#instantbird log on 02 15 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:13:12 <instant-buildbot> build #206 of win32-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/206
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01:20:30 <instant-buildbot> build #185 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/185
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02:01:13 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1270 filed by jeffrey.adams@mac.com.
02:01:17 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1270 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, AIM login with underscore in it says invalid account
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02:45:46 <clokep> I recall a similar bug recently in Pidgin, so hopefully that's fixed upstream.
02:51:44 <EionRobb> yep, http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/13500
02:53:59 <clokep> Thanks EionRobb 
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03:40:14 <instant-buildbot> build #396 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/396
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05:16:53 <instant-buildbot> build #482 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/482
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06:52:02 <instant-buildbot> build #388 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/388
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10:33:32 <flo> hello :)
10:34:13 <Mic> Hi flo
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10:45:52 <flo> the fix for http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/13500 is messy :(
10:46:04 <flo> they had to commit a follow up and it's still wrong after that
10:46:51 <flo> if (isalnum(name[0]) == 0) won't reject numbers, even though the comment above says "AIM usernames can't start with a number"
10:53:34 <aleth> Seems they want !isalpha, but if you know isalnum, why wouldn't you know isalpha...
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10:56:50 <Mic> SVG isn't that bad btw: http://i.imgur.com/r3kkc.png
10:58:35 <aleth> Oh, are you getting rid of all those bitmaps? :)
11:01:02 <Mic> I'm trying to figure out how, yes :)
11:01:23 <Mic> I don't know how to include SVGs from HTML yet but I guess that's a solvable problem
11:03:00 <aleth> Can't you just use the <svg> tag?
11:03:17 <flo> aleth: from my point of view, what they need is a review policy to catch small mistakes before commiting them. I think they know the correct functions or know how to search for them ;).
11:03:55 <aleth> flo: Oh, pidgin doesn't review before commiting? :(
11:04:23 <flo> Mic: I'm almost sure the original design was in SVG with Inskape, and then modified automatically with a python script, and exported as many time as needed into PNG
11:04:26 <flo> aleth: nope
11:04:54 <flo> aleth: they review only patches from unknown or not trusted yet contributors
11:05:23 <Mic> flo: do you think idechix would attach the source to a bug if I made one?
11:05:24 <flo> and I think all commits are emailed to a "commit" mailing list were they read them after the fact
11:05:53 <flo> Mic: probably not. But before "leaving" he emailed me a large tarball with all the source file he still had on his harddisk
11:06:10 <aleth> Mic: If <svg> doesn't fit, <embed> might do it
11:08:14 <flo> Mic: is hamburg.de an important website?
11:08:57 <flo> I wonder what the other messengers with the spam feature he described are
11:10:03 <Mic> Sounds like it could be the website of the city of Hamburg (second largest city in Germany). I don't know why it should be really important though. I guess most stuff will be for visitors/inhabitants there?
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11:11:07 <flo> I'm wondering if they could be having a large hidden (= updates disabled) deployment of Instantbird for people working there
11:11:45 <aleth> Looks like an official local portal, if I understand correctly http://www.hamburg.de/impressum/
11:11:56 <Mic> Oh, what makes you think that? :)
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11:13:21 <flo> Mic: half the users of Thunderbird in France are "hidden" because they are in large administrations and have firewalls/have update pings disabled
11:14:11 <aleth> But if they are "hidden", why do you suspect they exist?
11:14:50 <flo> aleth: because the people who have installed them are in contact with the Thunderbird team (for feature requests, complaints about the rapid releases, etc...).
11:15:06 <flo> I'm wondering if we could have something similar for Instantbird
11:15:27 <Mic> Why Hamburg then?
11:15:33 <flo> why not?
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11:17:07 <flo> wanting to send a message to all online contacts is typically a spammer request. But assuming it's valid (if it was for spam, I suspect he wouldn't sign his message), then there are probably lots of people from the same organization reachable through an (internal?) IM network
11:18:52 <aleth> Sounds like they want "send to all in this tag", but even that is spam-abuseable
11:19:13 <flo> it's a feature for an add-on
11:19:20 <aleth> Yes
11:19:28 <Mic> Ah, it was a support request email eaten by my spam filter :D
11:19:47 <Mic> Now that explains why I can't make sense of what you were talking about..
11:19:52 <Mic> *couldn't
11:20:14 <flo> sorry :-D
11:20:32 <aleth> Gah, when you go back to python after a bit of JS or C you end up with ; at the end of everything 
11:20:37 <Mic> bbl, lunch time
11:21:08 <flo> aleth: and you forget the : at the end of some lines :)
11:21:23 <aleth> yeah :)
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11:38:38 <flo> Mic: I don't have any svg file related to message themes
11:45:32 <Mic> flo: OK, thanks for checking! 
11:45:53 <flo> I'm emailing idechix about it, but I'm not sure he will still have it
11:47:20 * clokep wonders what this email you were discussing earlier is...
11:47:41 <clokep> (And Mic++ for looking at SVGizing stuff.)
11:47:50 <Mic> It's been sent to the mainling list, in german
11:48:11 <clokep> What's the title? :) My spam filter probably got it.
11:49:12 <Mic> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/12868
11:49:17 <Mic> Here's a Bing translation
11:49:38 <Mic> Subject: "Feature: message to all (online/all)"
11:53:13 <Mic> Random thought: does it make sense to show "Voiced"-icon for participants if the channel is not even moderated?
11:53:18 <Mic> *icons
11:53:34 <Mic> Voice only comes into play when the channel is moderated iirc.
11:53:54 <clokep> It's often used to show trusted members of a community.
11:53:57 <Mic> On the other hand it doesn't seem to hurt to have it.
11:54:18 <flo> Mic: op doesn't make sense either until we need to kick someone ;)
11:54:34 <clokep> It shows who to ask questions to. ;)
11:54:36 <aleth> I've seen voice used for people who welcome newbies
11:55:18 <flo> instantbot: are you welcoming newbies? :)
11:55:21 <instantbot> flo: Sorry, I've no idea what 'are you welcoming newbies? :)' might be.
11:55:30 <flo> I guess that means "no"
11:55:31 <aleth> I think the interpretation depends on the channel ;)
11:55:48 <aleth> instantbot: welcome!
11:55:51 <instantbot> aleth: Sorry, I've no idea what 'welcome' might be.
11:55:52 <instantbot> aleth: howdy 
11:56:01 <aleth> heh
11:56:04 <aleth> kinda worked
11:56:23 <clokep> instantbot: Hello!
11:56:24 <instantbot> clokep! dude!
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12:13:32 <Mic> aleth: since Gecko 2, SVGs can also be used in backgrounds (what Bubbles currently does with normal images), that might make it even easier
12:14:16 <flo> we still need a way to adapt the colors automatically to match the bubble
12:15:59 <Mic> Indeed
12:16:23 <Mic> Replacing a lot of PNGs with a lot of SVGs wouldn't really make sense ;)
12:16:48 <flo> can't we draw the whole bubble as SVG?
12:17:36 <flo> do you think the %senderColor{N}% thing from Kopete could let us get rid of the JS used in Bubbles for the colors?
12:20:07 <Mic> Maybe.. have you posted that link somewhere (e.g. in the color components bug?)? I'll check it later
12:20:14 <Mic> bbl
12:21:25 <flo> no, we just discussed it yesterday
12:24:10 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1271 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
12:24:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1271 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Missing keyboard shortcuts for "Put conversation on hold" and "Show logs"
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12:24:53 <flo> I think we already spent more time discussing this feature than it would take to implement it :)
12:31:32 <flo> nsIPrefBranch2 is going away :) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718255
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12:50:54 <aleth> I'd be happy about some comments/feedback on the state of play in bug 860 sometime when ppl can spare the time :) Is it going in the right direction, what's missing, what's unacceptable, etc...
12:50:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Add reading position marker line to conversations
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12:55:19 <clokep_work> flo, Mic: The bubbles themselves could probably be done in just CSS or with an SVG.
12:57:47 <clokep_work> I saw that too about nsIPrefBranch2! :)
12:59:17 <clokep_work> aleth: I'm confused at what the animation is discussing in that bug. :-/
13:00:54 <aleth> clokep_work: So am I to some extent because I don't completely understand the "look" that flo had in mind. It's an animation of the (new) bubbles when you first switch to a tab with unread messages in it.
13:01:49 <clokep_work> Alright.
13:01:50 <aleth> So the discussion in that bug is a bit abstract in the sense that "here's what is possible with the present code"
13:02:17 <clokep_work> I think it would make more sense to not worry about what's possible and to think about how we would want it to be displayed.
13:02:29 <clokep_work> Do we want something in between the read and unread messages, or do we wish to style unread messages differently.
13:02:37 <aleth> Well, yes. That's why I asked for feedback ;)
13:03:17 <aleth> I'm actually quite happy already with the 'minimalistic' ruler of which I added a screenshot. Which is not to say there aren't even nicer solutions possible...
13:03:57 <aleth> The point of the recent comments was that you can hide the "something inbetween" and still use it via CSS to style unread messages differently.
13:06:08 <clokep_work> I think the ruler is nice (even breaking up bubbles), but styling the messages might make more sense, as it lets you quickly find the point that the styling changes and thus the change in styling is the same as the ruler.
13:07:39 <aleth> What I thought was important is that the solution works for all message styles, and then they can theme it however they like.
13:07:53 <clokep_work> Oh, I definitely agree with that. :)
13:08:11 <clokep_work> I can't really offer much opinion about that though. :( I don't have any idea how the message themes work.
13:08:58 <aleth> Because those are two questions, what do we want for Bubbles, and is the current code (using a hr) OK or not (e.g. the rejoining split bubbles thing)
13:09:45 <aleth> I'm just not sure what people's concerns are exactly, so I can't address them ;)
13:09:59 <clokep_work> Ah-ha.
13:10:10 * clokep_work doesn't have any concerns, he thinks it's an improvement.
13:25:58 <flo> aleth: honnestly, I should test the patch for a while before having a real opinion
13:26:37 <clokep_work> Btw the only other SoC idea I had was possibly whiteboarding / other collaboration tools.
13:26:48 <flo> I suspect that as a user who hasn't read the code, I might be slightly confused by what the ruler means and why we don't have another one to separate content vs context messages
13:27:14 <flo> is it a separate section? Are we going to be able to section-scroll to it?
13:27:37 <aleth> Yes, I would like it to be a section, in a follow-up patch
13:28:34 <flo> then shouldn't the other existing section break have a ruler too?
13:28:51 <aleth> I think it's quite possible there are nicer stylings for Bubbles than just a ruler. But I don't think it's confusing as it's quite unobtrusive. Content vs Context is a "bigger jump" imho
13:29:13 <aleth> In a sense content/context has a 'ruler' in that it also splits bubbles.
13:29:47 <flo> that's not really visible if there was a system message around the splti
13:29:48 <flo> *split
13:30:44 <aleth> Sure, it's not visible in most cases. "Split bubbles" don't happen that frequently anyway.
13:31:23 <go8765> clokep_work, any news about authorization in isq?
13:31:25 <aleth> All I meant is that a display:none hr and changed styling for the following messages is quite close to what we have for context messages
13:32:13 <clokep_work> go8765: No...I didn't test anything about it.
13:32:28 <aleth> But the mechanism has to be different for unread messages as it's more transient - it's all within an active conversation
13:32:46 <flo> aleth: have you seen what Facebook does?
13:32:57 <aleth> Anyway, I've tried to explain my thinking in the bug comments already, so I'll shut up ;)
13:33:08 <clokep_work> Is there a picture of it around?
13:33:22 <flo> clokep_work: it's difficult to make a picture of an animation ;)
13:33:34 <aleth> flo: Only for messages in the timeline, not in a chat
13:33:55 <flo> it's for the recent notifications
13:34:09 <flo> the area where you have a counter for how many new notifications there are
13:34:13 <go8765> clokep_work, can you try to test it now, please?
13:34:25 <flo> when you click it, the list of notification appears, and there's an animation on the new notifications
13:34:52 <clokep_work> go8765: I do not have access to ICQ right now.
13:35:01 <flo> aleth: generally though, sorry for the lack of actionable feedback in that bug :-(.
13:38:41 <aleth> I'll take another look at FB so I remember better what it looks like :)
13:40:07 <go8765> clokep_work, oke. may be latter?
13:40:29 <clokep_work> go8765: Hopefully.
13:43:26 <clokep_work> flo: Did you see https://wiki.mozilla.org/Community:SummerOfCode12:Brainstorming#Mozilla_Platform_.28Gecko.29 ? Sounds similar to what we want...although we want to be able to interact with the connections / protocols too.
13:44:39 <flo> that's probably going to be lower level, as necko is in C++
13:44:54 <flo> but no, I hadn't seen it :)
13:46:57 <flo> clokep_work: what's the logic of marking a bug NEW with a comment saying you want to WONTFIX? ;)
13:47:52 <clokep_work> flo: I'm saying it's confirmed as a request and isn't totally bogus. :P
13:49:37 <flo> ok... :)
13:50:22 <clokep_work> Idk, it's early here. ;)
14:04:59 <flo> I've just tried Jitsi.
14:07:21 <flo> their IM UI needs a lot of work. I'm not sure how good their voice&video stuff is (I haven't tried that part)
14:08:21 <aleth> It's really been around since 2006? I had never heard of it before
14:10:27 <flo> their copyright says 2003
14:10:37 <flo> it was called "SIP communicator" before being renamed
14:11:17 <flo> I tried it mostly out of curiosity; I don't see myself using something with a Java UI soon ;)
14:11:56 <aleth> I have one Java app I need to use, and it's also ugly ;)
14:14:49 <aleth> Seems to go with the territory.
14:14:55 <clokep_work> Java UIs can look nice...they just don't by default.
14:17:14 <flo> are there some points where I'm blocking you on the IRC work currently?
14:18:51 <clokep_work> I need to integrate the character counting code as discussed...
14:19:13 <clokep_work> I think the only other major thing is the character set issue. :-/
14:19:23 <flo> for the encoding mess, have you tryed to just put a try/catch?
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14:19:34 <flo> *tried
14:21:51 <clokep_work> Hmmm...I'm not sure if I have or not.
14:21:53 <clokep_work> I'll be back.
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14:26:03 <Mic> flo, clokep: I don't think we can remove all js-code related to colours but I'll need to check the code. There's the thing with the lookup table (i.e. it depends on the color how much lighter we make the background if I'm not mistaken, it's not the same for all colors).
14:26:54 <flo> if that algorithm makes sense and is the same in all default message themes, shouldn't it be part of the core message style system? :)
14:29:08 <flo> shouldn't we really display contact add requests as new conversations?
14:30:33 <flo> Joe Smith wants to chat with you[and said: "Hey, do you remember me? We were together in high school!"]
14:33:09 <Mic> I've no idea if we're using that algorithm anywhere else but in Bubbles to be honest.
14:33:38 <flo> I think Dark also does something with the colors, but less complicated
14:35:52 <aleth> Which reminds me that old context message patch should probably land before Mic does any more major rearranging, so it doesn't bitrot too much
14:37:26 <aleth> Though there is probably not much overlap
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14:41:59 <Mic> I think we can de-duplicate this by moving it into a JS module that we include from where it is necessary by the way: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/viewlog.js#115
14:42:56 <Mic> At least the part that calculates the actual color, not sure about the caching/preserving of old color for changed nicks.
14:43:26 <flo> maybe we could put it in the imIConversation implementation?
14:43:37 <clokep_work> That's what I was thinking too...
14:43:47 <clokep_work> Although couldn't you really even have it in the imIAccount implementation?
14:43:47 <aleth> Mic: that code is already duplicated from conversation.xml I think
14:44:04 <aleth> Ah, there is a comment to that effect :p my bad
14:44:04 <Mic> aleth: therefore "de-duplicate" ;)
14:44:22 <flo> clokep_work: wouldn't that be a problem if displaying a log for an account that doesn't exist any more?
14:44:45 <clokep_work> flo: True. I was just testing you. ;)
14:46:14 <flo> Mic: idechix replied that he may access the machine where the original svg file of the part of Bubbles is stored this evening
14:46:25 <flo> clokep_work: testing me? :-S
14:46:29 <Mic> That's great :)
14:46:45 <flo> clokep_work: do you really need to do that? I think that was the task assigned to Mozilla's security reviewers ;)
14:46:49 <flo> *thought
14:46:51 <clokep_work> flo: I was teasing you, as if I knew that to start with and was just seeing if you'd realize it too. :)
14:46:57 <clokep_work> Ah.
14:47:08 <clokep_work> Yes, I was wondering what's in that nice Thunderbird bug I can't access. ;
14:47:41 <flo> security notes
14:48:00 <flo> several mostly harmless things that we should fix anyway
14:48:32 <flo> and some notes about a real security issue that I've been discussing for a few days with a security reviewer
14:48:54 <clokep_work> Ah, OK.
14:48:59 <Mic> Would caching of the color with the buddy object (or similiar) as key be a case for a WeakMap? I recently read about that and it sounded interesting :)
14:49:07 <clokep_work> So for IRC https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507#c33 has a couple of questions in it.
14:49:13 <instantbot> Bug 507 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Implement IRC in JavaScript
14:49:33 <clokep_work> And my code had some replies to you about the connecting/disconnecting behavior.
14:49:38 <clokep_work> But it just needs to be checked, as you said.
14:49:51 <flo> ooooh, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=672029 is fixed! :)
14:50:10 <clokep_work> Then the encoding issue. :-/
14:50:40 <flo> it was making our l10n buildbot fail for translations with a mostly-empty converted myspace.properties file
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14:55:24 <flo> clokep_work: so in that comment the only question that isn't related to encoding/counting characters is "Where do I use the notification flag without any other flags?", right?
14:57:50 <flo> it seems you are no longer doing it in your latest patch
14:58:04 <flo> you used to do it in the "NOTICE" handler
14:59:07 <flo> that was in the server tab anyway, so if you have removed it... :)
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15:07:59 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1272 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
15:08:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1272 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, (Twitter) message actions aren't accessible
15:08:12 <flo> I've tried to summarize my thoughts on the accessibility improvements we need for the twitter timeline. Thoughts/comments welcome of course :)
15:09:50 <clokep_work> Ah, OK! :)
15:09:59 <clokep_work> Looks like it's just those last couple things then.
15:10:45 <flo> I'm not sure of how focus should work with link, if we take each message as a selectable item.
15:10:58 <clokep_work> What you said there makes sense I think.
15:11:07 <flo> but getting a link at the other end of the conversation focused when I press "tab" a few times has always annoyed me
15:11:29 <flo> so maybe it should only focus links inside the selected message
15:11:33 <clokep_work> And if no arrow keys are pressed, etc. then no message is selected, right?
15:11:37 <flo> I've no idea of how to do that though :)
15:11:47 <flo> hmm, yeah
15:11:53 <flo> or the last one
15:12:08 <flo> what's selected may not be visible unless the messages area is focused
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15:19:18 <clokep_work> I'm think it will look weird if a user never uses the selection stuff but the newest message is always styled different some how. :)
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15:19:59 <flo> hmm, yeah
15:20:19 <flo> so that may appear only when the user has navigated with the keyboard
15:23:15 <clokep_work> flo: Orrrr....you can consider the textbox to be the focused message and if we ever style that as a "Bubble" it can have the focused styling. ;)
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15:25:54 <flo> awesome, errr... splendid! idea :-D
15:26:02 <Mic> hmm, it seems you can't define styles in HTML that affect included SVG :(
15:26:16 <Mic> That would have been too nice to have.
15:40:29 <clokep_work> :)
15:40:43 <clokep_work> So that way pressing up/down on that buble just goes up into the conversation.
15:42:09 <flo> that reminds me a long conversation several years ago :)
15:42:48 <flo> when I was complaining that the splitter between the textbox and top-conversation-area was ugly and the conclusion was that we needed to just get rid of it, and type messages directly in the conversation
15:44:06 <clokep_work> Yup.
15:44:18 <clokep_work> That's a bigger change though then what's being discussed...but should probably be saved somewhere.
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15:52:52 <Mic> Have I told you that pressing up/down from the input box is scrolling the conversation perfectly for me already? ;)
15:55:07 <flo> Mic: don't you want us to break it, now that we finally got it working? ;)
15:56:34 <Mic> Scrolling message-wise is a really good idea, btw :)
15:56:59 <Mic> Maybe the next/previous message keys could just scroll the viewport until everything was shown of the current message?
15:58:05 <Mic> Adobe Reader does something similar with Page Up/Down when you haven't chosen continuous display of the pages.
15:58:51 * Mic should create an extension that removes the word "just" from his messages before sending them.
16:00:43 <Mic> I've put the german support email onto my todo list by the way.
16:01:29 <flo>  cool :)
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16:02:19 <Mic> I'll ask/try to find out how he/they're using IB too.
16:08:07 <Mic> bye
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17:54:34 <clokep_work> timA: Any issues after updating to today's nightly?
17:54:48 <timA> clokep_work: one sec, I'll update
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17:56:15 <timA> clokep_work: ok now I guess we'll see :)
17:56:30 <clokep_work> :)
18:00:16 <aleth> flo, is this any use for the message style privileges thing? "Components.utils.Sandbox executes scripts independently from permissions and in a controlled environment."
18:00:34 <aleth> (you probably know it already, but just in case)
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19:03:29 <clokep_work> aleth: Ping
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19:07:43 <aleth> clokep_work: hi :)
19:07:53 <clokep_work> Did you see that reply to bug 1268?
19:07:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Minimize to taskbar instead of closing
19:08:00 <aleth> Just a minute
19:08:38 <clokep_work> Does this make sense in reply? " I agree, it sounds to me like Instantbird does what you want though: just disable always showing the system tray icon and choose to never minimize to tray."
19:12:00 <aleth> He will probably say "It still won't minimize when I click on 'close'", but I think that's as close as IB gets to his desired behaviour, if I understand it right
19:13:46 <aleth> I am actually kind of surprised there is a yet another permutation of minimize/close/tray behaviour out there...
19:14:13 <clokep_work> Yeah, it's a pain.
19:14:17 <clokep_work> I forget what Skype does.
19:14:20 <clokep_work> It might do what he's asking.
19:14:42 <clokep_work> I really hate the "Close" doesn't close because it becomes very hard to exit an application.
19:14:53 <aleth> Minimize when you click on on close just seems wrong to me (but then that might be Win7's latest tray alternative)
19:15:12 <clokep_work> That's not a Windows 7 thing
19:15:42 <aleth> Imho it only makes sense when there is a permanent tray icon, because then the tray icon "is the app" and the contacts window is "just a window you can close"
19:16:00 <aleth> That behaviour has an internal logic to it at least
19:17:10 <aleth> Anyway, I hesitate as I don't know the Windows taskbar, but maybe suggest add-on?
19:17:50 <clokep_work> Yeah, that's what I did. :
19:17:52 <clokep_work> :)
19:18:01 <aleth> Actually reading it again it sounds to me like it might be microsoft breaking its own UI guidelines ;)
19:18:04 <clokep_work> I'd really like to get rid of the system tray icon altogether haha.
19:19:04 <Mic> clokep: please .. this is a much needed feature and required for parity with <...>
19:19:20 <aleth> There was a big drive to get rid of them in ubuntu at one point, and then they had to invent "indicators" for volume control etc, and now they have... yet another tray :P
19:19:32 <Mic> :D
19:19:48 <clokep_work> It's useful for some things.
19:19:53 <clokep_work> I don't thikn one of those things is an IM app.
19:20:04 <clokep_work> If we had taskbar overlays and jumplists...we should be all set.
19:20:17 <aleth> If everyone had Win7 that is ;)
19:20:28 <Mic> clokep: taskbar overlays are fixed iirc, no idea which Gecko it will be in
19:20:29 <aleth> Jumplists, from what I have seen, are a really nice idea :)
19:21:14 <Mic> I really like the Windows 7 taskbar with small items (i.e. icons only, no labels)
19:21:56 <Mic> Ah, I already commented on bug 738.
19:21:59 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=738 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Windows 7 support for overlay icons on the task bar
19:22:32 <clokep_work> Mic: Yeah, but we still need to use them. ;)
19:22:48 <clokep_work> aleth: They're useful in some applications. :)
19:23:09 <Mic> I think as soon as we get mozilla, we should try that
19:23:13 <Mic> mozilla10
19:24:22 <clokep_work> aleth: And of course not everyone has Win 7, but I dislike designing things for obsolete versions. :(
19:33:22 * jwir3 is now known as jwir3|lunch
19:33:53 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1268 to WONTFIX.
19:33:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WONTFIX, Minimize to taskbar instead of closing
19:34:06 <aleth> clokep_work: Just think of web designers and IE6 when you feel bad ;)
19:34:47 <clokep_work> I always hated designing things for IE6. :(
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19:35:50 <aleth> That was a nicely written reply in closing that bug :)
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19:37:52 <Mook_as> yeah, I think I'd like a close-button-does-not-closing-like-things (at least, for the buddy list)
19:38:49 <Mook_as> I guess minimize it instead of close _or_ tray
19:41:16 <Mic> Is anyone using the maximize button? Maybe we could "exit on maximize"? :P
19:41:40 <aleth> Maximize should open a new conversation window.
19:41:52 <Mook_as> no, it should shut down the computer
19:42:12 <aleth> or there could be a tetris easter egg
19:42:32 <Mic> Turning the contact list into a tetris playing field? That would be fun!
19:42:54 <Mook_as> ooh, via http://games.mozdev.org/xultris/ ?
19:43:06 <aleth> And then it could shut down the computer when you lose.
19:43:19 <Mic> I like this one: http://www.benjoffe.com/code/games/torus/
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19:56:02 <clokep_work> net split? 
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20:00:54 <clokep_work> Not sure if that went through but I said to Mic that only if he makes it multiplayer over the IM networks...
20:01:18 <clokep_work> And to aleth that I tried to make it sound lke we're listening to him and trying to understand why he wants it (which we are!) but that it's crazy and we won't do it. :P
20:01:18 <Mic> No, it didn't, but good idea
20:01:41 <Mic> What is this username mismatch error on Twitter about?
20:01:46 * Mic goes to read the faq
20:04:18 <Mic> Nothing in there .. any ideas?
20:04:41 <clokep_work> Usually it's from changing the capitalization I think. :-/
20:05:28 <flo> clokep_work: when I read the bugmail during diner, I started wondering if he wasn't simply asking for the Mac behavior
20:06:02 <flo> that is, the dock item represents the application, not the window. And closing the contact list actually closes the window. But if no window is left, a click on the dock icon reopens a fresh new contact list window.
20:06:42 <clokep_work> I don't think Windows supports that though.
20:07:11 <flo> maybe WLM does?
20:07:45 <flo> I hesitate between letting dust cover this bug, or asking if WLM actually minimizes the window (with a minimize animation), or just closes it like a Mac application would do.
20:08:18 <clokep_work> I'm fairly certain it minimizes it, but he seems fairly responsive so...:)
20:10:04 <Mic> Ah, the Reply/Retweet options are in the context menu. I wondered how they were offered.
20:10:19 <clokep_work> You have a Twitter account now? ;)
20:10:22 <clokep_work> Or just playing w/ stuff?
20:11:06 <Mic> It's called "MicTest123456", and now guess ;)
20:12:00 * clokep_work goes to follow MicTest123456 ;)
20:12:03 <flo> sounds like a serious account :)
20:12:14 <flo> I guess I can follow it with @testib ;)
20:13:38 <clokep_work> Instantbird actually works fairly well with multiple Twitter accounts too btw. :)
20:13:45 * jwir3|lunch is now known as jwir3
20:16:12 <Mic> Would be cool if the Reply / Retweet actions could be shown when hovering a bubble, maybe in the opposite corner (bottom left), styled similar to the nick in the upper right
20:16:54 <Mic> d'oh, "bottom right" and "top left" respectively 
20:17:03 <clokep_work> I agree it'd be nice to have icons. :-/
20:17:13 <clokep_work> It'd also be nice to show what tweets are RTs based on an icon or something.
20:17:20 <clokep_work> But that's very prpl specific.
20:20:04 <flo> Mic: what if the message you want to retweet is in the middle of 3 (or more) grouped messages?
20:25:47 <clokep_work> flo: It'd make more sense if it closed the window but kept running...but I don't think Windows uses that behavior hha.
20:26:09 <flo> isn't this what I described?
20:29:23 <clokep_work> Yes. I'm agreeing with you.
20:31:22 <flo> :)
20:31:33 <flo> people could also buy Macs if they wanted the UI to make sense :-P
20:31:49 <Mic> No idea, but this is what it looked like in my head: http://i.imgur.com/QlEaV.png ;)
20:39:34 <clokep_work> Looks nice. :)
20:48:03 <flo> Mic: you've got an email ;)
20:48:47 <Mic> OK, give me a moment, please
20:49:42 <Mic> Thanks, that's nice! So he found them :)
20:50:33 <flo> as you can see :)
20:51:19 <Mic> Not yet, .tar.bz2 is almost the worst thing you can do to a Windows user :P
20:52:23 <flo> and .ace is almost the worst thing you can do to a non-Windows user ;)
20:53:10 <Mic> hehe, I can imagine
20:54:03 <flo> the worst thing being forcing that poor innocent user to use Windows, of course ;)
20:58:53 <timA> .tar.bz2 is easy in Windows with 7-Zip
21:00:38 <Mic> hmm, is there an online converter -> zip anywhere? ;)
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21:00:54 <timA> Mic: use 7-Zip
21:01:38 <flo> yes, 7-Zip does it, I don't see why it would be a problem on Windows :)
21:01:43 <Mic> Which I'll need to find, download, unpack/install and uninstall thereafter :(
21:01:52 <flo> except if you have a Windows machine where you don't want to install anything
21:01:57 <timA> oh
21:02:28 <timA> "don't want to install anything" makes that tough
21:03:14 <flo> (I don't know if it's the case for Mic)
21:04:11 <Mic> I found a command line version on their download page, it only needs unpacking (unzip in this case ;)
21:04:29 <timA> you could get the GnuWin32 versions of tar and bzip2
21:04:57 <clokep_work> Mic: You should just learn to install and love 7-zip...it opens everything. :)
21:05:18 <timA> indeed, and it's open source
21:07:24 <Mic> Thanks, it worked fine
21:08:13 <clokep_work> Although...I actually don't think it opens ace. :P
21:23:25 <clokep_work> Mic: Were you able to find a way for us to control the colors dynamically or no?
21:23:43 <Mic> Not yet.
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21:29:26 <clokep_work> Ah OK.
21:29:29 <clokep_work> Well hopefully. :)
21:34:11 <Mic> There's always so much junk in editor generated stuff.. I removed 2kB from a 3.15kB file and it still does what it should ;)
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21:44:54 <clokep_work> Mic: It can't possibly be as bad as FrontPage used to be. ;)
21:48:21 <Mic> :)
21:48:34 <Mic> It seems you actually CAN pass parameters to SVG :)
21:48:47 <clokep_work> Parameters? Like URL style?
21:48:49 <Mic> In the form of image.svg?param=value
21:48:54 <clokep_work> Ah, awesome. :)
21:48:55 <aleth> nice! :)
21:50:22 <clokep_work> Hello JoshTumath, see you made it onto IRC OK.
21:51:03 <JoshTumath> hi
21:51:20 <JoshTumath> i hope i did. i always have problems when i use it XD
21:51:34 <JoshTumath> so does the add-on platform use jetpack?
21:51:47 <clokep_work> Uhhh...it should be able to use Jetpack, yes.
21:51:53 <clokep_work> Actually...
21:53:04 <clokep_work> JoshTumath: I think you pretty much just want https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/minimize-on-start-and-close/?src=search for Instantbird.
21:53:08 <clokep_work> So you could probably port that easily.
21:53:16 * clokep_work uses that for Thunderbird.
21:54:20 <JoshTumath> oh yes. i've never created an addon, before, though. would i have to ask the developer for the source code?
21:54:59 <clokep_work> Most add-ons are made entirely in JavaScript and XUL.
21:55:11 <clokep_work> And come as an xpi, which is just a renamed zip file.
21:55:17 <clokep_work> So you can just unpack that and you have the source....
21:55:45 <clokep_work> Licensing is another issue, but that's released under the MPL 1.1, so you're OK there. :
21:55:47 <clokep_work> :)
21:55:51 <Mook_as> yep, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/files/browse/87490/ :)
21:56:11 <JoshTumath> ok. thanks
21:56:58 <clokep_work> Honestly you'd probably just need to modify two files (install.rdf and chrome.manifest).
21:57:31 <flo> JoshTumath: welcome :)
21:57:49 * clokep_work is going s/_work// soon.
21:58:02 <flo> I'm going to bed soon ;)
21:58:07 * Mic overlook an important piece: the example included a JS script to do this parameter stuff :(
22:05:13 <clokep_work> Bye!
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22:22:41 <Mic> good night
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