#instantbird log on 12 27 2011

All times are UTC.

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04:24:42 <clokep> flo: Thanks for pushing that! :)
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15:17:46 <clokep> So nice to have icons again! :)
15:18:48 <clokep> Thanks for figuring that one out!
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17:08:03 <GeekShadow> hello
17:08:12 <GeekShadow> do Instantbird support local network chatting ?
17:08:14 <GeekShadow> like Bonjour
17:08:19 <GeekShadow> or maybe local XMPP ?
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17:56:53 <GeekShadow> flo, ?
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18:03:44 <clokep> GeekShadow: No, there's a bug open on supporting Bonjour.
18:04:04 <GeekShadow> ok
18:04:32 <GeekShadow> clokep, and is there a way to do serverless xmpp ? (it's covered in xep-0174)
18:05:29 <clokep> GeekShadow: Sure, write the patch for it. ;)
18:05:41 <clokep> I believe Bonjour is local XMPP, Idk if that's the same XEP or not though.
18:06:22 <GeekShadow> that's why I was looking for
18:06:25 <GeekShadow> *what
18:07:10 <GeekShadow> I thought Bonjour was local XMPP too, but it's different actually
18:07:41 <clokep> Is it? I thought it was just a way to navigate the network and see what's available. But maybe not, flo knows more information about it then I do.
18:07:54 <clokep> I'd suggest filing a bug about local XMPP if it's something you're interested in.
18:08:31 <clokep> I don't know how difficult it would be to implement in the JavaScript XMPP stuff.
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18:34:28 <flo> GeekShadow: what's the difference between Bonjour and local XMPP?
18:46:34 <GeekShadow> flo, does local xmpp exists ?
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18:47:19 <GeekShadow> from what I experienced, pidgin/gajim are using bonjour, it's not "xmpp"
18:47:36 <flo> how is it "not xmpp"?
18:49:02 <flo> serverless messenging (http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0174.html) is, if I understood correctly, an XMPP specification document for bonjour
18:49:59 <GeekShadow> from what I read Bonjour ≠ XMPP
18:50:19 <GeekShadow> so Bonjour is using XMPP ?
18:50:24 <GeekShadow> I don't quite get it
18:50:56 <clokep> GeekShadow: Where did you read that?
18:51:09 <GeekShadow> on wikipedia
18:51:25 <GeekShadow> I see no reference of XMPP on Bonjour pages
18:56:28 <flo> so you assumed it because you *haven't* read anything it either way?
18:59:00 <GeekShadow> It's just I don't see the connexion... also is there any XMPP client with local chatting ability ?
18:59:18 <GeekShadow> (which obviously do not use Bonjour)
19:00:06 <flo> I don't understand what you mean with "which obviously do not use Bonjour"
19:00:51 <flo> bonjour is the Apple network technology so that computers on the same network can discover and communicate with each other without relying on a server for that.
19:01:14 <flo> the same thing has also been implemented with the names Zeroconfig or avahi
19:03:20 <GeekShadow> ok, but then how do local chatting works ? It's XMPP protocol ? In Pidgin you have to create a "Bonjour" account, and in Gajim it's "Local"
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19:03:55 <flo> yes, it's XMPP
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19:04:24 <flo> the difference is that your roster is more or less "whoever is connected on the same network"
19:05:29 <GeekShadow> flo, so I guess it's a bad UX in pidgin, since you have to choose Bonjour instead of XMPP, but it's still XMPP
19:05:50 <GeekShadow> (like facebook/gmail)
19:06:09 <flo> do you mean "selecting Google talk is a bad UX because it's XMPP"?
19:06:28 <GeekShadow> yep
19:06:47 <clokep> Why?
19:06:56 <clokep> I find that statement ridiculous.
19:07:08 <clokep> The interface should be as easy for users to navigate as possible.
19:07:14 <flo> clokep: so do I. That's why I asked.
19:07:19 <clokep> (And 95% of users don't know what XMPP is.)
19:07:26 <clokep> But they definitely know what Facebook or GTalk are!
19:07:31 <flo> the protocol is clearly an implementation detail. What matters is the network of people you can talk to with the account
19:07:41 <GeekShadow> Why not listing all XMPP providers then ? ;)
19:08:24 <GeekShadow> I know Facebook have specific parameters to work
19:08:40 <flo> GeekShadow: listing public XMPP providers which are likely going to be used by people who have no idea what XMPP is sounds like what we are doing
19:09:33 <GeekShadow> ok nevermind
19:09:55 <GeekShadow> it's just I was looking for local xmpp in Pidgin, but it's branded as "Bonjour"
19:11:11 <clokep> GeekShadow: See bug 1024 or bug 944
19:11:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1024 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, LAN protocol
19:11:15 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=944 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Support for Bonjour
19:11:36 <GeekShadow> clokep, already subscribed to those minutes before ;)
19:11:47 <GeekShadow> maybe you should do like thunderbird for parameters detection based on the mail domain
19:12:24 <clokep> I don't think chat subdomains are as common though.
19:12:32 <GeekShadow> well maybe not a good idea for Microsoft Passport ID...
19:13:12 <flo> isn't that the default XMPP behavior when DNS SRV queries work?
19:13:42 <GeekShadow> I don't know
19:14:27 <GeekShadow> but anyway thanks for clearing me up ;)
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20:13:14 <GeekShadow> anyone having a Logitech device with a LCD screen ? (like G15 keyboard)
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20:47:46 <clokep> flo: For adding a buddy in XMPP, there's a bunch of error cases that can happen when you send a wrong stanza...do we want to cover those in particular or just generally throw an error ("oh god, we couldn't add a buddy! Sorry. :(")
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21:20:34 <flo> clokep: what are these error cases?
21:21:10 <clokep> flo: http://xmpp.org/rfcs/rfc6121.html#roster-add-errors mostly they seem to be if you make the request in correctly.
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21:21:59 <Guido> hello
21:22:23 <clokep> Hello Guido.
21:22:34 <Guido> in the moment i have problems with the FB chat. does anyone know somthing about a problem by FB?
21:22:49 <clokep> Guido: Personally Facebook has been up & down for me all day.
21:23:03 <clokep> But I don't have any official word.
21:23:34 <Guido> is it a server from FB or from IB?
21:24:45 <clokep> What do you mean?
21:25:07 <Guido> i get the message that the server breaks down the conection
21:25:33 <clokep> OK, their servers are probably having issues.
21:26:24 <Guido> i see
21:27:29 <Guido> so there hasn't ben changed somthing by FB. thought perhaps FB don't want to alow it any longer or somthing like that
21:27:35 <clokep> I actually wasn't even able to get on the website earlier. :) So I'm fairly confident they're having issues.
21:27:40 <clokep> Probably all thos ekids home from school. ;)
21:28:59 <Guido> i could enter FB, but was ther only for short
21:28:59 <Guido> yes, that could be
21:29:52 <Guido> i'm conected about 1 second with IB and than kicked off
21:32:06 <Guido> but thats FB ;-)
21:34:01 <clokep> Yup! :(
21:36:47 <Guido> okee, with me tha page from FB works
21:36:47 <Guido> lets see wat tmorrow will bring :-D
21:37:30 <clokep> Yes. :) It'd be nice if Facebook had a status page, but I don't think they do.
21:38:13 <clokep> (Like http://www.google.com/appsstatus or http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-live-status)
21:38:39 <Guido> i think they have about the normel page somthing like sorry, we are working on it, if it compleatly doesn't work :-D
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21:40:39 <Guido> yes, that would begreat
21:40:59 <Guido> it's at least better, than my internet :-D
21:41:37 <flo> clokep: so the errors are internal-server-error, not-allowed, forbidden, bad-request or not-acceptable
21:42:11 <Guido> yes
21:42:41 <clokep> Yes, that seems correct.
21:43:39 <flo> so what would you like to do with them?
21:43:53 <flo> just put something in the error console?
21:44:10 <flo> (in that case we can do something that sounds technical)
21:44:28 <flo> if we have a way to display a user facing message, it should probably be quite generic
21:47:47 <clokep> My question is what you want to do with them. ;)
21:48:14 <clokep> A user facing message could be the same for all, but I wasn't sure if we wanted more technical messages logged for each case or just log the stanza, etc.
21:50:50 <Guido> for me it would be nice to know how long it probaply wil take until it works again
21:50:50 <Guido> so if FB has a problem you can't know it, but if they changed the script etc. than perhaps you can say how long it probaply wil take
21:51:22 <Guido> the actual messages are quite nice, but could perhaps have a bit mor explanation
21:51:48 <flo> clokep: if you are working on it, then *I* don't want to do anything with them ;)
21:51:51 <Guido> for example on a page what the reason is
21:52:21 <clokep> flo: What would you like me to do with them? :P
21:52:46 <clokep> Guido: They don't seem to provide any information about their services ever.
21:52:48 <flo> I'm really not sure
21:52:58 <flo> handling first the non-error case sounds like a good plan
21:53:43 <flo> if you get an error message from the server, putting it in the error console sounds good
21:53:59 <flo> I don't know how we can inform the user that his action failed
21:54:08 <flo> I don't think we currently have something for that in the UI
21:55:34 <Guido> so the server errors can be produced by crashing servers or a new protocol like the funy one from studivz etc.
21:55:34 <Guido> a bit like the shops, whitch look the dumpsters, because they don't want to let you see how much good food they are throuwing away
21:55:34 <Guido> :-S
21:56:39 <Guido> during working there can also be a problem
21:56:58 <Guido> "message is not send, because it's to long"
21:57:26 <clokep> Guido: What do you mean by "or a new protocol like the funy one from studivz etc."?
21:57:36 <clokep> The error is in Facebook, not us. We have no idea why it's happening.
21:58:30 <Guido> if you want to singn in there you have to enter your mailaders, but you have to use somthing else, than the "@"
21:59:24 <clokep> Right, but I think that's because we don't implement one of the XEPs.
22:00:36 <Guido> and if FB would change to this loo\gin it could also cause problems
22:00:51 <clokep> Yes, I guess.
22:02:06 <clokep> But it's not like we're scraping the page to message, we're using an interface that they provide.
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22:30:00 <flo> hmm, I wonder if Instantbird has a good excuse for that crash
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22:36:52 * clokep just found a reference for SED which is slightly better than just reading the ircII code!
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