account and contacts that you are having the conversation with that's necessary to store? For restoring: connect the account, wait for it to succeed, open new conversations to contacts (and join MUCs) of this account and do that for all accounts you have stored.
12:20:02 <aleth> Mic: You also need the number of windows and where the conversations are in those
12:20:15 <Mic> I was about to write that ;)
12:20:27 <Mic> And this part sounds less fun than the rest to me ;)
12:20:52 <Mic> *than the other 
12:21:14 <logiclord> In contacts you include chat-rooms as well ?
12:21:36 <flo> Mic: what about private messages from people not in your contact list? ;)
12:22:00 <Mic> Or what about conversations on hold?
12:22:49 <logiclord> flo :  then can you point me to correct object ?
12:23:00 <Mic> logiclord: for chat-rooms it sounds particularly useful since you wouldn't have to bother with "auto-join" anymore
12:23:26 <aleth> On hold should ideally be restored to on hold I suppose
12:23:50 <flo> logiclord: not until I have a clear idea of what you are actually trying to do :-/
12:23:58 <logiclord> aleth : there must be something like state of conversation :-/
12:24:38 <flo> logiclord: but I guess I can at least explain what are the 3 different conversations objects I had in mind, that may help you to understand the situation a bit better
12:24:49 <logiclord> flo : yup
12:25:29 <flo> logiclord: there's the conversation binding (an XBL binding) implemented in http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/conversation.xml That's for the UI displaying a conversation (a textbox, a list of displayed messages, and for chatrooms a list of participants)
12:26:41 <flo> there are the objects implementing the imIConversation interface (http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/imIConversationsService.idl#43), they are implemented by http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imConversations.js These objects are what the instantbird core knows about a conversation.
12:27:46 <flo> and there are the conversation objects implemented by each protocol plugin, implementing the prplIConversation interface (http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/prplIConversation.idl#53). These objects are low level
12:28:09 <Mic> bye
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12:28:28 <logiclord> flo : imConversations are used by all protocols ? I think I saw some protocol specific as well
12:29:10 <flo> I don't understand that question.
12:29:24 <flo> it's protocol-independent; protocols don't have to care about what happens at that level
12:30:18 <logiclord> I thought we may need some specific information about  some protocols 
12:30:34 <logiclord> like irc channels doesn't make any sense in facebook
12:31:58 <flo> a chatroom (so an irc channel for example) will implement prplIConvChat (which inherits from prplIConversation). A private conversation (whatever the protocol) will implement prplIConvIM (which also inherits from prplIConversation)
12:33:01 <logiclord> Then I think I should start from  http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/src/imConversations.js  
12:34:03 <clokep_work> FYI: I updated https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Notifications:trunk a bit...
12:35:30 <logiclord> btw any snippet for using notification ?
12:35:35 <flo> logiclord: I'm still not sure of what you are trying to do?
12:35:59 <flo> logiclord: search for an example of using nsIObserverService on developer.mozilla.org, there's probably one :)
12:37:09 <logiclord> flo : I am trying to get minimal information about all current conversations 
12:37:19 <flo> logiclord: more specifically, I'm not sure if you are trying to save the list of currently open conversations, or what was displayed in the session (what conversation was displayed in which window, etc...)
12:37:25 <aleth> logiclord: https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/307 maybe?
12:37:31 <aleth> for a very simple example
12:37:51 <aleth> But I am also not sure about what exactly you are asking
12:38:09 <logiclord> flo : windows will be my next step 
12:39:02 <flo> I'm not sure if something that may involve starting from scratch can be called "next step"... but assuming you learn a lot in the process, it seems ok! :)
12:39:14 <logiclord> flo : First I am trying to just restart the conversations irrespective of their window organization
12:39:33 <flo> You may also be interested in this JS module: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/modules/imWindows.jsm
12:40:05 <logiclord> flo :  you mean we can get all required information from UI only ?
12:40:47 <flo> logiclord: trying to restart conversations (= the user can talk in them), or just to redisplay the conversations/messages the user may have missed if the application crashed while he was away?
12:41:16 <flo> if you want things to look the same as before a crash, you want to reopen conversation tabs even if the associated account is offline
12:41:40 <aleth> you want to reconnect the account in fact
12:41:57 <flo> aleth: you may not have a network connection
12:42:17 <logiclord> flo : trying to restart conversations (= the user can talk in them),
12:42:40 <flo> aleth: but yes, if the goal is full session restore, keeping a list of which accounts were online at shutdown (or just before a crash) is needed too
12:43:06 <aleth> flo: yes, of course then reconnect can fail, but that's life.
12:43:20 <flo> aleth: and the crash can happen again ;)
12:43:56 <logiclord> flo : why crash again when we fail to connect ?
12:43:58 <aleth> Thankfully I can't remember the last time a properly installed IB crashed :D
12:44:22 <flo> aleth: you can probably find ideas on crash-stats ;)
12:44:32 <aleth> flo: I just consider myself lucky
12:44:52 <clokep_work> aleth: I crashed a few days ago.
12:44:55 <flo> logiclord: because if the crash is not random, it's likely to happen again when performing the exact same thing (connecting the same account, displaying the same message, ...)
12:44:55 <clokep_work> Shutdown crash.
12:44:55 <aleth> The Linux version seems less afflicted by crashes somehow
12:46:04 <logiclord> flo :  I meant how can we crash while connecting an account ?
12:47:23 <flo> logiclord: a poor protocol plugin implementation, a failed update that put some dll files in an incorrect state. There are lots of possible unfortunate reasons for crashing.
12:48:37 <logiclord> hmm.. then I guess I should work for conversation rather than UI at this moment 
12:49:16 <aleth> These failure modes are probably not something you need to worry about at first
12:49:31 <flo> logiclord: note that power loss on a desktop machine is as likely as a crash, as a cause of unclean shutdown
12:50:33 <aleth> Mic's suggestion was a good one, of saving state frequently
12:52:12 <flo> aleth: I would suggest looking at how Firefox or Thunderbird do session restore
12:53:00 <aleth> or the session manager add-on 
12:53:12 <logiclord> flo : okay I will have a look
12:53:20 <flo> isn't it just adding above the existing session restore system?
12:54:29 <aleth> I don't know, but it does a good job
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12:55:15 <aleth> Might be a way to find the relevant parts of the code quickly
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13:00:44 <logiclord> did I missed anything ?
13:01:48 <logiclord> anyways thanks for info :) time to dig deep
13:02:51 <flo> aleth: I would expect the relevant parts of the Firefox session restore code to be in http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/components/sessionstore/src/nsSessionStore.js but that file is awfully long :(
13:03:13 <flo> logiclord: there's a log of this channel so that you can answer yourself this question "did I missed anything ?"
13:03:24 <flo> (the url is in the topic)
13:03:37 <logiclord> flo : already did ;)
13:10:00 <flo> :)
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14:47:07 * flo is trying to send the XMPP vCard and could need a protocol specific console ;)
14:48:44 <clokep_work> flo: Sounds like a good afternoon project. ;)
14:48:55 <flo> the vCard ?
14:49:04 <clokep_work> I meant the console. :P
14:49:06 <clokep_work> But I was teasing.
14:49:09 <flo> ah, :-P
14:49:19 <clokep_work> The vCard includes all the information (picture, display name, etc. etc.)?
14:49:32 <flo> s/, etc. etc.//
14:49:34 <flo> yes :)
14:49:50 <flo> I'm not interested in sending anything else at the moment
14:55:58 <clokep_work> Alright.
15:00:20 <flo> hmm, so know that my stanza containing the vCard seems correct and that I still receive "<iq xmlns="jabber:client" type="error" ... (same stanza)" what do I do? :)
15:00:35 <clokep_work> Blame GTalk?
15:00:45 <flo> Good idea! :)
15:00:49 <clokep_work> (Wireshark and see Pidgin sends?)
15:05:35 <flo> <error xmlns="jabber:client" code="500" type="wait"><internal-server-error xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-stanzas"/></error>
15:05:55 <flo> error type="wait", ... maybe it's because I sent crap during the previous attempts while I was debugging?
15:09:23 <clokep_work> Maybe?
15:29:52 <instantbot> New Core - XMPP bug 1381 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
15:29:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1381 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, [JS-XMPP] Send the user's vCard
15:30:30 <flo> if anybody wants to look at it and find why it doesn't work, that would be great ;)
15:30:41 <flo> but I need to go now :)
15:30:43 <flo> back later
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20:19:05 <clokep_work> Adamodell: FYI Google Voice is a good way to send free texts.
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20:28:40 <clokep_work> Good afternoon flo :)
20:28:43 <clokep_work> (Evening?)
20:28:47 <clokep_work> Yeah...evening haha
20:29:02 <Adamodell> hi flo
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20:32:12 <Adamodell> I've actually texted through GMail's Google Labs SMS before, Google Voice would just end up being an interface for the same thing seeing I don't have a phone
20:33:20 <Adamodell> I'm more interested in desktop clients (like do-all Instantbird) having more focus on SMS gateway compatibility
20:33:47 <clokep_work> Fair enough. :) I've toyed with the idea of adding a Google Voice protocol to Instantbird before, but it would only support SMS obviously.
20:35:19 <Adamodell> on the Windows side of my dual boot system I have old WLM 8.5 (patched up a bit) for sending out texts through the MSN gateway, works great for me to this day and most importantly if you're not logged in, when you log in you get any texts you got while offline as offline messages
20:38:52 <Adamodell> yesterday I figured libpurple's implementation works just fine with the gateway, it's just there's no means to add the "tel:+1(XXX)XXXXXXX" and unlike Pidgin you can't "Join Conversation" and manually put in a user to message without them being on the buddy list
20:39:24 <Adamodell> it was join something anyway :P
20:39:35 <Adamodell> "Join Chat" is for chatrooms and both Pidgin and Instantbird have that on the GUI
20:40:18 <clokep_work> Right, we have no way to manually IM someone.
20:42:35 <Adamodell> which I have nothing against of course
20:43:27 <Adamodell> who talks to people who aren't on their buddy list? :P
20:45:31 <clokep_work> Exactly.
20:53:11 <flo> Adamodell: I don't think not having a way to IM someone not in the list is a real design decision; it's more that nobody was interested enough in it to write a patch to add that
20:53:27 <flo> and adding yet another stupid dialog like the current join chat/add buddy dialogs would suck ;)
20:54:02 <flo> I have some plans for a better UI to replace all of that, but I'm really not sure when I'll move forward with that plan, as lots of other things have higher priority
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20:54:24 <Adamodell> not too be too nosy, but like what? :P
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20:55:46 * clokep_work thinks we need to sync Instantbird and c-c... let j c get his #s back. ;)
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21:00:25 <clokep_work> Adamodell: I think flo will be back at some point, but I think it's something like "new tab" page with an awesomebar on it...
21:00:28 * clokep_work needs to go.
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21:01:01 <flo> Adamodell: a "new conversation" tab in the conversation window, with a list of the conversation you frequently use, with some completion on it, and when nothing matches what you are typing, a way to add to the list/start a conversation anyway (but in that case in addition to typing the username, you would need to also select the account to use)
21:03:52 <Adamodell> neat
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