#instantbird log on 10 31 2011

All times are UTC.

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00:16:56 <clokep_> So weird thing...#instantbird isn't coming up properly for me. :-/
00:21:35 <aleth> wfm :/
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01:01:48 <clokep_> Bah I think there's a netsplit. :-/
01:04:17 <aleth> looks like it... only 11 participants suddenly
01:04:34 <clokep_> Yes and there's 13 in the other.
01:05:06 <clokep_> And there's no overlap. :)
01:16:53 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm added attachment 960 to bug 1128.
01:16:55 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 960 on bug 1128.
01:16:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1128 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Contact list CSS inheritance cleanup
01:17:16 <aleth> Well you are in both you're not missing anything ;)
01:27:50 <clokep_> Yes! :)
01:37:18 <clokep_> Goodnight.
01:38:31 <instantbot> mattdentremont@gmail.com added attachment 961 to bug 772.
01:38:32 <instantbot> mattdentremont@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 961 on bug 772.
01:38:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772 enh, --, ---, mattdentremont, ASSI, Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts
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08:07:48 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1129 filed by kevin.gadd@gmail.com.
08:07:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1129 min, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Installing add-ons and themes is too difficult
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09:12:08 <FeuerFliege> hi
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10:23:17 <clokep> Why do people post bug reports in blog comments? :-/
10:28:06 <FeuerFliege> clokep: ?
10:28:27 <FeuerFliege> btw who does addon-reviews?
10:28:47 <clokep> FeuerFliege: http://blog.instantbird.org/2011/10/weekly-meeting-october-17-2011/#comments
10:29:38 <FeuerFliege> at least it is in the instantbird blog and not in their own blog ;)
10:31:23 <clokep> flo and Even do.
10:31:28 <flo> clokep: that person is also unable to write a complete sentence ;)
10:31:43 <clokep> flo: I'm guessing English isn't their first language.
10:31:55 <flo> it isn't mine either
10:32:05 <flo> ;)
10:32:55 <clokep> True. :)
10:33:25 <flo> FeuerFliege: usually Even, and if something looks complicated / confusing / potentially dangerous, he asks me to double check.
10:33:48 <Even> Yeah.
10:34:03 <Even> About that, I have one extension with a .so residing in it but no code source for it along.
10:34:11 <Even> I don't know what is best to do in this case.
10:34:30 <flo> link?
10:35:48 <Even> I'll send you that in private.
10:38:14 <Even> I approved 2 smileys addons today.
10:38:51 <Even> there is still one left (specific to Unity's desktop manager, used in recent Ubuntu distribution) and that's all
10:39:55 <Even> Nothing left to validate.
10:43:05 <flo> cool :)
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11:20:31 <Even> Ok, now I also validated updates.
11:20:48 <Even> Seems there is nothing to validate either in new addons or updates :)
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11:40:51 <Mic> Hi
11:41:14 <Mic> Ah, cool of course! It's Halloween! :)
11:41:36 <Mic> Thanks for the extra branding, it's so cool ;)
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11:50:55 <flo> :)
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11:51:17 <clokep_work> Smiling that I just came in? ;)
11:51:37 <flo> note to Americans (and more generally, non-Europeans) : if we do the meeting at the usual time, it will be an hour later for you.
11:51:43 <flo> (this week only)
11:56:36 <clokep_work> Ah, thanks for pointing that out. :)
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12:05:51 <FeuerFliege> No more daylight saving time
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13:09:49 <clokep_work> Anyone understand that latest comment on the blog then? :-/
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14:06:04 <flo> clokep_work: which comment?
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14:10:13 <clokep_work> flo: http://blog.instantbird.org/2011/10/weekly-meeting-october-17-2011/comment-page-1/#comment-1008
14:10:56 <instantbot> do.not.deliver@gmx.de added attachment 962 to bug 1078.
14:10:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1078 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "Search add-ons" tab looks bad with the German locale
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14:13:00 <flo> clokep_work: that sounds like a poor google translate, you were probably right that English wasn't his first language :)
14:13:26 <flo> probably meant "thanks, the solution posted there worked, I've just disabled SSL certificate checking"
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14:15:23 <Mic> Is it actually "Zuletzt durchgeührte Updates" in German, uah..
14:18:32 <Mic> Maybe we could fix this by suggesting something like "Kürzliche Updates" or "Neuste Updates"
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14:19:57 <FeuerFliege> Mic: i don’t think I translated that. 
14:20:23 <Mic> I didn't say we should fix that ourselves ;)
14:23:13 <Mic> I guess here's our problem then: http://hg.mozilla.org/l10n-central/de/file/8d46ab559a7e/toolkit/chrome/mozapps/extensions/extensions.dtd#l33
14:25:14 <Mic> I'm away, I hope I'll be back in time for the meeting.
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14:30:26 <flo> clokep_work: what would you think of renaming interfaces like purpleIConversation and purpleIAccountBuddy to prplIConversation and prplIAccountBuddy? (the idea would be purple = related to libpurple, prpl = implemented by the protocol plugin)
14:34:07 <clokep_work> flo: That seems OK to me.
14:34:28 <clokep_work> What would use purple then? Things like purpleICoreService?
14:34:53 <flo> I had to move purpleIConversation.idl to chat/components/public to get my file moves to compile, and it didn't make much sense to have a purpleI interface there ;)
14:35:14 <flo> I'm not exactly sure.
14:35:20 <flo> purpleIProxy things
14:35:28 <flo> (if we don't manage to kill that interface)
14:37:36 <clokep_work> Alright. :)
14:37:51 <clokep_work> Would purpleIConversation not just be imIConversations?
14:38:25 <aleth> naively, wouldn't prpl -> prcl look a bit more like "protocol" and less like "purple"?
14:38:29 <clokep_work> Why do we need the distinction for protocol plug-ins? Just to help people know what they need to override?
14:38:46 <clokep_work> aleth: prpl is a term from libpurple (protocol plugin became prpl which became purple)
14:39:16 <flo> clokep_work: well, in that case we need to rename the current imIConversation to imIUIConversation
14:40:15 <flo> clokep_work: imIConversation is a conversation with an imIContact. purpleIConversation is a conversation with a purpleIAccountBuddy (that's lower level, and all the protocol plugin should see/care about).
14:42:44 <clokep_work> flo: OK. That works fine for me too.
14:42:52 <clokep_work> (prpl essentially is backend, im is essentially UI?)
14:43:36 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 960 on bug 1128.
14:43:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1128 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, NEW, Contact list CSS inheritance cleanup
14:43:44 <flo> yeah...
14:43:49 <flo> well, not really
14:44:14 <flo> prplI is implemented by protocol plugins, imI is implemented by the core, and ibI is actually the UI
14:44:57 <flo> I'm trying to design some interfaces that make sense for the accounts
14:45:04 <flo> the current "thing" we have is quite confusing
14:45:39 <clokep_work> Alright. :) That works too.
14:45:52 <clokep_work> The ui conversation vs. purple conversation always confused me.
14:45:58 <flo> I suspect most of the confusion comes from using the same xpcom interface for interactions between the protocol plugins and the accounts service, and for interactions between the user (through the account manager window) and the accounts service.
14:46:34 <flo> clokep_work: is it because the concept is confusing, or because the documentation is mostly nonexistent?
14:47:30 <clokep_work> flo: I think I have trouble remembering where things are implemented.
14:47:45 <clokep_work> I.e. what the difference between imIConversation and purpleIConversation is at a high level.
14:48:00 <clokep_work> (Documentation would help too! The notification list wasn't really finished. :()
14:48:11 <flo> + we have a third kind of conversation: the xbl binding ;)
14:49:25 <clokep_work> Isn't there also conversation.xml + conv.xml? :P
14:49:29 <flo> so: 3 possible object types for "the conversation". And we also have 3 possible object types for "who am I talking to?"
14:49:57 <flo> yeah... that's a recent addition to the overall confusing mess :-P.
14:50:15 <clokep_work> Yes. :(
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14:50:26 <clokep_work> That one took me a while when I found that in my folders...
14:50:36 <clokep_work> Bah I keep meaning to write a blog post about a hack I did for a friend.
14:51:01 <clokep_work> He didn't like contacts becoming two lines when selected, so I !importanted back to the standard binding in userChrome.
14:51:23 <flo> the expand action isn't in the context menu
14:51:38 <flo> does he know the keyboard shortcuts for it?
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14:53:04 <clokep_work> Expand action?
14:53:06 <clokep_work> What?
14:53:14 <flo> seeing the buddies
14:53:22 <clokep_work> I'm not sure how that relates. :-/
14:53:44 <flo> clokep_work: the "expand" button is only visible in the 2 lines contact.
14:53:54 <flo> if you don't show it when selected, it's never visible
14:54:03 <clokep_work> I don't think he ever expands contacts.
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14:54:15 <flo> well, he certainly can't do it any more ;)
14:54:15 <clokep_work> (You shouldn't need to once you make contacts IMO.)
14:55:09 <clokep_work> Touche. :)
14:55:38 <clokep_work> Aren't they shown for not-selected contacts on mouseover?
14:57:19 <flo> no, that's the "start chat" bubble
14:58:13 <clokep_work> Ah, you're right. :)
14:58:26 <clokep_work> I'll let him know though! (And add it as a caveat in my blog post. ;))
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16:09:01 <Mic|web> Hi
16:10:38 <clokep_work> Hello.
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16:54:28 <clokep_work> We don't have an etherpad going yet, right?
16:54:46 <Mook_as> any reason to not just use the mozilla one?
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16:56:22 <Mic|web> clokep_work: we have, I created it earlier and fixed the wiki page already.
16:56:28 <Mic|web> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/instantbird-weekly-meeting-20111031
16:56:29 <clokep_work> We do use the Mozilla one Mook_as ;)
16:56:38 <clokep_work> Mic|web: Thanks. :) I was about to check there.
16:57:00 <Mook_as> oh, more monday meetings :D
17:00:50 <clokep_work> Yes, Monday meetings are fun. :P
17:01:48 <Mic|web> Oh, you already did all the work?
17:02:28 <clokep_work> Something like that. ;) Although you guys are making me take my lunch awfully late. ;)
17:03:01 <flo> I love that Google wave spellchecker that catches things as I type them ;)
17:04:56 <clokep_work> flo: How is "next" different then "What are we working on now?"
17:05:09 <flo> it hasn't started at all :-/
17:05:35 <clokep_work> Ah I see.
17:05:56 <flo> I'm not sure it all makes sense. We could as well just put a single section per person
17:06:17 <clokep_work> Could make more sense. :)
17:06:23 <flo> clokep_work: I don't remember denying you reviews :-S
17:06:32 <flo> (recently I mean)
17:06:46 <clokep_work> flo: You did, the one about the copyright entities.
17:06:48 <clokep_work> And something else.
17:07:17 <flo> ah, yes. I didn't even remember that bug existed. I'm glad we have bugzilla to empty our minds and remember instead of us :)
17:07:22 <clokep_work> bug 1083 and bug 1116
17:07:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
17:07:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1116 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Number of messages in a restored conversation should be limited
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17:11:04 <clokep_work> Unfortunately I didn't get anything done this weekend as I was away, so hopefully start ramping up on IRC now! :)
17:11:58 <flo> by the way, tomorrow is a holiday in France (and probably several other of European countries), so today is still more or less part of the week-end, as is tomorrow
17:12:46 <aleth> Hi :)
17:12:53 <flo> hmm, shouldn't we somehow have a section that lists what's visibly changed in the nightlies?
17:13:12 <flo> it would be nice in the meeting summary post every week to list what people can try in new nightlies I think
17:13:38 <flo> (or what's changing soon (= expected to change before the next meeting))
17:13:45 <aleth> Just wanted to suggest that the main (smaller?) issues identified from 1.1 feedback should maybe be 1.2-blocking (e.g SSL handling, add-on experience)
17:14:00 <flo> (and example of something expected to change soon could be the inactive color on nicks in the participant list)
17:14:02 <clokep_work> flo: That's a good idea.
17:14:17 <clokep_work> It also lets us direct people toward testing new features?
17:14:19 <aleth> flo: a hg-shortlog-digest?
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17:14:48 <flo> hmm, maybe the post should include a summary of the feedback received in the previous week (in this case, the 1.1 feedback)
17:14:54 <clokep_work> I think that should be in the blog post though, not in the minutes. It can be gleaned from our "what did you do list + hg shortlog"
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17:15:12 <aleth> best-of-shortlog ;)
17:15:34 <flo> yeah, a "what does this mean to you" kind of summary
17:15:39 <flo> not the technical details :)
17:17:07 <flo> for the 1.1 feedback, we have mostly the "SSL handshake failed" error message that sucks (+ no way to show the cert error/exception dialog), and the crash when disconnecting a connecting account using SSL (reproducable easily on AIM and IRC at least) (bug 1089).
17:17:09 <aleth> a user-readable blog shouldn't really go into technical details anyway
17:17:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1089 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Crash [@ ssl_nss_handshake_cb]
17:19:34 <clokep_work> aleth: I agree, the SSl stuff needs to be handled better for 1.2.
17:19:56 <flo> I think we all agree on that.
17:20:07 <flo> Do we have the beginning of a solution though?
17:20:48 <flo> or do we know how much better it needs to be in 1.2 to be acceptable?
17:21:19 <clokep_work> The "solution" as I see it is to use the Firefox accept cert dialog stuff, which I think is in toolkit?
17:21:25 <clokep_work> How to do that? I don't know. :-/
17:21:27 <flo> would just splitting the "SSL handshake failed" into 3 or 4 more descriptive messages depending on the situation be good enough?
17:22:31 <flo> I'm afraid we will need the help of something who knows that code to successfully reuse the Firefox/toolkit code path.
17:23:20 <clokep_work> Hmm...if I look into it a bit, it's possible I can ask in #developers.
17:23:26 <flo> random (maybe stupid) idea: if we rewrite the purple_proxy code to call nsSocketTransport instead, would we get the correct SSL handling for free in addition to cleaning up our proxy mess?
17:23:45 <clokep_work> I /think/ we might, but I'm not sure.
17:24:55 <flo> it may be interesting to explore that idea
17:25:06 <flo> as cleaning up the proxy thing would be a net win anyway
17:25:16 <clokep_work> Yes. :)
17:25:21 <clokep_work> Do we have a real bug tracking this?
17:25:28 <flo> the prpl code looks like this: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/protocols/irc/irc.c#388
17:25:34 <flo> I don't know
17:25:56 <flo> apparently for ssl it calls "purple_ssl_connect" instead of "purple_proxy_connect"
17:26:27 <flo> but that just calls purple_proxy_connect again: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/sslconn.c#139
17:27:08 <flo> so maybe if we rewrite both...
17:27:25 <flo> clokep_work: bug 155
17:27:28 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=155 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unify proxy settings
17:27:46 <clokep_work> Hmm...does that stuff go through the mozilla code path at all?
17:28:16 <flo> my purpleSocket code plugs all that back into nsSocketTransportService
17:29:23 <flo> I guess I'll need to think more about it
17:29:26 <clokep_work> Alright. So we either need to modify purpleSocket or modify purple_proxy  to use nsSocketTransportService directly.
17:29:46 <flo> but I don't really expect to have much time to look into libpurple-only parts of the code during the next 2 months :-/
17:30:28 <clokep_work> I can take a gander at this, I've worked with the socket stuff in JS land.
17:30:50 <flo> I thought you were afraid of libpurple? :-P
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17:31:32 <clokep_work> Ah I was planning to look at the purpleSocket code first. ;)
17:32:39 <flo> that's probably the most difficult to understand part of our whole code
17:33:05 <flo> thread safe C++ XPCOM interacting with libpurple, and with mozilla on multiple threads.
17:33:06 * instantbot mumbles something about c++ being evil
17:33:44 <flo> if you understand that part you won't have any reason to fear anything else in purplexpcom after that :)
17:33:55 <clokep_work> Bah well...I'm going to try to track down the toolkit/Firefox dialog first!
17:34:35 <aleth> Would be a big win as maybe then 90% of people wouldn't just disable certificate checking :)
17:34:47 <aleth> (which surprised me actually)
17:36:27 <flo> aleth: there probably aren't that many people actually disabling it
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17:36:59 <flo> we keep telling about that pref, so it seems a lot. But that's probably a total of less than 20 people.
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17:37:59 <aleth> Good point, the pref isn't that discoverable I guess.
17:39:08 <aleth> As long as people don't give up on IB rather than seek support if they get "weird errors"...
17:39:57 <flo> yeah, that's also quite possible :(
17:40:15 <aleth> Afaik pidgin in the same situation throws up a "would you like to disable certificate checking" dialog (it likes throwing dialogs anyway) which appears superficially helpful to the user
17:40:51 <flo> does Pidgin check certificates at all (on Windows)?
17:41:25 <aleth> Don't know about Windows, but a long time ago on Linux I had that situation when a server cert had expired
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17:42:14 <clokep_work> Well It hink we just need to implement http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/toolkit/mozapps/shared/src/badCertHandler.js mostly...
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17:43:18 <flo> clokep_work: that will work for twitter / JS-IRC / JS-XMPP, which might definitely be useful :)
17:43:43 <flo> libpurple currently calls directly into NSS, without any XPCOM code in between.
17:43:52 <clokep_work> Ah. I didn't realize that. :-/
17:44:09 <clokep_work> (Note that that's bug 761)
17:44:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, JS-Socket fails to properly handle SSL errors
17:45:27 <clokep_work> How close are we to landing the colored participants list aleth? What's blocking it right now?
17:45:52 <aleth> clokep_work: Nothing afaik? (aka "needs review")
17:46:18 <clokep_work> Oh, OK. Code review or UI review? ;)
17:46:29 <aleth> Code should be OK
17:46:31 <flo> the more I look at this, the more I think we should start by rewriting both purple_ssl_connect and purple_proxy_connect, and then see if we still need SSL code at all in libpurple.
17:47:01 <flo> clokep_work: I don't remember well, but I think it's r+ and just needs me to test it locally before pushing it.
17:48:03 <aleth> I would also tentatively suggest the same for the message style fixes, they were done in a rush but the easiest way to see if they look good for everyone is to have them in the nightlies
17:48:41 <aleth> After all they shouldn't look /worse/ than the status quo ;)
17:48:49 <flo> bug 761 is quite confusing (reading it quickly, I couldn't figure what it's exactly trying to fix), but it may be 1.2-blocking if it has a high impact on all JS protocols
17:48:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, JS-Socket fails to properly handle SSL errors
17:50:09 <flo> aleth: I asked idechix's opinion today about these changes to the message styles. He said that he would probably try to change the opacity rather than the saturation on the dark theme, but that he wasn't sure and it was only a potential idea to explore
17:50:42 <clokep_work> flo: It's to have the SSL dialog pop up when there's a cert error in the JS socket.
17:50:47 <flo> aleth: but yeah, overall that seems to just need me to do/finish the review and push it.
17:50:54 <flo> sorry for blocking you on so many patches :-/
17:51:23 <aleth> flo: no worries, it's just lots of little things accumulating across the 1.1 release period, that's all
17:51:28 <flo> clokep_work: ah, so that would popup the ugly dialog like in Thunderbird when there's an ssl error on a news server?
17:52:04 <clokep_work> flo: Yes. :)
17:52:27 <clokep_work> flo: Would you like help with reviews? Although most of the CSS stuff is not my fortay.
17:52:41 <aleth> flo: Opacity is a nice idea, could be worth a try to see if it looks better. I've actually forgotten exactly what I did there... I think I just tried to remain as close to the bubbles solution as possible
17:53:08 <flo> clokep_work: I think these reviews are basically done, I just need to apply the patches and check locally that nothing looks broken before pushing
17:53:59 <clokep_work> Ah, I also have the deleted Twitter messages stuff to fix. :-/
17:54:09 <flo> do we have anything interesting to discuss related to communication?
17:54:11 <clokep_work> Awesome, great! :)
17:54:12 <Mic|web> bye
17:54:25 <aleth> There was a question about a subtle blueish tint in one style, again I think most easily decided once people can actually see it
17:54:40 <Mic|web> I'm looking forward to see aleth's patch in the nightlies :)
17:54:49 <flo> opacity could also work there too
17:55:01 <flo> Mic|web: are you talking about context messages in all default theme, or the nick list?
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17:55:18 <aleth> opacity + black is just another shade of grey ;)
17:55:23 <flo> (I look forward to seeing inactive participants too! I don't care much about the themes  I don't use)
17:55:43 <flo> aleth: wasn't that on the Simple theme?
17:55:51 <aleth> flo: yes
17:56:12 <flo> the text is not necessarily black. The sender of the message can color it
17:57:17 <aleth> Yes, there are many ways one could fine-tune those message style fixes. Like I said, I did them as quickly as possible because I thought it might make 1.1 (for users of other styles who like to use conversations on hold)
17:57:23 <clokep_work> "related to communication"?
17:57:31 <aleth> re communications, is there a way to reach out to FF add-on authors who might want to port their addons but never heard about IB?
17:57:42 <flo> things to tweet/blog, any thing to do to get a bit more attention on 1.1
17:57:45 <flo> or whatever
17:58:05 <clokep_work> We should do a blog post on hiding conversations.
17:58:36 <flo> by the way, I have a slot for a talk at MozCamp Berlin
17:58:56 <flo> that may be a nice opportunity to talk to people already in the Mozilla community but who may not know Instantbird yet
17:59:03 <aleth> neat :)
17:59:17 <flo> ideas for how they can get involved would probably be something interesting to present
17:59:19 <clokep_work> Do you have a topic in mind?
17:59:32 <clokep_work> (Or is it just about "Instantbird" in general or something else?)
18:00:34 <flo> this is the proposal I sent (and which was accepted): "The presentation will introduce the Instantbird project (it will be explicit that it's a community project, not an official project of the Mozilla Foundation), explain our goals and values, show what we have already done, discuss what we are doing next and how people can help us."
18:01:01 <-- mmkmou has quit (Client exited)
18:01:31 <flo> and I added:
18:01:31 <flo> "The goals of the presentation are:
18:01:32 <flo> - to give an opportunity to community members who, if they don't follow planet.mozilla.org closely, may have never heard about Instantbird to discover it
18:01:32 <flo> - to show that it's easy to contribute to Instantbird and have a significant effect on a project of this comparatively small size."
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18:04:03 <flo> The (generic) acceptation email says "Make sure your talk includes a direct call-to-action for contributors and that your last slide is on "How to Get Involved in My Project." By the end of your talk, attendees should be energized about contributing and should have a clear understanding "how" to contribute. "
18:04:24 <aleth> Might be worth mentioning that (I guess) to people familiar with mozilla code, XUL and so on, there is little learning curve
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18:04:59 <aleth> btu maybe that's obvious...
18:05:21 <flo> there may be lots of Firefox localizers at this event, so I guess it's obvious to say that more localizations are welcome ;)
18:07:13 <clokep_work> :)
18:07:21 <clokep_work> Localizations are good!
18:07:37 <flo> except welcoming new localizers takes time ;)
18:07:50 <clokep_work> Some place we could use help! :)
18:08:57 <flo> yeah
18:09:16 <flo> we are not having a really active conversation, so I guess the meeting is over. Except if someone has more questions? :)
18:09:42 <Mook_as> I have a question, but it's "why is my code not working" and not related to instantbird ;)
18:10:20 <aleth> I have a question re the DOM inspector ;) so not meeting related
18:10:46 <clokep_work> Well fire away then. :)
18:11:39 <flo> Mook_as: I also have a question about "why can't I debug that stupid ssl crash?" ;)
18:12:13 <Mook_as> do you have reliable steps to reproduce?
18:12:22 <flo> yes
18:12:37 <Mook_as> then I don't know why you can't debug it :p
18:12:48 <Mook_as> (does the debugger just die?)
18:12:53 <flo> I've no idea of what's going on
18:13:07 <flo> valgrind dies, but that doesn't matter :-D
18:13:11 <aleth> or is it one of those where the problem goes away in debug build? ;)
18:13:13 <Mook_as> can you attach the debugger, then try to crash?
18:13:18 <flo> as it dies after showing the stack of the crash
18:13:53 <aleth> How does the DOM inspector interact with focus? i.e. browsing the DOM inspector necessarily loses IB focus and hence changes what I am looking at. Any tricks on how to handle/get around this?
18:13:54 <flo> aleth: hmm, valgrind just crashes on my debug build :-D.
18:14:19 <Mook_as> aleth: it deals poorly with focus, but you _can_ set pseudoclasses like :active
18:14:29 <flo> aleth: unfortunately, I've never found any way to see with DOM inspector the rules applied for a focused element :(
18:14:36 <Mook_as> though I don't think it helps with the contact list thing being grey instsead of highlight
18:14:59 <aleth> Mook_as: you mean set them from the DOM inspector, or in the CSS?
18:15:16 <Mook_as> from DOMi (right click on the element, set pseudo classes, :focus)
18:15:18 <flo> what I would need is a way to do a refresh of the displayed rules with a timer
18:15:29 <aleth> Mook_as: my issue atm is that the selected item styling changes when it loses focus
18:15:41 <aleth> and I am not sure which the inspector is telling me about
18:15:55 <aleth> it's confusing
18:16:00 <Mook_as> right; your issue, IIRC, is that it uses a magic mozilla pseudoclass rule that depends on the _window_ having focus, instead of the element
18:16:11 <aleth> Yes
18:16:23 <aleth> (I believe)
18:17:08 <aleth> (I got what looked like conflicting results in the DOM inspector when I tried yesterday)
18:17:56 <aleth> (e.g. at times there were simply /no/ CSS rules displayed for the element I was looking at, but not reproducibly so)
18:18:30 <flo> aleth: isn't that when looking at the rules of an element which is no longer in the document? (because the XBL binding has been detached)
18:19:30 <aleth> flo: If that's the case, it is detached because the window lost focus :| which I doubt somehow, at least I can't see it in the code
18:20:22 <Mook_as> anyway, what rule _should_ be applying?
18:21:17 <aleth> at minimum, the rule which is selection-independent ;)
18:22:31 <Mook_as> yay! my code wasn't working because I was caching a helper object, causing the same one to be used on multiple threads, which meant I was sometimes getting back the wrong thing
18:23:42 <aleth> Anyways, I'll just have to understand the code better (what exactly happens when a contact list item is selected)
18:26:14 <Mook_as> hmm, :focus isn't sticking
18:26:54 <Mook_as> (looking at http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/blist.css#44 )
18:28:39 <Mook_as> and I don't know why http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/themes/blist.css#149 is using -moz-dialog
18:31:03 <aleth> gtg for a bit. Thanks!
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18:31:59 <Mook_as> fwiw, style="background: Highlight; color: HighlightText;" looks prettier on my machine
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18:40:43 <flo> Mook_as: isn't "highlight" some kind of blue that doesn't look very well with the protocol icons and the gray used for the status text?
18:41:11 <Mook_as> true
18:41:19 <Mook_as> but it's still more visible than the current grey :)
18:46:12 <flo> you said "looks prettier", not "more visible" ;)
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18:49:08 <Mook_as> I may have an overly functional sense of beauty ;)
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19:45:20 * aleth thinks the grey looks OK and at least will fit in (as it's actually theme-dependent)
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20:05:07 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 
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20:33:33 <Mic> Hi
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20:48:16 <aleth> omg I think I found the problem, and it was trivial
20:49:05 <aleth> Sometimes coming back after a day and looking at it fresh is the best thing to do ;)
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20:52:33 * Mook_as wonders what the problem was
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20:53:06 <aleth> I forgot to modify an entire relevant XBL
20:53:41 <aleth> which nicely explains the absence of rules in some cases ;)
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20:54:30 <aleth> ...an XBL I did not realise existed separately before following the rules
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20:57:54 <Mic> I'm not sure I follow?
20:58:31 <Mic> Do you mean that you only changed one of several different bindings that could be used for a certain element?
20:59:20 <flo> aleth: that works surprisingly well for some entire categories of "strange bugs" :).
21:00:15 <flo> especially for strange crashes where the stacks are obviously corrupted and can't help much: 1. stare at the code for a while. 2. Sleep for a while. 3. Have a shower. 4. You have the solution.
21:00:42 <flo> sometimes the steps 1-3 need to be repeated several times before reaching state 4 though :-/.
21:00:56 <aleth> Mic: yes. And inexperience with the DOM inspector confused me into thinking the problem had to be more subtle.
21:01:03 <aleth> flo: :)
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21:05:32 <Mic> Small steps but progress anyways: I finally made personas shine through the con-top-info.
21:05:40 <Mic> Stupid tabbrowser CSS :S
21:05:42 <Mic> http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9466/ibpersonas3.png
21:06:08 <flo> nice :)
21:06:23 <Mic> I never thought I'd hear you say that about Personas :P
21:06:44 <Mook_as> hmm, I guess you can't make it override the window manager decorations easily...
21:06:46 <flo> I'm surprised that the image is high enough to fill the vertical splitter
21:06:58 <aleth> smooth :)
21:07:00 <flo> Mook_as: why not?
21:07:09 <aleth> I don't use them myself but they are *very* popular
21:07:25 <flo> I've been using a persona on Firefox for a few weeks
21:07:26 <Mook_as> well, you'd need to deal with all the fancy titlebar-drawing stuff, plus then it wouldn't be translucent I think
21:07:30 <flo> I dislike it.
21:07:54 <flo> But I'm trying to see if I can manager to forget about it (= no longer feeling that it's painful)
21:07:59 <flo> -r
21:08:02 <Mic> Personas were feature-parity-ie3 (or 4?) iirc :P
21:08:19 <aleth> flo: apart from everything else, they really dont look polished on Linux (like so many aspects of mozilla UI)
21:08:48 <aleth> but yeah, distracting after like 5 minutes
21:09:38 <Mic> Mook_as: yes, unfortunately :(
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21:10:24 <Mic> It's not filling the splitter completely, it's repeated.
21:10:51 <Mic> It's a subtle persona too, I can show you much worse if you like ;)
21:11:45 <flo> I don't care too much about the uggliness of the image used for the WIP screenshots :-P
21:12:25 <Mic> http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/3127/ibpersonas3b.png
21:12:38 <Mic> Maybe you're disappointed enough now ;)
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21:15:46 <Mic> flo: the snippet in bug 602 works for me in both Ib's and Fx's error console
21:15:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=602 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Date and time in message style themes
21:15:58 <Mic> Maybe you should consider getting a better OS? :P
21:16:06 <flo> you are on a different OS and different locale
21:18:00 <Mic> Yes, the docs say "Converts a date to a string, returning the "date" portion using the operating system's locale's conventions. ".
21:18:24 <Mic> and that you shouldn't rely on the output having a particular format ..
21:18:57 <Mic> So if your OS/locale combination returns that, then this is your "locale date string"
21:19:41 <Mook_as> possibly via System Preferences, Language & Text, Formats, Dates
21:23:55 <Mic> I guess it would work in German: "Inzwischen ist es: Montag, 31. Oktober 2011".
21:24:08 <Mic> And if you've got no day name .. well, so be it?
21:24:19 <Mic> Good night
21:24:39 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm added attachment 963 to bug 1128.
21:24:40 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 963 on bug 1128.
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21:24:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1128 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, NEW, Contact list CSS inheritance cleanup
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21:47:59 <billysanca> new icon for nightly???
21:52:22 <aleth> what do you have in mind?
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21:55:25 <flo> billysanca: it's just the special halloween branding ;)
21:55:58 <billysanca> Cool! :P
22:02:01 <aleth> seems am missing out as the linux build failed last night...
22:02:20 <flo> aleth: oh, bad luck :-/
22:02:53 <aleth> i guess it decided it would rather be undead
22:03:04 <flo> we enable it for both the 1031 and the 1101 nightlies, so you will still have a change to see it tomorrow :)
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22:13:56 * clokep1 is scared to run |python client.py checkout|
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22:20:46 <flo> ecaron: sourceforge was used as a mirror to host files that we expected to be downloaded a lot at the time of the 1.0 release.
22:21:03 <flo> but then I found that we could do the same on code.google.com, which doesn't display ads, so we switched to that.
22:21:20 <ecaron> can the sf area be nuked?
22:21:43 <flo> however, code.google.com limits the size of the storage area, so I'm not sure we will be able to keep using it
22:21:54 <flo> or maybe we will have to delete old releases from it at some point :-/
22:23:09 <flo> ecaron: I would like if we could hide it somehow
22:23:11 <ecaron> i think if you hit the limit, you just shoot them an email and they'll up it for you
22:23:18 <flo> or make it redirect to the homepage
22:23:48 <flo> they say we can request that, but I'm not sure if they always agree to up the limit / how much more space we can get
22:24:07 <flo> we use ~1GB per release, so the 4GB limit will soon be hit.
22:24:09 <clokep1> They're available on the FTP too, right?
22:24:32 <flo> clokep1: everything is still on our server
22:25:18 <flo> but our server can be slow to access from some places in the world. I would expect Google's servers to handle correctly the selection of a mirror based on the IP :)
22:29:12 <billysanca> flo
22:29:12 <billysanca> wheres "my" pt-BR repository so i can translate Instantbird to my mother language? :P
22:29:43 <flo> it's in the "I'm sorry" department :(
22:31:08 <flo> https://sourceforge.net/projects/instantbird/ that should look a bit better, with a "As of 2011-10-31, this project may now be found at http://www.instantbird.com/." banner
22:34:18 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 964 to bug 1083.
22:34:19 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 964 on bug 1083.
22:34:20 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
22:38:27 <flo> clokep1: why have you decided to put &#169;2007-2011 rather than just 2011 as the content of the copyright year entity?
22:38:46 <clokep1> flo: That's what the old text said.
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22:39:40 <flo> why not: copyrightText2=&#169;2007-&copyrightYear; Contributors [...]?
22:40:07 * flo thinks that if we lose a pt-BR translator, it will be really his fault :(.
22:40:12 <clokep1> Hmmm...Idk, it just made sense to keep the years together.
22:40:36 <flo> I'm wondering if that dtd file shouldn't be somehow generated
22:40:56 <flo> it would be nice to have all the copyright years at a single place
22:41:54 <flo> have you tried putting the entity directly in the xul file?
22:42:16 <clokep1> No, would that be just putting the contents of the dtd at the top?
22:43:13 <flo> if it works, that would be just <!ENTITY copyrightYear         "&#169;2007-2011"> (or <!ENTITY copyrightYear         "2011"> ;)) instead of the <!ENTITY % aboutDialog2DTD SYSTEM "chrome://instantbird/content/aboutDialog2.dtd" > and %aboutDialog2DTD; lines
22:44:13 <-- ecaron has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1)
22:44:52 <clokep1> Ah, OK.
22:44:52 <clokep1> Let me try it
22:46:33 <clokep1> flo: Is there a way to just print something out in a preprocessor?
22:46:47 <flo> what do you mean?
22:47:17 <clokep1> So we could just print that single line out in aboutDialog.xul (the file is already going through the preprocessor?)
22:47:45 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com cancelled review?(florian@instantbird .org) for attachment 964 on bug 1083.
22:47:47 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
22:48:17 <flo> I still don't understand what you mean by "print that single line out"
22:48:22 <Mook_as> #filter substitution ?
22:48:40 <flo> the preprocessor can include or replace things, not "print"
22:48:55 <clokep1> OK. I have no idea how the preprocessor works.
22:49:39 <flo> are you trying to automate the generation of the entity based on another file?
22:50:36 <clokep1> I'm trying to automate the generation of the entity, yes. I did not really think of HOW to do it yet.
22:51:03 <flo> apparently the copyright year appears in 4 places: https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/f586fd4c4b03
22:53:58 <clokep1> Alright.
22:55:01 <flo> I don't think automating that is required to fix that bug ;)
22:56:33 <clokep1> :( I'm not sure I can do it right now.
22:58:34 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 965 to bug 1083.
22:58:36 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 965 on bug 1083.
22:58:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
22:58:40 * clokep1 is now known as clokep
23:01:16 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 965 on bug 1083.
23:01:18 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
23:01:25 <clokep> :)
23:05:38 <flo> Good night :)
23:07:02 <clokep> 'night!
23:10:01 <clokep> Wow. I am very impressed with Mercurial right now!
23:10:13 <clokep> It just updated all of the changes to the layout of our repo with LOTS of local changes.
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23:11:01 <deOmega> hi folks.  I hope all is going well.  Quick question (I hope). 
23:11:12 <clokep> Hey deOmega, hope you're doing OK as well! :)
23:11:16 <clokep> What's going on?
23:11:32 <deOmega> Is there a way I can keep this Halloween icon  as my default? 
23:11:51 <deOmega> clokep: Hi, yes, i have been doing pretty good, thanks
23:12:13 <clokep> I think the branding is chosen at compile time deOmega, so the short answer is "no". The longer answer is "probably". ;)
23:12:41 <deOmega> lol.  OK.  Man, it really looks sexy
23:12:44 <Mook_as> so, if you build instantbird yourself, yes :p
23:12:55 <deOmega> the color  combination that is
23:13:04 <clokep> Yes, I really like it as well. :)
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23:13:18 <deOmega> Mook_as: lol
23:13:57 <deOmega> very very pleasing to the eyes.
23:14:08 <Mook_as> they seem to be from 2008! ( https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/0fa6ea9b96a5 )
23:14:10 <deOmega> Makes me want to marry a witch
23:15:06 <deOmega> I have  seen it before, and loved it, and tried to get it back but my attempts were feeble and futile :)
23:15:51 <Mook_as> looks like it's configure with --with-branding=instantbird/branding/halloween
23:16:22 <aleth> ...cos nightly is alway a little scary ;)
23:16:54 <Mook_as> I suspect you can get _most_ of it (except the app icon) if you hack hard enough at an extension, too
23:18:20 <clokep> My thoughts too.
23:18:27 <clokep> Although you could grab the app icon and make a shortcut with it. ;)
23:19:31 <deOmega> Yeah,  I would have to start a session of school for that. :).  I will say though, i am on windows 7 and my task bar and system tray have all sorts of icons.    For my eyes, this stands out among them all... in a good way
23:20:04 <deOmega> Alright, i wish you guys teh best,  i need to go lay down.  Thanks again for all you are doing.
23:22:06 <-- deOmega has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.2a1pre)
23:23:33 <Mook_as> hmm, in my case it's "sitting around in IRC and saying something pointless once in a while".  I think I can keep doing that.
23:24:27 <clokep> Mook_as: I think you sitll have a bug assigned to you though. ;)
23:24:35 <Mook_as> hehe
23:24:42 * aleth thinks something pointless
23:24:56 * clokep waits for his build to finish.
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