#instantbird log on 11 08 2011

All times are UTC.

00:01:28 <flo> just found a bug in the account wizard
00:01:55 <flo> when I create an AIM account, if I open the "AIM advanced options" pane, then on the summary I have "Allow multple simul... false"
00:02:10 <flo> I don't have it if I don't open the advanced options pane before clicking next
00:02:59 <clokep> I don't like the way advanced settings in done in there in general personally. :)
00:03:50 <flo> I agree, I don't like that in general either, but more specifically, I don't like that it's currently broken ;)
00:04:00 <flo> I've verified in my current nightly that it's not a bug from my current set of changes
00:06:20 <aleth> Wasn't Mic redesigning that wizard anyway?
00:06:43 <clokep> I think he was playing w/ some of it. Although he was actually playing with the selecting account part perhaps.
00:10:25 <flo> I think I'll soon attach a WIP that can very well pretend to work
00:10:28 <flo> and then go to bed
00:10:35 <flo> anybody willing to review? :-P
00:10:41 <clokep> "attach" do we have a bug for this? :P
00:10:54 <flo> it's the reorganize purplexpcom bug
00:10:55 * clokep wonders if this will also close Mook_as' open bug. ;)
00:10:58 <clokep> Ah, right.
00:11:08 <clokep> Which became "reorganize the world"?
00:11:21 <Mook_as> "break the world"
00:11:32 <Mook_as> (and _maybe_ put the pieces back together. maybe.)
00:13:25 <flo> why do I keep finding just one little more bug each time I think I'm done? :-/
00:14:23 <flo> I'm also finding bugs that probably already existed
00:14:50 <flo> as my current build reports exceptions (with my printf calls in the JS engine) that are usually not visible
00:14:59 <flo> for example:
00:15:01 <flo> exception: '[JavaScript Error: "elt is null" {file: "chrome://instantbird/content/accounts.js" line: 215}]' when calling method: [nsIObserver::observe]
00:15:06 <aleth> skeletons in cupboards
00:15:06 <flo> when deleting a connected account.
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00:16:35 <aleth> sounds like it will all be a lot cleaner and easier to understand afterwards :)
00:17:23 <flo> I hope so :)
00:17:37 <flo> but it probably won't take us long to find more areas that need a cleanup
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00:19:25 <flo> ok, I'll stop now for this evening
00:19:27 <flo> 73 files changed, 2368 insertions(+), 4501 deletions(-)
00:19:58 <clokep> =-o Lots of changes!
00:20:09 <aleth> must be a record
00:20:20 <flo> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1052
00:20:43 <aleth> am impressed by the insertion/deletion ratio, is that partly due to c++ -> js?
00:20:44 <instantbot> c++ is evil
00:20:59 <clokep> I'd expect so.
00:21:55 <flo> aleth: yes, it's the C++ XPCOM -> modern JS transition
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00:28:39 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 976 to bug 759.
00:28:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Reorganize purplexpcom
00:28:56 <flo> I haven't set a r? flag, but any review comments are welcome of course :)
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00:29:35 <flo> I'll try to do a self-review before commiting it
00:30:25 <flo> + I would like to understand how things are going with libpurple plugin loaded as XPCOM components (= not statically linked to the libpurple core). I thought that part was going to be broken but... prpl-null is loaded in my debug build, so I'm puzzled and would like to understand :)
00:30:53 <clokep> I'll definitely read over some of it, we'll see if i hav ecomments or if it's beyond me. ;)
00:31:49 <Mook_as> hmm, please CC me?
00:32:13 <flo> Mook_as: no, I haven't played with the cycle collector :-P
00:32:46 <Mook_as> flo: oh, not _that_ CC, that would just abort the universe due to trying to use it on the wrong thread
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00:48:48 <flo> Good night
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10:01:27 <flo> hello :)
10:13:21 <aleth> hi :)
10:15:18 <aleth> huh, google has removed the + operator
10:17:50 <flo> is there a replacement?
10:18:25 <flo> (or a rational for this removal)
10:18:52 <aleth> I just looked
10:19:08 <aleth> The replacement is ".." (so they have merged + with exact search)
10:19:43 <aleth> The rationale is that +xyz now brings you a Google+ page paid for by company xyz
10:26:19 <flo> ok :)
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11:20:53 <clokep> Uhh..."Instantbird icon sketch" via http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/weekly-updates.fcgi/user/andreasn ?
11:21:40 <clokep> Is he the one you guys were talking about previously about icons?
11:22:00 <flo> he's the Thunderbird icon/design guy
11:22:18 <flo> I haven't asked him anything, but ecaron may have :)
11:22:34 <flo> clokep: hello :)
11:22:43 <flo> have you found some time to review parts of my patch?
11:23:15 <clokep> flo: I looked over bits and pieces of it and nothing looks wrong, but it's a lot to try to understand at once. :(
11:23:26 <flo> the "Chat mockups" parts surprises me almost as much as the "Instantbird icon sketch" line. I'll need to talk to him soon! :)
11:23:47 <clokep> Haha! OK. :) Was curious if you had more information and there was an icon sketch somewhere. ;)
11:24:03 <flo> it seems there is one somewhere! ;)
11:27:29 <clokep> :)
11:27:39 <clokep> I had a question now about your code, but just what some of it is doing...
11:27:57 <clokep> What is |#pragma GCC visibility push(default)| (and then there's a pop line after you include a header)
11:28:41 <flo> that's only for linux
11:29:00 <flo> on linux Mozilla's xpcom stuff is compiled with visibility hidden
11:29:27 <flo> but libpurple is compiled with visibility default (= everything accessible by outside libraries, except when there's a static keyword)
11:29:40 <clokep> I see.
11:30:03 <flo> if I don't include these pragma directives, gcc is unhappy about different visibility for the same symbols
11:30:15 <clokep> We need to reimplement purpleUnknownProtocol still. :-/
11:30:24 <flo> it's done
11:31:12 <flo> see the UnknownProtocol object in imAccounts.js
11:31:46 <clokep> Ah, awesome. :)
11:31:52 <flo> we need to a way to fail less noisily when loading a buddy of an account with an unknown protocol (but we have a bug filed on that)
11:32:01 <clokep> I need to learn how to spell first though...
11:32:44 <clokep> Ah, yeah that's what I was getting at.
11:33:05 <clokep> I have a few that pop up in my buddy list. :(
11:33:08 <flo> (or we can also just remove the noise)
11:33:21 <flo> (depending on whether we still think these buddies should be visible in the list or not)
11:33:44 <flo> "a few that pop up in my buddy list" ?
11:36:15 <clokep> Yeah I have a few of the errors in my real profile and it bothers me every time I open the error console. :(
11:36:24 <clokep> I'd think they should still be visible personally.
11:39:22 <flo> I don't feel strongly either way, but I would like to have less noise during startup of my debug build :)
11:39:57 <flo> with all of this implemented in JS, fixing this becomes quite easy
11:44:47 <clokep> Yup! :)
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11:53:09 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 977 to bug 759.
11:53:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Reorganize purplexpcom
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11:59:23 <instantbot> New Websites - www.instantbird.com bug 1153 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
11:59:24 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 978 to bug 1153.
11:59:25 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from do.not.deliver@gmx. de for attachment 978 on bug 1153.
11:59:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1153 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, German locale: string changes to "features" webpage
12:34:20 <aleth> Hey, is that the guy who designed the Earlybird/Thunderbird icons?
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12:41:22 <clokep_work> aleth: I think so.
12:43:12 <aleth> Well then I am looking forward to seeing the sketch :)
12:44:09 <aleth> Looking at flo's code reminds me to learn more JS ;)
12:45:48 <clokep_work> Looking at flo's newest code reminds me I have no understanding of the build system. :P
12:54:03 <flo> clokep_work: of the build system? really?
12:54:09 <flo> most of the new code is in JS
12:55:12 <clokep_work> flo: That newest one you put up to have purple protocols register automatically or something.
12:56:34 <clokep_work> aleth: So Sean Martell did the earlybird / daily icons: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=669341
13:02:36 <flo> clokep_work: well, there's nothing related to the build system in that. It's just some xpcom category registration. I moved it from a static file to something binary components register during the first startup
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13:54:44 <flo> I've removed idechix from the default CC list of bugs in the websites/www.instantbird.com/org components, as it doesn't make any sense any more to have him CC'ed automatically there
13:54:57 <flo> I looked at the CC lists of all the website components
13:55:12 <flo> I was wondering if we should add ecaron in the default CC list of blog.instantbird.com
14:04:10 <clokep_work> We probably should.
14:04:38 <clokep_work> flo: Ah, OK. Well then...it reminds me I have little understanding of the XPCOM system, especially C++ components.
14:04:39 * instantbot mumbles something about c++ being evil
14:29:48 <flo> https://wiki.mozilla.org/EU_MozCamp_2011/Schedule/Product_and_Technology_Track/Instantbird how does this summary feel?
14:31:17 <flo> or would you rather go to https://wiki.mozilla.org/EU_MozCamp_2011/Schedule/Product_and_Technology_Track/Contributing_to_Firefox_Front_End or https://wiki.mozilla.org/EU_MozCamp_2011/Schedule/Product_and_Technology_Track/Jetpack_L10N (scheduled at the same time)?
14:37:18 <clokep_work> It feels OK. It could possibly be a little more exciting.
14:37:45 <clokep_work> (The l10n one sounds lame. ;) But the Firefox UI one might be interesting for web developers...I think including something about the target audience in there might help?)
14:38:29 <clokep_work> Or perhaps a sentence about what sets Instantbird apart from other messaging clients? I don't know. I'm not sure of the population that goes to these things. :)
14:39:02 <flo> current european mozilla contributors that Mozilla Europe has invited
14:39:43 <flo> so I would expect lots of localizers, but also a few developers + all the speakers of the other talks ;)
14:44:02 <clokep_work> Alright. :) I can't think of much more to say in it, but hopefully other people have ideas.
14:44:15 <flo> I tried to keep it short
14:44:23 <flo> my first draft was 3 times longer
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14:45:49 <clokep_work> Yeah. I feel like everything I want to say would add at least another 2 - 3 sentences (doubling the length). :-/
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15:26:58 <andreasn> clokep_work, hello
15:27:26 <clokep_work> Hello andreasn. :) We noticed your weekly status update thing. I think flo (florian in #maildev) was interested too!
15:27:51 <andreasn> http://www.andreasn.se/diverse/temp/instantbird.jpg
15:27:56 <andreasn> very rough sketch
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15:28:42 <clokep_work> Better than anything I could do. ;)
15:30:14 <clokep_work> We do have interest in updating the icon though (I'm not sure if anyone contacted people? There was some discussion about it...)
15:30:53 <flo> clokep_work: ecaron sent some emails after the icon discussion that started on twitter a few days ago
15:31:13 <clokep_work> Ah OK. :)
15:32:58 <flo> andreasn: nice sketch! :)
15:33:35 <andreasn> no idea about color or anything right now, but I might make it more detailed during the weekend or so
15:33:54 <andreasn> if you like the direction
15:34:02 <flo> it somehow makes me feel that it's related to the twitter bird (looks a bit like http://img2.generation-nt.com/twitter-bird-logo_00FA000000612411.jpg with the head turned in a different direction) Is this on purpose (instantbird does support twitter)?
15:34:35 <andreasn> Twitter owns birds these days :)
15:34:39 <flo> of course, once colored, if the bird isn't blue, that similarity may not be visible anymore
15:34:40 * clokep_work had a similar thought.
15:36:24 <clokep_work> bug 1035 has some ideas in it too. Not sure if that discussion is useful.
15:36:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1035 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Update the Instantbird icon to signify an instant messenger
16:10:53 <flo> clokep_work: do you want more time to review changes, or can I just push it for the next nightly?
16:11:43 <clokep_work> flo: I think it'd be better to push it if it mostly works and then fix smaller errors if they come up.
16:12:08 <clokep_work> Maybe trigger a nightly too if you want some immediate testing. ;)
16:12:15 <clokep_work> "immediate" being a relative term of hours. :P
16:12:26 <flo> nighties appear quickly on linux ;)
16:12:56 <flo> by the way, I haven't tested that it compiles on non-Mac OSes :-D
16:13:09 <flo> but there's nothing that seem OS-specific in these changes
16:13:48 <clokep_work> Yeah, but Windows is a PITA. :P
16:14:40 <flo> mac is slower these days
16:14:56 <clokep_work> Oh?
16:15:06 <clokep_work> Wasn't there talk about clang speeding it up a lot?
16:15:37 <flo> the build machine is venerably old + it builds once for PPC, then one for x86, then a third time to merge both builds.
16:16:44 <aleth> still two architectures current for OSX?
16:17:51 <clokep_work> Still support OS X 10.5, which is both PPC and Intel.
16:18:11 <flo> venerably old is ~ 6 or 7 years in this case.
16:18:35 <flo> surprising that it can still work and even be useful as a compile server ;)
16:18:36 <aleth> right, and that's not that old, considering when win xp came out (for instance)
16:19:37 <flo> aleth: well, that machine probably shipped with 10.2 or 10.3 ;)
16:27:00 <aleth> birds are just a little overloaded already http://www.iconfinder.com/search/?q=bird
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16:28:49 <aleth> mainly due to twitter of course
16:30:48 <clokep_work> Well of course if you search bird it's going to give you a lot of birds back! ;)
16:31:30 * clokep_work personally thought of a Hummingbird around a globe or around a chat bubble (a la the Thunderbird or, dare I say, Sunbird logos).
16:31:38 <aleth> well e.g. horse gives you 10 results and half of those are chess pieces ;)
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16:32:19 <clokep_work> Ah supporting playing chess via IM, that's a feature we should add, glad you just found icons!
16:32:33 <aleth> But yeah, just means it has to be creative
16:33:14 <flo> IM games! :)
16:33:35 <flo> if we could get enthusiast add-on authors implementing lots of games played over IM, that would be really nice :)
16:33:41 <aleth> yup :)
16:34:26 * flo wonders why tweaking the appearance of the slide templates seems to take almost half of the time of creating slides for each presentation
16:34:30 <clokep_work> I believe some protocols (Yahoo?) actually support it directly.
16:34:43 <flo> those template are so reusable that we feel the need to create a new one for each presentation
16:36:50 <clokep_work> Just take one of those Instantbird backgrounds from idechix and throw it on as the background and voila you're done. ;)
16:37:01 <flo> and that doesn't work
16:37:12 <flo> the font of the "Instantbird" name has completely changed
16:37:23 <flo> + most of those wallpapers aren't designed to write above them
16:37:26 <flo> and even less display an image
16:37:59 <flo> my template for this presentation will be much simpler than the one I used in the past
16:38:08 <flo> and there will be less words per slides (and more slides)
16:39:10 <flo> what surprises me in this whole slide template thing is that I can't seem to think about the content until I can see the template, because if the template is horrible, I can't imagine myself presenting the slide
16:39:12 <clokep_work> :)
16:40:01 <flo> I'm close to something that I like
16:40:02 <aleth> yeah...
16:40:26 <aleth> And once the template looks good the words look better there too
16:40:26 <flo> but I've already been tweaking that for almost 2 hours
16:40:48 <aleth> I can spend ages choosing a font ;)
16:41:07 <flo> that was an easy step, I took the font from ib.com
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17:28:25 <flo> http://queze.net/goinfre/slides-moz-camp2011/ (no content yet, just the template)
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17:33:02 <clokep_work> flo: Looks shiny!
17:33:12 <aleth> All consistent with the website!
17:33:37 <igorko> hi
17:39:35 <aleth> You write your slides in HTML?
17:39:56 <flo> is there any other way to do slides?
17:40:46 <flo> each time I attempted to create something with PowerPoint (or the equivalent crap in OOo), I wanted to throw the computer out the window.
17:41:33 <flo> I haven't tried PowerPoint 2007 (or later), I've heard some people pretending that was usable.
17:41:36 <aleth> I had heard on Mac that Keynote is quite good?
17:41:39 <flo> keynote may also be usable
17:41:55 <clokep_work> I've never had a big problem w/ PowerPoint, but generally my presentations are pretty dry. ;)
17:42:54 <flo> basically, I don't want to be clicking around while I'm working on the content
17:43:24 <aleth> I can see that HTML might be convenient given a suitable CSS library or something, but from scratch...
17:43:40 <flo> clicking is OK while caring about the appearance, but with powerpoint/the equivalent in OOo, the UI leads to do both content and appearance at the same time :(
17:53:26 <flo> aleth: I didn't write all that from scratch. I used Paul's http://paulrouget.com/dzslides/
17:54:27 <aleth> Oh wow, that looks nice :)
17:55:01 <flo> in the past I used glazou's FullerScreen add-on
17:55:12 <flo> but having to maintain it myself just before each presentation was painful ;)
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22:34:46 <aleth> This nightly update just now, does that already include your megapatch, flo?
22:35:01 <flo> no
22:35:08 <flo> I'm reviewing/fixing it
22:35:31 <flo> I've just noticed several unused-on-Mac files that need changes
22:35:33 <aleth> Just asking because it came at an unusual time. My update pings must be out of sync
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23:17:42 <aleth> After using the add-on site for months, I have just discovered the little tickbox on the browse that is the only way to discover newly added experimental add-ons :(
23:18:18 <aleth> I was a little concerned that the "new" add-ons never seemed to change. But actually there is a fair amount of activity!
23:18:55 <aleth> So I suspect add-ons are getting stuck in experimental limbo because, not being discovered, they lack reviews, and therefore they never go public?
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23:20:50 <aleth> Or maybe it's just me... :P
23:23:10 <aleth> Anyhow, this only applies to the usability category anyway, as the others have a different interface without an 'experimental' tickbox. Not sure what happens there
23:23:11 <flo> except reviews aren't needed for add-ons to get public
23:23:53 <flo> a screenshot is though, and that part is hard for my add-ons, as they rarely expose a new piece of UI :-/
23:25:15 <aleth> umm... http://i.imgur.com/BhX9f.png
23:25:46 <aleth> Maybe the conditions should be formulated more flexibly ("as a rule, ..."
23:26:40 <aleth> But my point was more about discoverability - are experimental non-usability add-ons findable by any means if you don't know their name?
23:28:21 <flo> I've found a few more needed changes (22 files changed, 63 insertions(+), 93 deletions(-)
23:28:21 <flo> ) while reviewing my patch
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23:30:16 <flo> aleth: that description is just not accurate :(
23:30:23 <flo> screenshot are required (and that sucks)
23:30:35 <flo> reviews are "better", but not mandatory
23:31:13 <aleth> Yes, I made a tiny 1x1 gif for one of mine ;)
23:31:22 <flo> ahah
23:31:28 <flo> why not png?
23:31:46 <aleth> oh, it probably was a png, you are right
23:32:06 <aleth> might have been 2x2 as well, just needed something :P
23:38:58 <flo> clokep: I can confirm that the icon ratio is correctly kept for what we sent to IM servers
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23:50:12 <clokep> flo: Awesome! :)
23:50:36 <flo> I've just verified it at least on AIM and MSN
23:54:05 <instantbot> New Websites - addons.instantbird.org (Remora) bug 1154 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
23:54:06 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm added attachment 979 to bug 1154.
23:54:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1154 nor, --, ---, raynaudquentin, NEW, Stated conditions for nominating an add-on for 'public' status are incorrect
23:54:16 <clokep> So often I just don't show up in one of my friends contact lists. :-/ Unfortuantely there doesn't seem to be any STR.
23:54:34 <flo> which protocol(s)?
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23:57:45 <clokep> AIM, Gtalk, ICQ.
23:58:14 <clokep> I lied, ICQ works. :) He wasn't signed into that one.
23:58:51 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 980 to bug 759.
23:58:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Reorganize purplexpcom
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23:59:26 <flo> clokep: do you want to look at these additional changes? If not, I'm ready to commit
23:59:43 <clokep> flo: I'm about to eat dinner. :-/