#instantbird log on 10 27 2011

All times are UTC.

00:00:04 <flo> aren't most of them in today's nightly already?
00:00:17 <clokep> So for bug 759, I think we either need to like "freeze" during most of the move or a branch, but how well does Hg handle moves?
00:00:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=759 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Reorganize purplexpcom
00:00:21 <clokep> Oh, are they?
00:00:31 <flo> I wonder if there's a way to get the reporter of bug 1114 (more) involved with the project :-|
00:00:34 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1114 blo, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, IB Cannot Start: 0x8000ffff (NS_ERROR_UNEXPECTED) [purpleICoreService.init]
00:01:18 <flo> how long do we expect that "move" to take?
00:01:22 <flo> how do we decide we are done?
00:01:41 <flo> is it when each file is at a place that makes sense for its current content?
00:02:02 <clokep> That sounds like a good goal to me?
00:02:03 <flo> is it when libpurple is optional and Thunderbird can use chat/ without modification?
00:02:27 <clokep> :-/ I don' tknow. I just think it's better to do what we can do sooner rather than later.
00:02:36 <flo> if we are just moving files around without renaming them (and without changing their destination in omni.jar) it won't break anything
00:02:45 <clokep> Ah, true.
00:03:04 <flo> making that usable in Thunderbird is my #1 priority, because I'm errr... paid for it ;).
00:03:25 <clokep> :P
00:03:29 <clokep> Understandable.
00:04:02 <flo> + having 2/3 of our code in comm-central would be a super helpful argument to argue that Instantbird should become a Mozilla project
00:04:28 <clokep> hahah, yes.
00:04:32 <flo> (and then, we could stop wasting our time with maintaining add-on and crash-stats websites)
00:05:21 <flo> (both of their sites are unmaintainable in the current version we have installed)
00:05:49 <flo> they have both been fully rewritten using different technologies upstream, so we can't cherrypick any fix
00:06:29 <clokep> I didn't realize the crash-stats site was too. :(
00:07:07 <flo> clokep: we are "lucky" with it: the crash reporter hasn't changed, so it's still compatible with the old website :)
00:07:53 <clokep> Ah, nice. :)
00:08:32 <flo> You would certainly have heard about it if we weren't able to process crash reports ;)
00:08:58 <clokep> Right.
00:09:06 <flo> Good night
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00:12:23 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 948 to bug 761.
00:12:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=761 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, JS-Socket fails to properly handle SSL errors
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00:24:22 <clokep> Already 11 bugs fixed!
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00:34:21 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 949 to bug 1083.
00:34:22 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 949 on bug 1083.
00:34:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
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01:25:51 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 950 to bug 683.
01:25:52 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 950 on bug 683.
01:25:54 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
01:30:35 <clokep> So I looked at bug 1050 for...ooh Idk 5 minutes now?
01:30:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1050 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Take account of URL shortening in twitter character count
01:30:43 <clokep> And after reading https://github.com/twitter/twitter-text-js/blob/master/twitter-text.js I'm very uninterested.
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02:12:53 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 951 to bug 1116.
02:12:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1116 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Number of messages in a restored conversation should be limited
02:17:30 <clokep> Btw flo: If you want to start reorganizing files, don't feel bad if you bitrot all my patches. It's fine. :)
02:19:04 <clokep> billysanca: Did anyone (flo) get to your email yet about setting you up with an account for the l10n repo?
02:19:42 <billysanca> nope :(
02:21:03 <clokep> Ah, OK. He was away the past few days. I'll bug him tomorrow (although he'll read this tomorrow and see it most likely. :))
02:25:45 <clokep> Anyway, bed time! I'll make sure he sees it.
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09:08:42 <Mic> flo: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Firefox_9_for_developers is there.
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09:26:31 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1117 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
09:26:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1117 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, No user icons on tooltip for offline contacts
09:30:44 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1118 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
09:30:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1118 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Selected contact list should be scrolled into view when offline contacts are shown/hidden
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10:08:47 <Mic> clokep: someone asked about Steam support, how difficult would it be to tell if http://code.google.com/p/pidgin-opensteamworks/source/browse/trunk/ compiles and works for us?
10:09:41 <Mic> If you judge it might be possible I'll file a bug for it and tell the one we're looking into it?
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10:21:39 <clokep> Mic: I don't know how difficult it would be, the code itself seems awfully simple, but it does require a library I believe.
10:23:28 <clokep> I could try it (it shouldn't take me too long), but not until tonight.
10:23:42 <clokep> I don't have any problem opening an enhancement bug about it regardless of whether it's easy or not.
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11:12:14 <instantbot> New purplexpcom - General bug 1119 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
11:12:18 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1119 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add support for the Steam chat protocol
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11:36:29 <Mic> Bye
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11:53:10 <clokep_work> Thanks Mic! :)
12:05:06 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 1097 to FIXED.
12:05:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1097 nor, --, 1.2, aletheia2, RESO FIXED, Tab complete is case sensitive
12:09:37 <clokep_work> The new tab complete behavior is pretty ideal I have to say. :-D
12:20:47 <flo> :)
12:20:47 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 949 on bug 1083.
12:20:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
12:24:06 <clokep_work> So I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote that comment. :(
12:24:35 <clokep_work> Do we need to worry about that not making sense in some languages (by forcing the copyright before the text)?
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12:25:43 <flo> hmm
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12:25:48 <aleth> :)
12:25:49 <flo> I thought about it, then tried to ignore it
12:25:57 <flo> but yes, we probably should worry about it
12:26:23 <flo> the good solution then is probably to put the copyright year in another entity
12:26:25 <flo> (not localizable)
12:26:57 <flo> a bit like we do for &brandShortName;
12:27:05 <clokep_work> Ah, OK.
12:27:11 <flo> although that brandShortName entity is localizable for a reason I've never understood :(
12:27:23 <clokep_work> How do you make a not localizable entity?
12:27:44 <clokep_work> With a comment saying not to localize it? :P
12:28:04 <flo> that doesn't work
12:28:15 <flo> the point is that the string should not be stored in the locale repository
12:28:20 <flo> otherwise you aren't fixing the bug ;)
12:28:42 <flo> clokep_work: you just put the .dtd file in content/ rather than locale/ ;)
12:29:06 <clokep_work> Ah-ha. :)
12:29:20 <clokep_work> Should we also do that w/ brandShortName?
12:29:45 <flo> I wonder if we can write an entity directly in http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/aboutDialog.xul#45
12:29:51 <flo> rather than in an external dtd file
12:29:57 <flo> that would definitely be easier
12:34:35 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 950 on bug 683.
12:34:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=683 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Handle deleted messages on twitter
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12:38:28 <clokep_work> If that's possible it would be easier.
12:38:29 <flo> I wonder why Adobe thinks it's OK to put a popup in the middle of my screen to make me install a flash update
12:38:44 <clokep_work> Hmm...how'd that report error get in there? I thought I added that after I made the patch, oops.
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13:07:08 <ironhead> is it possible to filter the twitter feed based on one of the listed participants?
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13:07:47 <ironhead> actually, in general it would be a nice feature on group chats of any kind
13:07:52 <aleth> clokep_work: If you minimise the contact window, does the tray icon context menu still appear for you?
13:08:40 <ecaron> aleth: It doesn't for me in 1.1
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13:09:53 <flo> aleth: it should.
13:10:25 <flo> ecaron: I think aleth's question was about a patch from clokep that landed yesterday and is in today's nightly ;)
13:10:37 * ecaron should know better
13:10:57 <aleth> flo: yes it should... 
13:11:17 <aleth> but I doubt it's a regression. ecaron answered that I guess
13:11:34 * ecaron saves the day
13:12:04 <ecaron> instantbot: make me a sandwich
13:12:07 <instantbot> ecaron: Sorry, I've no idea what 'make me a sandwich' might be.
13:12:08 <instantbot> ecaron: What? Make it yourself.
13:12:18 <ecaron> sudo instantbot: make me a sandwich
13:13:51 <ecaron> Boo.
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13:56:22 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1120 filed by ir0nh34d@gmail.com.
13:56:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1120 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Filter messages in a group chat based on participant
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14:09:11 <clokep_work> aleth: If that doesn't work it's not a regression.
14:09:49 <clokep_work> (At least not from my patch. :P)
14:09:53 <clokep_work> Idk if it worked in 1.0 or 1.1, etc.
14:11:33 <clokep_work> But you should file a bug about it.
14:11:35 <clokep_work> I didn't test that.
14:21:22 <FeuerFliege> ecaron: which OS are you using?
14:21:36 <ecaron> Win7x64
14:23:29 <FeuerFliege> me too. The tray icon is shown here, when the contact window is minimized.
14:24:26 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: The question is if the context menu is visible when right clicking.
14:24:38 <flo> hmm, how come I can no longer double click a tweet to reply to it?
14:25:19 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: works, too.
14:26:44 <clokep_work> flo: Did you swap your preference? :)
14:26:57 <clokep_work> Oh wait, is the first action used automatically? I think I put one above the "reply"? :-/
14:27:49 <FeuerFliege> arg, context menu for twitter conversation is really broken.
14:28:13 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: Can you expand on that / file a bug.
14:28:32 <clokep_work> flo: Check if you have a tweet URL in your clipboard. ;)
14:28:56 <clokep_work> http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/ed7ae3c364bc adds that as the first item (since it made sense to me there), perhaps we should be able to choose a default in a different way than what's first?
14:31:49 <flo> clokep_work: I most likely have something in my clipboard, yes :(
14:32:14 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: a.) you can’t google a selected word. Not a big one, but the following is really strange:
14:32:14 <FeuerFliege> b.) 1) select a word in another tab (e.g. irc)
14:32:14 <FeuerFliege> 2) right click (you have now the option to google the selected word)
14:32:14 <FeuerFliege> 3) close context menu
14:32:14 <FeuerFliege> 4) go to twitter tab and right click somewhere in the stream.
14:33:39 <FeuerFliege> ⇒ you get the context menu of the IRC-channel and not the usual twitter context menu.
14:34:44 <flo> FeuerFliege: I can't reproduce that
14:35:10 <FeuerFliege> flo: Well, than i have to try it in safe-mode. brb
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14:39:24 <clokep_work> flo: :( Can we add an isDefault parameter or something?
14:39:55 <flo> maybe
14:40:07 <flo> but how is it obvious from a user point of view which action is the default then?
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14:41:30 <FeuerFliege> flo: cannot reproduce in safe-mode. I will try to find the bad add-on.
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14:44:02 <flo> the link to https://wiki.mozilla.org/IRC#Getting_Started is on planet mozilla today. Maybe it's a good time to edit it? Not sure if we should ask Lukas beforehand
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14:47:43 <FeuerFliege> i found the “add-on” that breaks twitter context menu
14:47:55 <FeuerFliege> it is the german language pack
14:47:58 <FeuerFliege> :(
14:48:32 <FeuerFliege> but how?
14:48:57 <flo> missing strings
14:49:37 <flo> the script updating the en-US repository is currently broken
14:50:09 <flo> at least https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/ed7ae3c364bc and https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/7e4bbbb830b7 added strings which aren't visible in the en-US repository
14:52:00 <FeuerFliege> ah, ok. I checked the en-US yesterday evening and didn’t saw any change since the release.
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14:55:53 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1121 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
14:55:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1121 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, No longer possible to double click a tweet to reply to it
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15:04:21 <flo> we have someone using a nightly who seems to be crashing consistently at shutdown: http://crash-stats.instantbird.com/report/list?product=Instantbird&query_search=signature&query_type=exact&query=&date=&range_value=1&range_unit=weeks&process_type=all&plugin_field=&plugin_query_type=&plugin_query=&do_query=1&signature=purple_blist_node_set_ui_data
15:05:28 <flo> it's obviously bug 1017
15:05:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1017 cri, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Shutdown crash [@ purple_blist_node_set_ui_data ]
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15:13:36 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1122 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
15:13:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1122 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, No context menu on tray icon when contacts window is minimized
15:15:04 <flo> hmm, do you think it will take us less time to reach bug 10000 (when starting to count from bug 1000) than it took us to reach bug 1000? :-D
15:15:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1000 enh, --, 1.1, florian, RESO FIXED, Minimize user interruptions
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15:46:32 <clokep_work> flo: That's my crashes.
15:47:22 <flo> maybe you want to fix the bug then? ;)
15:47:46 <clokep_work> Well, only one is me actually.
15:48:02 <clokep_work> Maybe. :) I can look at it later.
15:48:17 <flo> it may just disappear after splitting core vs libpurple
15:48:33 <flo> as it's related to the order we (un)initialize libpurple vs the list of contacts
15:48:44 <clokep_work> Ah, I see.
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16:54:22 <flo> clokep_work: hmm, shouldn't we avoid that "core" folder, and just put "components" and "modules" directly in chat/ ?
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17:06:52 <clokep_work> Hmmm....I don't really see any reason for it, essentially the entire "chat" folder is the core.
17:08:11 <flo> ok, no more core folder (I've typed it only in a dozen command lines or so, and I already hate it :-D)
17:09:13 <clokep_work> Hahaha, good.
17:10:05 <flo> I wonder how difficult it would be to add a json logger, and make it "coexist" with the current plain text logger.
17:10:49 <flo> so that the log viewer would list both .txt and .json logs (but not if we have both for the exact same log maybe?), but would use the info in the json files to display real conversation views
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17:11:44 <flo> i'll need machine parsable logs sooner rather than later, so that Thunderbird's gloda can index them
17:11:58 <flo> (and if that works well, I guess we will just integrate gloda for the next version of Instantbird :))
17:12:33 <clokep_work> As long as you're not suggesting adding mbox to Instantbird. ;)
17:12:39 <flo> lol
17:12:58 <flo> maybe keep that proposal for April 1st?
17:13:10 <clokep_work> :)
17:13:19 <flo> I wanna read my logs with mork :-P
17:14:12 <flo> potential concern with the JSON format: we will have a parse error if the file doesn't finish correctly
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17:16:05 <clokep_work> Yes. :-/ That would be an issue.
17:16:18 <clokep_work> Would it still be split among multiple files?
17:16:32 <clokep_work> (Reduces your chance of corruption then.)
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17:20:35 <flo> uh, I've just read today's IRC log. I'm sorry about the not-yet-created l10n account :'(
17:20:52 <clokep_work> Bah, I'm sorry I forgot to remind you. :(
17:23:19 <flo> the reason I haven't created it right away is that I wasn't sure of which libpurple strings we wanted to convert/import in there
17:24:57 <clokep_work> 2.10.0 vs. 3.0.0?
17:25:22 <flo> vs the mess we made with sametime/libqq ;)
17:25:40 <clokep_work> Hey now, sametime wasn't a mess...libqq...well yes.
17:26:10 <flo> if I just run the convert script against the current code, it may include the new QQ strings... which won't be in the en-US version :-X
17:27:21 <flo> hmm, well, no, the new strings can't be already translated in upstream libpurple as these files aren't there. We will rather have no qq.properties file at all in the converted version. Which isn't nessarily better (I would rather have the 2.9.* qq.properties file)
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17:33:51 <flo> hmm, can we append a ] at the end of each write to the JSON log, and overwrite it the next time we write a message into the log?
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17:35:43 <flo> that, or do it in a format that is similar to the twitter stream: JSON messages separated with \r characters
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17:39:46 <flo> it's not clear to me if imWindows should stay in instantbird/ (and be renamed to ibConversations) or be moved to core/
17:44:28 <clokep_work> They probably refer to Instantbird windows...
17:47:03 <clokep_work> (So I would think instantbird/)
17:47:07 <clokep_work> Is it core/ or chat/? :P
17:48:49 <flo> chat, sorry
17:51:01 <flo> all contractids contain "instantbird" :-/ ("@instantbird.org/purple/commands-service;1")
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17:56:11 <clokep_work> You could probably change them, would extension use those at all?
17:56:42 <flo> anything using Components.classes needs them
17:57:44 <clokep_work> Break the world and call it 2.0? :-/
17:57:52 <flo> yeah
17:58:00 <flo> without any new feature, we could as well call it 11 :)
17:58:20 <clokep_work> JS IRC & XMPP!
17:58:25 <clokep_work> Should we rename jsProtoHelper btw?
17:58:25 <flo> "cleanup, we removed the dot in the version number that wasn't used for anything"
17:58:31 <clokep_work> To like imJSProtoHelper?
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17:58:49 <clokep_work> OH? i thought it was just a piece of dust on my screen anyway. ;)
17:58:58 <flo> you can drop the "js" I guess :)
17:59:22 <clokep_work> I guess the .jsm extension implies it's JavaScript?
17:59:25 <aleth> but once you have turned it up to 11, where is there left to go? ;)
17:59:47 <flo> aleth: ∞ :)
18:00:07 <clokep_work> Ah-ha.
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18:11:24 * aleth loves nickservkiller
18:12:26 <aleth> Is there some about:config entry to disable version checking of add-ons?
18:13:04 <aleth> (i.e IB version)
18:13:17 <flo> yes
18:13:31 <flo> but I can never remember which one, so you'll have to google for it :-/
18:14:02 <flo> the only binding in instantbird/content that seems reusable is convbrowser.xml
18:14:07 <flo> I thought we had a lot more :-/
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18:16:48 <clokep_work> aleth: It should be extensions.checkCompatibility.1.2a = false
18:16:57 <clokep_work> You might be able to do extensions.checkCompatibility.nightly = false.
18:16:57 <adev> you know, the participant list doesn't look too bad with non-bold font either http://i.imgur.com/qcwxg.png
18:17:12 <adev> or is this due to the particular system font here
18:17:16 <adev> clokep_work: thanks
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18:23:16 <clokep_work> flo: Not even like the contact binding or anything? I mean it's all "reusable" depending how closely another application wants to match things.
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19:33:03 <flo> clokep_work: well, the contact binding is linked quite directly with the group binding and the buddy binding.
19:33:16 <flo> so to reuse them you have to have the same behavior, with the same drag&drop actions, ...
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19:35:30 <Mic> Hi
19:36:09 <Mic> Yes, I also ran into the problem with JSON files being corrupt after crashes and the sort
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19:37:59 <Mic> Writing several logs should be easy but what about reading them? Does it make sense to specify the type of log that you'd like to receive?
19:44:58 <flo> how does this sound for a first move? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1033
19:46:15 <flo> of course, if this looks good, then I've a lot of buildsystem hacking to do ;)
19:48:58 <flo> Mic: mabe we can just add a type attribute in http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/components/ibILogger.idl#47 indicating the mime type of the log?
19:49:59 <clokep_work> I was wondering what you'd do with the overrides! :)
19:50:14 <flo> clokep_work: put them in a lonely corner :-P
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19:50:56 <Mic> So we'd have a logger component that forwards all log writes to all components in our Logger category and fetches log reads from the one that has the correct mime type
19:51:18 <flo> clokep_work: I'm not sure about the chat/themes/prpl folder, maybe I should just have put these 3 icons directly in themes/
19:51:33 <flo> or maybe in themes/icons/, for consistency with protocols/name/icons/
19:51:48 <flo> hmm, I forgot to move the facebook/gtalk icons
19:51:49 <Mic> flo, clokep_work: what is the meaning of the exclamation marks/question marks ?
19:52:10 <clokep_work> Overall it seems OK. Wll look closer later.
19:52:49 <flo> Mic: ! -> removed, ? -> new file
19:53:00 <flo> (these are all file moves anyway, I've just not run hg addremove yet)
19:54:03 <flo> Mic: isn't it easier to do everything in the existing component?
19:54:04 <Mic> Ah! Seems I'm a bit slow :D
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19:56:09 <Mic> I'm not sure what you have in mind for the logger exactly... in case of doubt your solution is most likely better ;)
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19:56:59 <flo> Mic: what I have in mind is "getting something that works ASAP with minimal code changes"
19:57:42 <flo> where "works" means: 1. no regression compared to the current system 2. Machine parsable. 3. Old logs are still viewable as well (or as poorly) as currently
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19:59:46 <flo> Mic: if you have something that mostly works already, it could be nice to attach it somewhere ;)
20:03:02 <Mic> I only changed the log writing to JSON (trying to make the file contain an array of purpleIMessages). If the application crashes, the closing bracket is missing since I'm inserting the commas between the items and the opening/closing brackets manually, not during JSONification (great word :D)
20:03:10 <Mic> It doesn't read logs yet.
20:03:36 <flo> ok
20:03:44 <Mic> Even without pretty-printing the output, the logs are ten times as big as the old ones. :(
20:03:46 <flo> so what about just using \r characters instead of the commas?
20:03:58 <flo> can you pastebin an example?
20:04:09 <Mic> I don't have it on this computer, sorry.
20:04:11 <flo> and the code writing the JSON? :)
20:04:29 <flo> what's making the logs that big?
20:04:43 <flo> (tomorrow or even next week is ok for the pastebins :))
20:05:00 <flo> I've still a lot of work to do on the separate libpurple thing ;).
20:05:55 <Mic> Let me try something .. 
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20:07:34 <flo> maybe you are logging lots of useless things?
20:08:01 <flo> we definitely don't want to log all the attributes, only those that have a non default value :)
20:08:37 <flo> and originalMessage is what's really the message, the .message property may have been messed up by add-ons/text modifiers/whatever
20:09:50 <Mic> I'm not filtering anything yet.
20:10:04 <flo> so don't worry about the size then :)
20:10:06 <Mic> So yes, lot's of useless things in there
20:10:42 <flo> I'm a bit concerned that it won't be possible any more to grep log files if we move to JSON by default
20:11:16 <flo> but maybe if we ensure that the first fields logged for each line are the timestamp, the author and the message text, it will still be OK to grep
20:17:29 <Mic> I need to go, good night
20:17:39 <flo> Mic: Good night :)
20:18:18 <Mic> I'll pastebin the component (it's ugly, you've been warned;) and the output before next week
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20:27:25 <aleth> flo: any thoughts on the non-bold text in http://i.imgur.com/qcwxg.png ?
20:28:04 <flo> I think I would prefer something in between that and the bold version
20:28:09 <flo> what do you think about it?
20:28:19 <flo> maybe we can get something nice with a text shadow? :)
20:28:43 <aleth> I just tried it because you mentioned the bold text yesterday, and it made me realise how unusual that was
20:28:57 <aleth> I quite like it; not completely sure which I prefer as it may depend on the font
20:30:52 <aleth> Do you have an example for the kind of shadow you are thinking of? (My associations are with horrible faux 3d styling and I doubt you mean that)
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20:38:05 <flo> not really. Just something that would make the font a little bolder without tripling the width of each line
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20:39:22 <aleth> I don't know of anything in between bold and normal :( those are separate fonts. Ok demi-bold exists but hardly for system fonts ;)
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20:45:55 <aleth> I will try setting only active participants to bold
20:46:45 <flo> hmm, we don't have a single screenshot of the mac nicklist on the website :(
20:47:35 <flo> aleth: http://i.imgur.com/yRpOZ.png
20:47:54 <flo> there's a shadow on the labels of the nicklist and on the tab titles
20:47:58 <flo> (on mac it's a white shadow)
20:48:41 <aleth> Thanks!
20:48:51 <aleth> Here's the active-only-in-bold http://i.imgur.com/5okPB.png
20:49:27 <flo> added benefit: there's a different even for color blind users
20:49:38 <flo> *difference
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20:50:11 <aleth> you mean with the bold/normal combo?
20:51:00 <flo> yes
20:51:19 <aleth> It looks surprisingly good at first glance
20:51:34 <aleth> (imho)
20:52:28 <aleth> I will try the white "embossed effect" shadow, but that would require setting the background color to something non-white on all OS
20:52:29 <flo> ship it? ;)
20:53:00 <flo> (that was in reply to "It looks surprisingly good")
20:53:20 <aleth> OK... it's good to have a second pair of eyes first :)
20:53:47 <aleth> btw what do you think of (the experimental) status icon substitute on that screenshot?
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20:54:37 <flo> for an addon? :)
20:54:59 <flo> (I'm not a fan of it, sorry :()
20:54:59 <aleth> yes
20:55:11 <aleth> though actually I don't like it yet either
20:55:21 <aleth> hence experimental
20:55:23 <flo> what about showing the active count instead of the total?
20:55:39 <flo> so that it actually brings additional info compared to the participants count which is already displayed?
20:56:10 <aleth> My original idea was to make it clickable to toggle the sidebar, then it wouldn't be duplicate
20:56:35 <aleth> But that's another idea to try
20:56:43 <flo> it should be closed to that sidebar for that
20:56:50 <aleth> Yes :(
20:57:05 <aleth> That's one of the main reasons why I don't like it yet
20:57:17 <flo> put it on the other side, with a width equivalent to what the sidebar will have if you open it
20:57:45 <flo> and display "3 / 45" (<active count> / <total>) maybe?
20:57:59 <flo> and a tooltip explaining the meaning when hovering it
20:58:47 <aleth> That might work
20:59:04 <aleth> Though there is already the chat-type icon over there which one should keep
20:59:22 <aleth> It would have to look good together...
20:59:25 <flo> it's the IRC icon
20:59:40 <flo> it can (should?) be changed
21:00:07 <aleth> But should it be changed to a participant count?
21:00:13 <flo> no
21:00:27 <aleth> That's what I thought too
21:00:33 <flo> changed to reflect "IRC" rather than "oh, 2 bubbles"
21:01:18 <aleth> not easy to come up with, unless one does the MSN thing (multiple heads) I guess
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21:04:59 <flo> Good night :)
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21:07:10 <instantbirduser-frk> hey everyone
21:07:19 <instantbirduser-frk> just testing out instantbird
21:07:49 <instantbirduser-frk> anyone having difficulty with facebook caht?
21:07:52 <instantbirduser-frk> er... chat?
21:08:57 <aleth> I don't use FB myself, but I think there is an answer to the most common issues in the FAQ
21:09:03 <aleth> http://www.instantbird.com/faq.html
21:09:35 <instantbirduser-frk> got it -- thanks
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21:12:48 <instantbirduser-frk> As the program is portable, i put together a quickie review over at portablefreeware
21:13:03 <instantbirduser-frk> if anyone is interested
21:13:03 <instantbirduser-frk> http://www.portablefreeware.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=42204#p42204
21:13:04 <aleth> sounds great!
21:13:14 <instantbirduser-frk> :)
21:13:27 <aleth> I am sure the feedback will be appreciated
21:16:15 <aleth> What do you mean with "message noise"?
21:18:21 <instantbirduser-frk> yeah i'll fix that
21:18:30 <instantbirduser-frk> what i meant was the notification sound when you get a msg
21:18:39 <aleth> You can turn off sound in the Preferences (and I think more fine-grained controls are in the works, possibly as an add-on, I don't know exactly)
21:19:44 <instantbirduser-frk> there's a sound controls alpha plugin
21:19:45 <instantbirduser-frk> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/306
21:19:52 <instantbirduser-frk> *shrug
21:22:48 <instantbirduser-frk> I've been using Miranda IM to this point but much preferring instantbird
21:23:06 <aleth> :)
21:23:22 <instantbirduser-frk> so (if the devs read this at some point) hope my my comments don't come across as too critical
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21:23:56 <aleth> The devs read the logs of this channel, so they will probably see it ;)
21:24:02 <instantbirduser-frk> very cool
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21:24:30 <aleth> Actually I may be wrong but afaik all the things you mention as 'cons' are on the radar in some form or another
21:24:40 <instantbirduser-frk> sweet
21:24:53 <aleth> at least if I understand correctly...
21:25:24 <aleth> Though if someone would volunteer to write OTR or GPG plugins I am sure that would be much appreciated ;)
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21:26:08 <instantbirduser-frk> nothing on the roadmap https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Roadmap but those topics are pretty big and most of my stuff is minor
21:26:52 <aleth> I don't know how complete that is, there are lots of things discussed in bugzilla too
21:27:13 <instantbirduser-frk> oh ok
21:27:13 <instantbirduser-frk> yea
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22:10:06 <clokep> instantbirduser-frk: Yeah the message sound isn't ideal, we'd like to have "sounds themes" at some point, but hasn't been looked at it.
22:10:15 <clokep> Please don't blame us for Facebook's crappy user experience though!
22:10:42 <clokep> The add-ons site is integrated the same way Mozilla's is, there's some issues with searching, but it's integrated.
22:10:52 <clokep> (Tools > Add-ons)
22:11:36 <clokep> It's possible to make an OTR plug-in, but no one has yet. Do people really use GPG for chat? (o_O)
22:11:59 <clokep> (And 43.4 MB of RAM really is nothing for most fairly up to date systems.)
22:12:25 <clokep> But thanks for the feedback.
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22:26:01 <instantbirduser-frk> Back... sorry if i missed something since your last msg
22:26:23 <instantbirduser-frk> the integrated add-ons item in Mozilla allows you to surf their add ons all in one window
22:26:31 <instantbirduser-frk> instantbird gives you a web address
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22:26:42 <instantbirduser-frk> as to GPG: no, nobody uses GPG
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22:26:46 <clokep> By "Mozilla" do you mean "Firefox"?
22:26:55 <instantbirduser-frk> its a bad suggestion
22:26:56 <clokep> I'm pretty sure we have the same user experience as Thunderbird though.
22:26:57 <instantbirduser-frk> yeah
22:27:14 <clokep> Ah, but you /can/ install extensions from the add-ons UI by searching. It could definitely use a little work though. :(
22:27:30 <instantbirduser-frk> i think they *just recently* integrated it into thunderbird
22:27:34 <clokep> Ah, good to know that no one uses GPG. :) That would warp my mind a bit.
22:27:51 <instantbirduser-frk> i know some serious paranoid security types
22:27:58 <aleth> Yes, that would be eccentric
22:27:59 <instantbirduser-frk> and none of them ever use GPG/PGP
22:28:20 <clokep> Ah, they must have added it recently...although I don't install new add-ons all that often in Thunderbird. :)
22:28:21 <instantbirduser-frk> yeah but its open source, reasonably well accepted, and high security
22:28:29 <instantbirduser-frk> SOMEone would use it *shrug*
22:28:30 <clokep> We should probably pop it up in a window though.
22:28:36 <instantbirduser-frk> *nods
22:28:56 <clokep> OTR is good, unfortunately a lot of people don't understand what security it actually provides and what it doesn't. :-/
22:29:14 <instantbirduser-frk> OTR is great tho ... its integrated by default with Adium, works easily with Pidgin users, and is simple but high security
22:29:19 <clokep> (And you need the other end point to also use it, usually meaning explaing to less tech savvy people how ot set it up. :P)
22:29:35 <instantbirduser-frk> Adium handles it pretty well
22:29:52 <instantbirduser-frk> its just a pop up window that asks "user wants to have a private convo" or something similar and you just say yes or no
22:30:06 <instantbirduser-frk> Pidgin is a little more complex
22:31:24 <clokep> Mmhmm. :)
22:31:31 <clokep> Definitely want it to be simple!
22:31:36 <instantbirduser-frk> anyway it would go with the program goals of "just working" as well as user privacy
22:31:47 <clokep> I'm glad you noticed that we use SSL by default though, a lot of people seem to gloss over that.
22:31:56 <instantbirduser-frk> cheers
22:32:53 <instantbirduser-frk> yeah ever since that facebook password hack, everyone cares about that kind of stuff now
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22:33:06 <instantbirduser-frk> the one integrated into firefox
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22:35:28 <instantbirduser-frk> there's some interest (and therefore potentially some code) out there to integrate OTR with Firefox
22:35:30 <instantbirduser-frk> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2708142
22:35:35 <instantbirduser-frk> for web-based chats
22:36:18 <instantbirduser-frk> but i'm aware there's probably a long list of other higher priority additions your team is interested in working on
22:36:38 <clokep> You mean the firesheep stuff?
22:36:46 <instantbirduser-frk> i just know the chat services are all mining their users for consumer data and it would be nice to cut them out of that
22:37:05 <clokep> We recently added the hooks so it could be done easily, so someone could definitley make an extension to do it.
22:37:15 <instantbirduser-frk> yea
22:37:20 <clokep> You "know" this? How? I have never heard that.
22:37:21 <instantbirduser-frk> cool
22:37:48 <instantbirduser-frk> I'll dig up some links
22:38:07 <clokep> Is there actually a link in there to an extension or just people interested in it?
22:38:08 <instantbirduser-frk> but IM networks aren't cheap to run and they've got to make money somehow
22:38:20 <clokep> Ah I see you said just interest, never mind. :)
22:38:28 <instantbirduser-frk> knowing what people are exchanging and selling that to advertisers / marketing types is one way to make back the money
22:40:57 <clokep> I understand the concepts. :P I've just never heard the claim that they're actually using the data.
22:41:07 <clokep> I mean it would make sense. Just never seen articles, etc. about it.
22:42:01 <clokep> Anyway thanks for the feedback, but I need to go make dinner. :)
22:43:15 <instantbirduser-frk> well, most of the articles talk about google's overall services -- not just instant messaging
22:43:18 <instantbirduser-frk> but for example:
22:43:23 <instantbirduser-frk> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8836415/Google-is-selling-your-privacy-for-a-price.html
22:43:39 <instantbirduser-frk> the more information they can get about an individual, the more specific they can be with online searches and targeted ads, which is most of their business
22:43:44 <clokep> Ah, yeah. Well if you want privacy, don't use Google or Facebook.
22:44:02 <instantbirduser-frk> well, that's the thing: i have little doubt yahoo and aol sell the information in the same way
22:44:15 <aleth> Use XMPP :)
22:44:24 <instantbirduser-frk> its one of the reasons many hosting services offer XMPP servers
22:44:26 <instantbirduser-frk> hehe yea
22:45:34 <instantbirduser-frk> but tools like OTR will allow you to enjoy the speed and reliability of Google's servers without having to give them any actual data
22:45:49 <instantbirduser-frk> and if they're easy enough (and instantbird is super easy) then a lot more people will use them
22:47:57 <instantbirduser-frk> there's an "Ordering Pizza" thing that I'm fond of that sort of explains why companies knowing all your data and preferences is good for them and not you: http://www.aclu.org/ordering-pizza
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22:50:42 <instantbirduser-frk> did some digging -- here's an article about IM services and privacy http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9962106-38.html
22:50:47 <instantbirduser-frk> As you might expect, Facebook is the worst about it
22:51:50 <aleth> lol facebook
22:52:02 <instantbirduser-frk> hehehe
22:52:06 <aleth> yeah...
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23:19:09 <instantbirduser-frk> anyway, i'm off -- thanks for the responses aleth and clokep
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