#instantbird log on 02 07 2012

All times are UTC.

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00:51:05 <clokep> aleth: I think flo wants to get rid of utilities.js.
00:55:05 <aleth> There's not much left there to get rid of ;)
00:55:33 <clokep> Then feel free.
00:55:40 <clokep> I'm reviewing your patches. :)
00:55:58 <clokep> Well once my tree finishes building...
00:56:00 <aleth> I'll leave that to those who know what it is used for ;)
00:56:03 <aleth> nice :)
01:01:12 <clokep> aleth: The proper build components aren't quite there for your patch in bug 869.
01:01:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Contacts window forgets screen position when closed
01:01:21 <clokep> Would you like me to add them or r- it?
01:01:26 <clokep> I'm not sure if you have a build set up...
01:01:45 <aleth> I don't have a build set up, so please add them
01:02:23 <clokep> OK.
01:02:25 <clokep> Not a problem.
01:02:27 <aleth> Then as a bonus I can see what they are ;)
01:02:56 <clokep> Yes. :)
01:03:14 <clokep> Mook_as: Is there a way to preprocess a .js file in Mozilla build stuff?
01:03:44 <clokep> The file seems to only be in jar.mn
01:04:10 <Mook_as> this is a chrome file?
01:04:23 <clokep> Yes
01:04:38 <Mook_as> slap a * in front in the manifest? https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JAR_Manifests#Shipping_Chrome_Files
01:04:43 <clokep> Do I just put a * in the jar.mn?
01:04:45 <clokep> Oh haha.
01:04:52 <clokep> OK...what does a % mean then?
01:05:11 <Mook_as> "this line goes into chrome.manifest verbatim"
01:09:07 <clokep> OK. :) Thank you!
01:09:19 <clokep> The information is all on mdc...it's just hard to know what words to search for. :(
01:11:02 <Mook_as> (that wasn't actually true, it isn't verbatim; that devmo page has info)
01:11:17 <clokep> aleth: I'd like to put a comment in that file referring to the bug, etc. Can you write one up real quick?
01:12:13 <aleth> A comment in what file? jar.mn? I'm not sure exactly what you are doing, as mintrayr.js is not a new file?
01:12:31 <clokep> aleth: In mintrayr.js. About why all those ifdefs are there.
01:12:45 <aleth> oh ok
01:13:00 <clokep> (Feel free to pastebin it or say it here and I'll add it.)
01:13:50 <aleth> "Only on Linux, the screen position of a window is forgotten when it is closed."
01:14:17 <aleth> Does that cover it?
01:14:29 <clokep> Yes.
01:15:30 <aleth> Maybe reference the bug number which will lead to the longer discussion etc
01:16:01 <aleth> (Not the mozilla bug but the IB one)
01:16:17 <clokep> Yup, added that already. :)
01:16:17 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1146 on bug 869.
01:16:18 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from aletheia2@fastmail. fm for attachment 1161 on bug 869.
01:16:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Contacts window forgets screen position when closed
01:18:20 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm granted review for attachment 1161 on bug 869.
01:18:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=869 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Contacts window forgets screen position when closed
01:19:19 <clokep> Great!
01:19:21 <clokep> One down. :)
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01:19:29 <aleth> Oh, so the preprocessor doesn't handle all files. Good to know.
01:19:58 <clokep> Yup, you have to specifically mark it.
01:20:05 <clokep> Was there another one I was supposed to review?
01:20:31 <aleth> Not officially, but if you want I'm sure flo would be happy if you did the unread marker one
01:21:04 <aleth> If I had thought about it, it would have been better as related to your code anyway
01:21:26 <aleth> Looking forward to the contacts window not jumping around anymore :)
01:21:34 <clokep> :)
01:21:40 * clokep is looking at bug 1252.
01:21:44 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1252 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, First listitem in log viewer never shows that it is selected
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01:29:09 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com cancelled review?(florian@instantbird .org) for attachment 1144 on bug 1252.
01:29:10 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1162 on bug 1252.
01:29:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1252 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, First listitem in log viewer never shows that it is selected
01:32:26 <aleth> Gah, I try to remember to fix the paths...
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01:37:24 <clokep> aleth: Not a big deal, that one I could have actually applied using patch...but I tend to use hg import which wants paths.
01:37:32 <clokep> I think you can give a default path too...but I'm lazy. :P
01:37:58 <clokep> Hello flo! :)
01:38:10 <flo> hey :)
01:38:17 <aleth> Hi flo :)
01:44:44 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1160 on bug 860.
01:44:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Add reading position marker line to conversations
01:46:38 <clokep> Onto IRC now! :)
01:47:43 <aleth> Clearing the review queue quite a bit tonight :)
01:48:18 <clokep> aleth: That's what I figured. :)
01:48:24 <clokep> Thanks for confirming.
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01:48:53 <clokep> flo: You have a better idea for a name besides "clientVersion"? would "brandName" be a better variable?
01:50:33 <flo> it's a bit better, yes, but not fantastic :-/
01:51:14 * clokep is out of ideas.
01:51:25 <aleth> clientID ?
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01:54:12 <aleth> clientBranding ?
01:54:39 * clokep dislikes the "client" part of it.
01:54:44 <flo> I think a better name would reflect what it's used for, instead of what it contains (if you want to refer to what it contains, you can't find better than brandShortName)
01:55:00 <clokep> It's used for a couple different things now though. :-/
01:55:10 <flo> really?
01:55:33 <clokep> It's used as the CTCP VERSION reply and as the user name.
01:55:46 <clokep> Which is why it's in the Utils file. :P
01:56:45 <flo> if it's confusing because we are using the same name for 2 completely different things, maybe it's ok to just duplicate the (one line) code in that case
01:57:05 <clokep> That's OK w/ me.
01:57:17 <flo> (I'm sad I haven't pushed hard enough to get rid of the Utils file though :-P)
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01:58:12 <flo> about this horizontal ruler? could we find a way to display it above the messages, rather than between them? so that we don't have to split bubbles...
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01:59:58 <clokep> flo: Why do you dislike removing the user's nick from the participant list?
02:00:04 <clokep> It makes sense...you're no longer in the room.
02:00:52 <flo> because if you do that you seem to pretend to know who is in the room
02:01:28 <clokep> Well I know we're not in the room. :-D
02:01:32 <flo> but, matching whatever's the current behavior is probably our best option here. I haven't checked what it is, it just seemed to me the nick isn't removed by the libpurple implementation
02:01:38 <aleth> flo: You mean like an overlay across a larger bubble? I'm not sure it would be easy to find something that would look good with all message styles; enough space would have to be there between messages
02:01:56 <clokep> The nick is not removed in libpurple. I always found that strange personally, but I'm OK doing that.
02:02:03 <flo> aleth: hr with position:absolute ?
02:02:24 <flo> clokep: maybe we should just display:none the whole list for left rooms ;)
02:02:45 <clokep> Maybe. :P
02:02:55 <flo> clokep: oh well, whatever...
02:03:06 <clokep> I'll remove it, if you'd like. I don't have strong opinions.
02:03:08 <flo> if you insist on removing it I don't really mind
02:03:37 <aleth> It seems more logical if you are actually not in the channel to show this
02:03:39 <flo> but the code seemed simpler without doing that
02:03:52 <aleth> But I don't know the context
02:04:00 <aleth> flo: I didn't mean "it's not possible", more "would that look good"? e.g. with something like the simple theme with little 'room' between messages
02:04:23 <flo> aleth: from my point of view, an hr wouldn't look good in any case
02:04:51 * clokep wonders if we should just mark old messages as context instead of adding an hr?
02:04:55 <aleth> What would you use?
02:04:56 <flo> I think a good solution would be to find a way to let themes show unread message differently
02:05:39 <flo> for bubbles I would for example use a darker background behind the bubbles, and make it animate off when the conversation is selected
02:05:57 <clokep> Did we decide on new Number vs. parseInt? :)
02:06:14 <flo> clokep: marking messages as context after the fact is difficult, as they don't use the same html template :(
02:06:15 <aleth> clokep: I don't think just using context would be a good idea. That's too extreme.
02:06:30 <flo> clokep: I think new Number won, but I can't remember why atm
02:06:49 <flo> ah, yes, it was because of returning NaN for things like 1a
02:06:51 <aleth> It's just a reading marker in an active conversation
02:06:53 <clokep> I have the same though, but can't really remember either. :)
02:08:13 <aleth> flo: Also a neat idea. Seems a bit more dramatic though, if I understand right. If there was more than a page full of unread messages you'd get the whole window animating and still wouldn't know where to start reading
02:08:39 <flo> aleth: you would know you need to scroll up
02:08:50 <aleth> Yes :P
02:08:51 <flo> if you just have an horizontal line and it's not visible, you don't know anything
02:08:56 <clokep> flo: You have a better variable name than "next"? I just matched the form of the other function that Mook wrote.
02:09:05 <aleth> You do if you build it into section scroll as a section
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02:09:17 <flo> clokep: I don't remember the context
02:09:27 <clokep> In ircUtils.jsm. ;)
02:09:33 <clokep> It's about finding the next special char for colors.
02:09:42 <clokep> I also used next in the loop for the other formatting stuff.
02:09:50 <flo> so I'll have to open that bug? :-/
02:10:33 <clokep> Hmmm....actually...
02:10:34 <clokep> No.
02:10:39 <clokep> I think that function is written incorrectly.
02:10:43 <clokep> In that it works, but doesn't really make sense.
02:11:00 <aleth> flo: But you're right, there might be a pretty solution along those lines if one thought about it a bit more
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02:11:50 <flo> forcing an hr in the middle of the theme's HTML seems wrong to me. (although that would still make for a very popular add-on :))
02:12:32 <aleth> It would have been great to have that as a comment on the open bug at an earlier stage ;)
02:12:35 <clokep> Ah, it's not a loop in this case! next doesn't make sense. :)
02:12:55 <clokep> aleth: I tried to make that ocmment earlier, but wasn't able to say it as nicely as flo. :(
02:12:56 <clokep> Sorry.
02:13:31 <aleth> No, I mean when it was first filed...
02:13:31 <flo> aleth: I felt bad seeing my old comment saying "this is definitely wanted" without specifying that "this" meant "a way to find which message is the first unread message" as opposed to the specific solution proposed in the bug's description :(
02:14:31 <flo> (I still feel bad about it actually :()
02:15:20 <aleth> Oh well.
02:15:43 <aleth> There may well be a better solution, but I don't see one at present, especially not something which will work across message styles. So I'd still consider a line better than the status quo ;)
02:15:46 <flo> (I pondering shutting the fuck up about it and just checking in the patch because of that; but the last time I did that, the resulting code has been an itch of mine for a long while until I decided to rewrite it :-D)
02:16:21 <flo> *I'd been
02:16:35 <aleth> No worries... though if it makes you rewrite it... it kind of works too :D
02:17:10 <flo> except in that case it mostly needs rethinking rather than rewriting
02:17:24 <flo> and I'm mostly spending my thinking time on Thunderbird stuff this week ;)
02:17:24 <clokep> Why don't we wait a couple days and come back to it?
02:17:42 <aleth> Yeah, I'll have a think about alternatives.
02:18:03 * clokep thinks just put a <marquee> tag around unread messages.
02:18:25 <clokep> Or <blink> if oyu prefer.
02:18:44 <aleth> It would be distinctive :P
02:19:13 <flo> aleth: what I'm trying to imagine is a solution that: 1. just makes us put a class or attribute on the first unread message (or last read message). 2. Let's the themes do whatever they want with it. 3. Has a decent implementation (hr?) in the default conversation css, but that can be easily overridden/disabled with a css rule in a theme implementing something better
02:20:47 <flo> but I haven't been able to come up with a solution that doesn't involve crazy JS code inside the theme to make Bubbles what I would like to try (the different background)
02:21:52 <flo> I hope I'll be able to find something once I have time to think about it while less tired :)
02:22:02 <aleth> flo: I'll think about it too
02:22:36 <aleth> The benefit of the hr line is that it is reasonably unobtrusive and always works, and it's a known visual metaphor. 
02:22:46 <aleth> But I'm too tired now as well
02:23:16 <flo> it's over 3am French time, and even though I'm not on that time, I'm still jet lagged ;)
02:24:52 <aleth> A possible solution might be to do both: Have the ruler (which a message style can display:none or style as a picture of a rabbit if it wants) and add an attribute to the following message (which a message style can interpret at will)
02:25:13 <aleth> Anyway, good night :)
02:26:37 <clokep> Goodnight!
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02:30:21 <flo> aleth, yeah, maybe. The line that I really don't like in your current patch is |this._lastMessage = null;| but if you make that ruler go above the messages (position absolute, z-index, etc...) and give it an id, themes will be able to hide it easily
02:31:06 <flo> clokep: so it seems you are doing irc work again? :)
02:31:53 <clokep> flo: Yes, not running wires anymore. ;)
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02:32:19 <clokep> The connected logic we need to have a discussion about (maybe when you're more awake?) :)
02:35:20 <flo> or just ask questions in the bug?
02:35:37 <clokep> That could work too.
02:35:44 <flo> if the jet lag is still in effect, I'm likely to wake up at 4am ;)
02:35:44 <clokep> Honestly I haven't wanted to relook at my logic yet. :)
02:37:03 <clokep> 4am....what timezone? :P
02:37:05 <flo> it may be the reason why it's unclear :)
02:38:13 <flo> local
02:44:48 <clokep> Bleh. I'm unsure how to combine the kick and part results.
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03:14:10 <clokep> Goodnight!
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03:40:02 <instant-buildbot> build #388 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/388
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05:35:03 <instant-buildbot> build #474 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/474
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06:52:28 <instant-buildbot> build #380 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/380
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12:41:14 <clokep_work> Good morning!
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13:20:18 <flo> clokep_work: hello :)
13:21:26 <clokep_work> Been up for hours already? :(
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13:42:36 <flo> clokep_work: I woke up only at 6am today :)
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14:16:58 <clokep_work> Ah, good!
14:17:14 <clokep_work> I'll try to respond to the (dis)connecting logic stuff tonight btw.
14:17:29 <clokep_work> Not sure if you'll have time to look at it this week or not, don't worry about it if you're busy!
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14:23:11 <ig0rk0> hi dudes
14:26:33 <clokep_work> Hello.
14:26:50 <ig0rk0> is there any info about 1.2 release?
14:27:55 <clokep_work> What kind of info? :P
14:28:10 <ig0rk0> release date? ;)
14:28:25 <ig0rk0> oh and btw. instantbird often crashes in jabber conferences- how to get good log?
14:28:32 <clokep_work> We don't have a specific date planned. We were hoping for late January, but there's a couple of things blocking the release I think.
14:28:45 <clokep_work> ig0rk0: Does it send a crash report?
14:28:57 <clokep_work> I guess the best I can say is "soon".
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14:30:03 <ig0rk0> ok. i'll try again and will send the report. Question is "where is it sent to"
14:30:16 <ig0rk0> are someone reading them? :)
14:31:33 <clokep_work> Yes.
14:31:40 <clokep_work> It's sent to crash-stats.instantbird.org
14:31:51 <clokep_work> If you've sent one, I can tell you how to get us the ID so we can look at it.
14:32:26 <ig0rk0> i'll send it when get home
14:33:01 <ig0rk0> and second issue: in jabber conference few first second i don't get feedback about what message i've sent
14:33:18 <ig0rk0> i just don't see nothing after typing text and rpessing enter
14:33:33 <ig0rk0> but other users said i have sent message
14:33:50 <clokep_work> Check the error console whenever you have issues, see if it looks like something is related.
14:34:04 <ig0rk0> ah, yeah- error message :)
14:34:07 <ig0rk0> ok
14:34:08 <ig0rk0> thanks
14:34:09 <clokep_work> Do you get the message eventually?
14:34:25 <ig0rk0> i'm not using it now
14:34:33 <ig0rk0> i'll try later today
14:34:58 <ig0rk0> but maybe i don't get any messages(don't remember really)
14:35:12 <ig0rk0> see ya later, should go
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23:12:02 <clokep> A really good article about accepting user feedback: http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/02/listen-to-your-community-but-dont-let-them-tell-you-what-to-do.html
23:12:09 <clokep> We should probably take some of that to heart for BIO.
23:21:55 <aleth> BIO=?
23:22:02 <clokep> bugzilla.instantbird.org
23:22:13 <clokep> (Or "biology". ;))
23:22:39 <clokep> Mostly the part that we should actually mark things we /won't/ fix as WONTFIX.
23:23:04 <clokep> And maybe add a new resolution of like "SHOULDBEEXTENSION"
23:23:14 <aleth> Oh yeah. It's a really good point. Not that big a step from bug commenters to add-on writers (for example)
23:23:18 <aleth> They care enough to comment already ;)
23:23:34 <clokep> Hah.
23:23:53 <clokep> Unfortunately "we" generate a lot of add-ons to show things can be done...but we're not interested in them ourselves. :(
23:25:26 <aleth> Attracting more FF add-on authors would be neat... shallow learning curve there
23:25:37 <aleth> Not sure how to do that though
23:26:43 <clokep> Get more of them to use Instantbird. :)
23:27:14 <aleth> Heh.
23:27:16 <aleth> Are there many really old bugs that are effectively obsolete but still open?
23:27:24 <clokep> I don't know.
23:27:25 <clokep> There are some.
23:28:02 <clokep> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/buglist.cgi?cmdtype=dorem&remaction=run&namedcmd=Open%20Bugs&sharer_id=107&list_id=409 lists them all. ;)
23:28:34 <clokep> We have a lot of IRC bugs I hope to fix. :)
23:29:03 <aleth> Yes that will be great :)
23:30:27 <clokep> Well like bug 232.
23:30:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=232 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Can't add IRC channels to the buddy list
23:30:46 <aleth> Wontfix.
23:31:02 <clokep> bug 346 I think.
23:31:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Buddy list always on top
23:31:16 <aleth> Add-on?
23:31:35 <clokep> Oh hmmm....bug 360 should be easy to fix now!
23:31:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=360 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Limit the buddy icon size in XUL notification popups
23:31:55 <aleth> lol bug 346 actually ends with an add-on!
23:32:25 <aleth> Maybe there should be a RESOLVED HASADDON?
23:32:46 <aleth> That's even better than SHOULDBEADDON ;)
23:33:15 <clokep> Yes, maybe we should add that as an ending.
23:34:16 <aleth> Probably quite rare though.
23:35:23 <aleth> bug 131 ?
23:35:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, no Emoticons in Buddy List
23:38:49 <aleth> Interesting to see how the #bugs filed/month seems to have gone up a lot. Maybe initially the devs didn't bother to file bugs?
23:39:26 <clokep> After every release we get a lot.
23:39:41 <clokep> I think flo didnt always file bugs also. :P
23:40:16 <flo> I don't file bugs
23:40:20 <flo> I just put stuff in my todo list
23:40:28 <flo> (yeah, that's bad)
23:41:12 <aleth> There are actually some long-term-todo-list kind of bugs in that list filed by you ;)
23:41:13 <clokep> Yup. I think I've yelled at you before. If not, consider this my scolding.
23:41:14 <flo> by the way, my todo list has been rapidly expanding during the last hour, while discussion with bwinton how we can do things in the Thunderbird UI for IMs (most of that will also be relevant to Instantbird; ideas to fix our accessibility issues on twitter for example)
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23:41:40 <clokep> :)
23:41:44 <clokep> Awesome!
23:41:49 <aleth> great :)
23:41:49 <flo> clokep: I would really like a way to export some parts of what I have in things
23:42:06 <flo> *Things
23:42:13 <flo> clokep: the problem with filing bugs is, it takes time
23:42:24 <flo> typically on my todo list I only need a single line to describe an idea
23:42:36 <clokep> flo: Oh, I know.
23:43:20 <flo> if I want others to understand it, I usually need to write down an explanation of what's the issue, what are the proposed solutions, where in the code someone willing to make things move forward should look, etc...
23:44:43 <aleth> Only seems worth it if you think there is a realistic chance someone else will do it I guess
23:46:55 <clokep> I guess it's time for me to look at IRC code? :P
23:51:24 <clokep> flo: You free at all to discuss things? Don't want to take you from Thunderbirdish stuff.
23:52:23 <flo> I think our day of work is mostly over, and we have a meeting in ~10 minutes in the hotel's lobby to then go to a restaurant together... and I'm still at the office, not in the hotel
23:52:30 <flo> so I probably don't have much time to talk right now
23:52:51 <clokep> OK!
23:53:07 <clokep> I'm going to upload a new version of my patch with replies to some of your comments then.
23:53:48 <flo> I'll probably read the log
23:53:55 <flo> ;)
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