#instantbird log on 10 17 2011

All times are UTC.

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08:36:08 <Mic> Good morning
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09:30:12 <aleth> flo: If bug 1074 were to be r+, shouldn't it be in 1.1 since it is required to make conversations on hold look right with the default styles?
09:30:15 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1074 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, NEW, Default message styles lack context message support and override font choice
09:30:36 <aleth> Good morning Mic :)
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10:32:01 <flo> hello :)
10:32:20 <flo> do we know how well the release candidates have been tested?
10:36:13 <clokep> I've had a few people try it and haven't heard of any issues.
10:37:18 <clokep> Nor seen any myself. :)
10:37:24 <clokep> When I was playing with it...
10:40:25 <flo> so I can assume it works on Windows? ;)
10:41:52 <clokep> For my huge sampling of like 3 people. :P
10:42:28 <clokep> And I'm sure Mic has tested it as well.
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10:42:43 <flo> really? How do you know that? :-D
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10:44:23 <FeuerFliege> flo: I got some l10n feedback from Mic. Nothing huge.
10:44:31 <FeuerFliege> bug 1077
10:44:34 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1077 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Suggested changes for german locale (for RC 1.1)
10:45:00 <flo> FeuerFliege: any reason why you haven't resolved the bug as FIXED, if the changes are commited?
10:46:04 <clokep> flo: That's how I know that ^ ^. :P
10:46:11 <FeuerFliege> I thought I did.
10:46:33 <flo> clokep: that wasn't a serious question
10:46:53 <clokep> Ah OK. :(
10:47:08 <flo> FeuerFliege: have you seen bug 1082?
10:47:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1082 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, German download button labels overflowing the button's dimensions
10:47:23 <FeuerFliege> » You have to specify a comment when changing the status of a bug from NEW to RESOLVED. «
10:47:36 <instantbot> do.not.deliver@gmx.de set the Resolution field on bug 1077 to FIXED.
10:47:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1077 min, --, ---, nobody, RESO FIXED, Suggested changes for german locale (for RC 1.1)
10:47:46 <flo> clokep: I thought you were thinking about bug 1078 though.
10:47:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1078 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "Search add-ons" tab looks bad with the German locale
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10:49:24 <FeuerFliege> flo: I didn’t looked through them yet.
10:51:03 <Mic> I haven't found any other problems with the german RC, flo.
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10:51:45 <FeuerFliege> I didn’t not realized that bug 1078 is caused by the language pack
10:51:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1078 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "Search add-ons" tab looks bad with the German locale
10:52:53 <Mic> German words and sentences are pretty long, that's why e.g. Microsoft has (had?) the german localization team in Redmond and not in Germany (in contrast to other localization teams). To have them close to see if everything fits into dialogs and labels.
10:53:18 <Mic> A sort of "If it works with german, it will with other languages too" attitude.
10:53:45 <Mic> Maybe we should do similar testing?
10:53:55 <flo> can the string in the download button be shortened?
10:54:27 <flo> Mic: we would also need people to actually report bugs, rather than assume others will do. And preferrably more than a day before the release.
10:54:43 <flo> I've just tested a french RC on Windows. Some strings are too long and cutting things in the preference window
10:54:59 <flo> if we had known before, we could have investigated and probably made these strings wrap.
10:55:34 <FeuerFliege> flo: I can shorten the text for the button, but it was the same text as it for firefox
10:55:52 <Mic> I almost never come to instantbird.com, I would have reported it otherwise already.
10:56:14 <clokep> If the button is made w/ CSS...can't it be coded to stretch to fit?
10:57:28 <flo> I would like that button to have a variable width, depending on its content
10:57:42 <flo> but currently the background is an image, so that doesn't work too well
10:59:32 <clokep> Ah, I see. :(
11:01:54 <flo> "(C) 2007-2010" in the about dialog :(
11:03:08 <flo> we should get rid of that string: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/aboutDialog.dtd#9
11:03:41 <flo> it's stupid that translators have to update it every year (and obviously the French translator can't remember to do so)
11:04:17 <clokep> File a bug so we can do it for 1.2? :)
11:04:37 <flo> yeah...
11:05:44 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1083 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
11:05:48 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1083 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, The copyright year shouldn't be localizable
11:06:11 <clokep> And changing the button into CSS...we do have random web devs that seem to come by asking what they can do to help out. :-D
11:06:36 <flo> things seem to work right with the french version if I ignore things that look broken
11:06:49 * clokep is late.
11:06:50 <clokep> Bye!
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11:07:02 <flo> we definitely need to think about a better QA plan someday
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11:16:32 <instantbot> do.not.deliver@gmx.de set the Resolution field on bug 1082 to FIXED.
11:16:34 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1082 min, --, ---, nobody, RESO FIXED, German download button labels overflowing the button's dimensions
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11:20:07 <FeuerFliege> I don‘t know how to fix bug 1078, text to the right doesn’t look too wide and how text can change the background color …
11:20:09 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1078 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "Search add-ons" tab looks bad with the German locale
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11:23:32 <FeuerFliege> background is wrong in en-US too, but the right column is far too wide. But there is mor than enough place for the text, I don’t  know why the column gets so big.
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11:30:13 <aleth> If nightly==1.1rc then I guess I have tested it on Linux...
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11:36:16 <FeuerFliege> rc != nightly. But there shouldn’t be to many differences
11:39:13 * aleth goes and installs rc
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11:42:35 <FeuerFliege> re: bug 1078. Same error exists in firefox, but is not so obvious there
11:42:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1078 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "Search add-ons" tab looks bad with the German locale
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12:01:04 <flo> I've just read the log. aleth: it's definitely something we would have taken for 1.1 if it had been ready ~4 days before. At this point I won't hold the release for it.
12:03:21 <aleth> and there I was trying to get it fixed in time on saturday night ;)
12:03:22 <aleth>  no worries :)
12:04:01 <flo> saturday was already too late, rc had already been produced
12:04:05 <aleth> I know...
12:04:37 <aleth> It's a shame the problem wasn't spotted earlier; I guess no one using nightlies uses the alternative styles...
12:04:57 <flo> and I think it will be r+ by the way :). I'm just not sure of why you changed a color in simple/Dark.css which you hadn't changed in the previous iteration.
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12:11:37 <aleth> flo: To increase the contrast. For similar reasons there is a hint of blue in the context message colour. But someone else should check the 'look' I suppose
12:12:28 <aleth> That goes for all the styles of course
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12:14:46 <clokep_work> Instead of making it blue...wouldn't it make more sense to just decrease the opacity?
12:14:58 <clokep_work> All colors would then maintain their coloring.
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12:18:30 <aleth> clokep_work: The blueish tint is only in the simple style. There you really only have the text colour to play with. Reducing the opacity is essentially the same thing in that case. The colours have to play together because there are no context event messages
12:19:41 <aleth> But I agree, one could go for an intermediate shade of gray of course if that's what is preferred.
12:21:26 <aleth> Or go the opacity route if one would like the nick colours to also be affected... (I was trying to keep Simple as simple as possible)
12:24:36 <clokep_work> I was suggesting opacity to affect an incoming text color (as flo brought up at some point this weekend).
12:24:55 <clokep_work> I don't see how reducing the opacity is the same thing as a blueish tint.
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12:25:21 <aleth> Oh, I meant it is the same in the sense that for the Simple style the only thing it will affect is the text colour
12:26:34 <aleth> Feel free to improve on what I did :)
12:29:02 <clokep_work> Ah, OK. :)
12:29:36 <clokep_work> Personally I would prefer gray over blue, blue+bold is actually used as "new" in a lot of places on Windows I think.
12:32:14 <clokep_work> I should probably comment on the bug. ;)
12:34:06 <aleth> Oh, I did not know that. Interesting. Maybe try the patch and see if it is confusing? My goal was to make it easy to distinguish visually event/context/normal messages at a glance without making any text colour too light.
12:43:21 <clokep_work> I'll try it.
12:43:24 <clokep_work> I understand the goal. :)
12:44:09 <clokep_work> Btw can you please give text descriptions when changing styling like this? :) (I.e. instead of "this patch changes the styling for context messages" use "this patch makes the styling for context messages xyz") so we can verify end results, etc.
12:46:21 <aleth> clokep_work: No problem, I'll do that next time. I did all those styles in a bit of a hurry because I wasn't aware the RC had already been finalized (since the nightly had not updated to it - a misunderstanding on my part)
12:46:34 <clokep_work> Ah, understandable. :)
12:46:39 <clokep_work> Yeah we'll get it into 1.2 though! :)
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13:24:47 <flo> aleth: by the way, when I said "I think it will be r+ by the way :).", I was talking about the code itself. I haven't checked the appearance yet.
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15:02:22 <clokep_work> I find it weird having four digit bugs in Instantbird. :P
15:07:25 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: as long there is no four digit number of *open* bugs ^^
15:09:20 <clokep_work> Hah. :) Yes.
15:16:31 <FeuerFliege> is there already a ›always on top‹ bug?
15:17:26 <clokep_work> I think so, but I'm not positive.
15:27:36 <FeuerFliege> bug 346
15:27:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Buddy list always on top
15:37:57 <clokep_work> flo: Are we doing a weekly meeting today or skipping it per the release?
15:38:16 <flo> I think we are :)
15:38:25 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: Yes, that's an always on top bug.
15:38:36 <flo> if only to discuss what's left to do for the release / what we want to do immediately after it
15:39:04 <flo> I had completely forgotten about it, but it's in my calendar, so a popup would have reminded me in 10 minutes or so :)
15:39:19 <clokep_work> Yes, in my calendar too. :)
15:39:28 <clokep_work> (So people don't try to schedule me in meetings. ;))
15:39:43 <FeuerFliege> one instantbird user more :) Nice to have a IM which uses the native Windows keyboard API.
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16:02:24 <clokep_work> Should we start up then?
16:02:25 <Mic> Hi
16:02:29 <flo> yes https://etherpad.mozilla.org/instantbird-weekly-meeting-20111017
16:02:56 <FeuerFliege> Moin
16:03:25 <Mic> Rather gud'nabend ;)
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16:04:20 <Mic> If I recall correctly there wasn't much discussion on IRC during the last meeting, was it?
16:04:32 <flo> right
16:04:51 <flo> I've put some points in the pad already
16:05:32 <flo> not sure if I missed anything we have done since the last meeting
16:06:20 * FeuerFliege is now known as TestFliege
16:06:34 * TestFliege is now known as FeuerFliege
16:07:10 <clokep_work> I think that covers it all.
16:07:28 <Mic> That's definitely not etherpad-worthy but I've started to turn some of the things I did over the last time into patches or WIPs at least
16:07:43 <flo> :)
16:07:52 <flo> are they going to appear in bugzilla soon? :)
16:07:53 <clokep_work> "over the last time"?
16:08:18 <flo> ?
16:08:23 <Mic> I meant during the last weeks
16:08:30 <clokep_work> Oh OK. Awesome.
16:08:44 <flo> :)
16:09:23 <flo> do we have volunteers to prepare the blog posts for tomorrow?
16:09:27 <clokep_work> I've been working on JS-IRC again a bit, although I have frustrating connection issues (kind of related to the status changing issues we had with Twitter), that I feel like each protocol shouldn't have to reimplement.
16:09:32 <Mic> I've looked at Personas for example which is still nothing that is going to be ready anytime soon but I'll attach what I have so far soon
16:09:44 <flo> or is it too late to blog about convs on hold before the release, and should we keep that for a day or two after it?
16:09:53 <clokep_work> I think we should post it a day or two after.
16:10:13 <flo> ok
16:10:24 <flo> that post probably should have some screenshots in it (if we want people to notice it)
16:10:50 <flo> I'm a bit afraid that people won't be excited by 1.1 if we can't show clearly what's new / how it's going to change their abits
16:11:20 <Mic> Should these screenshots be localized?
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16:11:37 <flo> Mic: the blog isn't localized in general (currently, at least)
16:11:40 <clokep_work> I agree, that definitely needs screenshots.
16:12:01 <flo> our last attempts to make journalists talk about us didn't seem to be a good use of our time, so are we relying only on luck this time to get 1.1 noticed?
16:12:23 <Mic> I need to change computers, brb
16:12:25 <FeuerFliege> do we need new win7 screenshots for the buddylist window?
16:12:46 <clokep_work> Do we want to contact journalists every time? If we're releasing often they might not be interested if we don't have major changes afloat.
16:13:15 <flo> Good point. But what's going to be a "major change worth contacting them" then?
16:13:35 <FeuerFliege> flo: 2.0 :)
16:13:39 <clokep_work> :-/ I don't know. I know I had some friends install the RC and I got a "It's not different"
16:13:40 <flo> FeuerFliege: is there something that has visibly changed apart from the conversations on hold?
16:13:54 <FeuerFliege> flo: i don’t think so
16:14:03 <flo> clokep_work: if we don't show anything new, it's definitely not different.
16:14:11 <flo> FeuerFliege: so no new screenshots :).
16:14:31 <flo> so in this case are we targetting only existing users to make them more happy?
16:14:32 <clokep_work> I think FeuerFliege Was referring to screenshots for the blog?
16:14:38 <FeuerFliege> but I think conv on hold is huge, it made IRC really useable.
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16:15:08 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: no matter for what reason. If we make screenshots they should be used for both
16:15:28 <flo> yes, conv on hold (especially with the "hide autojoins" and the "nickserv killer" addons) and tab complete make IRC really usable. 
16:15:34 <flo> but maybe we could post that on the blog later
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16:15:42 <flo> "hey, did you know Instantbird is a great IRC client?"
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16:16:38 <FeuerFliege> flo: are the addons at addons.instantbird.com yet?
16:16:39 <clokep_work> That would be a good post I think. :)
16:16:46 <flo> with 1.1, twitter is also becoming usable with reply, retweet, (un)follow, username completion
16:16:56 <flo> FeuerFliege: no :(
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16:18:56 <flo> if we feel the new version brings major changes to us, but to users it feels exactly like before, something is probably wrong somewhere in our communication ;).
16:19:31 <clokep_work> The users I handed it off to don't really follow too much about Instantbird except what annoys them, and then theya nnoy me. :P
16:20:49 <clokep_work> Conversations on Hold is great for our users that use IRC/XMPP/Twitter, but for the "casual" user, that might not be common.
16:20:53 <flo> so our key message for the release is "Instantbird 1.1 is much more usable for Twitter and IRC."
16:21:02 <clokep_work> Yes.
16:21:04 <FeuerFliege> flo: yes
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16:21:07 <flo> we can't really say "will interrupt you less often", as it depends on add-ons :-/
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16:21:35 <clokep_work> "has the potential to" ;)
16:21:37 <flo> hmm, it crashes less, too.
16:21:49 <Mic1> Do we need to compile, write and  and translate (?) this short list of features for the update-window/dialog that we had last time?
16:21:51 <FeuerFliege> i hope both addons will make it to instantbird source someday
16:21:52 <flo> hah "it has the potential to not interrupt you" = it will interrupt you ;)
16:22:10 <Mic1> Or is the update not going to have that?
16:22:19 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: But they might not really be applicable to everyone. :(
16:22:31 <clokep_work> Mic1 The update short list is actually checked into the website already I believe.
16:22:31 <flo> Mic1: I would like the 1.0 -> 1.1 update to not have that dialog. Just update, damn it!
16:22:55 <flo> if some users are stuck on 0.2 for some reason, they will see that window, but if they haven't updated to 1.0, I don't see why they would update to 1.1 either
16:23:17 <clokep_work> Mic1: http://hg.instantbird.org/websites/www.instantbird.com/rev/4a08fabcc043#l8.3
16:23:55 <flo> clokep_work: "they might not really be applicable to everyone." this is the part we need to figure out before integrating them: how could they get in the way of people who don't need/want them? If they can't, we can just ship the feature by default.
16:24:02 <Mic1> Thanks, clokep_work
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16:24:40 <clokep_work> flo: I agree! I'm hoping to make NickServKiller unnecessary with protocol level changes maybe? But we'll see.
16:24:53 <flo> sure
16:25:00 <flo> there's still hide auto-joins ;)
16:25:21 <flo> Do Not Disturb would also be nice by default
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16:26:03 <FeuerFliege> hide autojoin chatrooms may hide real contacts, if there are many and the window is big enough.
16:26:06 <flo> anything else related to the upcoming release? It seems we still have a lot of work to do :-/
16:26:36 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: It doesn't hide contacts, only chats.
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16:27:02 <clokep_work> flo: I think we're good.
16:27:12 <clokep_work> Would someone have time to write the blog post for the conversations on hold?
16:27:30 <flo> if we aren't publishing it before the release, there's no rush anyway
16:27:36 <clokep_work> Ah, you're right!
16:28:04 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: I meant the contacts are not visible and you have to scroll if there are many autojoin rooms
16:28:18 <flo> we need to find someone with some enthusiasm to share for the release announcement post :)
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16:29:06 <clokep_work> Yes. :)I can do it, but I'd prefer not to as I'll just end up reusing a lot of the release notes. :(
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16:29:36 <flo> I may try, but I'm rarely enthusiast about features I've used for weeks already :-D
16:29:53 <flo> time to discuss 1.2?
16:30:53 <FeuerFliege> ok
16:31:10 <Mic1> The overflowing download button on the german website went unnoticed for month if I'm not mistaken
16:31:39 <flo> Mic1: or was noticed by several people who didn't care to report it
16:31:41 <Mic1> It's quite visible and we neither received a bug report nor noticed ourselves. That's bad in my opinion :(
16:32:01 <flo> our QA story is bad in general :(
16:32:06 <FeuerFliege> My fault was, that i didn’t used the default fonts
16:32:15 <flo> and even worse about localized stuff
16:32:26 <Mic1> FeuerFliege: in your webbrowser?
16:32:31 <FeuerFliege> yes
16:32:51 <Mic1> I think it has to look ok no matter which font someone uses
16:32:58 <flo> FeuerFliege: it's not your fault. I would bet several other locales are in the same case
16:33:52 <Mic1> Wasn't there other things that broke and we didn't know for a while?
16:34:19 <Mic1> The focus problem?
16:34:32 <flo> the pref dialog on the French locale is IMHO currently broken on Windows/Linux.
16:34:50 <Mic1> flo: do we have a bug about this already?
16:35:08 <flo> I sometimes test the french localized builds (always on Mac of course) and yell at the translator, but in this case I noticed it only this morning
16:35:14 <flo> Mic1: I don't think so.
16:35:32 <flo> I usually don't file bugs for translation issues, just email the translator directly so that it gets fixed
16:35:45 <flo> (in most cases there's only one person who can fix it anyway :-/)
16:36:15 <Mic1> Bugs aren't a bad way to make sure that something isn't forgotten in my opinion
16:36:36 <FeuerFliege> A part of the addon window is broken for German l10n (and I guess some other are affected, too)
16:36:38 <flo> Mic1: I suspect at least half our translators don't have a BIO account
16:36:57 <flo> by the way, collecting reports about localized builds is probably difficult because if people need a localized content, they can't explain the problem in english
16:37:45 <flo> I wonder how we could improve the situation
16:37:52 <flo> would people volunteer to do some QA work?
16:37:58 <Mic1> We have a localization component on BIO, if that's for this purpose we should make sure that people have an account and maybe get an email if a new bug is added?
16:38:02 <flo> can we build tools to detect issues sooner rather than later?
16:38:32 <flo> For example, what if we started a nightly with the latest langpack of each locale, and uploaded automatically a screenshot of each dialog?
16:39:01 <Mic1> I'd go through a localized build of IB and check if there a problems that are clearly due to localization (i.e. overly long labels with all their effects)
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16:39:13 <flo> Mic1: how do you "make sure" of that? Even getting all localizers to be subscribed to a mailing list is difficult (we haven't managed it yet). I don't see myself teaching them bugzilla
16:39:47 <Mic1> Bugzilla is scary if you're not used to it :(
16:40:46 <flo> I've thought for years that we need a person managing the localization efforts and doing the interface between developers and localizers: doing that both ways: advocating with us for changes that would make localizers' lives easier, and explaining/teaching localizers.
16:41:04 <flo> and also collecting valuable information
16:41:14 <flo> I've never found someone with enough motivation to do that.
16:41:39 <flo> It's a lot of work. I currently do it very poorly myself  (especially getting new translators started)
16:42:30 <FeuerFliege> flo: i thinkt the mailing list is a first step.
16:42:30 <Mook_as> I need to actually respond on the bug (will do so later tonight), but for bug 1046: changing it to when it can't automatically reconnect would help, certainly.
16:42:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1046 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Account window shows up on disconnect/reconnect
16:43:19 <flo> FeuerFliege: making it the first step was the intent. The idea with the mailing list was that if we find someone willing to do (part of) the work, he would at least be able to broadcast a message to all localizers at once :)
16:43:35 <flo> Mook_as: ok, thanks :)
16:44:09 <Mook_as> sometimes I wish I remembered my user name / password so I can do things at work. then I realize I should be doing work ;)
16:44:20 <clokep_work> Psh. Work.
16:44:31 <FeuerFliege> i got the idea. You said there are some missing. The mail was partially in French not English. No big deal, but maybe if you resend a mail in English (which leads to an english site) you can get some more.
16:44:35 <flo> Mook_as: you never to work at home? If you do, then it's well balanced ;)
16:44:52 <-- v17al has quit (Ping timeout)
16:44:59 <Mook_as> flo: I do the same - I _don't_ have access to work stuff (other than the public-anyway bits) at home :D
16:44:59 <Mic1> Mook_as: have you considered using Sync on separate profile for Firefox?
16:45:17 <flo> FeuerFliege: I think most of the people who haven't accepted the invitation haven't translated anything recently (with one notable exception, I suspect the email went in his spam folder)
16:45:55 <flo> by the way, should we remove them from the locale manager page?
16:46:07 <Mic1> Valid emails to the mailing list frequently end in the spam folder of my Yahoo account :(
16:46:33 <flo> (thinking about these questions is probably the work for the people managing the localization efforts, by the way)
16:46:59 <clokep_work> Google Groups in general goes to spam folders. :-/
16:47:13 <flo> ok, more ideas would be welcome for ways to improve our ability to catch bugs quickly, but I think we should move on to another topic for now
16:47:18 <clokep_work> We can probably remove them from that page, as long as there's a way to get them if we need to.
16:47:26 <FeuerFliege> flo: well after one or two versions without any translation, they should get a mail and get removed if the don’t respond.
16:47:52 <flo> FeuerFliege: there are also the repostories where nothing has ever been pushed, etc...
16:47:57 <flo> or where there's only junk
16:48:19 <flo> those are probably people who got discouraged because of some technical difficulty and didn't dare to ask for help
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16:48:34 <FeuerFliege> I nearly didn’t start with localizing because there was already a manager.
16:48:36 <Mook_as> oh, oops, did I bump into the weekly meeting? I'm sorry for the distraction.
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16:48:59 <flo> FeuerFliege: I think you should be the manager for de ;)
16:49:05 <Mic1> flo: the screenshots of a nightly's dialogs sound like a good idea, it would certainly make it easier and one wouldn't have to download the program and use it in another language to tell
16:49:22 <flo> Mic1: and on other OSes! :)
16:49:40 <flo> there's quite a bit of infrastructure required though :-/.
16:49:43 <Mic1> FeuerFliege is certainly the one who I noticed most of all localizers (especially of the german ones) recently
16:50:30 <flo> Mic1: I remember very well the previous german localizers, as his most significant contribution was leaking the URL of the staging website on twitter.
16:51:05 <flo> So for 1.2:
16:51:15 <flo> we will of course integrate all the patches that are (almost) ready :)
16:51:18 <FeuerFliege> flo: ah, he is the reason for www-staging_2_ :)
16:51:27 <Mic1> and I can CC FeuerFliege on BIO if I have too ;)
16:51:50 <flo> then probably spend some time upgrading Mozilla to moz8 or even 9.
16:51:53 <Mic1> flo: how much time between 1.1 and 1.2 are you aiming at?
16:52:10 <flo> we should probably also update our build system (port patches from the comm-central build system)
16:52:29 <flo> Mic1: I would like us to release every ~3 months
16:52:39 <clokep_work> I saw some traffic about maybe a libpurple 2.10.1 I thought so we'd include that if possible I'd guess? :)
16:52:45 <flo> then, I would like to push further our js-proto work.
16:52:53 <clokep_work> We should update the current beta for moz.
16:53:18 <flo> clokep_work: if we are aiming for in 3 months, we can probably skip a cycle or two
16:53:22 <Mic1> flo: in which area or direction specifically? Intergrating js xmpp and IRC or another protocol as well?
16:53:34 <clokep_work> Both XMPP and IRC I believe.
16:53:39 <clokep_work> (With maybe some work on Twitter?)
16:53:52 <flo> I want to rewrite the purpleIAccount, purpleIAccountBase and purpleIAccountsService mess.
16:53:54 <Mic1> Should the 1.2 things also go to the etherpad?
16:54:24 <flo> I've meant to do that for a long time, but stopped my JS proto work for 1.0 (0.3 at the time) because we wanted to actually ship something, rather than keep changing APIs
16:54:57 <flo> I also want Instantbird to be able to start without libpurple (make libpurple optional, and in the future potentially an add-on).
16:55:10 <flo> and I definitely want to integrate JS-IRC and JS-XMPP.
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16:55:56 <flo> "be able to start without libpurple" let me clarify: I think libpurple should only be loaded if one of the configured account uses a libpurple protocol plugin (or maybe also if the user needs the list of protocols in the account wizard)
16:56:37 <flo> "rewrite the purpleIAccount, purpleIAccountBase and purpleIAccountsService mess" -> that means rewrite the back-end handling of the list of accounts in JS.
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16:57:18 <Mic1> FeuerFliege: Twitter's already there
16:58:43 <flo> I looked at the purplexpcom code earlier today to determine how much work would be needed to do that. The list of protocols and list of accounts obviously need to be reworked (ported to JS code?). The remaining areas where we have no decent API not relying on libpurple are status handling (we should really fix that! That code is a mess anyway, I don't understand it, so rewriting it sounds like a good idea), and storage of buddy icons
16:58:55 <FeuerFliege> Mic doesn’t like real hyphens
16:59:07 <Mic1> Not if they don't match the rest of the document :D
16:59:25 <FeuerFliege> Mic1: crappy layout you’re using ^^
16:59:38 <flo> AFAIK, there's currently no correct way for a JS-proto to store/cache the buddy icons
16:59:49 <Mic1> flo: what about making protocol plugins restartless? We have a bug about that already
16:59:53 <clokep_work> I do not believe there is either flo.
17:00:17 <clokep_work> Isn't that kind of a pain anyway with components?
17:00:23 <flo> Mic1: I'm not sure if that's for 1.2. I would love it. And rewriting the list of protocols in JS is definitely a prerequisite :) 
17:00:31 <flo> so if we don't do it for 1.2, it will be easier to do it for 1.3 :)
17:00:52 <flo> clokep_work: if it's a pain, we should fix it ;).
17:01:17 <flo> Mic1: restartless themes (message, emoticons) would also be awesome, and probably not very difficult :)
17:01:28 <Mic1> Good point, for 1.2 then?
17:01:46 <flo> it's not my priority. If someone is willing to work on that, great
17:02:27 <FeuerFliege> ah, GF is home. Time to make dinner.
17:02:31 <clokep_work> What do we think about moving themes into the new add-ons manager?
17:02:31 <flo> how does this sound?
17:02:36 <FeuerFliege> good evening.
17:02:37 <clokep_work> (messages, emoticons, etc.)?
17:02:57 <Mic1> bye FeuerFliege
17:03:16 <flo> I think to make them restartless (without each of them including a bootstrap.js file), we need them to have a special handling by the add-on manager anyway
17:03:31 <flo> but I'm not sure about selecting which theme is currenty in use from the add-on manager rather than the pref window.
17:03:39 <clokep_work> Alright.
17:03:47 <flo> would it be easy to display the theme preview in the add-on manager?
17:03:50 <flo> I'm afraid not
17:03:50 * Mic1 neither but putting the add-ons into a separate list would be nice
17:04:13 <Mic1> *themes add-ons
17:04:21 <flo> anybody willing to play with persona? :-D
17:04:33 <Mic1> flo: yes, me :)
17:04:34 <flo> *That* would be a very visible change, worth bumping to 2.0 :-D
17:05:29 <flo> how does this plan sound? (I'm not sure at all of how much work is needed to integrate JS-IRC and JS-XMPP, not sure of the current code quality/amount of bugs there)
17:05:47 <clokep_work> (I can talk about IRC in a second if you'd like.)
17:06:15 <Mic1> I'm uncertain how to install personas though. Firefox is listening for an event and reads the data from the element that fired it iirc
17:06:43 <flo> (for full disclosure: I'm investigating the possibility of integrating most of our code into Thunderbird (nothing decided yet!), and making libpurple is a blocker for that as its licence is incompatible).
17:07:08 <flo> + optionnal
17:08:18 <Mic1> How would that affect Instantbird?
17:08:41 <flo> that's to be determined.
17:08:49 <Mic1> Would people from the Thunderbird team work on that code and upstream it to us? Or would it become a fork and we'd have to grab their code to update IB? :S
17:08:57 <flo> But the things I've listed as my priorities for 1.2 all go in the direction of making our code more Mozilla-friendly.
17:09:20 * clokep_work also has concerns about forking. :-/
17:09:20 <flo> Mic1: I'll do my best to avoid a fork situation.
17:09:54 <flo> and this is a reason why I think *we* should make the changes that would make our code usable without significant modifications (= without forking)
17:10:11 <flo> ("we" may mean "I" here actually :-S)
17:11:15 <flo> but anyway, this all is still at early discussion stages, nothing is decided, so there's no need to worry yet ;).
17:11:17 <Mic1> OK, I'll worry later then ;)
17:12:11 <flo> (not doing anything that could directly harm Instantbird is a condition of my involvment of course)
17:12:11 <clokep_work> In terms of JS-IRC: It definitely needs another review, and there's a few bugs I know of.  Unfortunately I think there's things I need help w/ because either 1. I don't know the internals of Instantbird/libpurple well enough or 2. my lack of true computer science-fu is showing through.
17:12:34 <flo> clokep_work: that's ok! :)
17:12:49 <flo> do you have an estimation of how much work is needed for the review and how soon it should start?
17:13:05 <clokep_work> Plus it might be missing a few features, but it's hard to tell with my limited testing as I only connect to a few IRC servers, so if it's to be included I'd like the initial part of it checked in ASAP so it can get a wide testing w/ lots of time to fix bugs.
17:13:27 <flo> yeah, we definitely want nightly testing! :)
17:13:31 <flo> (also for XMPP!)
17:13:37 <clokep_work> I'm not planning any major changes right now so it's mostly reviewable, we can discuss outside of this meeting (next week?) what I'm having issues with.
17:13:54 <clokep_work> My plan is to do only js-proto stuff this release pretty much though. :)
17:14:10 <flo> I'm not sure yet if I'll be able to attend next week's meeting
17:14:21 <flo> clokep_work: that's also my plan!
17:14:37 <flo> which is a bit worrying for the user facing changes we would need to communicate when releasing
17:14:59 <Mic1> Do we want and if yes is there something we can do to make more Mozilla-related people interested in Instantbird?
17:15:17 <flo> we want
17:15:31 <flo> I think showing it's a good IRC client can help
17:15:38 <Mic1> e.g. using the bzAPI to retrieve detailed information about mentioned bugs .. like the bots, only awesome?
17:16:01 <Mic1> I mean an extension for that of course, nothing that goes into IB directly
17:16:01 <flo> I've proposed doing a talk at MozCamp Berlin (not sure yet if it's accepted or not), but that's more targetted toward volunteers than employees.
17:16:44 <flo> I don't know if that's a good idea or would cause an excessive server load
17:17:07 <flo> how would the server like if 500 clients send the same request for details on the same bug at the same second?
17:17:38 <flo> s/500/150/ (there are only 300 people in #developers right now and targeting half of them would already be fantastic :-D)
17:17:45 <Mic1> No idea.. they might improve caching then? ;)
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17:19:02 <Mook_as> might want to chat with gerv before implementing the feature
17:19:04 <Mic1> Should I try contacting gerv about this idea?
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17:19:10 <Mic1> :D
17:19:40 <flo> I'm not personnaly interested in that idea, but if you want to work on it, sure, asking gerv first is a good idea :)
17:20:05 <clokep_work> Would showing off the extensibility of Instantbird be good? In what ways can we do that?
17:20:16 <clokep_work> How can we find the "papercuts" of Mozillians about their current IM programs?
17:20:24 <flo> ask them?
17:20:28 <flo> post on planet about it?
17:21:08 <flo> I suspect "Skype" will be a common request.
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17:22:03 <clokep_work> Yes, I usually ignore that one. :-X
17:22:22 <flo> Thunderbird may be interested in addressing that one
17:22:45 <flo> (hence our interest in having the same format of protocol plugins ;))
17:23:46 <flo> anything else to discuss?
17:24:16 <flo> any question? :)
17:24:27 <clokep_work> No. I don't think so. :)
17:24:41 <flo> any comment on the format of the meeting/what we can improve next time?
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17:29:08 <Mic1> I think it was OK, even though it was rather long today.
17:29:31 <Mook_as> if you can figure out what vidyo uses, they might be interested as well. (you probably can't, though)
17:29:44 <Mic1> I guess that won't be the case normally since we discussed the post-1.1 points today
17:30:26 <clokep_work> I think we should make the ehterpad before hand and let people put stuff into it?
17:32:08 <flo> Mook_as: oh yeah, vidyo sucks
17:32:19 <flo> I already hate it ;)
17:33:07 <flo> yes, it was (too) long. We discussed the release, the 1.2 roadmap and the QA/l10n issue. 3 big topics at once! :)
17:35:05 <Mic1> Anything else?
17:35:31 <flo> my laptop needs more RAM :-P.
17:35:48 <Mic1> OK, bbl then ;)
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17:36:20 <flo> and the awesome bar is a lot less awesome when the sqlite database it queries into has been swapped off to disk
17:36:36 <clokep_work> flo: RAM is free now. ;) Well really cheap.
17:36:59 <flo> clokep_work: not when it involves changing the hardware around it ;)
17:37:18 <flo> I tend to put the maximum the mainboard can support each time I buy a new laptop
17:37:31 <flo> so... upgrading the RAM also means changing the macbook in this case :(
17:38:25 <clokep_work> Oh. :( I see.
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17:46:26 <FeuerFliege> re
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17:49:24 <flo> diner time, back later :)
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17:50:26 <FeuerFliege> flo: It would be if instantbird functionality gets stuffed into a thunderbird sidebar. TB runs as much as the PC. But I wonder why isn’t chatzilla preferred? SeaMonkey has it. So it should be quite compatible to TB  
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17:59:14 <clokep_work> Bah ChatZilla...
17:59:41 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: I know it is crappy
17:59:50 <FeuerFliege> but well integrated
18:00:13 <Mook_as> that makes me wonder about tb address book integration
18:00:13 <clokep_work> I had only ever used it in Firefox, not in SeaMonkey, but it really wasn't well integrated IMO.
18:00:24 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Hopefully mconley will figure that out?
18:00:28 <Mook_as> (cz definitely wasn't well integrated)
18:01:59 <FeuerFliege> I need a bigger (2nd?) Screen :(
18:02:38 <FeuerFliege> To many windows I want to see at the same time ;)
18:03:10 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: are the release-notes-1.1.properties the only change on the website?
18:07:10 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: No, but it's the only change to localze I think.
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18:11:39 <aleth> Sorry I couldn't be around for the meeting
18:12:46 <aleth> Some comments -
18:13:23 <aleth> I'm rather glad IB is standalone and not part of some humungous communications suite which has to be swallowed as a whole...
18:13:42 <aleth> ...which doesn't mean TB integration wouldn't be cool as an option of course
18:14:21 <aleth> If bug 1079 isn't the consequence of IB code, but on the server side, it might be worth looking at right after 1.1 is released
18:14:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1079 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add-on search is erratic
18:14:40 <aleth> because add-on manager search is currently the most convenient way to install add-ons
18:16:09 <aleth> Regarding getting more feedback/bug reports, it could be an idea to add a feature like "Open IB support channel" to the Help menu (after all, it's just opening an IRC session)
18:16:23 <FeuerFliege> aleth: right, that would be the best way to install addons. Especially for 08/15 users
18:16:57 <aleth> (of course I don't know if that would lead to a deluge of timewasting... but it was a thought that came to mind)
18:18:22 <aleth> Not sure if any of this is etherpad-worthy...
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18:56:29 <clokep_work> aleth: We had discussed the "Open IB support channel" a LONG LONG time ago.
18:56:36 <clokep_work> I like the idea, we were worried about firewalls I think?
18:58:17 <flo> clokep_work: we've had that discussion several times actually ;)
18:59:25 <flo> I remember https://wiki.instantbird.org/Brainstorm:feedback
18:59:43 <flo> that was apparently ~2 years ago :)
19:01:26 <flo> aleth: a better search from the add-on manager probably equals to updating  AIO.
19:01:44 <flo> aleth: Instanbird will stay standalone, don't worry :-).
19:02:06 <aleth> :)
19:02:15 <clokep_work> flo: That UI looks similar to the Firefox Input feedback thing. ;)
19:02:32 <flo> except it was designed way earlier ;)
19:02:59 <aleth> This is where somebody says "Opera had it in 1998" ;)
19:05:38 <aleth> How does mozilla use FF Input, given they can't get back to the reporter for clarifications? As an early warning system for big issues, or a mood indicator?
19:07:04 <instantbot> New Websites - www.instantbird.org bug 1084 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
19:07:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1084 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "/websites/theme/" repository using different theme for its web interface than other repositories
19:10:55 <flo> aleth: a mood indicator I think
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19:22:19 * flo is surprised to notice that bug 1037 is in a component that makes sense.
19:22:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1037 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Link "bug xxx" to bugzilla in hgweb
19:22:27 <flo> clokep++ I guess :)
19:23:03 <flo> there's no blog component (yet) in that product
19:23:54 <Mic> Maybe clokep created the component when he needed it? ;)
19:24:03 <clokep_work> I do that on occasion. ;)
19:24:46 <clokep_work> Yes, there shld be a blog one. I guess I never made it.
19:24:51 <clokep_work> We could move a bunch of bugs into it too. :P
19:25:14 <flo> Mic he's the only one to whom I granted the bugzilla permissions to edit components, so I guessed who was responsible for that improvement ;)
19:25:37 <Mic> Is renaming a component good practice? For consistency the "Buddy List" component could become "Contact List" now?
19:25:52 <flo> or just Contacts
19:26:03 <clokep_work> Mic: If we rename it all the bugs in it follow so it's not actually a huge deal.
19:26:14 <clokep_work> I would probably call it "Contacts window" personally.
19:26:22 <flo> Mic: I see nothing against renaming, as long as the new name is related to the existing content
19:26:25 <Mic> clokep: even better
19:31:24 <clokep_work> If someone wants a blog component, file a bug in the bugzilla component to add a blog component and assign it to me. ;)
19:31:50 <flo> hmm, is it more clicks to file a bug or to add the component? :-D
19:32:05 <flo> (for someone who has the right permissions, I mean)
19:32:26 <Mic> Do you want one to remind you to rename the Buddy List component?
19:32:42 <flo> Mic: do you want the permissions too?
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19:35:15 <Mic> flo: I'm not sure how often I'd need that. I'm someone who wouldn't grant permissions for something without good reason and I wouldn't ask for them either, so I guess most likely 'no' ;)
19:36:27 <clokep_work> I can rename it if flo doesn't want ot.
19:37:31 <flo> it's unfortunate that when I have time ("my" code is compiling), I don't have the motivation to write "exciting" blog posts :(
19:46:49 * Mic just discovered +DUP (includes duplicates) and ALL (includes bugs independently of their status) as first words for bugzilla quicksearches. Could be useful sometimes :)
19:47:30 <clokep_work> That is useful. :)
19:47:53 <Mic> especially 'ALL'
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19:53:10 <Mic> hmm, we really could use keyboards with several tab keys so we'd have one for each of completion, tabbing through ui elements and other fun stuff ;)
19:54:14 <flo> inserting the tab character? ;)
19:57:37 <Mic> Good evening
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19:58:46 <clokep_work> Added blog and updating the buddy list.
20:00:36 <Mook_as> I think cz uses F6 for tabbing through UI elements. that's sadly undiscoverable.
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20:04:54 <flo> isn't the standard key F7?
20:05:07 <flo> (or is that for caret browsing? :-S)
20:05:32 <flo> (I know there's an F<digit> key to switch focus between chrome on contente on Firefox)
20:06:32 <clokep_work> F7 is caret browsing.
20:06:43 <clokep_work> F6 goes to chrome from content.
20:23:46 <clokep_work> (In Firefox.)
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21:00:38 <clokep_work> So is there anything I can do for the release then later?
21:00:42 <clokep_work> Work on the blog post if it's not done?
21:02:11 <flo> that would be nice :)
21:02:30 <clokep_work> Alright.
21:02:36 <clokep_work> Ill see if I can put on my exciting hat later on.
21:05:19 <flo> ah, for moz9 we need s/PRBool/bool/ :-S
21:06:41 <clokep_work> That's not terrible I don't think, right?
21:06:52 <clokep_work> Ah, time to go.
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21:07:06 <aleth> Noob question that I forgot to ask the other night: Why is conversation.xml not called conversation.xul?
21:07:34 <flo> it's an XBL binding
21:07:49 <flo> not a xul window
21:08:05 <Mic1> ah, flo beats me to it :)
21:08:15 <flo> google for "xbl" can probably explain the difference ;)
21:08:35 <aleth> Thanks
21:08:54 <Mic1> Or search MDN for it
21:09:05 <Mic1> I think there's an introduction somewhere
21:09:17 <aleth> Found it (I think)
21:09:48 <Mook_as> if you use it enough, it can probably make you cry too
21:12:44 <flo> Mook_as: isn't that when you are at the limit of having used it enough? When you discover the tricky bugs, but don't know enough about them to avoid them?
21:13:20 <Mook_as> no, when you learn to avoid them you cry about the workaround hacks you need to put in
21:14:23 <flo> why is the sed command line so hard to remember? :(
21:16:20 <Mook_as> (I have wonderful code like | this.tabpanels.parentNode.insertBefore(this.tabpanels, this.tabpanels.nextSibling); |)
21:16:44 <flo> what's special about it?
21:16:56 <Mook_as> I need to insert a node at the place it's already at
21:17:00 <flo> oh, the parent node?
21:17:19 <flo> what are you working around with that? :)
21:17:28 <Mook_as> (that is: insert a node as a child of its parent node, before its current next sibling)
21:17:44 <Mook_as> so that the element is magically somehow more real, so that it shows up in DOM inspector
21:18:10 <Mook_as> (it's _still_ just as anonymous, as far as I can tell)
21:18:28 <flo> isn't that because sqrt(-1) was your favorite number? That would explain why your elements aren't real enough ;)
21:21:05 <flo> hmm, I didn't know we used PRBool so much: 39 files changed, 117 insertions(+), 117 deletions(-)
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22:47:23 <flo> Good night :)
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23:08:20 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 
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23:17:24 <clokep> Ah...XBL how I hate you...
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23:20:30 <Mook_as> don't worry, I'm sure the feeling's mutual
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23:23:58 <clokep> Oh, with the amount it's slapper me around...I know it is.
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