#instantbird log on 03 19 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:57:34 <clokep> So much bugspam, you all been busy...
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03:51:48 <instant-buildbot> build #432 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/432
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06:53:10 <instant-buildbot> build #421 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/421
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07:22:02 <instant-buildbot> build #517 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Failure [failed shell_2]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/517
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08:07:36 <NmN> hi, is there anyone around can help me answer why i cannot add new acc for facebook chat to instantbird, it say "Error: Invalid XMPP ID" thx
08:12:11 <NmN> oh nvm found
08:33:46 <Even> NmN: Happy you solved your issue by yourself. Still, if you could write using full words & sentences it would help everyone here. We're not all native english speakers and it might be hard for some of us to understand you.
08:34:26 <NmN> oh i see, noted :)
08:34:41 <Even> Thanks a lot :)
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10:34:49 <clokep> Good morning!
10:35:48 <flo> hello :)
10:36:22 <flo> I tried to work on the moz10 update this week-end
10:36:27 <clokep> I saw briefly.
10:36:30 <clokep> Mac had some issues?
10:36:31 <flo> I wasn't very successful :-(
10:37:14 <flo> right, it doesn't compile on PPC
10:37:15 <clokep> :-\
10:37:36 <flo> I've managed to make the JS engine build, but now it fails in gfx/
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10:41:30 <clokep> Does TenFourFox support PPC?
10:41:56 <clokep> Ah, it's written for PPC!
10:42:04 <clokep> Not sure if they patches that would be useful then?
10:42:57 <flo> last time I checked, that wasn't useful
10:43:13 <clokep> oh ok
10:43:38 <flo> the problem was, their goal is not to keep Mozilla to compile on PPC, but to match the performance Mozilla has for other architectures
10:44:11 <clokep> Ah, I see.
10:44:14 <flo> so they do large changes, that touch code used for other architectures too; but that's completely untested, because they compile only for PPC (and maybe Mac Intel too)
10:44:37 <flo> ah, seems I need the patch from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=712870 :)
10:44:38 <clokep> Ah, I didn't realize they were doing huge code changes like that. :) I thought they were just making the Mac PPC stuff build.
10:46:20 <flo> bah, that patch doesn't apply at all :(
10:53:14 <clokep> Bah, I hate Peter Lairo, he's such a Debbie downer.
10:53:32 <clokep> Re: m.d.a.thunderbird post.
10:53:49 <flo> I suppose that means I should go read the newsgroup
10:54:16 <clokep> Probably not.
10:54:27 <clokep> Just him being a jerk as normal.
10:54:51 <flo> is it related to IM?
10:54:53 * clokep wants to reply but knows it isn't worth it.
10:54:54 <clokep> Yes.
10:54:56 <clokep> And Instantbird.
10:55:14 <flo> then I should definitely go read it
10:55:15 <clokep> But not really, just hims aying it's useless and Tb management blows.
10:55:28 <clokep> Re: Postbox equivalence thread.
10:55:31 <flo> if I manage to open a Thunderbird
10:55:40 <clokep> Hah. ;)
10:55:43 <clokep> Bye! :)
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10:58:31 <flo> ah, it seems my hack has worked, the build is further than gfx/ :)
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11:41:49 <flo> oh, my PPC build finished successfully, it's now building i386 :)
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11:48:52 <clokep_work> flo: Congrats. :)
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12:01:18 <clokep_work> "Digsby stores only main account password locally and all other IM account passwords (such as Yahoo, Gmail, AIM) are stored in the servers."
12:01:26 <clokep_work> Uhh...seriously? And people still use Digsby?
12:02:01 <flo> clokep_work: that doesn't seem more wrong than posting digsby ads with people's accounts, or selling people's CPU cycles ;)
12:02:39 <flo> but yeah, meebo, digsby, trillian, etc... store all account credentials on servers.
12:03:17 <flo> And we will probably do the same thing once we have sync ;). It won't be possible for us to decrypt that information, but from most users' point of view, I guess that doesn't make any difference
12:05:36 <clokep_work> Yes...
12:05:45 <clokep_work> But it would be optional, you don't HAVE to store it on the server.
12:06:04 <flo> isn't it somehow optional for all these 3 services?
12:06:31 <flo> I think I saw some post where they pretended you can still connect your IM accounts if their central server is down
12:07:50 <clokep_work> Ah, OK.
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12:08:07 <clokep_work> The implication to me was that you couldn't get your info if you didn't log into them. :)
12:08:19 <flo> probably somehow optional, but with a sucky UI to discourage using that option :)
12:18:34 <clokep_work> Sounds likely. :)
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13:02:48 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird.org for attachment 1262 on bug 1308.
13:02:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1308 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Errors on joining channel: "Adding a chat buddy twice"
13:05:29 <flo> clokep_work: I don't want to land bug 1344 in the same nightly as any other major change (like a Mozilla or libpurple upgrade)
13:05:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1344 nor, --, ---, florian, ASSI, stop using XPCOM proxies in purpleSockets
13:09:03 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 1262 on bug 1308.
13:09:09 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1308 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Errors on joining channel: "Adding a chat buddy twice"
13:10:08 <clokep_work> flo: Makes sense, just wanted to let you know I had looked over it a bit. :)
13:10:17 <flo> sure, thanks :)
13:12:47 <clokep_work> That mean we're going to have a Mozilla upgrade? ;)
13:13:07 <flo> my mac build failed
13:13:11 <flo> (again)
13:13:18 * clokep_work sighs.
13:13:20 <clokep_work> Silly Macs.
13:14:39 <flo> both the PPC and i386 builds finished OK
13:15:06 <flo> it's the "postflight" (merging both builds into a single universal build) that failed
13:15:26 <flo> probably some build system changes we need to port
13:16:14 <clokep_work> :-/
13:17:05 <sonny> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/r0sq9/mozilla_writes_javascript_implementation_of_xmpp/ ^flo
13:17:52 <flo> sonny: "in a fairly straight-forward and clean way." ;)
13:18:57 <flo> sonny: there are some friendly trolls in there ("Even though great that they have achieved this, XMPP should die. It makes Skype look good.") ;)
13:19:09 <sonny> :)
13:23:06 <flo> "I have never looked at file transfers in XMPP, but if they have worse problems than DCC has, then I would expect them to actually delete random files off my hard drive instead of transferring things." ahah :)
13:26:41 <clokep_work> flo: I can attest that that's probably true. :)
13:28:22 <clokep_work> Unfortunately that page mentions Instantbird but doesn't seem to imply the code came from Instantbird. ;)
13:28:58 <flo> no, instantbird uses libpurple for XMPP ;)
13:29:59 <flo> "instantbird just uses libpurple to handle instant messenger calls"
13:30:16 <flo> I like that "just uses libpurple" way of saying things. Like... it's easy, you can just do it :-D
13:30:58 <clokep_work> Hah.
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13:44:35 <tymerkaev> hi
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13:52:28 <waynenguyen> hi
13:56:51 <waynenguyen> For the account import wizard, can I consider importing username/password from the browsers also? It makes sense to me that when the user remembers their information on an IM client, they do that too (remember password) on a browser when they access their mail.
13:57:37 <flo> you mean to get a gmail password?
13:57:50 <flo> that would probably be possible
13:57:54 <waynenguyen> hmm 
13:58:04 <waynenguyen> Not only gmail, I think
13:58:17 <waynenguyen> Can get Facebook, Yahoo, Hotmail... also
13:58:51 <flo> maybe AIM too
13:59:01 <waynenguyen> yeah
13:59:36 <waynenguyen> Firefox has the nsILoginManager which is quite useful for this
14:00:58 <waynenguyen> I tried that on an Firefox extension and it returns the host/username/password correctly, I just don't know how to call that from an Instantbird extension
14:01:47 <flo> Firefox may not be the only browser to consider
14:01:52 <waynenguyen> Yeah
14:02:11 <waynenguyen> I plan to do Chrome and IE also.
14:02:43 <waynenguyen> But I start with Firefox first since I'm more familiar with it :)
14:04:50 <waynenguyen> flo: From the Firefox extension, I see that nsILoginManager will get keys3.db and signon.sqlite from the profile directory, can I first copy those to Instantbird profile directory and then call nsILoginManager? 
14:05:53 <flo> Do you think that overwriting all existing passwords saved in Instantbird is worth this?
14:08:13 <waynenguyen> But the wizard only runs when user first install Instantbird right?
14:08:51 <flo> so if you click "cancel" you'll have no hope of reopening it?
14:09:58 <waynenguyen> I suppose so.
14:10:58 <waynenguyen> What do you think?
14:18:47 <flo> I think copying Firefox's password manager files into the Instantbird profile isn't a good idea
14:28:22 <waynenguyen> Ok, but then I'll delete them anyway.
14:29:03 <flo> what if there are several Firefox profiles on the user's system? ;)
14:30:23 <waynenguyen> Yeah, I thought about that :)
14:32:24 <waynenguyen> I'll copy them one by one, store the hosts/usernames/passwords into a (text) file, and finally import those accounts into Instantbird.
14:33:45 <waynenguyen> But I'm not sure it's a conventional way to do that. I think it would be better if I can call the xpcom component from Instantbird to get the info from Firefox.
14:34:25 <flo> clokep_work: do you think this reply is worth posting? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/20545
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14:48:16 <Mic|web> Peter Lairo is here again? :(
14:48:51 <flo> who is he? Was he famous? :)
14:49:20 <Mic|web> He's reported a bug with us once and commented on Mozilla stuff here and there. He's such a nuisance and can't seem to do anything but to hate anything that other people do :(
14:51:34 <flo> it seems he's upset with https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=250539 not getting fixed
14:55:08 <flo> the only Instantbird bug that where he's the reporter that I can find is bug 151
14:55:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151 enh, --, 0.3a2, florian, RESO FIXED, Use a system tray Icon to avoid exiting Instantbird when the buddy list is closed
14:55:32 <flo> he couldn't spell Instantbird's name right at that point either :)
14:56:42 <Mic|web> Yes, that's the one. I think the fun starts with comment 8 ;)
14:57:43 <flo> comment 8 was 10 months after filing the bug
14:57:56 <flo> the real fun seems at comment 11 :)
14:59:28 <flo> ah, and someone redirected him to /dev/null (mozillazine)
15:02:48 <flo> Mic|web: anyway, we can't deny that our tray-icon story sucks. ;)
15:29:53 <clokep_work> waynenguyen: You might be able to get a ref to those files in Instantbird, but you'd also have no idea of what the "real" profile to use is.
15:30:50 <waynenguyen> clokep_work: What do you mean by the "real" profile?
15:33:32 <clokep_work> waynenguyen: You can have multiple Firefox profiles.
15:34:31 <waynenguyen> clokep_work: Yeah, and can I prompt the user all the accounts from those profiles and let he choose which one to import?
15:36:28 <clokep_work> That would seem acceptable.
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15:39:16 <flo> so, my packaging bug is directly related to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=711718
15:41:11 <clokep_work> That mean it's easy to fix? :)
15:41:14 * clokep_work is going to lunch.
15:41:52 <flo> that means we "just" need to port that patch
15:42:04 <flo> I still need to understand it, but at least now I know where to look at :)
16:03:12 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/app/macbuild/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/InfoPlist.strings.in#2 (c) 1998-2008
16:04:27 <flo> that string doesn't seem to be used anywhere though :)
16:04:29 * flo removes it
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16:18:35 <flo> touching autoconf.mk.in probably means rebuilding everything :(
16:25:05 <flo> ah, no, I haven't touched mozilla/'s autoconf.mk.in :)
16:25:17 <flo> I'm only recompiling libpurple :)
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16:40:51 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1345 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
16:40:54 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1345 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Bottom of contact list is styled incorrectly when statusbar is hidden.
16:53:59 <Mic|web> Even: can you remove this new spam-article from our wiki? I couldn't remove the article myself but I removed its contents, atleast. Thank you in advance :)
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16:57:29 <flo> Mic|web: I've deleted it :)
16:57:53 <Mic|web> Thanks :)
17:01:11 <clokep_work> :) Hopefully that works then!
17:01:59 <flo> the packaged build I obtained crashes at startup.
17:05:00 <flo> uh, have I packaged only the ppc part? :-S
17:07:41 <flo> I have most of the files in a folder named Instantbird.app.app :(
17:18:55 <clokep_work> Well, two apps is better than one. No? :)
17:23:06 <flo> "Twitter is over capacity. Please wait a moment and try again." seems like a poor feedback message to say "your changes have been saved."
17:24:07 <flo> ah, it also has another message saying "your application has been updated. Changes may take a moment to appear"
17:24:25 <flo> in both cases my change was saved
17:24:55 <flo> (there was a typo in the description of the Instantbird application that appeared in the OAuth dialog, it said: "Instantbird is an all-in-on instant messaging application based on Mozilla technologies.")
17:25:33 <Mic|web> bye
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19:58:24 <flo> I wonder if there's anything we could do to make Mozilla updates less painful
19:59:04 <flo> they are currently almost impossible to do without someone who knows lots of details about the Mozilla build system
20:00:19 <clokep_work> I assume you mean that without the "wait for c-c to be a branch of m-c and become a branch of c-c"? :P
20:01:21 <flo> that won't solve everything
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20:01:53 <flo> doing that will mostly solve very boring things like updating configure.in, config/*, etc...
20:02:31 <flo> it won't help us with instantbird/{app,installer,locales}/Makefile.in
20:03:24 <clokep_work> Right. :-/
20:03:36 <clokep_work> I don't know, it seems like c-c has a lot of trouble tracking build changes as well.
20:04:21 <flo> they do, even though people making changes in mozilla-central tend to notify them in advance
20:05:16 <flo> so now I need to port http://hg.mozilla.org/comm-central/rev/259ba99bda29
20:05:20 <clokep_work> But it's also more difficult because we're not tracking m-c, we're a few version sbehind, so we (mostly you) end up goign back and finding various bugs.
20:07:23 <flo> right
20:07:41 <flo> but we also can port the c-c fixes without having to fully understand all of them
20:08:28 <flo> it also doesn't help that the patch I have to port is in a bug with a target milestone of Mozilla 11
20:08:53 <flo> I had already identified that bug as going to need to port a patch, but I trusted the target milestone...
20:09:06 <flo> but they got approval‑mozilla‑aurora+
20:09:07 <flo> :(
20:09:46 <flo> our removed-files.in is completely out of date :(
20:09:49 <clokep_work> :(
20:10:07 <flo> I think it hasn't been seriously updated since 0.2
20:10:16 <flo> I remember I wrote some tools to generate it correctly for 0.2
20:10:27 <flo> I don't think I have ever used them again, but they are still in tools/
20:14:12 * flo rebuilds again
20:14:25 <flo> so, once we are on Moz10, do we need to update to moz11 immediately? Or even moz12?
20:14:49 <clokep_work> We should probably think about updating to at least Moz 11, yes.
20:14:57 <flo> when are we going to release?
20:14:59 <clokep_work> That's current. :-/
20:15:04 <clokep_work> I don't know.
20:15:20 <flo> at the current pace, never ;)
20:15:56 <clokep_work> Yes. :-/
20:16:08 <clokep_work> I think there's a few IRC bugs we have to fix before release.
20:16:18 <flo> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=sw%3A1.2&list_id=763 ;)
20:16:31 <flo> + I'm sure there's another handful of blockers that aren't filed
20:16:42 <flo> I don't see setting a contact icon or display name for XMPP in that list
20:16:48 <flo> we need it for Gtalk I think
20:19:04 <clokep_work> Yup.
20:19:44 <flo> (in case anybody is bored, or hasn't seen enough pictures of old cars here yet, or both, the pictures I took yesterday are here: http://queze.net/goinfre/mamie/arras-20120318/)
20:19:51 * clokep_work plans to review bug 1332 tonight. :)
20:19:54 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1332 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Implement /whois and /whowas commands
20:20:25 <flo> I don't have any release/reviewing plan (yet?).
20:20:56 <flo> I just felt that if I didn't start working on the moz updates we would be in trouble, so I started working on the moz10 update + on the changes to the socket code that will be required for moz12.
20:21:24 <BYK> flo: Any time frame for en-US translation base to be updated?
20:21:38 <flo> BYK: one or two weeks before the release
20:21:51 <BYK> flo: And when is the release? :)
20:22:03 <BYK> flo: TBD?
20:22:11 <clokep_work> Yes.
20:22:19 <flo> oh, you said "to be updated", when I saw "time frame" and "translation", I thought you were asking when the strings were going to be string frozen :)
20:22:22 <BYK> clokep_work: Good, that means I still have time for Turkish :)
20:22:29 <clokep_work> I think we should update to moz11 (at least) + update libpurple.
20:22:40 <BYK> flo: Uh, right :)
20:22:43 <flo> well, the en-US update will be as soon as someone fixes the l10n mess
20:22:47 <BYK> clokep_work: +1
20:22:50 <clokep_work> And spend some time cleaning out the patch queue. :-/
20:23:03 <BYK> flo: How can I help with the l10n mess?
20:23:14 <flo> I don't know.
20:23:29 <flo> I'm generally confused around the implications of chat/ now being in comm-central
20:24:07 <clokep_work> Is there someone on the Mozilla side we should talk to about this?
20:24:19 <clokep_work> Or do we just need to figure it out ourselves. :P
20:24:21 <aleth> Hi :)
20:24:35 <flo> clokep_work: if we know which questions we want to ask, we could certainly find someone to answer them
20:24:44 <flo> (either Standard8 or Pike)
20:25:06 <clokep_work> Hi aleth.
20:25:11 <aleth> Would it help to consider the TB chat/ to be downstream of IB? i.e. a kind of "aurora" wrt to the IB "nightly"?
20:25:20 <clokep_work> flo: We should think about some questions and ask I think. :)
20:26:10 <flo> are questions like "can we get funding from Mozilla to have enough build machine to build instantbird-central, instantbird-aurora, instantbird-beta, and instantbird-release?" going to be in your list?
20:26:44 <clokep_work> It could be. :-D
20:26:55 <aleth> subtle questions I see :D
20:26:59 <clokep_work> We don't have enough testers for all that anyway I don't think.
20:27:06 <flo> we obviously miss build hardware. And if we had it, we would miss people to administrate these machines
20:27:25 <flo> nor enough commiters to put interesting things to test there either...
20:28:03 <clokep_work> Right.
20:28:34 <aleth> aurora/beta/release definitely seems too much.
20:28:48 <flo> so I guess the questions that we need to answer is: how do we make the Instantbird project benefit from the fact that chat/ is in comm-central and already translated there
20:29:25 <flo> if we decide to answer this by "we can't", then it means our translators need to continue translating chat/ for Instantbird themselves. 
20:29:48 <flo> (and no other change is required)
20:29:57 <clokep_work> We would also need to decide if we're going to release instantbird with m-c, m-a, m-b or m-r versions of chat.
20:30:23 <clokep_work> By the way, if you'd like me to open this conversation I'm more than willing to.
20:30:30 <aleth> Btw I always thought IB had rather good infrastructure compared to many other OS projects out there of similar size :) 
20:30:34 <clokep_work> (I don't want to put you in any awkward spot as a Moz contractor.)
20:30:44 <aleth> flo: your question is about a single file, right?
20:32:31 <aleth> So it's maybe even feasible to just let the translators decide what/if they want to use from the c-c translation
20:33:35 <aleth> But I'll shut up now as I know nothing about l10n
20:34:15 <clokep_work> That pretty much just puts the burden onto those translators though.
20:34:25 <clokep_work> (Which is the burden we put on them for libpurple too, I guess.)
20:36:22 <aleth> I suspect they would have to look at the cc translation anyway for consistency with their translation terminology in the rest of IB
20:37:33 <flo> if we want the chat/*.properties files to be identical so that our translators don't touch them at all, then we have to answer clokep_work's question "We would also need to decide if we're going to release instantbird with m-c, m-a, m-b or m-r versions of chat."
20:37:46 <flo> if not, then we can assume we have our own forked version
20:37:54 <flo> (or are we upstream?)
20:38:03 <aleth> That's what I was asking earlier
20:38:17 <aleth> I assumed we were because of the string freeze issue
20:38:17 <flo> aleth: it's not a single file: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/locales/en-US/
20:38:31 <clokep_work> Is this a conversation we should include Standard8/Pike in then? (Is Pike the l10n lead for TB?)
20:38:41 <Mook_as> being upstream is hard too, though, since you're on different branches anyway (so there might be branch-specific fixes needed)
20:38:51 <flo> aleth: it's just that we haven't decided and didn't want to take any step that would block us once we decide something
20:39:25 <flo> clokep_work: Pike is the l10n lead for Mozilla in general, and the author of lots of the l10n tools (compare-locales, etc...)
20:39:55 <flo> clokep_work: Standard8 coordinates the Thunderbird releases.
20:40:12 <aleth> Regarding translators not having to touch the files from c-c, what I meant above was are we sure the translations for terms like "buddy" and "contact" match? (e.g. are the c-c translators working from the IB translations in as much as they exist)
20:40:16 <clokep_work> Yes, I'm familiar with Standard8. :)
20:40:26 <flo> Mook_as: right, it's hard to be both upstream and based on an older version of the mozilla platform
20:40:38 <flo> but being on mozilla-central means we never release :(
20:40:52 <clokep_work> :-/
20:41:42 <flo> we could ifdef code that's for older Mozilla versions of course, but that's time consuming
20:43:11 <clokep_work> I don't like the idea of doing nightlies off of like m-c either.
20:43:20 <clokep_work> Too much stuff changing then, too much breakage would occur.
20:43:33 <flo> we are going to do it for Thunderbird anyway
20:43:38 <BYK> clokep_work: Current nighly behavior of IB is more like Aurora channel
20:43:44 <BYK> **nightly
20:43:46 <flo> so I/we will have to handle chat/ breakage from m-c
20:44:00 <clokep_work> flo: I meant m-c breaking m-c. :)
20:44:32 <clokep_work> We could move Ib nightlies to m-c then?
20:44:49 <clokep_work> And do Ib-release of m-release, but every 2 - 3 Mozilla releases?
20:44:53 <clokep_work> *off of
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20:45:16 * clokep_work is leaving in a few minutes.
20:45:28 <flo> clokep_work: that means 12 weeks between ib code freeze and ib release
20:45:34 <-- aleth has quit (Input/output error)
20:45:48 <clokep_work> Right. :-/
20:45:49 <clokep_work> Bah.
20:45:57 <BYK> Why not adopt their current release schedule?
20:46:03 <BYK> every 6 week thing?
20:46:10 <BYK> and all the channel stuff
20:46:11 <flo> BYK: already discussed a few minutes ago
20:46:22 <BYK> flo: Yeah I saw it but didn't get it all
20:46:30 <BYK> flo: I mean I didn't understand the main reason :)
20:47:04 <BYK> "Too much stuff changing then, too much breakage would occur." this is only for nightlies?
20:47:10 <flo> BYK: it would require buying ~10 build machines + someone to administrate them + server storage and bandwidth for the resulting builds
20:47:31 * clokep_work wonders how you go about buying people...
20:47:32 <BYK> flo: Yeah and I was thinking about getting funds from Mozilla for the project
20:47:37 <BYK> I mean if we don't get it, you're right
20:47:42 <BYK> but if we have the funds, why not?
20:48:20 <flo> BYK: we have the funds that come from our own pockets and that we decide to put into the project
20:48:38 <BYK> flo: Oh, bold move :)
20:48:55 <clokep_work> Goodnight. :)
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20:49:14 <flo> BYK: which from my personal point of view makes Instantbird the most expensive piece of software I've ever used
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20:49:41 <BYK> flo: So you are currently funding IB from your own pocket, right?
20:50:22 <flo> BYK: I'm not doing it alone, but yes
20:50:47 <BYK> flo: Okay so #1: Do you have a "donate" button which I didn't see?
20:50:55 <flo> no
20:51:00 <BYK> flo: #2 are you agains getting any additional funds?
20:51:06 <BYK> **against
20:52:08 <flo> BYK: we (we = Even and me in this context) created a non-profit organization (based in France) to be able to "cleanly" collect funds for the project, but we've never really used it
20:52:31 <BYK> flo: Please define "cleanly" :)
20:52:52 <BYK> flo: (sorry, I'm not very used to the startup or non-profit things ;))
20:53:08 <BYK> flo: (in a financial point of view of course)
20:53:13 <flo> BYK: without getting into jail for tax frauds
20:53:33 <flo> but that a bit extreme :)
20:53:38 <BYK> flo: Hahah :D Got it
20:54:11 <flo> more realistically, what I meant with "cleanly" is "in a way that let us publicly expose our counts" (We obviously don't want to publish publicly what's on our personal bank accounts :-D)
20:54:18 <BYK> flo: So, I guess my question still holds. There is a WebFWD thing from Mozilla which can help IB Iguess(may already be helping dunno). Also users should be able to donate I guess
20:54:34 <flo> it's easier to ask for people to donate money if we can show what the money will be used for
20:54:36 <BYK> flo: Sounds logical :)
20:55:02 <BYK> flo: And lastly, you may be able to find some more funds from Kickstarter or similar
20:55:05 <flo> WebFWD seems mostly about startups
20:55:18 <BYK> flo: Also did you ever think of "merging into Mozilla"?
20:55:25 <BYK> flo: If they agree too of course
20:55:31 <flo> they don't want us
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20:55:47 <flo> and either said so clearly or ignored us each time I asked
20:55:52 <BYK> flo: Whoa. Why not?
20:56:02 <BYK> flo: You answered it before I ask I guess.
20:56:08 <flo> because the platform is the web and we are not making web applications
20:56:21 <BYK> flo: Well, that came to my mind too :)
20:56:53 <BYK> flo: Though I don't see a way for IM's to be written as web apps due to the cross domain security issues
20:56:53 <flo> BYK: also note that things have evolved significantly and very positively recently, with the move to include IM in Thunderbird
20:57:05 <BYK> Until all protocols support CORS or JSONP (hahaha no way)
20:57:29 <BYK> flo: Yeah, that is the thing surprised me. I mean they liked it very much and you made it into Thunderbird
20:57:41 <BYK> flo: And they still don't want you? Sounds irrelevant
20:57:50 <BYK> I mean not make sense
20:58:27 <flo> BYK: don't think of Mozilla as a coherent organization. They are hundreds of different people (if you count only paid staff), each with their goal
20:59:02 <BYK> flo: Yeah. I think it is the best and worst thing about it
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20:59:04 <flo> BYK: Thunderbird doesn't get much love either (resource wise).
20:59:27 <BYK> flo: Well, all desktop applications are like doomed nowadays
20:59:51 <BYK> flo: Which kind of makes sense. I mean if I knew a way to make IB a webapp without using a central server, I would definitely do it right now
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21:00:15 <BYK> flo: Same goes for Thunderbird too
21:00:18 <flo> BYK: you mean a web app that has nothing to do with the web? ;)
21:00:29 <BYK> flo: Not exactly
21:00:57 <BYK> flo: I mean the web server is needed of course for the distribution but when I want to connect to GTalk for example, I should be able to directly communicate with Google's servers
21:01:07 <BYK> same goes for Facebook, MSN etc.
21:01:47 <flo> you mean directly communicate with non-Google servers?
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21:02:21 <BYK> I mean it should work just like the current instantbird. Think of it like the XUL portion of a XUL application
21:02:37 <BYK> Now IB actually is a XUL application with a XUL runner and libpurple sutff around it right?
21:02:54 <flo> + some OS integration
21:02:59 <BYK> flo: Correct
21:03:25 <BYK> If some web pages or web apps could get "elevated rights" like opening arbitrary TCP/UDP connections to 3-rd party servers
21:03:39 <BYK> than technically you can write IB as a complete web app
21:03:44 <BYK> Which I would prefer
21:03:58 <BYK> And with some magic which IE9 now provides, you can get some OS integration as well
21:04:06 <flo> I wouldn't prefer that, but it's mostly irrelevant :)
21:04:49 <BYK> flo: People want synchronization of data and apps and they want consistency and continuity
21:04:52 <BYK> I want it too
21:05:00 <BYK> I mean I want to use IB on my phone too
21:05:11 <BYK> with the same interface(may be some optimizations for mobile)
21:05:15 <BYK> and same data and same prefrences
21:05:27 <BYK> Or, more importantly, if I ever use another computer
21:05:32 <BYK> I want the same experience as my home coputer
21:05:38 <BYK> So webapps make sense in this way
21:05:58 <BYK> And this can explain the lack of interst IB and Thunderbird gets from Mozilla since I think they think the same way
21:06:03 <flo> BYK: I think your statement would be stronger if you said "I want" instead of "People want"
21:06:19 <BYK> flo: I can say some people I know including me :)
21:06:33 <BYK> flo: You're right though, making generalizations from your own experience is not a good thing
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21:07:06 <Mook_as> there are quite a few web-app-y IM clients already, I think.
21:07:14 <Mook_as> I'd just not trust any of them with my credentials...
21:07:17 <flo> also avoid "they think the same way" talking about Mozilla. They are lots of different people
21:07:34 <flo> Mook_as: exactly!
21:07:49 <BYK> flo: Yup, you're right again :)
21:07:52 <Mook_as> (also! ha! used "I" there ;) )
21:07:56 <flo> Mook_as: I would trust them neither with my credentials, nor with my personal communications
21:08:22 <BYK> Mook_as: What I was trying to explain is a web app which does not rely on their own servers for IM communication so that you can trust them ;)
21:08:36 <Mook_as> so, more b2g style?
21:08:43 <BYK> Mook_as: Exactly to the point
21:08:46 * jwir3|lunch is now known as jwir3
21:08:46 * flo wonders if he finally has a moz10-based ib that won't crash at startup
21:08:59 * BYK cross-fingers
21:09:07 * BYK corsses his fingers
21:09:15 * BYK cannot stop making typos
21:09:57 <flo> try to avoid them in translations, or to find someone to proof-read the localized files! ;)
21:10:17 <BYK> flo: I'll make Berker review them all and may be one other friend :)
21:10:25 <BYK> flo: We're very picky about the quality ;)
21:11:03 <BYK> flo: Also, above anything I have said, I think IB is "IM made right" so I'll try to spare some more time for IB in the following days
21:11:13 <-- Mook_as has quit (Ping timeout)
21:11:41 <flo> I wonder how well "IM made right" would work as a motto
21:11:53 <flo> on the website we currently have "IM has never been easier!"
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21:13:06 <BYK> flo: I think that may repulse some people because it sounds too arrogant
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21:13:12 <BYK> flo: That's only what I think :)
21:13:25 <BYK> flo: And I love to work on projects I love
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21:14:26 <Mook_as> it's certainly a better tagline than "IM made horribly, horribly wrong"
21:14:34 <BYK> LOL
21:14:40 <flo> ok, my new build seems to work
21:14:55 <flo> I wonder how soon aleth will jump on the new crap that there's in the error console and fix it :)
21:15:30 <flo> there's a JS error: Error: ERROR addons.xpi: Error processing file changes: TypeError: Cc['@mozilla.org/base/telemetry-ping;1'] is undefined Source File: resource://gre/modules/XPIProvider.jsm Line: 1717
21:16:00 <BYK> flo: Seems to be related with the telemetry option in the recent releases
21:16:12 <BYK> flo: Have you checked your config for the telemetry potion
21:16:14 <BYK> turning it off may help?
21:16:26 <BYK> **option
21:16:28 <BYK> not potion
21:17:11 <BYK> toolkit.telemetry.enabled
21:17:18 <BYK> should be false I guess
21:18:12 <Mook_as> odd, it sounds like (for m-c at least) the component should always exist
21:18:24 <Mook_as> (whether or not it tracks anything is a different matter)
21:18:42 <BYK> Mook_as: May be it requires a server response to get constructed or similar?
21:19:12 <flo> Mook_as: we may need to add it to the package manifest
21:19:42 <Mook_as> ah, packaged builds
21:20:06 * BYK felt himself as a guy knows nothing and speaks
21:20:57 <BYK> Gotta go, see you later all :)
21:21:07 <flo> "22:17:12 - BYK: toolkit.telemetry.enabled should be false […]" It's false (just checked)
21:21:37 <BYK> flo: Then your statement should be true about manifests? :)
21:22:02 <BYK> really should go this time, bye! :)
21:22:07 <-- BYK has quit (Quit: Instantbird -- http://www.instantbird.com)
21:22:20 <flo> I guess I need to add these 2 lines: http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mail/installer/package-manifest.in#475
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22:25:32 <Kaishi> quick question: anyone familiar with Instantbird (on Windows) and AMD's MSAA?
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22:26:25 <flo> what's AMD's MSAA?
22:26:27 <Kaishi> looks like the hardware acceleration that's going on causes the AMD drivers to try to post-process instantbird.  if MSAA is enabled, that means to look for aliasing (aka all the text) and smooth it out.
22:27:22 <Kaishi> Actually MSAA might not be the right term, but, I'm talking about a Morphological Anti-Aliasing technique that executes as a shader
22:28:05 <Kaishi> so anything that is being hardware accelerated is considered a viable target for the shader... there's some ignore flag that can be set, but I don't know where.
22:28:19 <flo> I'm not familiar with this, but Instantbird has hidden preferences to disable graphic acceleration if for some reasons it's causing trouble
22:28:30 <Kaishi> That would work awesomely.
22:28:35 <Kaishi> How can I get there?
22:28:49 <flo> the preferences have the same name as for Firefox
22:29:02 <flo> you can access the advanced configuration editor from the last pane of the preference window
22:29:26 <Kaishi> got it!
22:30:02 <Kaishi> layers.acceleration.disabled?
22:30:07 <Kaishi> toggle to "true" ?
22:30:11 <flo> yes
22:30:16 <Kaishi> cool.
22:30:19 <Kaishi> let's see, brb~
22:30:23 <flo> I seem to remember there was a second preference, but I can't find it
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22:31:04 <Kaishi> okay so
22:31:11 <Kaishi> toggling just that one makes it much much worse
22:31:21 <Kaishi> like illegibile because the filter keeps going now, rather than doing just 1 pass
22:31:26 <Kaishi> so it's running AA over AA over AA
22:31:35 <Kaishi> I can't even see what I'm typing, I apologize
22:31:50 <flo> that graphic driver seems crazy :-D
22:32:00 <Kaishi> nah
22:32:01 <Mook_as> Kaishi: you can also do it from catalyst, I think
22:32:04 <Mook_as> (the AMD drivers)
22:32:09 <Kaishi> it's actually awesome
22:32:23 <Mook_as> see the matching komodo thing, http://support.activestate.com/node/7782
22:32:33 <Kaishi> Yes, I think I can, but I can't find the option.  It isn't actually in the CCC, it'll be in some XML file or registry setting somewhere.
22:32:42 <Kaishi> gonna restart to this can stop being crazy, brb again
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22:33:05 <Kaishi> whew.
22:33:07 <Kaishi> much better.
22:33:18 <Kaishi> have to completely restart the app to kill the current state of the shader
22:33:36 <Kaishi> (unrelated question: how are the 1.2.1 nightlies?)
22:33:38 <Mook_as> (also, I think disabling accel needed app restart anyway)
22:33:50 <Kaishi> Mook: I restarted after toggling it.
22:33:58 <Kaishi> I'm just really fast <_<
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22:34:47 <flo> "how are the 1.2.1 nightlies?" what do you mean?
22:35:35 <Kaishi> flo: I just mean, are they worth experimenting with? I like to help with testing and feedback, but I don't always feel comfortable butting in before Beta
22:35:40 <flo> http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_5.0_-_New_Features_and_Changes#Font_rendering_and_performance_issues says the preference gfx.direct2d.disabled may help
22:36:10 <flo> Kaishi: they are usable, but may sometimes be broken
22:36:36 * Kaishi giggles.
22:37:01 <flo> they update every day, so if you are ok with sometimes (about once or twice a year) having to download yourself a new nightly to replace a broken update, don't hesitate :)
22:37:24 <flo> if once in a while wasting 10 minutes at the time of starting your IM client is a no-go, then keep the stable release
22:37:36 <Kaishi> Okay, so, normal stuff then.  Generally solid.
22:38:18 <Kaishi> I normally worth with the pfsense devs, that's the project I follow the closest.
22:38:29 <Kaishi> totally niche, I know
22:38:30 <Kaishi> >_<
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22:39:43 <flo> heh, I didn't understand what it could be (and had to google "pfsense") as "pf" sounds like packet filter, the FreeBSD firewall, to me and you talked about Windows before :).
22:39:53 <Kaishi> yup
22:40:12 <Kaishi> nailed it :3
22:41:22 <flo> our nightlies are generally usable, but the one we will have tomorrow is more likely to be broken than usual, as I'll push the update from Mozilla 9 to mozilla 10 :)
22:41:34 <Kaishi> Oh!
22:41:51 <Kaishi> so then 1.2 will be waaay newer than 1.1, on the back end
22:42:04 <flo> sure
22:42:11 <flo> probably based on moz11 or 12
22:42:40 <Kaishi> 1.1 was based on ... 4? or was it 5? I can't remember.
22:42:44 <Kaishi> 5...
22:42:44 <flo> I don't want to skip mozilla versions in the update, so that we can find better regression ranges later if the updates broke things
22:43:22 <Kaishi> That makes sense to me.
22:43:36 <flo> "Instantbird 1.1 is based on libpurple 2.10.0 and Mozilla 7.0.1"
22:44:05 <Kaishi> I wish I were more familiar with the inner workings of gecko, libpurple, or anything that would be useful.
22:44:40 <Kaishi> feedback is about all I can provide without trying to dig in and absorb
22:44:58 <Mook_as> it's alright, start with using the nightlies
22:45:10 <Mook_as> then things will break, and you can tell people about it :)
22:45:22 <Mook_as> (until it's annoying enough, at which point you start fixing it)
22:45:32 <Kaishi> that's kinda what i was thinking, actually.
22:45:58 <Mook_as> on the other hand: you might end up like me, who doesn't find things annoying _enough_ ;)
22:46:15 <Mook_as> (that means flo&co is doing too good of a job ;) )
22:46:18 <Kaishi> oh, flo, you're one of the head devs! howdy~
22:46:32 <flo> ahah
22:47:14 <flo> Mook_as: what about adding some Easter eggs crashing only for you? ;)
22:47:30 <flo> Kaishi: I started the project actually ;)
22:47:57 <Kaishi> very cool, I remember the initial 0.1 announcement
22:47:59 <Mook_as> flo: I can write extensions that do that for myself already ;)
22:48:04 <-- jb has quit (Ping timeout)
22:48:09 <Kaishi> I didn't start running it until around 1.0
22:48:12 <-- jc has quit (Ping timeout)
22:48:15 <flo> Mook_as: right, I think you've been successful at that lately :)
22:48:47 <-- mmkmou has quit (Ping timeout)
22:48:52 <flo> Kaishi: because of the version number? Or because of some missing features?
22:51:02 <Kaishi> to be honest, it's because I lost track of the project for a bit.  I've used pidgin since the gaim days, back around like 0.3 or 0.4 I think.  Didn't feel the need to change until I saw the 1.0 announcement.
22:51:11 <Kaishi> 1.0 beta or something
22:51:26 <flo> I wonder why I see "Error: [Exception... "Component returned failure code: 0x80570018 (NS_ERROR_XPC_BAD_IID) [nsIJSCID.getService]"  nsresult: "0x80570018 (NS_ERROR_XPC_BAD_IID)"  location: "JS frame :: resource://gre/modules/XPCOMUtils.jsm :: XPCU_serviceLambda :: line 232"  data: no] Source File: resource://gre/modules/XPCOMUtils.jsm Line: 232" in my error console :-/
22:51:52 <Kaishi> flo, here's a question related back to the first one I asked:
22:51:59 <Kaishi> I'm seeing that directwrite isn't enabled by default
22:52:08 <Mook_as> flo: hah, my crashy extension could help you track that down! :p
22:52:24 <flo> Mook_as: by crashing it?
22:52:39 <Mook_as> flo: no, it tries to log full JS stacks on error messages
22:52:46 <Kaishi> is that intentional? or, maybe a holdover from the mozilla codebase?
22:52:51 <Mook_as> so in this case, you can tell who called XPCOMUtils
22:53:11 <flo> Mook_as: sounds great (but it's crashy :-P)
22:53:22 <Mook_as> exactly :p
22:53:36 <flo> I suspect it's just a crappy add-on
22:53:40 <Kaishi> (eep, dinner's about ready, I'll idle for a bit while I eat)
22:54:07 <flo> I also see "ClassInfo: unknown interface purpleIMessage" in my console, that may be from an obsolete add-on
22:54:15 <aleth> Kaishi: I recommend using the nightly and then maybe writing an add-on :)
22:54:32 <flo> Kaishi: I don't know/remember anything about directwrite
22:54:52 <flo> Kaishi: bon appétit! :)
22:55:06 <Mook_as> Kaishi: only trust about:support
22:55:28 <Mook_as> (the DirectWrite Enabled bit)
22:55:54 * aleth should learn the keyboard shortcuts for accents like é
22:57:46 <flo> aleth: no shortcut required on a French keyboard ;)
22:58:27 <flo> I started the build with a cleaner profile, and I still have that error message :(
22:58:38 <flo> if only we had a JS debugger :(
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23:06:22 <Kaishi> flo, which country? I don't want to assume
23:06:59 <flo> I'm in France
23:07:07 <Kaishi> Ah, cool.
23:08:22 <Kaishi> I learned some francais (need that accent :< ) in highschool, but it's been years.
23:11:24 <flo> where are you? :)
23:13:22 <Kaishi> USA, just outside DC
23:16:50 <flo> it fails with Error: Cc[@mozilla.org/base/telemetry;1].getService(Ci[nsITelemetry])
23:24:39 <aleth> Telemetry gets initialized even when turned off?
23:25:38 <Kaishi> gonna try this with directwrite enabled.
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23:28:22 <flo> aleth: right :(
23:28:40 <flo> and it fails because I haven't packaged the xpt file defining Ci.nsITelemetry
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23:29:20 <Kaishi> okay, I got all the hardware acceleration disabled, which solves the MSAA issue.
23:29:33 <flo> :)
23:37:36 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/459b32cdc226 - Florian Quèze - Fix the account properties dialog in the case where the protocol plugin is missing, r=clokep.
23:37:38 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/0dcfaed3a5e1 - Florian Quèze - Bug 1284 - Update to Mozilla 10.
23:38:37 <flo> Good night
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23:40:47 <aleth> https://twitter.com/#!/tjolsen87/status/179659032481636352 :(
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