#instantbird log on 07 20 2011

All times are UTC.

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00:34:38 <flo> clokep: what's the last thing you got?
00:34:50 <clokep> I was gone most of the day actually.
00:35:00 <clokep> Anything past like 11:00 AM EDT.
00:35:12 <clokep> But if it wasn't important don't worry about it.
00:35:23 <clokep> (That's like...1600 in France?)
00:36:46 <flo> so anything after "16:20:17 - clokep_work: I had no idea that many people used them."?
00:36:54 <clokep> Yes. :)
00:37:18 <flo> there's only http://pastebin.instantbird.com/878
00:37:47 <flo> clokep: by the way, lots of blind people use screen readers ;)
00:38:21 <clokep> flo: I know! I just never really thought about how they use software I guess?
00:38:29 <clokep> Thanks though. :)
00:38:46 <flo> It's possible we have a real accessibility bug about the status selector
00:39:24 <flo> I put -moz-appareance: textfield on the label to edit the status text. The screen reader probably still "sees" (reads?) a label :-/
00:39:49 <clokep> Possibly. :(
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00:59:52 <flo> Good night :)
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11:58:45 topic changed by concrete.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird (http://www.instantbird.com) here|Get Instantbird 1.0 while it's hot! :) |News: http://blog.instantbird.org/ |Nightlies: http://nightly.instantbird.im/ (testing purpose only) |IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/ |Pastebin: http://pastebin.instantbird.org/"
11:58:45 * ChanServ sets mode +v instantbot 
11:58:54 <Morian> grr instantbot ...
11:59:03 <clokep_work> wb instantbot!
11:59:04 <instantbot> yo clokep_work
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12:35:30 <deOmega> good morning
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12:39:24 <clokep_work> Hello.
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15:39:40 <Mic> Hi
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15:40:09 <clokep_work> Hello.
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15:54:34 <deOmega> the logs not working?
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15:55:15 <clokep_work> When instantbot is not here, we can't get logs.
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15:59:17 <clokep_work> So yes, the logs weren't working. But you didn't miss much. ;)
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16:02:55 <deOmega> ah. gotcha
16:03:27 <deOmega> who gave  instantbot permission to leave? lol
16:03:58 <deOmega> instantbot: why weren't you at work?
16:04:01 <instantbot> deOmega: Sorry, I've no idea what 'why weren't you at work' might be.
16:04:09 <deOmega> exactly lol
16:04:40 <deOmega> therein lies the problem lol
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16:11:15 <Mic> deOmega :D
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16:17:21 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 935 filed by rmcauley@rainwave.cc.
16:17:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=935 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, User Interface Problems With Scaled DPI Settings
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16:17:52 <instantbot> rmcauley@rainwave.cc added attachment 752 to bug 935.
16:20:35 <Mic> Oh :(
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16:22:10 <clokep_work> I would tend to think it's a XUL problem, but I'm not really sure...
16:26:04 <Mook_as> hmm, fiddling with layout.css.devPixelsPerPx gives completely different results (but just as bad) :p
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16:35:45 <flo> is this an issue with mixing em sizes and px sizes in the CSS?
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16:46:43 <LiquidRain> Heyo folks, is there a list of "yes this is a popular feature that we're working on" things before I start rattling off a laundry list of things I'm hoping to find in Instantbird?
16:47:04 <LiquidRain> Or rather, I'm hoping will be implemented, I haven't been able to find them in IB as of yet.
16:47:19 <clokep_work> You can check bugzilla, there's also the timeline, although that shouldn't be counted on to any degree. ;)
16:47:27 <clokep_work> And being bugzilla by no means means it's being worked on.
16:47:27 <LiquidRain> haha.
16:47:38 <LiquidRain> yeah but at least I can track the bug at that point
16:47:45 <clokep_work> Yup! Of course. :)
16:48:26 <clokep_work> You can rattle of a laundry list if you want. Won't really interrupt the conversation in here right now.
16:48:52 <LiquidRain> I'm moving from Pidgin, so a Pidgin setting importer would have been awesome. (they even store the passwords in plaintext for you!)
16:49:57 <LiquidRain> I really like a couple plugins from Pidgin for IRC use, such as markerline, which puts a red line below the last message received when the window loses focus. (lets your eyes quickly find what's new by just reading below the red line)
16:50:39 <LiquidRain> Pidgin also has a plugin that inserts the number of new messages directly into the window title.
16:51:08 <LiquidRain> So I'd see "[5] #instantbird - Instantbird" if there were new messages, and "* [5] ..." if somebody said my nick.
16:51:23 <clokep_work> We definitely want an import wizard, but haven't gotten beyond a "gathering information" stage yet. I'm not sure if a bug is filed on that (you can file it if you want though!)
16:51:37 <clokep_work> You'd like that on each tab?
16:51:58 <LiquidRain> Pidgin sums up the number of new messages per window
16:52:04 <clokep_work> I'd actually like something that tells ou what yo last read too...I have a half working extension that's rather broken that used to do it. :-D
16:52:19 <clokep_work> I haven't gotten around to finishing it.
16:52:29 <LiquidRain> So if I have three IRC tabs in a window, it sums up all the new messages from each tab and puts it into the window title so it's visible from the taskbar.
16:52:36 <LiquidRain> Ditto for normal IM windows.
16:52:54 <clokep_work> Well it has a plug-in to do it, right? This could easily be done in an extension I think.
16:53:21 <LiquidRain> I think so too.
16:53:34 <LiquidRain> Global hotkeys should be an option too in IB.
16:54:15 <LiquidRain> My Pidgin use case is hitting ctrl+alt+p to raise the buddy list out of the tray, then using type-to-find to find a buddy, press enter to open their window, and then ctrl+alt+p to send the blist to tray.
16:54:21 <deOmega> ah, I use that line market too
16:55:06 <clokep_work> Ah, I found it. Bug 860 is the markerline one.
16:55:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=860 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add reading position marker line to (IRC) chat window
16:55:33 <clokep_work> Isn't "global hot keys" an OS level thing then?
16:55:54 <LiquidRain> ah, thanks, clokep, my searches were fruitless.
16:56:45 <clokep_work> I knew it was there somewhere. :_D
16:57:12 <clokep_work> I don't thinkw e have anything about global hot keys either. That sounds more like extension fodder to me, but maybe flo would have an opinion.
16:57:22 <clokep_work> (anything being "any bug")
16:57:48 <Mic> Type-as-you-find for the different lists would be a great thing
16:57:58 <Mic> Rather Find-as-you-type ;)
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16:59:34 <clokep_work> We do have a bug about that somewhere too..
17:00:36 <clokep_work> Well bug 631 is about filtering it... not really FAYT
17:00:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Filtering buddy list
17:00:59 <clokep_work> FAYT would be nice too though.
17:01:07 <clokep_work> Well either really accomplish the same thing though. :)
17:02:08 <LiquidRain> another really frustrating bug that, uh, may only apply to me, when I double click to open the IB tray icon, the IB tray icon disappears and a click magically gets transferred to my Thinkpad's Power Manager tool that sits next to the tray.
17:02:16 <LiquidRain> Very annoying having the power manage load up every time I try to open IB :)
17:03:35 <clokep_work> Well the thinkpad utilities all take forever to lad too. ;)
17:03:52 <clokep_work> That one is filed though, one sec.
17:04:04 <LiquidRain> Ah, nice!
17:04:34 <clokep_work> bug 752 is your issue
17:04:36 <LiquidRain> Thanks for all the help.  I'm living without some of the niceties of Pidgin for now (yes I'm using IB at the moment) simply because I got tired of Pidgin's... Pidginess.  I don't think I need to explain.
17:04:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=752 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Double-clicking on system-tray icon also launches another icon.
17:05:20 <clokep_work> Which would be fixed by bug 749 would fix it as well I think.
17:05:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=749 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, System Tray Icon should persist even when Buddy List is open
17:05:56 <LiquidRain> Yes, 759 is more what I'm looking for :)
17:06:01 <LiquidRain> er, 749
17:06:49 <LiquidRain> I have to admit I'm surprised at how polished Instantbird is already, though, how long as it been in development?
17:07:06 <clokep_work> Also bug 870 might be of interest to you then.
17:07:09 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=870 nor, --, 1.1a1, clokep, RESO FIXED, Single click (not double click) on tray icon should toggle the Buddy List
17:07:12 <clokep_work> Uhhh...flo started 4 years ago?
17:07:19 <LiquidRain> Wow, that long ago.  That would explain it.
17:08:59 <Mic> We had a different version numbering system until recently, that's why we're at 1.0 now (previous releases were number 0.1.*, 0.2 and 0.3 was changed to 1.0 recently)
17:09:48 <LiquidRain> I saw that in Bugzilla, version numbers are meaningless though.  Time sunk is usually a better measure. :)
17:10:24 <LiquidRain> Oh hey, escape closes IM windows by default in Instantbird.  Very nice.
17:10:37 <LiquidRain> and I didn't have to spend 3 hours getting GTK setup to not be stupid to get IB running, so props on that one too.
17:10:47 <Mic> :)
17:11:39 <clokep_work> Yes, GTK is rather evil (on Windows at least).
17:13:09 <Mic> LiquidRain: a list of active conversations is going to be added to the main window soon (on the nightly builds). It will include an indicator how many unread messages are in each conversation.
17:14:07 <Mic> Maybe that would help you as well? You could even close the conversation windows completely and still have the overview what's going on
17:14:34 <LiquidRain> I tend to work with maximized windows on all my monitors and put the buddy list/main window in my tray, so no, that wouldn't be too helpful. :/
17:15:52 <clokep_work> I think that could be like a <1 hour worth of work as an add-on, but I'd suggest filing a bug about it? We'd also like to add the un-read count to the tray icon / taskbar icon.
17:19:08 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 936 filed by rmcauley@rainwave.cc.
17:19:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=936 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Ctrl tab keyboard navigation does not take you to latest message
17:19:10 <LiquidRain> as soon as I stop filing other bugs :)
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17:19:53 <clokep_work> I don't think that's a bug...I think it's done purposefully.
17:20:12 <myk> hello, instantbirders! i have a new bug, but i think it's in libprpl, not instantbird...
17:20:18 <Mic> The overlay-icon support for the Windows 7 taskbar (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=515907)  has stalled for a year now :(
17:20:21 <LiquidRain> Then it should be an option. :)
17:20:33 <LiquidRain> or an extension
17:20:40 <myk> sometimes, when i connect to multiple XMPP accounts, i stop being able to communicate with my XMPP contacts
17:20:53 <clokep_work> LiquidRain: Probably an extension, yes.
17:21:00 <clokep_work> But someone who wants it needs to make it. ;)
17:21:08 <myk> i used to have the problem in pidgin, and i solved it by disabling one of my three XMPP accounts
17:21:16 <LiquidRain> how inconvenient! :)
17:21:26 <myk> but yesterday i experienced the problem again in instantbird, and i solved it by disabling a second of my three XMPP accounts
17:21:33 <clokep_work> myk: I've never heard of that, perhaps someone else has. Most likely sounds like a libpurple issue though.
17:21:50 <myk> then i tested in pidgin, and i saw the same behavior there as well
17:21:59 <myk> clokep_work: yes, it sure does
17:22:07 <Mic> LiquidRain: since extensions can do anything in Instantbird, we don't tend to add lots of options since we don't need to built everything in
17:22:18 <myk> clokep_work: especially since it shows up in pidgin too
17:22:40 <myk> still curious if anyone has experienced the problem and knows of a solution or workaround
17:23:28 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 937 filed by rmcauley@rainwave.cc.
17:23:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=937 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Put new message count in window title
17:23:31 <LiquidRain> Mic: Understandable.
17:23:45 <clokep_work> I've had it before where my XMPP MUCs don't reconnect (although they pop up in the UI),II don't tend to use a lot of XMPP private chats though. So maybe it's the same issue?
17:23:51 <clokep_work> I connect to like 6 accounts via XMPP though.
17:24:07 <LiquidRain> I'm hoping in a couple weeks I'll have the time to look into extensions here.
17:24:12 <LiquidRain> Right now I'm a bit too busy. :/
17:25:23 <Mic> LiquidRain: just come here and ask if you need help then, we're happy to help people getting started with extensions. Extensions are the strength of the platform, we should leverage that ;)
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17:26:22 <LiquidRain> Oh you bet I'll be in here.  I failed miserably trying to make a Firefox extension. :)
17:28:03 <flo> myk: were there any error messages in the Error console that seemed related to your XMPP issue?
17:28:36 <myk> flo: hmm, i didn't think to look there; i'll reenable the other accounts and look there if the problem recurs
17:30:46 <deOmega> LiquidRain: did you try the single click extension to resolve the problem with  double-clicking the  system tray icon?  That is what I had to do for now.
17:31:04 <LiquidRain> deOmega: No, I didn't, but I'll give it a shot. Thanks.
17:31:20 <clokep_work> I never had anything in the console w/ my issue, but I'm not sure it's the same.
17:31:25 <deOmega> LiquidRain: no problem. clokep created that
17:32:46 <flo> clokep_work: the use of GIO in msn-pecan is really a PITA ;)
17:33:14 <deOmega> I almost never look at my  buddy list, but I have a feeling the new interface may change my behavior :)
17:34:36 <deOmega> similar to that write with me site.. ifs there a draw with me one?
17:35:25 <deOmega> would be nice for  design collaboration (not just here)
17:39:19 <deOmega> type with me
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17:51:22 <flo> clokep_work: in bug 758 you wrote "I reverted these changes as well.". Did you actually do it?
17:51:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Clean up jsProtoHelper
17:54:04 <flo> clokep_work: what's used in the gtalk override from imXPCOMUtils that isn't in XPCOMUtils?
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17:57:53 <flo> clokep_work: Looks good otherwise and if you agree with these changes I can commit and push it in a few minutes
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18:02:16 <Mic> LiquidRain: are you using Windows?
18:02:27 <LiquidRain> you betcha
18:03:26 * Mic should install a urbandictionary search plugin ;)
18:03:53 <Mic> Ok, you can create a shortcut to Instantbird on your desktop and assign it a key shortcut (e.g. CTRL+SHIFT+I)
18:04:08 <LiquidRain> ahh, and that will sort of work for now
18:04:11 <Mic> This will allow you to bring the contact list to top using this shortcut
18:04:27 <Mic> You won't be able to minimize it using this key but you can show it at least
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18:05:03 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 919 to FIXED.
18:05:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=919 maj, --, ---, clokep, RESO FIXED, Add "not authorized" solution for Facebook to FAQ
18:05:28 <Mic> This won't work if you're using different profiles (i.e. using parameters -P -no-remote .. ) though
18:05:47 <flo> doesn't the "escape" key work to minimize?
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18:06:03 <Mic> Only for conversation windows, we never added it to the contacts list iirc
18:06:43 <LiquidRain> flo: I use Pidgin by hitting the hotkey to bring up the buddy list, using type-to-find, pressing enter to open an IM window to the contact, then hitting the hotkey to hide the buddy list.
18:06:46 <Mic> Bug 764
18:06:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=764 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Minimize/hide contacts list with the Escape key
18:07:05 <LiquidRain> I also used a hotkey to jump to my unread messages.
18:07:06 <flo> LiquidRain: you already said that I think ;)
18:07:41 <LiquidRain> flo: I sure did!  An escape key wouldn't work in my particular use case, though, since I want to hide the buddy list while it's unfocused.
18:07:50 <LiquidRain> Sorry, not sure how diligent you are on your backlogs. :)
18:17:24 <Mic> Good evening
18:17:36 <Mic> (instantbot: you're not leaving today!)
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18:23:03 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 748 on bug 929.
18:23:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=929 min, --, ---, mmkmou, ASSI, Add keyboard shortcuts to menu
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20:03:22 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): http://code.google.com/p/msn-pecan/issues/detail?id=313&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Priority%20Stars%20Milestone%20Owner%20Summary
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20:41:04 <clokep_work> flo: GIO is probably a pain in the ass but I think SIPE needs it, where msn-pecan it seems optional.
20:43:02 <clokep_work> flo: Apparently I didn't revert those changes in that patch but I could SWEAR that I reverted the file via Mercurial.
20:43:12 <clokep_work> Maybe it didn't work for some reason.
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20:44:08 <clokep_work> And GTalk probably doesn't need imXPCOM as opposed to XPCOM, do you prefer using XPCOMUtils when imXPCOMUtils isn't required?
20:46:31 <clokep_work> So I'm good with those changes, sorry about that ibCore.js file again, I have no idea how that sneaked in there. :-/
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21:07:31 <LiquidRain> another question: will we be getting separate window sizes/positions for when we have separate multi-user chat and IM windows?
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21:44:45 <ecaron> This FB issue is really starting to be a big problem for our adoption rates: http://twitter.com/#!/michaelandedenf/status/93798163785330688
21:56:18 <flo> how do you know the effect on the adoption rate?
21:59:02 <flo> ecaron: the user apparently isn't using the right facebook username
21:59:37 <flo> + have you noticed he is using Qwitter (a twitter client specifically designed for blind people)?
22:00:06 <EionRobb> if that's the case, he might not have a facebook username, since the page to get a fb username doesn't work with screenreaders
22:00:30 <EionRobb> you guys should use the adium patches and support the oauth stuff for the facebook xmpp
22:02:04 <flo> facebook uses OAuth for XMPP?
22:02:51 <EionRobb> it can do yes.  one of the auth mechs uses the session key from an oauth session
22:03:10 <flo> interesting :)
22:03:53 <EionRobb> you should be able to pull the patches that are used from adiums branch in pidgins mtn... 
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22:04:54 <EionRobb> that's all assuming that instantbird can open an embedded browser window and extract the url from the embedded browser when it changes (which I would hope it could do ;))
22:05:04 <flo> boo, it just crashed without opening breakpad :(
22:05:10 <ecaron> flo: It is a complete assumption that it is impacting adoption rate.
22:05:18 <flo> EionRobb: we do that for twitter already ;)
22:05:39 <ecaron> But given that every complaint we read about Instantbird is typically related to "FB chat doesn't work," it feels like a safe assumption.
22:05:39 <flo> EionRobb: thanks for the info
22:06:11 <flo> ecaron: I've read more complaints about the lack of RT/reply support on twitter ;)
22:06:37 <ecaron> If complaints were fishes...
22:07:01 <flo> I've also read more messages from people saying they love Instantbird than ever before
22:07:21 <flo> and happy people tend to communicate less about it then people encountering problems
22:07:25 <flo> *than
22:07:35 <ecaron> flo: That's incredibly true. Is there thought of any Cyanogenmod-esque reporting so we could know the breakdown of who is using what?
22:08:00 <EionRobb> or use sparkle, like adium for stats :)
22:08:17 <EionRobb> http://adium.im/sparkle/ :)
22:08:40 <ecaron> EionRobb: Nice!
22:09:23 <flo> stats don't help us see what our future users use
22:09:51 <ecaron> but knowing current market usage would help weigh how features & bugs get prioritized, no?
22:10:43 <ecaron> e.g. if FB usage is significantly out of proportion with adium's usage patterns, we could infer that people are having a hard time using FB in Instantbird
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22:13:44 <flo> ecaron: people "having a hard time using facebook in Instantbird" would still be counted (as their facebook account would exist, it would just be disconnected
22:14:12 <ecaron> flo: Could we then count connection attempts along with success/failure?
22:15:37 <flo> and the conversations started, the messages sent, the messages received, per account, per protocol?
22:16:04 <flo> you may be interested in looking at what Mozilla does with their Test Pilot program
22:16:59 <flo> ecaron: by the way, crash reports are another way to "get an idea" of what people have trouble using ;)
22:17:12 <ecaron> Sorry, I was just thinking about the users who were vocally saying they were having problems vs. the ones that just tried it and gave up.
22:17:23 <ecaron> I won't mention it again.
22:18:02 <flo> it would be nice to have an uninstall survey
22:18:13 <flo> or a survey after the first use
22:20:17 <flo> "Thanks for trying Instantbird. Would you like to tell us what you thought about it so that we can make it better for you? [ ] Do not ask again.  [Yes] [Maybe later]"
22:20:52 <flo> The help menu needs a way to send feedback
22:21:39 <flo> I think all this was discussed a while ago, some mockup were created, and nobody actually implemented it
22:22:42 <ecaron> I suppose it comes down to ideological differences. I've learned far more from Flurry than any survey we've embedded in our iOS apps. I've learned more from watching users use my system than asking them what they thought of using it.
22:23:16 <ecaron> I really like the logic that Steve Krug talks about in his books (Dont Make Me Think, Rocket Surgery Made Easy)
22:23:33 <flo> we learn a lot by watching users do something (but it's not easy to do in our case)
22:23:59 <ecaron> That's exactly my point. And that's exactly why Cyanogenmod and Adium do tracking too.
22:24:02 <flo> I love looking over the shoulder of someone trying Instantbird for the first time.
22:24:30 <ecaron> They certainly can't watch everyone, but the mass stat tracking sure makes some conclusions easier than simply assuming usage patterns.
22:24:32 <flo> we catch stupid usability bug that way
22:24:55 <flo> I saw someone double clicking on a protocol in the protocol list of the account wizard. It did nothing (I fixed it of course)
22:25:36 <flo> I saw someone very confused by having all the windows opened above each other (something we barely notice as we are used to move windows to put them where we like seeing them)
22:25:49 <flo> we fixed the "first window position" thing for 1.0
22:25:50 <ecaron> Ok, let's stick with that example.
22:26:12 <ecaron> I'm having a hard time understanding what proof I need to provide to demonstrate something is causing a problem.
22:26:45 <ecaron> I feel a lot of "We did that for a reason, our logic is beyond question" attitude.
22:26:59 <flo> there's no real need for a proof. We just need to have a way to understand what the user thought or expected, and how it compared to what happened
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22:27:22 <ecaron> Ok. Got it. Let's apply that logic to the icon though.
22:27:58 <ecaron> I can easily round up 40 people that didn't give the project a 2nd thought because they saw the icon as a mail app, thought "I'm happy with my mail app" and then forgot about Instantbird.
22:28:03 <flo> I didn't say I disagree with you on the icon point. I just gave you the context / why it is this way so that you can catch up with previous discussions faster
22:28:36 <ecaron> What proof would you need to think, "Maybe the icon is conveying the wrong message, despite its noble intentions."
22:29:19 <flo> I don't think its intentions are noble :)
22:29:44 <flo> I just think that I don't have the skills to create a better icon, and the existing icon is way better than no icon at all
22:30:15 <ecaron> Are you open to me pursuing finding talent to help us spec together a better icon?
22:31:09 <LiquidRain> thanks for all the help earlier guys, I'll be back here once I have time to contribute some extensions to fill in the UI gaps I desire :)
22:31:26 <flo> LiquidRain: cool :)
22:31:50 <LiquidRain> in the meantime keep being awesome
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22:32:29 <ecaron> I'm going to sign off. I'm becoming belligerent and need to think of a better way to convey my ideas without them immediately getting dismissed as being underinformed.
22:33:25 <flo> ecaron: "Yes, but..."
22:33:26 <flo> - changing the icon takes an awful lot of time (it's almost everywhere, with lots of small variations). Probably more than you expect
22:33:26 <flo> - lots of people are already familiar with the current icon, so it would be nice if a new icon could "look similar" (same overall colors maybe?)
22:33:26 <flo> - such a topic is terribly bikeshedding prone.
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22:34:38 <flo> ecaron: if when I give you background information you take it as a dismissal of the idea, it's possible I didn't communicate my thoughts correctly ;).
22:35:51 <flo> ecaron: + if you are frustrated by something I/we said, please do tell me/us about it :)
22:36:25 <EionRobb> flo: this is what happens when you listen to your users.  really you should be ignoring them and telling them they're wrong ;)
22:37:47 <ecaron> flo: No worries. If I give the impression that I think any/most of the suggestions I make are simple, then I'm giving the wrong impression. I'm sure you remember the Firebird/Phoenix/Firefox issues and the pain but eventual benefit those shifts resulted in. For things like the icon, surely they aren't at that scale but I don't right it off lightly as being an immediate 15 minutes fix.
22:38:20 <flo> EionRobb: is "this" about my point on a "better icon" being bikeshedding prone, or the overall conversation with ecaron (who isn't thinking as a user here, more as someone with marketing concerns, which is fine)
22:38:23 <flo> ?
22:39:16 <ecaron> For the icon, going the route of the icon evolution and gradually changing it to a more obvious "I know what this program does" is probably the route everyone would want to follow anyway. (Everybody likes a "oo, that's slightly shinier" feeling after a software update, right?)
22:39:17 <EionRobb> nah, just ignore me.  I'm just stirring the pot
22:39:28 <flo> changing the icon on everything that has it would probably take several months (unless someone does it with an incredible motivation (hate of the previous icon? :-D)
22:39:35 <EionRobb> flo: what does "being bikeshedding prone" mean?
22:40:22 <flo> EionRobb: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding
22:40:29 <ecaron> EionRobb: It is an old BSD term. Basically it makes talking about the way the bikeshed (or garage) looks before the house is finished.
22:40:44 <ecaron> flo: Well Googled, sir.
22:40:58 <flo> heh ;)
22:41:30 <clokep> Bah Facebook auth is so terribly designed (as is Twitter)....don't allow users to log in multiple ways, use an email address OR a username, not BOTH.
22:41:47 <clokep> But yes, I knew we could log into Facebook via OAuth, I was planning to get around to doing that...I didn't realize Adium did that already. :)
22:41:56 <clokep> Unfortunately I think we'd have to hose everyone's Facebook account that way. :-/
22:42:06 <ecaron> Is there any potential downside to migrating the Facebook auth to using the Adium style?
22:42:31 <EionRobb> nope, just another parameter to store (or save the session key in the password if you don't want another one)
22:42:46 <ecaron> I love the answer of "It is inconvenient now, here is a link to why you might be having problems, but look for an easier setup in 1.1"
22:42:54 <flo> ecaron: migration of existing accounts maybe? I hope we can keep both and detect which one the user wanted to use
22:43:55 <flo> ecaron: I like that to :).
22:43:59 <flo> but not sure it will make 1.1.
22:44:24 <ecaron> Is there a way in bugzilla to get emails whenever a new bug is created?
22:44:38 <ecaron> I'd love to know the # for when this one is made so I can point people to it.
22:44:57 <flo> we keep adding stuff we want for that release, and I still want to release late august / early september (we will be doing time-based releases now), so... some things will have to go in whatever comes after 1.1 ;)
22:45:07 <flo> just file it then? ;)
22:45:18 <flo> instantbot announces all new bugs filed here
22:45:21 <instantbot> flo: Sorry, I've no idea what 'announces all new bugs filed here' might be.
22:45:32 <EionRobb> lol
22:45:42 <flo> if you want to follow all bugzilla activity, you can subscribe to the instanbird-bugs mailing list
22:46:20 * ecaron Subscribes to the instantbird-bugs mailing list.
22:46:22 <clokep> ecaron: The downside is that you need to support both mechanisms. ;)
22:46:39 <flo> can we put that on varuna's plate? :P
22:46:40 <clokep> Also did you send out an email response? I know you mentioned it a few days ago...not sure I missed something in my spam. :(
22:47:05 <clokep> flo: It's just another auth mechanism! Hopefully they're plug and play now....
22:47:08 <clokep> Speaking of which...
22:47:21 <clokep> We should CC him on that "let's change everything about jsProtoHelper bug"
22:47:35 <ecaron> clokep: Not yet, still pulling together some examples. Plus a San Francisco startup yanked my star developer at work so my free-time got kicked in the groin.
22:47:38 <flo> I planned to email him about it after pushing it
22:47:54 <clokep> Just was thinking of it on the way home. :)
22:48:10 <clokep> ecaron: OK! Sometimes gmail goes crazy w/ false positives.
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22:48:28 <flo> and telling him that if he needs input from me before I go in vacations... it's almost too late already :-/
22:48:34 * clokep would love a Test Pilot-esque extensions for Instantbird. :)
22:49:09 <clokep> And the icon could probably be a bit better, but I left that out of my reply re the bikeshedding issue. :)
22:49:28 <flo> I'll be away most of tomorrow (repairing/improving the AMI), then I'll be packing tomorrow evening and driving all day long Friday
22:54:22 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 938 filed by eric.caron@gmail.com.
22:54:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=938 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Migrate Facebook chat to use OAuth
22:56:39 <clokep> ecaron: Also see bug 538.
22:56:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=538 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Reimplement Facebook chat
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22:59:27 <EionRobb> I like it that you include me in there ;)
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23:01:51 <flo> EionRobb: aren't you slowly becoming an Instantbird developer? We just need to teach you to listen to our users and to love them ;)
23:02:51 <flo> oh, ecaron doesn't have canconfirm/editbugs yet it seems
23:02:53 <EionRobb> never! :D
23:07:06 <clokep> So I think Status reminder puts a double border around the textbox now. :-/
23:07:15 <clokep> But I'll be back in a few minutes.
23:07:59 <flo> clokep: uh, gtalk uses EmptyEnumerator
23:08:27 * flo doesn't edit that file finally :)
23:09:05 <clokep> Ah-ha. It does use it. :)
23:09:17 <-- mmkmou has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1a1pre)
23:09:17 <flo> sorry ;)
23:09:23 <clokep> It's fine. :)
23:10:30 <flo> you have tested this right? Can I push it without testing seriously?
23:11:49 <flo> JavaScript error: chrome://fake/content/fake.js, line 336: ClassInfo is not defined
23:11:49 <flo> hmm
23:13:08 <flo> JavaScript Error: "setTimeout is not defined" {file: "components/jsTestProtocol.js" line: 78}
23:17:45 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 749 on bug 758.
23:17:47 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Clean up jsProtoHelper
23:19:26 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/2825c6d440c4 - Patrick Cloke - Bug 758 - Clean up jsProtoHelper, r=fqueze.
23:19:27 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/96d28918a3c8 - Mouhamadou Moustapha CAMARA - Bug 929 - Add keyboard shortcuts to menu, r=fqueze.
23:19:28 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/63816cb54288 - Patrick Cloke - Bug 878 - Do not log UI system messages, r=fqueze.
23:20:38 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 929 to FIXED.
23:20:40 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=929 min, --, 1.1a1, mmkmou, RESO FIXED, Add keyboard shortcuts to menu
23:21:29 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 758 to FIXED.
23:21:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=758 min, --, ---, clokep, RESO FIXED, Clean up jsProtoHelper
23:22:09 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 878 to FIXED.
23:22:12 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=878 enh, --, 1.1a1, clokep, RESO FIXED, Do not log UI system messages.
23:23:39 <clokep> Fake I did not test. :-/
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23:35:54 <flo> clokep: neither jsTest ;)
23:36:08 <flo> anyway... good night! :)
23:36:11 <clokep> Goodnight!
23:36:20 <clokep> I thought we had a jsTest and then must have forgotten to check it...
23:36:27 <clokep> although I thought I lxr'd jsProtoHelper
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