#instantbird log on 10 05 2011

All times are UTC.

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09:23:30 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from the wind for attachment 865 on bug 1059.
09:23:32 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1059 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Suggestion: Remove dividing line from info area in buddy list and conversation
09:23:50 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from the wind for attachment 861 on bug 1059.
09:24:00 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from the wind for attachment 860 on bug 1059.
09:24:40 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from the wind for attachment 862 on bug 1060.
09:24:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1060 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Suggestion: Remove chat icon on the left of conv-top for MUCs
09:25:56 <aleth> sorry about the spam... there is probably a more elegant way of adding r?
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09:33:32 <flo> aleth: there's no way to request review on several patches at once.
09:33:41 <flo> But you can request review at the time you attach the patch.
09:33:58 <flo> also, if you want to avoid sending too many emails, you can assign the bug to you from the add attachment page
09:34:16 <aleth> Right, I forgot yesterday to do it immediately
09:34:51 <aleth> Didn't think of the patches as bugfixes... but I suppose patches are patches. On github you would do a pull request
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09:47:24 <flo> aleth: is there any reason for the status bars to be that huge for you?
09:47:44 <aleth> You mean at the bottom of the windows?
09:48:10 <flo> yes
09:49:17 <aleth> Yes, I was wondering about that. I think it's a consequence of the window resizer in the bottom right, as it also happens on gnome
09:50:26 <aleth> Haven't tried to track it down in the code though
09:51:07 <aleth> I.e. my hypothesis it's a consequence of resizable window border + explicit window resizer triangle at the same time
09:52:49 <aleth> You don't need both of course
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09:54:51 <aleth> It's also possible the size varies with the (OS) theme used. But the KDE default and Clearlooks are pretty standard
10:07:28 <aleth> To some extent the size is partly to blame on the implementation of themes with rounded corners. There are other apps which seem a bit bottom-heavy as a consequence.
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10:56:27 * flo wonders how many of our localizers have been invited to https://wiki.mozilla.org/EU_MozCamp_2011
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13:54:14 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1061 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
13:54:15 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 866 to bug 1061.
13:54:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1061 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unsharp MUC icon in infobar on conversation top (height is 1px too large)
13:55:14 <flo> I haven't fully read it, but it seems possible that https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=666446 just fixed the bug we have had for years with animated emoticons.
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14:29:44 * Mic hates CSS work :S
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14:59:41 * ecaron Eric likes CSS works, feels like this make Mic look down up him now
15:00:02 <ecaron> Oh right, I don't need to add my time to it. Damn you /me, you're smarter than /me
15:00:27 * ecaron Goes back into hiding
15:01:40 <flo> ecaron: CSS gets really painful when trying to have something that works the same on several different platforms that have different default values for the CSS properties of all the elements around ;)
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15:02:19 <ecaron> I'm not saying it is easy, and doing it in Instantbird is certainly 40x harder than web work. I just like the challenge of it in general.
15:03:07 <ecaron> The "WTF?!?! This should be 4px to the right" puzzles are kind of a nice break from dealing with SQL servers being jackasses or Drizzle not compiling on 32-bit
15:03:52 <flo> 4px is too easy (it's clearly visible without zooming)
15:04:44 <flo> it's trickier when there's only a 1px difference + anti-aliasing on the rendering, because you need to zoom to check the difference, and even then can't be really use. It just "feels bad" when looking at the normal size
15:05:38 <ecaron> Can we just talk everyone into using ncurses?
15:06:10 <flo> something that's also time consuming is to get the labels that become editable when clicked right (but you probably can't notice as I think they are mostly broken on WinAero, as I've never fixed them there ; I only bothered with Mac / Ubuntu / XP)
15:07:00 <flo> when editing a topic or aliasing a contact, or changing one's display name, or one's status message, the text in the editable box should appear exactly at the same place as the text of the label that was there before starting to edit. And when finishing the edit, the frame of the box should just disappear, the text shouldn't move.
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15:20:42 <mr_trousers> Hi, :)
15:21:42 <mr_trousers> Someone here? :)
15:22:45 <flo> mr_trousers: are you here? If so, you have the answer to your question ;). I suspect you have a more interesting question to ask though :)
15:25:35 <mr_trousers> lol
15:25:38 <mr_trousers> Yes,
15:26:07 <mr_trousers> just wanted to know by curiousity, what will be the evolutions on the next version of Instantbird?
15:26:39 <mr_trousers> (dans les grandes lignes, pas en détail. je le dis en français parce que "dans les grandes lignes", je vois pas comment traduire ça :) ).
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15:28:42 <flo> much more usable twitter. Sametime support. A way to put conversations on hold (closing a conversation tab without actually leaving the conversation).
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15:29:00 <flo> better stability (top crashes fixed)
15:29:52 <flo> are you waiting/hoping for something specific?
15:31:13 <mr_trousers> hoping voice to begin :) 
15:31:16 <mr_trousers> with xmpp
15:31:43 <flo> voice but not video? Interesting :)
15:31:52 <mr_trousers> It's so hard to have a good client xmpp with voice.
15:32:16 <mr_trousers> video could be great too, but voice first and video after, or both in the same time if you can. Days are only 24 hours :)
15:33:02 <flo> if you want to help making it happen, that can also speed it up maybe ;)
15:34:50 <mr_trousers> Oh, maybe remember me, i didn't put your client on the page of Wiki Korben  http://free.korben.info/index.php/Clients_de_messagerie_instantanée (cause we try to list those who are much good for security or who are special (for example Mumble ) ).
15:34:55 <mr_trousers>    but i put it on this one: http://free.korben.info/index.php/XMPP_%C3%A0_tout_faire#Cr.C3.A9er_un_compte_XMPP  cause if there is a real good point for your client it is the simplicity. 
15:35:09 <mr_trousers> I would, but i'm not programmer :(
15:35:55 <flo> you can probably find other ways to help :)
15:36:16 <mr_trousers> and do you think you will include voice in instantbird? if yes, do you know when?
15:36:19 <mr_trousers> how could i help?
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15:37:48 <flo> 1.1 will be released soon (this month). Then for 1.2, we will replace the current XMPP plugin with some XMPP code implemented in JavaScript that was developed during the summer. It should be way easier to extend, so 1.2 would be a better base to start voice over XMPP experiments :)
15:39:55 <mr_trousers> ok, good thing. not  fan of javascript as you know, but it's better than nothing. :)
15:40:17 <mr_trousers> And i don't know if i've already said it but it would be good, as Coccinella or PSI, to have, when you use XMPP on Instantbird, a list of servers included, for creating a login XMPP  INSIDE Instantbird.  It would help people to use more easily XMPP.
15:40:30 <flo> I never understood why. Or is it just the name? :-P
15:40:46 <mr_trousers> There is a list of servers on the page that  i sent up to you.
15:41:18 <mr_trousers> Cause Javascript makes a lot of security troubles as i know, (and flash too).
15:41:37 <flo> There's no data to back that claim though.
15:41:47 <flo> (for javascript)
15:41:57 <flo> flash is an obvious cause of security issues
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15:43:01 <flo> I've got to go, talk to you later :)
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16:07:35 <clokep_work> Registering inside Instantbird would be nice for both XMPP/IRC (not sure if any other protocols would support that).
16:07:59 <clokep_work> I'm not sure how I feel about including a list of servers though. :-/ That means we need to maintain it.
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19:21:36 <flo> maintaining a list of "all" servers would be painful, yes...
19:21:52 <flo> but maybe we can just provide one or two "recommended" servers?
19:22:59 <flo> would be nice to find a server or two that would appreciate more users and would send a tiny amount of money our way each time a new user creates an account
19:23:33 <flo> I'm not sure if there are server providers that make enough money for that without having bad privacy practices :-S
19:34:24 <flo> ah, that man wanting to pay us to bundle a browser toolbar add-on is back with new "exciting" (:-D) proposals: "I have an semi-exclusive upsell offer, non-search toolbar for shopping."
19:34:26 <flo> "are very clean, AV free, and opt-in for the user experience."
19:34:36 <flo> that's non sense to me :-D
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20:13:13 <clokep_work> Hahah.
20:13:56 <clokep_work> Maintaining a list of "all" servers could be useful like Mozilla's ISPDB, but (afaik) that has some help from ISPs providing their own information and I believe it's also used in Evolution and maybe other clients.
20:16:42 <clokep_work> But that's for the future I think. :)
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21:38:25 <clokep> Hmm...jabber.org is giving me trouble connecting...
21:49:12 * flo wonders how much work it would be to support OTR
21:49:17 <flo> (in an add-on)
21:49:35 <flo> is it easier to us jsctype to access libotr? To reimplement the whole thing in JS?
21:49:53 <flo> do we have enough hooks in our core to make that work easily?
21:50:58 * clokep is unsure what hooks are needed. ;)
21:51:29 <flo> I would say a way to modify messages both before they are sent and before they are received
21:51:38 <flo> before sending is trivial.
21:52:29 <flo> before receiving... many not so easy. An add-on could easily wrap a purpleConversation object, but that wouldn't prevent that original conversation object from dispatching new-text notifications around, with the originally received message
21:53:57 <flo> s/many/maybe/
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21:57:18 <clokep> We do have hooks to handle when a message is received though, no? The text modifier stuff? Or is that not usable in this case.
21:57:45 <flo> way too late in the process
21:58:17 <flo> text modifiers are for the display inside the conversation binding
21:58:17 <clokep> Ah, OK.
21:58:21 <flo> (part of the UI)
21:58:26 <clokep> Got it.
22:00:26 <flo> I think the only change really needed is easy :).
22:00:49 <flo> we would need to send the "new-text" notification to the observer service from the UIConversation rather than the purpleConversation
22:01:45 <flo> so remove http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/purpleInitConv.cpp#130 and http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/jsProtoHelper.jsm#341 (by the way, how come the C++ and jsProtoHelper don't send the 2 notifications in the same order ?!?)
22:01:45 <clokep> Why the sudden interest in OTR? ;)
22:01:46 * instantbot frowns at flo
22:02:51 <flo> and then fire it from http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/imConversations.js#259
22:03:24 <flo> clokep: I still think OTR is pointless. But I read "I would move to #instantbird if it had #otr support." on my twitter timeline, and it was a "good" procrastination of the totally boring sw:1.1 list
22:04:29 <flo> by the way, even though I'm not a fan of the OTR idea, I would like to know we are not lying if we say "you can implement it as an add-on if you really want it"
22:04:31 <clokep> Haha. :)
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22:08:32 <flo> deduplicating the code sending that new-text notification sounds like a good idea anyway ;)
22:08:53 <clokep> Yes. :) I agree.
22:10:47 <flo> an OTR add-on would need to override the addConversation method here (http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/imConversations.js#367)
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22:11:57 <flo> so we would need to add a wrappedJSObject property to ConversationsService to make it extensible
22:13:26 <clokep> Seems like mostly minor changes though.
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22:14:09 <mahasamoot> do you support video chat for msn?
22:14:23 <flo> no
22:14:40 <mahasamoot> is that planned for the future?
22:15:15 <EionRobb> if I wrote a libpurple otr plugin (isntead of the pidgin otr plugin), could IB use it?
22:16:17 <flo> no
22:16:42 <flo> EionRobb: by the way, the libotr API is extremely friendly to libpurple ;)
22:17:05 <mahasamoot> flo, no to which question?
22:17:19 <flo> EionRobb: we don't plan to support non-prpl libpurple plugin
22:17:49 <EionRobb> that's a shame
22:18:29 <mahasamoot> why mozilla, isn't chrome better?
22:18:32 <flo> mahasamoot: we would like to have video chat (not only for MSN, but some other protocols too) in the future. There's no "plan" about it (= nobody has started to actually work on it)
22:18:46 <flo> mahasamoot: no. :)
22:18:52 <EionRobb> I've just been looking into reworking the pidgin otr plugin is all, splitting it up into a libpurple plugin and a UI plugin, using some signals or something
22:18:53 <mahasamoot> I see
22:19:36 <flo> EionRobb: we plan to make libpurple (and all GPL'ed code) optional in a not so distant future, so that some parts of our code could be reused in code with GPL-incompatible licence.
22:20:14 <flo> EionRobb: and we use libpurple as a library to connect to some protocols; definitely not as the core of our applicationb.
22:20:16 <flo> *application
22:21:17 <flo> EionRobb: I do understand that it would be nice for libpurple plugin authors to be able to target Pidgin, Finch, Adium and Instantbird at once ;).
22:24:03 <EionRobb> maybe via a buildbot or something
22:25:09 <flo> clokep: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/1000 I think this is all the changes that would be needed for such an add-on to become possible. 4 insertions(+), 7 deletions(-) It even shortens our code! :)
22:26:43 <clokep> flo: Looks reasonable (and I'm a fan of deduplicating).
22:27:13 <flo> totally untested though :)
22:27:14 <Mook_as> as a test, implement rot13 instead of otr :p
22:27:47 <flo> if we decide we want to land it before 1.1, I can test it tomorrow I gues
22:27:47 <flo> s
22:27:49 <flo> Mook_as: nice idea :)
22:28:10 <Mook_as> that will do the Right Thing for logging, right?
22:28:13 <flo> Mook_as: or maybe just exchange the upper/lower case in strings? :)
22:28:17 <Mook_as> (after first defining what the right things is)
22:28:29 <Mook_as> flo: ha, yes, or just toUpperCase everything!
22:28:29 <flo> Mook_as: logs would be unencrypted
22:28:41 <flo> Mook_as: that's not reversible
22:28:59 <Mook_as> send upper case, receive lower case, so you can tell which bits happened
22:29:09 <clokep> http://willyou.typewith.me/p/AvdzNX79oc is what I have as "release notes" right now.
22:29:12 <Mook_as> and trivial to implement (foo.toUpperCase())
22:29:16 <clokep> typewith.me seems to be a bit unstable right now though. :(
22:29:38 <flo> sounds like a fun project to waste time on tomorrow
22:30:15 <flo> can I claim a rot13 encoding is a security add-on ? :)
22:30:57 <EionRobb> an insecure encryption is still an encryption right?
22:31:30 * flo encrypts with the identity function
22:31:32 <flo> :)
22:32:36 <clokep> Ask for their favorite number then encrypt it using rotnn? :P
22:32:58 <Mook_as> My favourite number is sqrt(-1)!
22:33:16 <flo> :)
22:33:24 <clokep> Mook_as: Ah, you mean j?
22:33:40 <Mook_as> Yep.
22:34:00 <clokep> Well....we can just take the ceil(abs(mag(favorite number))) and I think that'll give a positive integer.
22:34:21 <Mook_as> can you have a negative mag()?
22:34:47 <clokep> Uhhh...no, you're right. :)
22:35:10 <Mook_as> (I'm cheating: because it's a question, even if I'm wrong you can just answer "no" :P )
22:35:53 <clokep> :) (Also rot13 doesn't really work with unicode...)
22:36:41 <Mook_as> it'd only deal with the ASCII-compatible subset, I think
22:37:14 <mahasamoot> flo, nice talking to you :-)
22:37:14 <clokep> Fine. :P
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22:43:07 <flo> Good night :)
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23:10:55 <clokep> instantbot: uuid
23:10:56 <instantbot> d7911461-34a9-4c5f-9912-8c6d71042a4a (/msg instantbot cid for CID form)
23:14:39 <clokep> Mook_as: Do you know if there's a way to make an application think there's an update?
23:15:20 <Mook_as> for testing?
23:15:29 <clokep> Yes.
23:15:35 <Mook_as> the easiest is to override the update url and feed it an empty update
23:15:45 <clokep> Hmm...OK.
23:15:49 <Mook_as> (or rather, a partial update containing a zero-byte file)
23:16:45 <clokep> Alright.
23:17:23 <clokep> I was hoping I could just like fake the version. :)
23:17:45 <Mook_as> oh, I was going for test the whole update flow :p
23:18:15 <clokep> I just need it to prompt me for an update. (bug 1041)
23:18:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1041 maj, --, ---, nobody, NEW, "more info for this update" links don't work
23:27:23 <clokep> Bah well I found an update URL that gives me an update :P https://update.instantbird.org/1/Instantbird/1.1a1pre/20111004041807/WINNT_x86-msvc/en-US/nightly/Windows_NT%206.0/update.xml