#instantbird log on 11 10 2011

All times are UTC.

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00:00:40 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1156 filed by jahkae@gmail.com.
00:00:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1156 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Remember  individual window position and size
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00:10:48 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 970 on bug 683.
00:10:50 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
00:13:13 <clokep> Bah. :( Well I got one review granted! :)
00:13:22 <clokep> Sorry you had to unbitrot it.
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00:15:01 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 983 to bug 683.
00:15:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
00:15:46 <clokep> Yes I work there Mook_as.
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00:16:23 <Mook_as> ah. was just interesting because I mouseovered one of your lines.
00:16:36 <Mook_as> heard of them, but never figured out what they do :P
00:16:50 <clokep> That's the point. ;)
00:18:29 <clokep> (Not, but more seriously wikipedia has some information as does the corporate website.)
00:18:51 * clokep is surprised you've heard of it.
00:20:16 <flo> can I r+ and commit the patch in bug 772, or do we (still) want to write an add-on making use of it so that we can be sure it's useful before integrating these changes?
00:20:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772 enh, --, ---, mattdentremont, ASSI, Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts
00:20:50 <clokep> Perhaps you've read The Cuckoo's Egg? ;)
00:21:20 <clokep> flo: r+ and check it in, it'll let anyone work on it when they get a chance (i.e. Mic isn't capable of building anything)
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00:35:32 <flo> clokep: isn't deOmega's bug a semi dupe of bug 1095?
00:35:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095 nor, --, 1.2, florian, RESO FIXED, No notification when the user's nick is mentioned in the twitter timeline
00:35:44 <flo> or is he on nightlies?
00:43:16 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 961 on bug 772.
00:43:18 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772 enh, --, ---, mattdentremont, ASSI, Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts
00:43:41 <clokep> flo: I think he's on nightlies.
00:43:49 <clokep> But I think he wants a window to pop up with the new tweets contents.
00:44:22 <flo> what's the next step for bug 759?
00:44:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Reorganize purplexpcom
00:44:56 <clokep> Did we rename interfaces?
00:45:10 <flo> some (those that changed significantly)
00:45:38 <flo> should we identify all the interfaces that are required for chat/ to work, and move all that into chat/components/public/?
00:45:38 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/f90c2648a35d - Patrick Cloke - Bug 1083 - The copyright year shouldn't be localizable, r=fqueze.
00:45:39 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/6c5abb266d47 - Patrick Cloke - Bug 1121 - No longer possible to double click a tweet to reply to it, r=fqueze.
00:45:40 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/8430992e1544 - aleth - Bug 1124 - Some minor conversation CSS improvements, r=fqueze.
00:45:41 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/966657ce46fd - Florian Quèze - Avoid a JS error while loading an empty account list.
00:45:42 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/ba4e219b3d55 - aleth - Bug 1112 - Only show active nicks in color in participant list, r=fqueze.
00:45:43 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/2db854d92232 - Florian Quèze - Follow up to 40d3eaad9fe6 to actually fix the creation of twitter conversations.
00:45:44 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/d9a296c543d9 - v17al - Bug 772 - Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts, r=fqueze.
00:46:01 <flo> and then mass rename purpleI* -> {im|prpl}I* ?
00:46:39 <clokep> Yes, I think that should be next.
00:46:52 <clokep> (I'll mark all those as fixe if you want to sleep btw.)
00:47:00 <flo> (thanks! :))
00:47:18 <clokep> It's easy now that all my bug links work. :-D
00:47:32 <flo> renaming interfaces that look like they are just exposing libpurple APIs "sounds wrong" to me though :(
00:47:55 <clokep> Should they be redesigned?
00:47:58 <flo> purpleIUserNameSplit? :(
00:48:36 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/search?string=purpleI -> long long list :(
00:49:14 <flo> purpleITooltipInfo?
00:49:17 <clokep> Personally? I want UserNameSplit and ChatRoomFields (and related) to die.
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00:49:31 <Mook_as> you need to upgrade to mxr so you can filter for \.idl$ files with regex interface\s+purpleI :p
00:49:40 <flo> purpleIChatRoomFieldValues
00:49:56 <flo> clokep: so do I.
00:50:06 <flo> But what can we put there instead?
00:50:09 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1083 to FIXED.
00:50:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, RESO FIXED, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
00:50:50 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1121 to FIXED.
00:50:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1121 nor, --, 1.2, clokep, RESO FIXED, No longer possible to double click a tweet to reply to it
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00:51:07 <clokep> Idk. We'll need to look at them.
00:51:35 <clokep> I wonder if UserNameSplit can just be a function that returns an array of strings or something.
00:51:42 <flo> purpleIPref :(
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00:52:14 <flo> IMHO, the whole concept of usernamesplit is wrong
00:52:31 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1124 to FIXED.
00:52:34 <flo> an XMPP server isn't part of the username
00:52:34 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1124 nor, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Some minor conversation CSS improvements
00:52:36 <flo> and the resource even less
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00:53:12 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/components/public/prplIProtocol.idl#124
00:53:12 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1112 to FIXED.
00:53:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1112 nor, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Only show active nicks in color in participant list
00:54:03 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 772 to FIXED.
00:54:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772 enh, --, 1.2, mattdentremont, RESO FIXED, Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts
00:54:09 <Mook_as> I guess it sort-of make sense if you treat each account (err, whatever that includes the resource) as a URI.
00:54:24 <clokep> flo: Right, well the point of a UserNameSplit is to get unique names for each account, right?
00:54:26 <flo> they should probably either have a sensible default value and be hidden with the other proto specific options, or be a proto override
00:54:48 <flo> Mook_as: users know what a URI is?
00:54:59 <Mook_as> flo: oh, no, _not_ for the user at all
00:55:01 <clokep> But they don't really see a usernamesplit either, they see a list of fields.
00:55:06 <Mook_as> just an internal representation of the account it
00:55:11 <Mook_as> s/it/id/
00:55:23 <Mook_as> (the fact that it's exposed, at all, is a bug)
00:55:26 <flo> clokep: except they see the "real" username in the account manager after the account is created...
00:55:39 <clokep> Ah, yes. That's an issue. :-/
00:55:43 <Mook_as> it just needs a good toString() ;)
00:57:28 <EionRobb> keep clear of those bad toString()'s... they're up to no good
00:57:39 <clokep> Bah I think either DND or Hide Auto-Joins is being overly aggressive.
00:58:19 <flo> so, the questions that need to be answered are: 1. Is it OK to just rename these interfaces purpleI->prplI? (do we even want to do it?) 2. Can we design something offering a better UX? Is it worth it? Do we want to do it? 3. Are they close enough to being libpurple code to be GPL'ed and tainting the rest of the code?
00:58:58 <flo> clokep: DND needs an update
00:59:04 <flo> I posted it to AIO
01:00:38 <clokep> Do we want to leave it as purpleI until they're redesigned, at which point we prplI them?
01:01:05 <clokep> Didn't realize DND was experimental and I wouldn't get an update.
01:01:16 <flo> it doesn't have a screenshot :(
01:01:25 <clokep> :-/
01:02:02 <flo> do we plan to redesign them in the next 2 weeks or so?
01:02:37 <clokep> Some of them might be able to, some are more complicated.
01:04:05 <flo> We can probably start by renaming the interfaces that are acceptable
01:04:17 <flo> purpleIConv{ersation,IM,Chat} seem relatively OK
01:04:20 <flo> purpleIMessage too
01:04:45 <flo> purpleIRequestBrowser is entierly our (unfortunate) code added for twitter
01:06:23 <clokep> Yes, I agree.
01:07:48 <clokep> (o_O) I just got an entity error in the account manager.
01:07:51 <clokep> On my debug build.
01:09:50 <flo> which entity was missing?
01:10:45 <clokep> Actually everything is just messed up. blist and account manager are both broken.
01:10:54 <flo> or do we need to escape & characters in error messages in the account manager?
01:11:00 <clokep> They're just pointing to the window, so it's probably the window name?
01:11:18 <flo> what's in the error console?
01:12:24 <clokep> A whole lotta information...then...
01:13:03 <clokep> flo: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1061
01:13:10 <flo> I wonder if it's realistic to move the purpleIProxy* interfaces out of chat/ (back to purple/), and to make a purpleIAccount that inherits from imIAccount and has that additional proxy attribute
01:13:28 <flo> then move the account wizard and manager code that handles libpurple proxy to overlays
01:13:29 <clokep> That would be much nicer I think. :)
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01:16:07 <flo> I wonder if that's improvement, or just a waste of time, because I should rewrite libpurple/proxy.c instead to call mozilla functions
01:16:48 <clokep> Do we sitll want the ability of different accounts to have different proxies btw?
01:17:44 <flo> is it useful?
01:18:00 <clokep> Not to me, but to others maybe. :)
01:18:08 <clokep> Just thinking that Thunderbird allows it I believe. ;)
01:18:19 <flo> really?
01:18:20 <flo> where?
01:18:54 <clokep> Actually maybe I made that up. :(
01:19:54 <clokep> Yes, I lied. :)
01:19:57 <clokep> Never mind!
01:20:12 <flo> the mozilla proxy dialog lets the user set different kinds of proxies (and then selects automatically which one is appropriate for the desired port), and set exceptions (no proxy!) for some hostnames
01:20:53 <clokep> Ah, I see.
01:21:00 <Mook_as> and if you're crazy enough, proxy auto config files written in JS
01:21:02 <clokep> Sounds as complicated in a differentw ay. ;)
01:21:22 <flo> Mook_as: they do synchronous DNS resolutions though :(
01:21:37 <Mook_as> yeah :(
01:21:51 <flo> clokep: it's as complicated as taking into account the proxy environment is
01:21:59 <Mook_as> hmm, I wonder if you can hook up accounts to proxy auto config
01:22:16 <Mook_as> (because if yes, you _can_ just shuttle everything to mozilla and let the user deal)
01:22:34 <flo> the libpurple system just doesn't work, because if you need a different proxy for HTTP (http proxy) and for other random data connections (socks proxy) and your socks proxy doesn't accept HTTP connection, you can't do anything to connect
01:23:12 <clokep> So how do you do the tier_app thing again?
01:23:22 <clokep> |make tier_app| is what I tried.
01:23:55 <flo> Mook_as: the purple_proxy_connect function is promising as a point to start rewriting, as it has both a host and a port parameter! :)
01:23:55 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/proxy.c#2271
01:24:08 <flo> but I'm worried for what happens after the connection has been initiated
01:24:31 <flo> as most libpurple plugin code expects (if I understood correctly) to read() and write() on a raw file descriptor
01:24:46 <flo> clokep: that should work
01:24:51 <flo> you need to do it in the objdir though
01:24:58 * Mook_as reads http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/proxy.h#238
01:25:12 topic changed by clokep to ""
01:25:19 <clokep> flo: That did it. :) Thank you!
01:25:52 <flo> Mook_as: "it is used for establishing any outgoing TCP connection, whether through a proxy or not." looks super promising
01:26:55 <clokep> flo: building tier_app fixed my issues so I must have not had the locales get built at some point for some reason.
01:27:15 <flo> or forgot -purgecaches maybe?
01:27:24 <clokep> Maybe. It was a clean build.
01:27:25 <Mook_as> yeah, the callback basically takes a fd as the second arg (named "source" for some reason)
01:27:28 <flo> anyway, glad it works now :)
01:27:33 <clokep> Yes, thanks!
01:27:39 <clokep> Gonna go fix up my twitter patch. ;)
01:31:20 <flo> Mook_as: so if I'm starting to think "maybe we could use some preprocessor magic to rewrite all the read/write call to call one of our functions instead", am I crazy? ;)
01:32:43 <Mook_as> looks like everybody just passes it to purple_input_add ?
01:32:57 <Mook_as> ah, no, they also keep it around :|
01:33:48 * Mook_as wonders if you could provide your own custom read()/write() impl
01:33:56 <Mook_as> (via fiddling with the linker)
01:33:59 <flo> purple_input_add goes back to our purpleSocket XPCOM code that puts the socket fd into nsSocketTransportService to watch the socket off the main thread
01:34:21 <flo> we also need a custom close
01:34:22 <Mook_as> yeah, and at some points they also call write(fd) directly anyway
01:34:28 <flo> why with the linker and not the preprocessor?
01:34:39 <Mook_as> because foo->read() != read()
01:34:47 <flo> it's already done with the preprocessor anyway
01:34:55 <flo> foo->read() doesn't compile on windows :-D
01:35:09 <Mook_as> hah. whatever you want, then :p
01:35:15 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/win32/libc_interface.h#110
01:35:34 <Mook_as> it's just that I've learned to hate this sort of preprocessor fudging.
01:35:40 <Mook_as> (partly from libmozalloc)
01:36:12 <flo> it's obviously horrible hacks ;)
01:37:03 <flo> but I'm even more scared of linker hacks, as linker error messages are rarely easy to understand when it's not just "undefined reference to <name of a function you forgot to implement>"
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01:43:14 <flo> Good night :)
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01:53:10 topic changed by clokep to ""
02:05:57 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 984 to bug 683.
02:05:58 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 984 on bug 683.
02:05:59 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
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02:36:22 topic changed by clokep to "Ask questions about Instantbird (http://www.instantbird.com) here|Get Instantbird 1.1 while it's hot! :) |News: http://blog.instantbird.org/ |Nightlies: http://nightly.instantbird.im/ (testing purpose only) |IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/ |Pastebin: http://pastebin.instantbird.org/"
02:37:20 <clokep> Hmmm...I apparently cleared the topic at some point, but I thought if you change it to an empty string it just keeps it as is.
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02:38:03 * clokep wonders if esc would cancel editing the topic.
02:38:13 <clokep> Ah, it does. :)
02:46:18 <clokep> So I'm trying to implement bug 701 as an extension, but the statusType isn't always defined. :-/
02:46:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=701 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Sort buddies by status
02:46:50 <clokep> (Also the way I'm doing it now isn't restartless, but I'm not sure it's possible when messing w/ XUL in this way.)
02:47:11 <clokep> Anyway, it's likek half working on my debug build, obviously can't try on my real profile yet until the nightly updates. :)
02:47:16 <clokep> I can post the code at some point if people want.
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09:13:08 <MicTest> Hi
09:13:23 <MicTest> Oops, wrong profile :D
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09:19:43 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1157 filed by karavokiris@yahoo.com.
09:19:45 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1157 cri, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, crashes at startup
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09:34:30 <Mic> flo: it wasn't a brand new profile in the sense that I just created it. It had no account and no nothing nevertheless.
09:37:27 <Mic> I receive an error when connecting my ICQ account: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1063
09:37:34 <Mic> If it persists, I'll file a bug
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09:41:37 <flo> hello :)
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09:45:30 <flo> I've no idea of what "twitter sometimes shows signs of overload and is ready to crash" could possibly mean :-D
09:45:58 * Mic found two bugs, has put a char over them and needs someone to swat them.
09:47:32 <Mic> That was a "jar", of course :D
09:47:52 <aleth> hey, the inactive nicks landed :)
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09:49:20 <flo> aleth: yes :)
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09:49:44 <flo> it looks nice :)
09:50:36 <flo> I'm wondering if I/we shouldn't change the theming of the participant list to look more like the lists in the contacts window
09:51:06 <aleth> Do you mean the colour of selections?
09:51:14 <flo> so on mac that would be: put a white background, and theme the "Participants: N" header like the "Conversations on hold" and "Contacts" headers
09:51:36 <flo> no, they seem ok now :)
09:51:44 <aleth> Here on Linux that's already pretty much the way it looks
09:52:07 <aleth> (White background unless your theme has chosen different, and the headers are not that different either)
09:52:21 <flo> on mac they are completely different
09:52:59 <aleth> That's because of the mac-specific theming - I remember being surprised when you showed me a screenshot
09:53:08 <flo> yeah :)
09:54:15 <aleth> Sorry about those incorrect diff files btw - probably due to me deleting parts of the diff because there were so many overlapping patches on the same files going on
09:54:36 <flo> by the way, can you reproduce this bug on Linux: 1. select the contacts window. 2. click on a nick in the participants list. Observed behavior: the conv window gets focused, the clicked nick gets selected, its line turns blue, then immediately after turns grey
09:54:49 <flo> so it "flashes blue" for a fraction of second, which is ugly
09:56:04 <flo> (it turns grey because when a conv window is focused, we focus the textbox automatically)
09:56:09 <aleth> Hmm, no, I don't see that. Unless you mean the slight difference between the background color of the selected bar with and without focus
09:56:26 <aleth> Which might be a bigger difference on Mac
09:56:58 <flo> aleth: yes, the background color of the selected nick is blue when the list is focused, and gray when it's not
09:57:23 <aleth> Aha, I see why now you mention it. It's because the textbox is not automatically focused on Linux.
09:57:33 <flo> uh?
09:57:46 <aleth> I.e. If I click on a nick to focus the conv window, the focus stays with the listbox
09:57:55 <instantbot> New purplexpcom - General bug 1158 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
09:57:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1158 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Alias changes not taking effect until after a restart
09:58:20 <flo> it may be yet another click=mousedown vs click=mouseup difference :-/
09:58:35 <flo> if you focus the conv window by clicking on a message, is the textbox focused?
09:58:38 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1159 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
09:58:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1159 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Follow-up to bug 1112: names not matched when alias is set
09:58:47 <aleth> Yes
09:58:57 <aleth> (good thing too)
09:59:41 <aleth> I had assumed focus staying with the listbox was intentional so you could use the initial letter to jump around a long nicklist
10:00:43 <flo> aleth: on Mac the focus stays in the listbox if the window was already focused when you click on a nick
10:04:03 <flo> Mic: shouldn't we just get rid of that account alias (mis)"feature" and use the display name set from the top of the contacts window instead?
10:05:37 <flo> or if we keep the account aliases, use it for places where there is a list of accounts (join chat and add buddy dialogs, ...)
10:07:28 <Mic> We discussed this before iirc and the idea was to do the latter
10:07:36 <Mic> Let me try to find the log
10:10:56 <Mic> Ah, there is bug 468 ?
10:11:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=468 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Introduce an "account display name"
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10:36:15 <Mic> aleth: the inactive participants are great :)
10:36:44 <aleth> glad you like them :)
10:37:57 * flo thinks the active participants are more interesting (in what they say)
10:38:01 <aleth> Now like you said it needs the "other half" of eventually setting active ones back to inactive
10:53:03 <flo> maybe do that once we remove old messages from the conversation view? :)
10:53:58 <flo> wouldn't it be nice when scrolling back in the history to have the nick list change automatically to reflect who was there at the time? :)
10:53:59 <aleth> Yes, it would have to go together with that
10:54:05 <aleth> and the logging 
10:54:11 <aleth> Oh, that's a great idea :)
10:54:46 <flo> we obviously don't have enough informations (currently) in the logs for that though
10:54:50 <aleth> Much cleaner than a hard timeout
10:55:07 <Mic> Ah, the logger .. :S
10:56:01 <Mic> I haven't cleaned the default values from the message objects yet. (i.e. it's just json-ifying what is there)
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11:10:59 <flo> clokep: shouldn't the "copy link to tweet" action be available even when the account isn't connected?
11:11:02 <flo> clokep: hello :)
11:11:16 <clokep> That was fast...
11:11:20 <clokep> Is it not, right now?
11:11:23 <flo> (I thought I was putting that in the log, not that you were going to enter the room at the second I pressed enter :))
11:11:59 <flo> clokep: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/twitter/twitter.js#68
11:13:34 <clokep> flo: I see, yes you shuld be able to do that while disconnected.
11:15:34 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 984 on bug 683.
11:15:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
11:15:51 <clokep> Am I closer this time at least? :P
11:16:42 <flo> you have completely ignored at least one of the previous review comment.
11:16:47 <flo> so... I'm not really sure ;)
11:17:43 <clokep> Bah I did forget about that. :( Sorry. :-[
11:18:32 <flo> you also forgot twice in a row to fully reread the review comment before attaching the new iteration ;)
11:19:16 <clokep> I re-read it, I just asssumed that that block of code corresponded to another comment without reading the comment. :P
11:19:28 <flo> lol
11:19:53 <flo> "I re-read it [...] without reading the comment. :P" sounds like a terrible excuse to me :-P
11:19:56 <clokep> (Not that I'm complaining, but I had trouble since some things were fixed already in your unbitrotted patch, so I kept going to do things and saw they were fixed already!)
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11:20:33 <clokep> Yay for crashing during my update. :P
11:20:41 <flo> boo :(
11:20:43 <flo> crash report?
11:21:28 <flo> clokep: you left the room with a correct quit message though? Was this a shutdown crash after disconnecting cleanly?
11:21:54 <clokep> flo: Yes a shutdown crash.
11:21:58 <clokep> I've gotten a bunch of them.
11:22:23 <flo> http://crash-stats.instantbird.com/report/list?product=Instantbird&query_search=signature&query_type=exact&query=&date=&range_value=1&range_unit=weeks&process_type=all&plugin_field=&plugin_query_type=&plugin_query=&do_query=1&signature=purple_blist_node_set_ui_data ? :)
11:22:53 <clokep> Yes, those sounds like it.
11:23:01 <flo> you crashed 3 times today?
11:23:21 <clokep> Well two were last night, no?
11:23:31 <clokep> (Today for you?)
11:23:37 <flo> I'm still not used to seeing my message in red :-S
11:23:47 <flo> I keep reading them as if someone as said something new
11:24:01 <flo> clokep: yeah, I meant "today, French time"
11:24:08 <Mic> flo: same for me
11:24:20 <clokep> flo: Yes, those are all me (pretty much check the extensions, if it has js-irc it's me. :P)
11:24:42 <Mic> The indicator at the bubble (I'm using the alternating bubble style) doesn't help either :(
11:24:48 <flo> clokep: I knew at least 2 of those were you, + they are all with exactly the same OS version ;)
11:25:14 <flo> Mic: that bubble indicator is the only visible difference
11:25:23 <flo> and yes, it doesn't help me :(
11:26:14 <clokep> You can blame for me that change btw. ;)
11:26:19 <flo> clokep: do you have an add-on that could be keeping a reference to a purpleAccountBuddy instance after libpurple is uninitialized?
11:26:50 <flo> (that should not crash anyway)
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11:26:57 <flo> (but it would be nice to have steps to reproduce :))
11:27:11 <clokep> Is it possible it's one of the protocol add-ons I have?
11:28:06 <flo> I don't think your js-irc code plays with libpurple account buddies :)
11:28:19 <flo> and it would be... strange for an override to have to touch buddies directly
11:28:59 <flo> and if it's something in the core, I'm surprised that it happens so frequently for you, yet nobody else is crashing there
11:29:11 <clokep> Right.
11:29:18 <clokep> I'll disable them for now since theyd on't work anyway. ;)
11:30:48 <flo> pfff, how is it possible that this user is on Mac OS X 10.7.1 (brand new!) and still crashing in a netsoul crash that was fixed soon after 0.2 http://crash-stats.instantbird.com/report/list?product=Instantbird&query_search=signature&query_type=exact&query=&date=&range_value=1&range_unit=weeks&process_type=all&plugin_field=&plugin_query_type=&plugin_query=&do_query=1&signature=libsystem_c.dylib%400x4e33d
11:31:07 <flo> come on man, update please :-D
11:31:40 <clokep> Is there an email address? :P
11:32:29 <flo> I don't know
11:32:43 <flo> a netsoul login could also help :-D
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11:38:21 <clokep> Push major updates of 0.2 to 1.1? ;)
11:39:17 <flo> don't we already do that?
11:39:43 * flo feels an add-on to change one's nick color coming
11:41:38 <clokep> We could also roll back the change that I had suggested to aleth.
11:41:48 <clokep> I think I'd like to try this for a couple days first though. :)
11:42:46 <flo> I think the change is right, but my visual memory has been trained for years to see my messages in blue
11:43:07 <flo> + we have the bad luck of having Mi c, you, alet h and me in similar red/pink looking colors
11:43:15 <aleth> Yes, it's disconcerting at first isn't it
11:43:43 <aleth> I was also surprised nobody had ever noticed previously their nick in the nicklist was in the 'wrong' color
11:44:01 <aleth> Btw all the add-ons I have installed still seem to work :)
11:44:07 <flo> aleth: it had been mentioned several times
11:44:15 <aleth> (Apart from Colorize, but I don't think that ever worked)
11:44:42 <flo> it's broken? :-O
11:44:48 <clokep> flo: I feel like the algorithm we use for colors heavily favors red based colors sometimes...
11:45:07 <clokep> flo: It hasn't worked for me for ages. I told you a few times but never had any errors or anything (or had time to debug it).
11:45:16 <flo> well, now that most nicks are grey it's hard to tell, but I don't think so.
11:45:24 <aleth> clokep: Doesn't it depend a lot on your initial letter being high up in the alphabet?
11:45:41 <aleth> i.e. wait until Wolfeh shows up ;)
11:45:54 <clokep> aleth: Mic is not high up in the alphabet. ;)
11:45:56 <Wolfeh> wahee!
11:46:14 <clokep> I believe it was designed for adjacent users to have different colors and (as flo said) we'ree just unlucky.
11:46:18 <clokep> Also instantbot is green. :)
11:46:23 <aleth> :)
11:46:25 <flo> micah g is very close to Mic and isn't red
11:46:34 <Wolfeh> im blue
11:46:44 <flo> Wolfeh: we can see that :)
11:46:56 <Wolfeh> :D
11:46:59 <flo> I think douglaswt h isn't red either
11:47:03 <clokep> Perhaps we should assign them based on who's talking. ;)
11:47:34 <aleth> It's more important that they are consistent across sessions, which they are right now 
11:47:42 <flo> I wanted the algorithm to be deterministic, so that you don't have to retrain your visual memory everyday or on each computer
11:48:26 <flo> hmm, we both said the exact same thing with surprisingly completely different words :)
11:48:52 <clokep> I agree. :)
11:49:07 <clokep> I was mostly kidding, but it could be useful in certain situations (i.e. for an add-on to do.)
11:49:47 <aleth> The one niggle right now is that outgoing messages are not the same color in all tabs
11:50:14 <flo> I think an add-on to change colors for some specific nicks was discussed at some points (but never actually implemented). This would let the user manually avoid the cases of "bad luck on this channel"
11:50:14 <aleth> But I'm not sure anymore it's a huge problem
11:51:10 <flo> by the way, I don't even remember why that change was related to graying out inactive nicks in the participant list
11:52:39 <aleth> It's not, apart from that the graying out makes active nicks more visible
11:52:46 <aleth> So suddenly you notice more
11:53:55 <aleth> Or did you mean why the change was introduced? That was because otherwise the user's nick never goes active ;)
11:54:25 <flo> ah, ok
11:54:28 <aleth> i.e. you have to assign it _some_ colour
11:54:52 <flo> well, apparently there's still some problem with that (see bug 1159)
11:54:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1159 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Follow-up to bug 1112: names not matched when alias is set
11:55:08 <aleth> yay, bugs... that was quick :(
11:56:02 <flo> that change also has the problem that the color variants (at least in bubbles) are now pointless in MUCs
11:56:22 <aleth> flo: Yes, that's what I was referring to above (inconsistent across tabs)
11:56:26 <Wolfeh> hehe names not match when alias is set, reminds me of alias ls -> dir on a tux machine, ls does not match dir :P
11:56:35 <aleth> But noone seemed to be able to tell me how to get at that color
11:56:49 <Mic> Just a random question: would it be worth to compile a list of webservices (forums, etherpad,..) that comes with chat and see if we can integrate somewhere?
11:57:03 <flo> aleth: I told you several times that "that color" doesn't exist.
11:57:14 <aleth> flo: I know ;)
11:57:26 <flo> so why do you keep mentioning "getting that color"
11:57:33 <flo> it doesn't exist! :-P
11:57:43 <clokep> Mic: Possibly, an "ideas for protocols" type thing?
11:57:44 <aleth> OK, bad phrasing
11:57:45 <Mic> "if we can integrate" should mean: we help them to integrate a protocol plugin with us
11:58:00 <clokep> Bye!
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11:58:12 <Mic> bbl, lunch
11:58:19 <flo> yeah, away for lunch too!
11:58:53 <aleth> flo: Though in fact what you would need is a way for the message style to tell IB what the chosen outgoing colour is, so I don't think my way of putting it is too far off
11:59:40 <aleth> It does on the screen ;) That's all I meant.
12:00:27 <Wolfeh> bling bling bling we have a winner, capslock heros to the rescue :)
12:01:38 <Wolfeh> right, half hour to finish my first addon for ib, brb
12:02:19 <aleth> We are not actually disagreeing about anything I think, it's just a matter of perspective (code vs user). Of course the colour doesn't exist, otherwise we wouldn't have the problem (if it is one)
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12:08:23 <aleth> Can confirm 1158...
12:08:35 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2a1pre)
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12:09:14 <aleth> Hmm
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12:23:08 <Wolfeh> when testing an addon, how to provide some debugging for it?
12:25:32 <aleth> Wolfeh: There are some tips here https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Setting_up_extension_development_environment
12:25:50 <Mic> Wolfeh: you can include Services.jsm and use Services.console.logStringMessage(aString)
12:26:31 <aleth> Or set an about:config entry and use dump()
12:26:31 <Mic> .. or Components.utils.reportError() to write an error to the error console.
12:26:44 <Mic> aleth: does this work? I didn't know that
12:27:05 <aleth> Mic: It writes to the console, not the error console
12:28:28 <Mic> Ah, ok. I guess my OS isn't 1980ist enough for that.
12:28:40 <aleth> lol
12:28:40 <Mic> :P
12:29:42 <Mic> At least I know when I'm trolling ;)
12:29:52 <aleth> Re bug 1159, if my diagnosis is correct, JS_IRC might already fix that 
12:29:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1159 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Follow-up to bug 1112: names not matched when alias is set
12:30:29 <aleth> (depending on how clokep implemented aliases)
12:35:32 <Wolfeh> and where's the error console?
12:35:41 <Wolfeh> dom inspector thingy?
12:35:50 <Mic> Tools -> Error Console (CTRL-SHIFT-J)
12:35:59 <Wolfeh> ah :D
12:36:14 <aleth> DOM Inspector is an add-on
12:36:19 <Mic> We also have DOMi on the add-ons page
12:36:39 <Mic> In case you need to look at something (a pity that Chrome Bug stopped to work .. I really started to like it!)
12:36:45 <Wolfeh> yeah, i maybe could have used that to debug addons
12:37:25 <Wolfeh> but the error console seems more useable to do that
12:37:57 <aleth> Well, it depends what the problem is...
12:38:13 <Wolfeh> domi is more for themes i guess
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13:00:06 <flo> Wolfeh: I didn't use capslock. Just shouting with the shift key :-D
13:00:18 <Wolfeh> all the same :P
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13:21:46 <flo> https://wiki.mozilla.org/images/3/35/Mozcamp_2011_banner.png lots of chat bubbles on that logo :)
13:23:09 <aleth> :D
13:23:29 <aleth> you can steal it for your slides :)
13:24:19 <aleth> btw I noticed the other day the (long and detailed) "how to use mozilla IRC servers" page does not mention IB
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13:26:13 <clokep_work> aleth: Why would JS-IRC affect that bug at all? Aliases aren't used in chats by design AFAIK.
13:27:10 <aleth> clokep_work: Because as far as I can tell, getParticipants() is implemented by the protocol?
13:28:17 <aleth> If aliases are not to be used in chats then I don't understand the bug, i.e. why they are there in IRC options in the first place?
13:30:04 <flo> aleth: I've suggested at least twice here that someone should either edit the page to add ib or contact the author about it
13:30:49 <aleth> flo: Oh, I didn't know that. Only stumbled over that page by accident two days ago, and it seemed semi-internal
13:30:57 <clokep_work> aleth: Is it the IRC alias you're talking about or the overall alias you can set on the buddy list?
13:31:46 <aleth> The IRC alias (at least that's how I understand the bug). The current behaviour is that the IRC alias is displayed in the chat bubble but not in the nicklist. The mismatch causes the bug.
13:32:04 <aleth> One or the other should be changed, I am not sure which
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13:35:50 <aleth> flo: I should add that the first and last time I tried to modify a mozilla wiki page, the change was immediately reverted as I was not in the group of people who were allowed to modify that page. This was entirely legitimate, but it does mean as an outsider you don't think you should edit without permission
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13:36:23 <flo> aleth: you can still email the author
13:36:33 <flo> (if you care about this page :))
13:36:38 <flo> or ping him on IRC
13:40:18 <aleth> flo: Do you think it is worth it? (I mentioned it merely as an example for what you were saying the other day, that mozillians as a whole were not aware of IB's existance)
13:40:32 <flo> yes
13:40:49 <flo> anything we can do to avoid mozillians recommanding others to use Chatzilla is worth it :-D
13:46:34 <aleth> oh yeah, it does recommend Chatzilla :(
13:48:36 <flo> of course it does
13:50:55 <aleth> I guess its' a fair enough option, as a FF add-on...
14:04:05 <flo> yeah, it's a fair option. It's just better if it's not presented as the only mozilla option :)
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14:40:17 <flo> http://queze.net/goinfre/fosdem11-slides/nightly2.png probably needs an update if I still want to have it in the slides
14:44:16 <flo> http://queze.net/goinfre/fosdem11-slides/update1.png is too old too :(
14:49:36 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm added attachment 985 to bug 1128.
14:49:37 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 985 on bug 1128.
14:49:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1128 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, NEW, Contact list CSS inheritance cleanup
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15:11:24 <flo> in my twitter timeline everybody seems to be green :-/
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15:49:28 <aleth> green? mine are mainly purplish ;)
15:54:45 <flo> I would prefer if GIMP could avoid poping up a dialog with at least a dozen checkboxes for options I don't understand of details of the PNG format
15:55:03 <flo> please, just save the file with the same options as the file I opened and edited, and don't ask! :)
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16:01:13 <clokep_work> flo: We don't take into account the @ for Twitter when generating colors I hope?
16:01:33 <flo> do you see a @ in the participant list?
16:03:05 <clokep_work> I wasn't sure where we get the name from. :)
16:06:28 <flo> I'm not even sure the @ would change the result
16:06:41 <Wolfeh> flo: install my gimpserv killer addon :P
16:07:04 <flo> IIRC we take into account the first [a-zA-Z0-9]+ part
16:07:29 <Wolfeh> gotta run bye
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16:09:25 <clokep_work> Ah, that does sound right. :)
16:09:41 <aleth> The rainbow of colours usually looks good I think
16:11:13 <flo> aleth: it looks gray today ;)
16:12:18 <aleth> :^)
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16:32:04 <flo> and now GIMP popups a large error message "dialog" with 3 non sense error messages, followed by "Too many error messages, messages will be redirected to stderr"!
16:34:09 <clokep_work> flo: Did you see http://twitter.com/SamWilkinson/status/134632337311940608?iid=am-150023031913209338257294053&nid=4+status_timestamp&uid=402402174
16:34:34 <flo> yeah...
16:36:17 <flo> at the same time the network "admins" here were busy disconnecting the network from the internet by rebooting several times in a row the DSL modem because "there was no internet" (but I was connected... I think "no internet" means "I selected a sucky DNS server")
16:36:19 <clokep_work> Sounds more like a connection or server issue.
16:36:53 <flo> sure, the user changes something totally unrelated (like rebooting the modem), it (the DNS server) works again, and the user concludes something stupid
16:37:24 <flo> and it's impossible to explain that it was unrelated, because they just proved it by fact
16:38:39 <clokep_work> Yes. :(
16:41:25 <flo> like my friend returning to WLM after having used Instantbird for a while, because using Instantbird destroyed her modem during a stormy evening ;)
16:43:58 <clokep_work> It sounds like a liekly cause. :P
16:44:47 <aleth> It was probably libpurple :P
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16:50:08 <flo> the worst thing is when you know those people very well and know they are not just stupid individuals :(
16:50:23 <clokep_work> Yes. :-/
16:50:55 <clokep_work> I've finally convinced most of my friends who use it to let me troubleshoot their issue first. Although I always feel bad of "live with it until next release"
16:51:13 <clokep_work> I try to give them some priority though, make them feel some ownership if we have bugs. :)
16:51:31 <clokep_work> I'll reply to that guy on twitter later telling him to try again and it was probably a network issue.
16:51:45 <aleth> It's just correlation vs causation really... a known trap when you don't know enough about something
16:52:16 <flo> when he said "Perfect - just used an older version of Instantbird. Everything is right with the world.", I first thought it meant the problem was BECAUSE he was using an old version
16:52:34 <flo> aleth: exactly.
16:52:47 <aleth> Is it conceivable he had a SSL issue and did not notice the error message?
16:52:49 <flo> but it's upsetting when you do know and tell them and they won't believe you anyway
16:52:56 <aleth> Yes
16:53:08 <flo> that's possible, although I don't think an SSL issue would be fatal on facebook
16:53:33 <flo> he may also have had a coworker with a bad DNS server, and random interruptions of his internet connection because of that ;)
16:57:13 <flo> there doesn't seem to be a big difference between http://www.instantbird.com/press/screenshots/0.2-windows-screenshot-homepage-big.png and http://www.instantbird.com/press/screenshots/1.0-winaero-screenshot-homepage-big.png (even though I took the aero version for 1.0)
16:57:32 <flo> and I'm not sure there's even a single visible difference between 1.0 and 1.1)
16:58:18 <aleth> I dunno, it does look like it had a subtle polish
16:58:38 <aleth> The changes to 1.1 are in the aero buddy list
16:58:51 <clokep_work> flo: The changes to 1.1 is the list of chat rooms in the contact list. ;)
16:58:55 <aleth> (I remember because I did the Linux version of that)
16:59:26 <flo> we haven't updated the screenshots on ib.com anyway :-D
16:59:48 <aleth> You only notice when there are conversations on hold anyway :P
17:00:34 <clokep_work> Yes. :P I usually have ~20 of those.
17:02:19 <flo> do you still need vertical tabs then?
17:03:08 <clokep_work> Without vertical tabs, you can only see 3 or 4 conversations at a time, I usually still have a handful in my window active.
17:03:30 <clokep_work> (I usually talk to ~3 people always + #instantbird + usually #maildev + a couple randoms)
17:04:15 <flo> I usually have ~5 tabs in my conv window
17:04:25 <flo> when there's more, I start closing/putting on hold stuff
17:04:50 <flo> I guess at some point I'll need an add-on to do that automatically, like on Firefox :)
17:05:14 <clokep_work> If I had that I could probably do without Vertical Tabs.
17:05:23 <clokep_work> (Although I kind of like them Vertical anyway. :P I do the same in Fx.)
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17:05:54 <aleth> It's the beauty of the add-on system that you can have lots of tiny add-ons implementing individual features
17:05:57 <flo> it's a rather good thing that you like your add-on anyway :)
17:06:22 <clokep_work> If I stopped using it, I'd stop maintaining it...;)
17:06:46 <flo> you could have friends using/depending on it ;)
17:07:06 <clokep_work> I think the only person I know who uses it is deOmega.
17:08:26 <clokep_work> Although there's apparently another 148. :P
17:09:08 <clokep_work> Did we release on Oct 19th or so?
17:09:10 <aleth> Hey, that's 1/10 of the users :P
17:09:11 <clokep_work> I have a huge spike in users...
17:09:45 <flo> Oct 18th
17:09:57 <clokep_work> That would do it. ;)
17:10:15 <flo> more users checking for updates when updating the application maybe
17:10:29 <clokep_work> Maybe.
17:10:35 <clokep_work> It leveled off to what it was before though https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/statistics/addon/244/
17:10:47 <flo> like http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/stats/
17:13:01 <flo> it matches pretty well around the time of the 1.0 release too :)
17:13:15 <clokep_work> Yup!
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17:15:52 <igorko> hi
17:17:09 * igorko trololols
17:17:15 <igorko> btw
17:17:46 * igorko should post the post in separate post :D
17:17:58 <igorko> i mean /me should post the post in separate post :D
17:18:09 <igorko> is this bug reported?
17:18:22 <clokep_work> What?
17:18:30 <igorko> use /me
17:18:37 <clokep_work> ...
17:18:52 <igorko> clokep_work will be displayed like you typed it
17:19:03 <clokep_work> It's italic.
17:19:07 <igorko> but it should be separate quote\
17:19:25 <igorko> i'm using default message theme and it looks like
17:19:32 <clokep_work> You mean a separate bubble/
17:19:38 <igorko> yep
17:19:38 <clokep_work> Why? It's still from the same person...
17:19:41 <igorko> bubble )
17:19:54 <igorko> but it breaks the idea of /me
17:20:03 <igorko> it should be says from third person
17:20:09 <igorko> sayed*
17:20:42 <clokep_work> /me corresponds to an action...
17:20:54 <clokep_work> Idk if it's really a third person...
17:20:59 <aleth> igorko: You would prefer it displayed as a system message?
17:21:43 <igorko> clokep_work
17:21:43 <igorko> *** clokep_work corresponds to an action...
17:21:49 <igorko> :(
17:22:17 <igorko> aleth: don't have system messages qtm so don't know how it looks
17:22:21 <igorko> atm*
17:22:35 <igorko> just didn't notice
17:22:45 <clokep_work> igorko: It's just the styling different clients use...
17:22:50 <clokep_work> It might even be part of the message style.
17:25:00 <igorko> empathy adds it as separate message
17:25:02 <igorko> :)
17:25:09 <clokep_work> flo: Who owns that IRC page / did aleth contact them yet?
17:25:09 <igorko> it also uses bubbles...
17:25:12 <clokep_work> igorko: Then file a bug.
17:26:22 <flo> clokep_work: if we are talking about the same page, lsblakk
17:26:23 <aleth> clokep_work: afai can tell it's lsblakk, who is not online atm
17:26:23 <igorko> clokep_work: web IRC client , attached to sumwars site also uses separate message :p
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17:27:11 <clokep_work> OK, I just don't want to duplicate effort. We should also get #instantbird listed under https://wiki.mozilla.org/IRC#Commonly_Used_Mozilla_IRC_Channels if we can.
17:27:20 <clokep_work> igorko: What?
17:27:35 <clokep_work> Naming what other clients do, doesn't mean it's necessarily the "right" thing to do.
17:27:38 <igorko> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=sumwars
17:27:52 <igorko> do you think it's wrong?
17:28:00 <igorko> i think it's good
17:28:12 <igorko> to add separate message
17:28:53 <flo> I don't understand what you dislike in our current behavior
17:28:54 <clokep_work> Personally I do not want a separate message bubble for it, they're meant to combine messages from the same user to avoid duplicating information.
17:31:03 <clokep_work> lsblakk hasn't been on in a day and 14 minutes or something apparently. ;)
17:32:11 <flo> probably working from california ;)
17:32:26 <flo> s/California/west coast/
17:43:00 <clokep_work> Yup yup.
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17:48:02 <Mook_as> whoever Linostar was managed to add a link to the tunisia channel, so that page might not be protected.
17:48:46 <Mook_as> (.... but maybe I'm thinking of the wrong page)
17:48:51 <clokep_work> Whether it's technically possible to or not I just don't wanna piss people off. :P
17:51:13 <flo> especially if we want these specific people to advocate for us in the future ;)
17:52:25 <clokep_work> Yes. :)
17:52:41 * clokep_work could use a buddy pounce right now. ;)
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18:14:41 <clokep_work> Is MozCamp this weekend?
18:17:42 <flo> yes
18:17:56 <flo> I'll be flying to Berlin tomorrow afternoon
18:22:05 <clokep_work> They should stream this stuff. ;)
18:24:11 <flo> not really
18:24:15 <flo> well, maybe the keynotes
18:24:37 <flo> but the point is more to meet people in real life and to have contributors who never see themselves feel connected to each other
18:27:08 <flo> the first few slides are at http://queze.net/goinfre/slides-moz-camp2011/
18:27:15 <flo> I'll try to finish that this evening :)
18:27:16 <clokep_work> Right.
18:28:11 <flo> I've never looked at the video of my first Mozilla presentation
18:28:23 <clokep_work> Am I allowed to comment on parts of it / ask questions?
18:28:24 <clokep_work> :P
18:28:34 <flo> it was in french (http://mozilla.queze.net/maow/)
18:28:38 <flo> sure
18:28:43 <clokep_work> "Internet users in France spent [online] an average of 27 hours per person." an average of 27 hours...per what?
18:28:45 <clokep_work> Per day? ;)
18:28:48 <flo> month
18:28:51 <flo> that was in February
18:28:56 <flo> 2009
18:29:18 <clokep_work> Ah, OK. That makes sense then. Reading the slide I was confused though
18:29:33 <flo> when looking only at the slides, you are obviously missing what the speaker's going to explain ;)
18:29:37 <flo> you just see the topics
18:30:03 <flo> how does the plate of the AMI look?
18:30:32 <flo> I was annoyed that the number there was way too obvious and attracting the eye, so I thought I could as well put something more related to the presentation
18:31:03 <clokep_work> :) Looks nice.
18:31:40 <flo> I think when reading the quote I'll say "per person per month"
18:31:50 <aleth> nice numberplates :D
18:32:26 <flo> in the "evolution" part, before the old AIM screenshot, I wanted to put a picture of the instant messaging client I've found in the basement when emptying my grandparents' house, but I don't have a picture of it :(
18:32:56 <aleth> a telegraph?
18:33:17 <flo> yes!
18:34:42 <flo> back later
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18:34:54 <clokep_work> Looks good! :) I like the quote. ;)
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19:36:32 <DGMurdockIII> 2(jb2): hey is this ths the same jb from vlc?
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20:06:24 <flo> clokep_work: https://twitter.com/#!/mortonfox/status/134708343704006657 apparently we still have a lot of twitter work ahead ;)
20:08:12 <clokep_work> flo: Yeah I'm sure. :( What does "in-reply-to" mean?
20:08:21 <flo> I don't know
20:08:27 <clokep_work> And we handle mentions.
20:08:50 <flo> I think he wants that in a separate tab, because his timeline is probably floaded with tweets we never reads
20:10:22 <clokep_work> It's really easy to have information overflow on Twitter, yes.
20:10:46 <flo> s/we/he/
20:20:58 <flo> I asked more details on what the "in-reply-to timeline" was, here's the answer https://twitter.com/#!/mortonfox/status/134726926446247937
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20:25:30 <clokep_work> We can't really get that from Twitter easily. :-X
20:25:51 <clokep_work> (What would we do anyway, just open another conversation with it?)
20:26:21 <flo> I think so.
20:26:42 <flo> we should eventually find a way to make me stop going to twitter.com to check what a tweet was replying to ;)
20:30:33 <clokep_work> Yes. :(
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20:35:44 <aleth> Just got disconnected on an XMPP account, and it did not auto-reconnect. (This not on wireless)
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20:36:25 <clokep_work> Was there an error or just disconnected?
20:36:27 <clokep_work> Was it facebook? :P
20:36:55 <aleth> No error, certainly no facebook :)
20:37:15 <clokep_work> (If it was Facebook, I was just going to blame them. ;))
20:38:26 <flo> maybe we can blame facebook just because we always do, even when no facebook account is involved? ;)
20:38:46 <flo> I used to blame MSN though :)
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22:03:33 <clokep> Didn't I fix this issue with Twitter always giving you the full timeline already? :P
22:04:20 <flo> what's that referring to? Is someone complaining somewhere?
22:04:46 <clokep> Each time I restart Instantbird it's giving me all the tweets in my timeline instead of using the lastMessageId parameter...
22:05:32 <flo> are you starting it on different machines?
22:06:19 <clokep> Nope.
22:06:22 <clokep> Let me restart and check.
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22:06:53 <clokep> flo: Is my crasher causing it maybe?
22:07:04 <flo> oh yes!
22:07:24 <flo> if you are crashing preferences changed in the last few seconds before the crash aren't saved to disk
22:07:36 <clokep> OK.
22:07:47 <clokep> And we write that out during the unInit, i.e. in the last few seconds...
22:08:24 <clokep> Am I the only one to have that crash?
22:08:32 <flo> yes
22:08:48 <flo> (you are the only one sending reports for it at least)
22:09:41 <aleth> How many people are on the nightly, on average?
22:10:01 <flo> I don't know
22:10:40 <flo> we have the data in the logs to answer the question, but I've never took the time to extract the answer
22:10:44 <flo> *taken
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22:15:28 <clokep> Sorry about all that. :-/
22:15:32 <clokep> flo: I'm crashing even in safe-mode.
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22:16:07 <flo> don't worry too much about it
22:16:27 <flo> it should be easier to fix now that libpurple's (un)init isn't directly tied to our core (un)init
22:16:45 <clokep> Yeah, but it's annoying. :P
22:20:55 <flo> fix it? :-P
22:21:11 <clokep> Maybe if I knew the problem. :(
22:21:30 <flo> it's detailed in the bug
22:21:47 <clokep> Ah. I'll check it out.
22:22:05 <flo> clokep: bug 1017
22:22:08 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1017 cri, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Shutdown crash [@ purple_blist_node_set_ui_data ]
22:23:27 <clokep> Hmm...I see.
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23:05:12 <flo> clokep: hmm, wouldn't a simple fix be to just uninit all accountbuddies when uninitializing the contact list?
23:06:39 <flo> ah, unInit isn't exposed in the interface :-/
23:07:11 <flo> I guess we could add it
23:07:57 <Mook_as> how... odd. I managed to add a gtalk buddy twice. (the one added via instantbird always appears offline; the one added from gmail's html interface shows up again, and seems to work.)
23:09:33 <clokep> flo: Well if not we need to move that stuff for Twitter.
23:10:30 <flo> is twitter doing something odd in an unInit method of imIAccountBuddy?
23:10:44 <flo> I don't remember it implementing imIAccountBuddy at all :-S
23:15:00 <clokep> flo: Twitter saves the last message in the unInit method to the prefs and does something else.
23:15:33 <clokep> Ah, it calls "cleanUp" whatever that is. :P
23:15:38 <flo> unInit of the imIAccountBuddy!
23:15:40 <flo> not the accoutn
23:15:56 <clokep> Ohh, sorry.
23:16:05 <flo> I should try to remember that my changes tend to work better when I save all the files I've modified :-/
23:17:29 <flo> clokep: something like this: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1064
23:19:16 <clokep> It looks reasonable.
23:20:35 <flo> does it fix your bug?
23:21:07 <clokep> I'll try it in a second. :)
23:21:15 <clokep> Ah I need to go off this profile, I'll be back.
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23:24:03 <clokep> I can't reproduce on my debug build. :(
23:25:54 <flo> ahah :)
23:26:04 <flo> nobody can reproduce that bug :-P
23:26:57 <clokep> :P
23:28:25 <clokep> The worst type of bugs.
23:29:09 <flo> those that can't be reproduced in the debug build? :)
23:29:32 <flo> if nobody can reproduce it, it doesn't exist, right? ;)
23:31:28 <flo> I've changed my mind for what to say on the last part of the presentation, and I don't know any more what I could say on the major update prompt dialog :-S
23:32:05 <clokep> Is the major update prompt worth showing? If people are familiar with Mozilla what does it really show?
23:32:57 <flo> at FOSDEM, it showed that we need to do some invisible work so that people can receive automatic updates
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23:34:02 <aleth> Is it worth reminding people of long solved problems (other than as examples for how far it has come)?
23:34:29 <Mook_as> I like your key points :)
23:34:38 <clokep> So you mean the infrastructure involved in just doing updates?
23:34:54 <flo> if you think the server side of automatic update is a long solved problem, it's just that we have successfully misled you in believing that we know what we are doing there ;).
23:35:13 <flo> Mook_as: those that have numbered items? :-P
23:35:32 <Mook_as> yes, that one, just before Part 2
23:35:36 <aleth> :)
23:35:51 <flo> Mook_as: thanks for this valuable comment! ;)
23:36:02 <flo> aleth: seriously, handling updates is hard.
23:36:12 <aleth> Oh, I have no doubt about that
23:36:16 <flo> the requirement are constantly changing
23:36:19 <Mook_as> and you don't make updates very often, so it's... iffy
23:36:37 <flo> mozilla changes the way it does version numbers and branches
23:36:42 <flo> some OSes are no longer supported
23:36:45 <clokep> :(
23:36:53 <aleth> Right
23:37:18 <aleth> The fact they seem to work almost every day on the nightly gives the wrong impression then for major updates?
23:37:25 <flo> some system suddenly change their identifier (the mac universal build has changed name in the past, so that it's possible to detect PPC machines and avoid updating them to intel only builds)
23:37:37 <aleth> oh dear
23:38:05 <flo> aleth: nightlies are easier: just update to the latest build, and if it fails, that's the user's problem, as he has chosen that risk when installing the nightly in the first place
23:38:52 <flo> also, we need to know at compile time what we will upgrade from, so that we can create the partial update files
23:39:43 <flo> there's also some stupidly complicated logic for handling various channels, but I think we have given up on that.
23:39:50 <aleth> I can see why 0.2 -> 1.1 would be tricky, those are likely users with odd configurations anyway
23:40:18 <flo> aleth: it's tricky for another reason :-D
23:40:25 <flo> 0.2->1.0 was a major update
23:40:48 <flo> we have decided that new releases are minor unprompted updates, so 1.0 -> 1.1 is an automatic minor update
23:41:07 <aleth> Good idea
23:41:09 <flo> but what about 0.2->1.1? Minor? Major? WTF...
23:42:38 <flo> I think we will need to rewrite that system yet another time
23:43:10 <flo> the current system is complicated but fully automated, so that nobody ever has to look at how it works. Yet, since we have put it in place, we have had to add special cases for each release :(.
23:43:52 <flo> so I would like the next iteration to be simpler, less automated, but easy to understand within 10 minutes or less for any reasonably skilled person
23:44:26 <flo> with a web UI showing clearly what's going on, what's going to be updated to what, etc...
23:44:53 <aleth> I had at the back of my mind assumed that mozilla had done the hard work of installers/updaters already and you just had to use it :|
23:45:13 <aleth> Clearly I was wrong
23:46:31 <aleth> Are people also stuck on 0.2 because they choose to be?
23:46:38 <flo> they have done the client side
23:47:00 <flo> 0.2 is the latest version supporting Mac OS X 10.4
23:47:22 <flo> I'm not sure how many people are in that case, probably not more than a handful
23:49:02 <flo> by the way, I've kept that image, the new caption is "The Instantbird team", and my comment will say "there are also all the people who do the work so that you sometimes get an update." (with that image I can talk both about the changes to the application that are listed in the prompt, and about the infrastructure)
23:56:07 <aleth> Are you going to mention a couple of standout detail features and how seamless they are integrated? "Little" things like collapsing system messages, magic copy, merged contacts...
23:56:33 <clokep> Maybe when you talk about how we care about the user and respect their privacy and train of thought?
23:57:07 <aleth> Yes, because that's also kind of unique to IB, that you don't get those features via some menu item, but more naturally integrated
23:58:02 <aleth> nothing like Preferences -> Contacts -> Organize -> Combine ;)
23:58:59 <flo> I'm not planning on demoing instantbird
23:59:51 <flo> I don't really know where I would start if I wanted to talk about special features
23:59:55 <aleth> Was less about demoing, more about an example for the philosophy