#instantbird log on 09 11 2011

All times are UTC.

00:00:31 <devfil> flo: if you want I can provide you a javascript mockup
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00:01:49 <devfil> give me 5 minutes
00:02:35 <flo> I think I would prefer ensuring that all the accounts have the same personal message
00:02:54 <devfil> well, this is just an idea
00:02:54 <flo> would it be ok to use the last non-reply tweet as the personal message?
00:03:11 <devfil> don't know :/
00:03:15 <devfil> maybe an option?
00:05:53 <flo> an add-on? ;)
00:06:03 <flo> (I'm not a fan of options)
00:06:07 <flo> but anyway, it's late
00:06:10 <flo> Good night! :)
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10:22:17 <flo> bugspam time ;)
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11:11:32 <flo> boo, the unwanted restart (empty battery - without warning, *again*) corrupted my Firefox session :(
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11:17:21 <Mic> Did you lose many tabs?
11:18:55 <Mic> I shouldn't post after midnight .. 
11:20:08 <Mic> .. someone wrote a blog post about keyboard tab navigation and I decided to advertise Ib there .. a bit embarassing that it was already on his list that held only four items :S
11:21:46 <flo> Mic: probably less than 50
11:24:03 <aleth> flo: I can recommend the Session Manager add-on for such circumstances - works really well
11:25:29 <Mic> I shared "whiteboard: 1.1-*" searchs on Bugzilla again, just in case someone is interested.
11:28:20 <flo> I was pasting this link here just when my laptop turned itself off: https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=sw%3A1.1
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12:30:06 <devfil> flo: hi, yesterday I wrote a working "mockup" with my idea for psm
12:30:28 <devfil> flo: http://pastebin.com/9MiC1e2f
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12:49:39 <devfil> flo: mhh... a friend suggested an idea to improve this
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13:18:12 <devfil> flo: http://pastebin.com/AhkuzkkD
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18:17:03 <clokep> I'd be willing to dogfood msn-pecan as well btw. ;) And can help with packing an XPI for testing.
18:21:03 <devfil> clokep: ? what about pecan?
18:21:34 <clokep> I'd be illing to test run it if you'd like.
18:21:48 <clokep> Although I'm not a super heavy MSN user.
18:22:13 <devfil> clokep: I still have to work on that, I'm busy with esams
18:22:22 <clokep> I saw, good luck. :)
18:22:41 <devfil> but instantbird support should be easy, I'll need an help to create the XPI :)
18:23:20 <clokep> Yup! flo: We could probably package things that aren't statically linked automatically into an XPI actually, I don't think it' dbe that make make foo.
18:23:55 <devfil> clokep: what do you think about my idea for personal message?
18:24:21 <clokep> I honestly didn't really follow it devfil, what is a "personal message" how is it different than a status message?
18:24:43 <flo> we can probably automate the creation of the XPI, yes
18:24:51 <devfil> clokep: a personal message is not associated to status and it's stored on the server
18:25:08 <devfil> like a tweet :)
18:25:19 <clokep> I see.
18:26:14 <devfil> if you use also the official msn client you'll notice that the personal message you set in instantbird is lost
18:26:26 <clokep> Seems like we'd need a better way to set that then. (I.e. syncing that, Twitter and Facebook, which we don't support but I know has been asked for by people).
18:26:32 <devfil> and maybe there is another one in the official client
18:27:02 <devfil> yes, it could be synked, I just proposed another interface to set them
18:27:28 <devfil> at least they are not lost switching between official and unofficial client
18:27:38 <clokep> That would be ideal, yes. :)
18:27:39 <devfil> it should work also for twitter and facebook
18:28:18 <devfil> and if you set your status to busy you won't lose it like in pidgin -.-'
18:28:40 <clokep> I see. That's good it sounds like. :)
18:28:59 <devfil> clokep: that html needs to be fixed but my idea is this
18:29:20 <devfil> under your username you'll see the protocol icon and the personal message you're using on that account
18:29:35 <devfil> there is 5(10?)-switch in order to change it
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18:29:48 <devfil> so you'll see all different personal messages you're using
18:29:54 <devfil> if you're using different ones
18:30:18 <devfil> if you click on that you'll see a bubble with all personal messages and you'll be allowed to change them
18:30:24 <devfil> this is my idea UI-side
18:30:30 <clokep> Hmm....yeah, kind of goes against our showing everything as one "identity" (if that's the right concept fo)
18:31:25 <devfil> clokep: a checkbox could allow you to sync all psm if you want hiding all psm
18:32:57 <devfil> but this at leat allows you to download and manage psms server-side
18:33:02 <clokep> I think a mock up would be better here. :)
18:33:32 <devfil> yes, I can change my html mockup to show how this could work :)
18:33:42 <devfil> give me 10 minutes
18:33:53 <clokep> There's no rush.
18:34:04 <clokep> Don't want to distract you from studying for exams. (Although maybe you want to be distracted? ;))
18:34:30 <devfil> clokep: well, I'll continue to study later, I need a break :)
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18:39:16 <clokep> Hah, OK. :)
18:51:08 <clokep> Bah bugspam...
18:51:36 <clokep> 65 messages from Instantbird Bugzilla. :P
19:30:23 <devfil> clokep: done
19:34:02 <devfil> clokep: http://pastebin.com/SBnnt26F
19:37:57 <clokep> devfil: And this would be an extra row in addition to the status row, correct?
19:38:07 <devfil> clokep: yes
19:38:17 <clokep> Seems reasonable. :)
19:38:40 <clokep> (And when you tick Sync...it would automatically use the newest from all your accounts?)
19:39:30 <devfil> clokep: if yoy don't want to sync them, psms switch each 5 seconds in the main window
19:39:48 <devfil> clokep: well, I don't know this, maybe the default should be the twitter one
19:40:02 <devfil> or the only set (if the others aren't)
19:40:10 <clokep> Right, that's more of a UI issue anyway. :)
19:40:18 <devfil> or nothing, I don't know
19:41:16 <clokep> Yeah, makes sense though.
19:41:38 <clokep> There's a temporary status message you give out to IM accounts and a more permant message that goes out to Twitter/Facebook/MSN/what-have-you.
19:43:35 <devfil> clokep: maybe a "global psm" for not-twitter/not-msn/not-fb accounts can be added
19:43:51 <devfil> and it can be used as default if the users choice to sync psms
19:43:54 <clokep> I'm not sure what you mean by that.
19:44:11 <clokep> Ah, maybe.
19:45:34 <devfil> clokep: I think the bubble can be cool (if well designed) and easily to use, also he provide good support for psm in a multiprotocol client like instantbird
19:45:45 <devfil> *it provides
19:46:00 <devfil> I have to study english too -.-'
19:47:14 <clokep> For exams or for programming? ;)
19:47:27 <devfil> for programming :)
19:49:01 <devfil> clokep: at least, maybe I was able to explain this idea :)
19:55:15 <clokep> A lot of it is my lack of understanding of the protocol I'm sure. :)
19:55:24 <clokep> and I haven't used the official MSN client in...idk 6 years?
19:57:30 <clokep> flo: How did the meeting at the bank go?
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20:10:18 <flo> clokep: mostly ok. They didn't accept to write down that we won't have anything to pay. They said what they offered to do for us was against the bank policy, so they couldn't write it in anyway.
20:11:20 <clokep> That's a little sketchy. :-/
20:12:22 <flo> yeah, they said it's a "moral engagement" (that phrase sounded like bullshit to me :-D), that they would honor it, but it can't be written (and what's written on the contract is very different :-/).
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20:13:36 <clokep> Yeah, that's not comforting.
20:13:43 <flo> I'm confident they will respect it though, because they also have a strong assurance that should they fail to conform to it, the content of all my personal accounts would immediately go into another bank ;).
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20:15:13 <clokep> Haha, true. :)
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20:33:46 <devfil> flo: what d you think about my purpose?
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20:36:23 <flo> devfil: is there an easy way to see it without downloading the file?
20:36:42 <clokep> flo: http://htmledit.squarefree.com/
20:37:47 <flo> clokep: thanks :)
20:39:07 <flo> devfil: I prefer avoiding per-account things whenever possible in the default UI
20:42:10 <aleth> Not sure I completely understand the concept, but wouldn't Preferences be the place for this, as it would not be changed frequently? (Assuming one can avoid per-account complications)
20:42:36 <flo> aleth: it can change relatively frequently.
20:42:46 <flo> It's a status message, but that isn't related to one's availability
20:42:58 <flo> on XMPP I think it's called a "mood"
20:43:19 <aleth> Ah, ok. I was thinking along the lines of the twitter self-descriptor
20:43:50 <EionRobb> http://img1.uploadscreenshot.com/images/orig/9/25316434227-orig.png if that helps explain it ;)
20:44:21 <flo> EionRobb: ah, moods are restricted to a list? :-S
20:44:35 <aleth> You may only have approved moods ;)
20:44:36 <flo> I thought it was a message that the user could set
20:44:39 <aleth> EionRobb: thanks. I'm kind of amazed people use it though...
20:44:43 <EionRobb> I don't know if all protocols support all moods
20:45:04 <flo> EionRobb: thanks for the screenshot by the way :)
20:45:59 <aleth> Personally it seems like more clutter (but I guess that's a minority opinion)
20:45:59 <flo> ah, it's both an icon (an item of that list) and a message it seems: http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0107.html#proto-format
20:46:15 <EionRobb> just getting my coworker to set his mood so that I can take a screenshot of the buddy list too
20:46:44 <clokep> Bah that seems fairly confusing...
20:47:25 <flo> clokep: everything related to status handling is confusing, because people have different expectations of "what everybody always does" depending on which client they have used before ;)
20:48:03 <flo> our job is to put some order in the mess ;)
20:48:12 <clokep> flo: Yeah, and every protocol supports different things. Very different things.
20:48:30 <flo> and most support the same things, with different names, claiming it's a special feature
20:48:43 <clokep> Ah, perhaps.
20:48:58 <clokep> Like unavailable vs do not disturb vs away and other subsets. ;)
20:49:20 <flo> yeah...
20:49:26 <flo> and like what's stored on the servers
20:49:33 <clokep> Yeah. :-/
20:49:44 <flo> Google Talk has a "shared status" thing so that all connected Gtalk clients share the same status
20:49:45 <clokep> If just everyone would use XMPP and that's all we had to care about. :-D
20:50:05 <devfil> aleth: I don't know how to better explain how that concept works :/ù
20:50:12 <flo> XMPP most likely has lots of contradicting XEPs anyway ;)
20:50:27 <clokep> Oh, I know, we shold just make our own protocol...:P
20:50:34 <EionRobb> the best thing about standards, is that there's so many of them to choose from
20:51:00 <flo> + each time we are confused and decide to make something better, that adds one to the list :)
20:51:13 <flo> (yeah, xkcd)
20:51:39 <aleth> devfil: Thanks, I think I get it now (it's just that I wouldn't use it, so its unfamiliar)
20:52:11 <aleth> https://www.xkcd.com/927/
20:56:14 <clokep> Hmm....I don't seem to be suffering from bug 567 anymore (which is good, not sure if I should close it or not).
20:56:17 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=567 maj, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Crash [@ msim_status_text ] in the myspace protocol plugin.
20:56:52 <flo> has any of the msim files been changed?
20:57:08 <flo> or is that automatic timer removal that's saving the situation?
20:57:43 <flo> (or do we even care about the answer to these questions? :-D)
20:57:43 <clokep> Hmm....could have been the timer removal. One second.
20:58:47 <clokep> Some files did change for 2.9.0
20:59:20 <clokep> I'll close it within a few days if I have no issues. :)
20:59:47 <devfil> flo: why that should be a change to UI for each protocol?
21:00:00 <devfil> you can handle that using libpurple
21:00:12 <devfil> you only have to show used accounts
21:00:44 <flo> clokep: sounds good :)
21:01:44 <flo> devfil: I've no idea of what these last 3 sentences are referring to
21:02:01 <devfil> [22:39] <@flo> devfil: I prefer avoiding per-account things whenever possible in the default UI
21:02:42 <flo> right. I haven't mentioned "each protocol".
21:03:03 <devfil> yes, I read wrongly :/, sorry for the mistake
21:04:44 <devfil> well, I don't have other ideas about this :P
21:05:11 <flo> it's a UI thing. If you are working on the prpl, you don't have to worry about it
21:06:02 <devfil> I have to know if I should disable psm server-side storing or not :)
21:08:34 <devfil> that feature is cool if you use several clients
21:09:10 <flo> and even more if you have ever set anything in the personal message ;)
21:09:36 <devfil> it's higly used in italy
21:09:49 <devfil> also what about tweets or facebook posts?
21:10:46 <flo> it's the same thing
21:11:20 <flo> and yes, twitter also tends to be cooler if you sometime write on it.
21:15:12 <devfil> mhhh... don't know
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21:47:49 <devfil> flo: what about a plugin?
21:53:08 <flo> plugin authors are free ;)
21:55:46 <devfil> flo: maybe I'll find someone interested in working on this... maybe :)
22:00:12 <EionRobb> plugin?
22:00:27 <flo> add-on
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23:05:08 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/9eed3b6cc139 - Florian Quèze - Fix getting Mozilla localized files (compatibility with the new release repositories).
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23:12:22 * flo is apparently making a mess of the l10n buildbot :-S
23:19:03 <flo> seems to work well now :)
23:19:24 <flo> and I can mark the "    fix getting l10n strings from Mozilla " line of the roadmap as completed
23:19:52 * flo is happy. That item looked scary :).
23:19:59 <flo> it looks a lot less scary now that it's fixed :)
23:21:05 <clokep> Congrats. :) Should help our localizers too. :)
23:29:37 <flo> I'm a bit surprised that I ended up fixing it this evening because I was too lazy to find a way to explain in a bug what needed to be done to get it in a working condition, and that was [1.1-blocking] so it really needed to be in file so that we could track correctly what's left to do for the release :-D
23:33:38 <flo> hmm, is there anything listed in https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Roadmap:1.1 (or that we have otherwise promised to do) that would be 1.1-blocking or 1.1-wanted and isn't already in https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=sw%3A1.1 ? (I don't care much about the 1.1-nice-to-have as most of them are likely to be postponed anyway)
23:39:23 <clokep> I don't think there's anything missing.
23:39:43 <clokep> Although the conversation handling/interruptions manager probably need to be a bit better defined. :)
23:40:04 <flo> yeah :(
23:40:40 <flo> I don't really know what's still missing for the conversation handling in addition to what's already listed as dependencies of the tracking bug
23:40:50 <flo> it feels like it's not ready, but I won't know why :(
23:41:54 <aleth> you could always leave the interruptions manager to 1.2...
23:42:17 <flo> the interruption manager will basically be a service that will be called by all UI things that could interrupt the user's train of thoughts and request an authorization for it. I think all authorizations will be granted by default, and add-ons will be able to change this behavior
23:43:07 <flo> add-ons could make things so that conversations from people not in the buddy list aren't allowed to pop-up
23:43:21 <flo> (or maybe that should be built-in but off-by-default, and with an option to turn it on)
23:43:58 <aleth> I think the conversation handling will really come into its own when combined with session restore, and with context provided for all conversations (ie a different log file system). These are big items but they will eventually lead to less distinction between terminated conversations and hidden conversations
23:44:02 <flo> another add-on/option could deny all authorizations while unavailable
23:44:18 <flo> another could deny authorization for nickserv
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23:45:04 <aleth> But you could release 1.1 without the interruptions manager? Or is it not so separate from hidden conversations
23:45:18 <flo> aleth: yeah... "context provided for all conversations" won't come soon though.
23:45:36 <aleth> understandably so
23:45:40 <flo> I think the interruption manager is needed to make Hidden Conversations really useful
23:46:00 <flo> it's almost part of it, in a way
23:46:09 <flo> but it would also prevent sounds and popup notifications
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23:46:48 <flo> by the way, I don't like the name "Hidden Conversations"
23:46:55 <aleth> yes its misleading
23:46:57 <flo> but I'm not sure why
23:47:13 <flo> (I guess if I knew I would have a good idea for a replacement ^^)
23:47:50 <aleth> So you are thinking of features like you could have an interruption manager setting that would have incoming conversations "hidden" rather than popping up a window
23:48:03 <flo> sure
23:48:13 <flo> I also want auto-join chats to be hidden
23:48:54 <flo> but for all these things I'm not sure if I want that by default / built-in but turned off by default / in add-ons.
23:48:59 <flo> I'm just sure I want to use that :)
23:49:08 <aleth> :)
23:49:26 <aleth> less interruptions, what's not to love
23:50:31 <clokep> I think auto-joined conversation might be an add-on...and restoring them might be the good "default" behavior.
23:50:46 <clokep> And I don't know a better name than "Hidden Conversations" either. :-/
23:51:02 <clokep> Maybe just "Conversations" but people would then expect all open conversations to be there.
23:51:10 <aleth> "Minimized conversations" fits better but is terrible for other reasons
23:51:18 <clokep> "Minimized Conversations"? "Closed Conversations" isn't accurate.
23:51:34 <flo> "Idle conversations"?
23:51:45 <flo> "Inactive conversations"
23:51:50 <aleth> "shelved"
23:51:51 <flo> "Pending Conversations"?
23:52:01 <flo> "stfu conversations"? :-P
23:52:07 <aleth> lol
23:52:32 <aleth> "conversations" (hidden) vs "active conversations" (tabs) ?
23:52:36 <EionRobb> silenced conversations?
23:53:12 <clokep> This sounds like bike shedding...:P
23:53:21 <flo> if we want to release by the end of the month and still give a decent string freeze period for translators, we should give priority to whatever still needs string changes
23:53:34 <aleth> You could call "hidden conversations" "the bikeshed" :p
23:53:49 <flo> convshed?
23:54:37 * clokep doesn't like the double click default action.
23:55:12 <aleth> "Background noise"
23:55:26 <flo> clokep: explain why in the bug please? ;)
23:55:40 --> kaie has joined #instantbird
23:55:41 * clokep needs to find the bug...
23:55:49 <clokep> I'd search for everything Mic has filed...but that's like 400 bugs.
23:56:01 <lewellyn> clokep: this is the url my bot gives for bikeshedding conversations. it may or may not be useful... :)
23:56:04 <lewellyn> 16:54 +smrt:  http://nsfw-comix.com/nsfw098.htm
23:56:36 <lewellyn> that page is sfw, unlike the rest of the site. be warned.
23:56:43 <clokep> Hah.
23:56:54 <aleth> heh
23:56:55 <kaie> instantbird ships with NSS embedded, right? you did not ship a security udpate after the recent DigiNotar trust compromise, right?
23:57:30 <clokep> kaie: We did not ship a security update, no.
23:57:46 <clokep> Idk if we use the system NSS on Linux.
23:58:38 <kaie> clokep, not all linux systems have system NSS. I believe the default of Linux binary downloads is "with own NSS included and preferred". I believe you only use system NSS when using a package that was built by the linux distribution