#instantbird log on 01 19 2012

All times are UTC.

00:13:34 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1125 on bug 309.
00:13:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Some system messages contain emoticons where they should not.
00:16:19 <clokep> aleth: ping
00:16:28 <aleth> hullo
00:16:53 <clokep> Do you have an example link that causes a smile for you? URLs are already special cased out in bug 207.
00:16:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=207 min, --, 0.3a1, clokep, RESO FIXED, URLs should not contain Smileys
00:17:50 <flo> ahah, we had the same reaction
00:17:51 <aleth> Yes, but this only applies when a URL is linkified. 
00:17:54 <flo> I asked in the bug though :)
00:18:07 <aleth> An example is anyone signing off with a http in their quit message
00:18:32 <clokep> Oh?
00:18:43 <flo> I think emoticons are desired in that place
00:18:44 <clokep> Do those get the noLinkification flag?
00:18:46 <flo> (quit messages)
00:18:52 <flo> clokep: probably
00:19:06 <aleth> Yes, and rightly so, I think
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00:19:51 <aleth> see! ;)
00:19:57 <flo> system messages should make a distinction between what comes from Instantbird and what comes from the user at the other end
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00:20:49 <clokep> Meaning that only the message from the user should be linkified/smilified?
00:20:49 <instant-buildbot> build #180 of macosx-onCommit started, including [41ba4fa613a16c065346cf56783f8bfe40e8a773]
00:20:59 <flo> clokep: yes
00:21:30 <flo> uh, powerbird wakes up and I'm still hacking (Thunderbird!), there's something wrong... :-/
00:22:50 <clokep> :(
00:23:15 <flo> I'm trying to highlight the keywords in gloda's search results
00:23:36 <clokep> It doesn't do that automatically?
00:24:20 <flo> search something in Thunderbird, and look at what you get...
00:24:31 <flo> it just displays the first 5 lines of each message that matches the search
00:24:51 <flo> the 5 first lines of an IM conversations are almost always meaningless...
00:24:51 <clokep> As far as I can tell only Yahoo and XMPP use NO_LINKIFY: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/search?string=NO_LINKIFY
00:24:57 <flo> even worse for a tweeter timeline
00:25:13 <clokep> "Hey" "hai" "'sup" "nmu" "n2m"
00:25:15 <clokep> Five lines. :)
00:25:19 <flo> exactly
00:25:57 <flo> even though I don't know the exact meaning of nmu and n2m, I suspect it doesn't convey much meaning ;)
00:26:24 <clokep> "Not much, you?" "Not too much."
00:27:18 <clokep> Ah, I lied. The part/join/quit messages are no linkified too.
00:27:27 <clokep> That'd be fixed if I move that code into Instantbird.
00:29:37 <aleth> powerbird?
00:29:45 <clokep> It's the Mac buildbot machine.
00:29:56 <flo> Mook_as: do you happen to know if there's a way to guess how many bytes an unicode charater uses from the value charCodeAt returns?
00:31:03 <Mook_as> hmm. no, I don't. (it'd involve looking at the unicode spec, I think - there are a few ranges that should be followed by another, exactly like MBCS)
00:31:31 <Mook_as> at least, that's what I seem to recall, anyway...
00:31:44 <Mook_as> (never had to deal with non-BMP characters myself, mostly because I can't read them...)
00:31:59 <flo> :(
00:33:18 * clokep idly wonders where package-manifest.in is...
00:33:38 <flo> clokep: never where you would expect it
00:33:50 <flo> but usually it hides itself in instantbird/installer/
00:34:00 <clokep> Bha yeah, find just found it for me.
00:34:38 * Mook_as wonders why clokep would ever use find, instead of http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/find?string=package-manifest.in
00:35:04 <clokep> I actually have that as a bookmarklet, so...yeah. :)
00:35:34 <aleth> all roads lead to rome? ;)
00:35:36 <flo> Mook_as: find is useful for things that aren't commited yet ;)
00:36:24 <Mook_as> true. I wonder what the hg equivalent of `git ls-files -- '**/package-manifest.in'` is.
00:36:59 <clokep> hg locate probably.
00:37:30 <clokep> Yup
00:37:35 <clokep> hg locate */package-manifest.in
00:37:48 <clokep> (There's also an hg grep if anyone is curious.)
00:42:43 <flo> unicode makes my head hurt :(
00:43:10 <flo> my patch almost works
00:43:26 <flo> except some unicode characters that some tweeter have fun using break it :(
00:43:31 <clokep> I dislike character sets in general.
00:44:01 <clokep> Some of my Twitter friend's characters don't always show up actually.
00:44:07 <clokep> But I checked and they don't work on the website either.
00:44:15 <clokep> So I assumed they're using some broken clien.t
00:44:29 <flo> or maybe just a different font?
00:44:49 <clokep> Ah, that's possible too I guess.
00:46:12 <flo> debugging thunderbird would be so much easier if there wasn't jquery in there causing dozens of warnings...
00:47:16 <aleth> Why do they need jquery?
00:47:49 <flo> probably a reason I wouldn't agree with
00:48:38 <flo> so it seems … (code 8230) uses 3 bytes
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01:00:04 <aleth> flo: re "system messages should make a distinction between what comes from Instantbird and what comes from the user at the other end" - I'm not sure I entirely agree. If a user wants to say something, he should use a normal message.
01:04:19 <flo> aleth: so you wouldn't allow emoticons in status messages? in kick messages?
01:07:51 <flo> wow, this time it (seems to) work(s) very well!
01:08:40 <flo> time to remove all the dumps, indent correctly, file a bug, attach a patch and then go to bed!!
01:10:49 <aleth> flo: Either that or at least not allow them in places where they wouldn't be allowed in normal messages (links etc). My point of view is that system messages should not distract me, visually or otherwise. 
01:11:35 <flo> aleth: my point is that if the system message contains something the user has typed, it's a system message + a regular message combined in a single line
01:12:47 <aleth> flo: True, but a quit message isn't really something the user has "just" typed, addresed to me, it's just like a sig in an email. I don't want it jarring me. I can see a good argument for why kicks would be different
01:13:00 <aleth> Btw congrats on the working patch! Are we going to see a gloda-less variant of this in IB eventually too?
01:13:36 <flo> the part I'm hacking on is very specific to gloda's result view
01:13:56 <flo> but the knowledge I'm acquiring will be very useful when implementing a simpler version for Instantbird :)
01:15:11 * aleth thinks better search would be awesome
01:16:42 <aleth> But I suppose I could also follow suggestion #1 and remove :/ from the TB Aero smiley theme... Just doesn't really solve the problem.
01:17:08 <flo> I wouldn't allow such a smiley in the default theme
01:18:11 <aleth> Unfortunately what is in smiley themes is not really decided by us... (apart from the default that is)
01:18:50 <aleth> Btw I am not sure but I thought the TB Aero set was in fact the default for TB on Windows Aero...
01:19:55 <flo> probably not the case
01:20:21 <flo> "Unfortunately what is in smiley themes is not really decided by us..." except we review add-ons to get them out of the sandbox ;)
01:20:36 <instant-buildbot> build #180 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/180
01:20:41 <flo> if we decide that a list of some things shouldn't be there, then can become a reason for something to stay in the sandbox
01:21:33 <aleth> Indeed this https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=515499 doesn't contain the mappings.
01:22:30 <aleth> (if that's where the add-on author got it from)
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01:35:20 <flo> I skipped the "file a bug" step, as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=518597 looks like what I wanted to file :)
01:41:17 <flo> Good evening/night! :)
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03:10:01 <instant-buildbot> build #361 of macosx-nightly-default started, including []
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06:52:14 <instant-buildbot> build #361 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/361
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08:08:31 <instant-buildbot> build #455 of win32-nightly-default started, including []
08:08:40 <instant-buildbot> build #370 of linux-nightly-default started, including []
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08:41:53 <instant-buildbot> build #370 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/370
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09:54:02 <instant-buildbot> build #455 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/455
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10:30:31 <flo> hello :)
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11:15:34 <Segaja> clokep: ok
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12:41:25 <Mic> Hi!
12:41:33 <Mic> Is there a way to set a quit-message for IRC btw?
12:41:56 <Mic> *a default quit-message
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14:14:27 <instantbot> kemza@seznam.cz set the Resolution field on bug 1239 to INVALID.
14:14:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1239 maj, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, When contact have diacritical mark as first letter, contact are not shown
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14:35:35 <flo> clokep: hello :)
14:36:10 <clokep> Hello flo.
14:36:16 * clokep will be in and out today: serving jury duty.
14:37:36 * flo is looking at the password manager stuff
14:38:04 * clokep assumed they were going to make you do that before Thunderbird. ;)
14:38:41 <flo> bah, being paid to do it isn't a bad thing ;)
14:39:03 <clokep> :) People can stop complaining about plaintext passwords! Yay.
14:39:37 <flo> I'm confident people who love complaining will quickly secure another favorite complaint topic :)
14:40:18 <flo> a patch in bug 102699, cool! :)
14:40:29 <flo> too bad we also need the hiddenWindow hack for the sounds
14:41:23 <clokep> !!! I've been waiting for that bug to be fixed for years.
14:41:38 <flo> it's a bug blocking instantbird ;)
14:42:08 <Mitch> clokep: Plaintext passwords are great. Ask Sony.
14:42:13 <flo> and it seems bug 357725 is also getting fixed ;)
14:43:04 <clokep> I need to teach auto-link that if a bug is over like 50000 it's a Mozilla bug...
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14:43:18 <Mitch> IT'S OVER 9000!!!
14:44:17 <flo> Mitch: you have a pet bug in the 9*** range?
14:45:13 <flo> apparently the older bugs that I'm interested in (if I look at what I'm cc'd to) are 11824, 12460 and 14328 (DNS SRV!)
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14:49:28 <clokep> Mine is apparently 118665, much newer. :P
14:50:23 <clokep> Oh I lied, I have a bunch of thunderbird one's I've voted for < 100k.
14:51:56 <flo> oh, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590996 is still not fixed (and we still have the patch in our own repository)
14:52:20 <flo> it may not be needed any more now that we have changed our windows buildbot slave configuration
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15:01:41 <flo> the password manager interfaces are a mess :(
15:02:34 <flo> http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mozilla/netwerk/base/public/nsIAuthPrompt.idl#42 when reading only the documentation, I wouldn't have expected the behavior with the SAVE_PASSWORD_FOR_SESSION constant to be only throw Cr.NS_ERROR_NOT_IMPLEMENTED
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15:07:27 <clokep> Gonna also kill bug 257 that mean? ;)
15:07:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=257 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Don't necessarily save passwords / add prompt for password
15:07:53 <flo> maybe
15:08:04 <flo> I'm not sure of what I exactly want to do
15:08:20 <clokep> That's actually a blocker for me using it at work I believe.
15:09:00 <flo> really?
15:09:20 <flo> wouldn't saving the passwords in the password manager and having a master password work better for a machine you don't own?
15:09:22 <clokep> Yeah, can't have my password saved.
15:09:42 <clokep> : shrugs: I don't make the policies. ;)
15:10:22 <flo> is anybody going to see the difference if you still need to enter a password to login?
15:10:42 <clokep> No.
15:11:16 <flo> so the policies may not matter then ;)
15:11:34 <clokep> I like my job though. ;)
15:22:10 <flo> do they have a policy on maximizing the efficiency of key loggers? :)
15:22:55 <clokep> They have a policy on not having key loggers. ;)
15:23:05 <flo> seriously?
15:23:21 <clokep> No, probably not. But that would count as "malware" of some sort I'm sure.
15:23:35 <flo> would IE also count then? :)
15:23:59 <clokep> Ah, well. Ironically that's the preferred browser.
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15:51:58 <Mitch> Use IE6 for maximum malware compatibility.
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15:55:38 <flo> clokep: would the "auto-login" feature still make sense for accounts that don't have a password stored in the password manager? That would cause one modal dialog per auto-logged account :(
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15:58:01 <clokep_work> flo: I was thiking that too, perhaps we could put a notification somewhere (on the contact list?)
15:58:09 <clokep_work> That the user can click and log into each account when they have time.
15:58:15 <clokep_work> (Thunderbird just pops up one after another btw.)
15:58:48 <flo> so Thunderbird already pops up one modal dialog per account?
15:59:07 <Mitch> Create a bizarre combination of notification queues with forms.
15:59:18 <flo> I suspect this poor UI is the reason why I've been reluctant to address bug 257
15:59:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=257 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Don't necessarily save passwords / add prompt for password
16:02:36 <clokep_work> flo: Yes, they do.
16:02:44 <clokep_work> I'd suggest some other form of notification. :P
16:03:05 <flo> I would suggest a master password
16:03:38 <flo> hmm, maybe popup the account manager with a password textbox before each connect button
16:07:37 <clokep_work> That works too.
16:07:44 <clokep_work> Master password is a separate UI issue I think.
16:08:31 <flo> clokep_work: are you allowed to store your passwords in the cloud, with something like Firefox Sync? :)
16:08:52 <flo> typing a sync password that would get all the accounts (including their passwords) at once would be nice
16:09:03 <Mitch> Put a master password textbox before the Connect All button. :P
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16:22:22 <clokep_work> flo: No.
16:22:38 <clokep_work> But really that's just a corporate issue. I don't think corporations are our main consumers. ;)
16:22:59 <clokep_work> I think putting the password box next to the connect button for accounts that don't have it saved is a good idea.
16:23:30 <clokep_work> For the master password...when you open the account manager, if there's a master password, just overlay the entire account manager with a deck that asks you for the master password and then "unlocks" the account manager.
16:23:41 <flo> clokep_work: why do they care how you store/remember/enter your passwords for things that aren't corporate accounts
16:23:42 <flo> ?
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16:24:30 <clokep_work> Nooooo. I meant I can't store my password for the Microsoft Office Communicator account. :)
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17:00:22 <flo> clokep_work: that's only one account
17:00:33 <flo> not going to cause a cascade of password prompts
17:30:43 <clokep_work> flo: Yes, I agree. That isn't a big deal.
17:31:11 <flo> I'm trying to decide how we are going to migrate existing passwords
17:31:29 <flo> should we remove them from the preference file?
17:31:53 <flo> (it's basically what we discussed without finding a really good solution in the bug iirc)
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17:41:04 <clokep_work> I think they should be removed, yes.
17:41:31 <flo> that means someone trying a nightly can't go back to the current release
17:41:40 <clokep_work> (The only other thing I think is reasonable is leave them for now, then remove them next version.)
17:45:36 <flo> all the imIAccount.ERROR_MISSING_PASSWORD logic is broken if we become able to prompt for a password :-S
17:47:28 <clokep_work> :-/
17:47:49 <clokep_work> I mean they don't need to be done at the same time, for now it could just force you to store them in the password manager.
17:54:11 <flo> so no password prompt in case it's missing?
17:54:11 <flo> hmm
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18:00:38 <flo> so, I assume when we delete an account we also want to remove its password from the password manager.
18:00:55 <clokep_work> Probably.
18:01:07 <flo> to do that, we need to be able to decrypt the username. So deleting an account will prompt for the master password :-S
18:01:26 <clokep_work> (Unless they've already authenticated for the session, right?)
18:01:38 <flo> sure
18:06:30 <Mook_as> assuming they have a master password set up, just look for accounts that no longer exist the next time it's entered?
18:07:58 <flo> I guess another solution would be to put the username in the httpRealm field instead of the username field, so that it doesn't get encrypted
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19:25:55 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(florian@instantbird .org) for attachment 1125 on bug 309.
19:26:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=309 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Some system messages contain emoticons where they should not.
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20:10:33 <Maniro> I have a couple suggestions for InstantBird that I ran into trying it out today.
20:11:03 <clokep_work> Maniro: Go ahead (or check bugzilla.instantbird.org)
20:11:07 <EionRobb> is file transfers one of them?
20:11:12 <Maniro> no
20:11:42 <EionRobb> it should be ;)
20:12:05 <Maniro> 1) Have a provide feedback option in the Help options - having a feedback dialog boxes for crashes is great but what about other errors or issues? Maybe even have an option to submit errors from the errorlog with feedback would be great too.
20:13:34 <Maniro> 2) The XMPP server I am trying to connect to doesn't have a proper SSL certificate (I think it is from GoDaddy and they didn't install the entire chain) but I couldn't totally disable SSL nor would it give me the option to trust the certificate anyway. It would just give SSL Handshake Failed message over and over
20:14:32 <Maniro> 3) In the properties of the account, I couldn't edit all the settings for the account -> primarily login name and domain I was trying to get to. I had to delete and remake the account. I found that particularly annoying.
20:15:12 <clokep_work> 2. We know that's an issue, we'd like to be able to have it pop up and prompt you. You can totally disable SSL. But it'd be better to install the cert.
20:15:41 <clokep_work> 3. It's a different account, I'm not sure it makes sense to change the server of an account...that implies a new account.
20:15:50 <clokep_work> 1. We've discussed, but no one has written anything for. There might be a bug on file.
20:16:19 <Maniro> for 3, assume I made a typo and just wanted to correct it
20:16:38 <Maniro> it is pretty standard to be able to just edit the details
20:17:17 <clokep_work> : shrugs : Not in most clients I've used.
20:17:27 <clokep_work> I'm not sure we have a bug on that though, it'd be good to file one. :)
20:17:51 <clokep_work> (And the problem with that is the way we store account information I think. :-/)
20:18:22 <Maniro> I was lazy to check bugzilla first, sorry. I am on the way out the door so thought this would be easier
20:18:29 <Maniro> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=429 <- edit username
20:18:32 <instantbot> Bug 429 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, edit username
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20:20:50 <flo> Maniro: the account name or server is *not* a detail
20:21:07 <Maniro> for the SSL one, I didn't find it searching for SSL
20:21:13 <flo> I tend to agree it should be possible to change them (in the case of a typo) until the account has been connected successfully once though
20:21:37 <Maniro> That would be nice, yes
20:22:20 <flo> it's possible to turn off certificate checking from the advanced configuration editor
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20:23:01 <aleth> A possible way to implement that would be in the wizard: don't let the wizard quit (unless cancelled) until a successful connection has been established
20:23:02 <EionRobb> I can edit server names in thunderbird without any issues ;)
20:23:10 <EionRobb> or a 'Test Connection' button?
20:23:32 <Maniro> I got all excited to try InstantBird and was saddened when it wouldn't connect :(
20:23:36 <flo> EionRobb: there's a terrible hack for that
20:23:55 <flo> Maniro: in the preferences window, Advanced->General->Config Editor
20:24:03 <flo> then set purple.ssl.check_certificates to false
20:24:22 <flo> aleth: exactly what I had in mind ;)
20:25:21 <flo> EionRobb: by the way, I don't see how thunderbird server names are relevant in this context. It isn't an IM client (yet).
20:25:22 <aleth> Maniro: and maybe change server for one with a working SSL implementation? #probably_not_helpful
20:25:31 <Maniro> flo: That woks, thanks.
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20:26:01 <Maniro> aleth: I will raise a ticket with the provider but I can't up and switch that easily
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20:26:43 <flo> Maniro: no problem :)
20:27:33 <Mook_as> Maniro: and remember to turn it back on when it's fixed, since you're technically unsafe at the moment :)
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20:29:14 <deOmega1> hi, is it me or is instantbiird,  Tbird and firefox very high  on memory usage lately?
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20:30:07 <Mook_as> pfft, they don't hold a candle to komodo. (wait, I don't think that's a good thing)
20:30:09 <aleth> deOmega1: Nothing out of the ordinary here
20:30:16 <flo> deOmega1: define "very hight"
20:30:27 <flo> *high
20:31:08 <deOmega1> i have ib at like 150mb,  tbird at 150 and firefox at  almost 500
20:31:31 <flo> that sounds reasonable to me
20:31:41 <flo> except if it's 10 minutes after starting them
20:31:44 <aleth> FF memorey usage will depend mainly on how many tabs you have open and what is in them
20:31:58 <deOmega1> ok
20:32:08 <aleth> (and will be lower with more recent versions like Aurora)
20:32:38 <deOmega1> ok thanks.  maybe i go to aurora :)
20:32:41 <aleth> Similarly with IB and the number of conversations
20:32:42 <deOmega1> thank you
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20:32:53 <flo> My Firefox currently takes 1GB (I've less than a hundred tabs though :-S), Instantbird 127MB, and my Thunderbird is dead :(
20:33:32 <aleth> Firefox Preferences -> General -> Don't load tabs until selected will also save you some memory if you are short
20:33:43 <Mook_as> well, did you at least get to murder it yourself?
20:33:52 <deOmega1> wow 1g  on firefox.. but you  keep firefox opened.  I clore fairly often a
20:34:06 <aleth> Keeping it open doesn't make much difference these days
20:34:13 <flo> deOmega1: I keep it open about 60 days. Except if it crashes of course.
20:34:20 <deOmega1> wow
20:34:32 <deOmega1> so u never  turn yoru pc off? it doesnot sleep?
20:34:47 <flo> 60 days is the average time before Mac OS X becomes so unstable/broken that I have to reboot it
20:35:04 <flo> deOmega1: I just close the screen and put the laptop in my backpack when I move...
20:36:34 <deOmega1> man. You know,  I used to wonder why all this need for tabs tools in firefox... but now i see why
20:36:42 <flo> Mook_as: it's quite possible. I probably haven't rebuilt it properly (rebuilt only a few dirs to "save time") after hg updating
20:37:07 <flo> deOmega1: I wrote my own add-on for managing tabs :-D
20:37:17 <flo> purple.ssl.check_certificates
20:37:19 <flo> oops
20:37:23 <flo> https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/autoclose-tabs
20:37:48 <aleth> Sensible :) I used to use bar tab...
20:37:53 <flo> https://addons.mozilla.org/en/firefox/addon/autoclose-tabs/
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20:38:07 <deOmega1> I would have never understood a reason for that before now :)
20:38:36 <clokep_work> aleth: Hashtags work poorly on IRC as # is used for channel names. :P
20:39:24 <aleth> clokep_work: not sure what would constitute "working" in that instance anyway :P
20:40:24 <clokep_work> I got a nice link to some empty chat called probably_not_helpful. ;)
20:41:00 <flo> clokep_work: at least when talking in that chatroom, you have a good excuse for not being helpful :)
20:41:09 <flo> pfff
20:41:15 * flo rebuilds Thunderbird from scratch
20:41:17 <flo> :(
20:42:19 <aleth> clokep_work: Interesting... this must be some novel JS_IRC feature lowly nightly users can't see yet ;)
20:42:30 <clokep_work> aleth: No, it's mibbit. :P
20:44:04 <flo> and now I'm thinking I should consider buying a newer machine... :(
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22:31:13 <flo> pfff, after building for over 100 minutes, it fails with a non sense error :(
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22:55:38 <flo> Good night
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