#instantbird log on 07 08 2011

All times are UTC.

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00:05:41 <clokep> flo: The oauth key is kept in messenger.accounts.<id>.options.oauth, this seems kind of a weird place since I thought the .options part was for things had UI?
00:07:50 <DGMurdockIII> thats for you hidden messages flo
00:08:15 <DGMurdockIII> the nightly instaler wored gtread
00:09:42 <GeekShadow> anyone going to the rmll ?
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00:10:59 <clokep> rmII? What?
00:11:53 <GeekShadow> clokep, http://2011.rmll.info
00:12:17 <clokep> No.
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00:54:19 <clokep> Had to rebuild from scratch after that update, but it's done finally. :)
01:14:16 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 735 to bug 850.
01:14:18 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 735 on bug 850.
01:14:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Twitter should start from last known tweet
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01:43:03 <clokep> flo: I'm looking at bug 832, I kind of see what needs to be added, I need to modify imICommandsService.idl and purpleInitCommands.cpp to add a flag for IMs and for MUCs.
01:43:08 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=832 enh, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Differentiate commands that work only in MUCs for /help
01:43:35 <clokep> I don't see where to get the PurpleCmdFlag from though (so really I don't get how to link it into the libpurple code). Any hints?
01:45:05 <clokep> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/850 is what I have now, but it's definitely missing a bunch of parts, I'm just not sure how to get to them. :)
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02:13:12 <clokep> So for reference: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Firefox_5_for_developers is what we can currently possibly update now that we're on Gecko 5. I'm not sure if anything is useful.
02:15:23 <clokep> Maybe loadend for XHR, CSS animations and Dict.jsm, besides that, not very useful changes. ;)
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06:57:46 <eson57> Hi,
06:58:10 <eson57> thanks for this nice im client  :)
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08:48:05 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
08:48:56 <flo> hello :)
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09:34:57 <Mic> hi
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10:14:36 <clokep> 'morning.
10:14:59 <Mic> Good morning, clokep
10:18:29 * clokep wonders what language sv is.
10:18:37 <clokep> Swedish?
10:18:37 <Mic> swedish
10:18:46 <Mic> svenska
10:19:11 <flo> clokep: hello :)
10:19:30 <flo> ".options" is a bit misnamed, but the idea was to put there all the protocol-specific preferences
10:19:49 <flo> to separate them from those that are handled by the application
10:20:12 <flo> so I would really prefer the lastMessageId preference to be stored there too
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10:23:01 <clokep> Oh OK.
10:23:12 <clokep> In that case, we have helper functions in jsProtoHelper you should have used. :p
10:23:31 <clokep> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/jsProtoHelper.jsm#335
10:24:39 <clokep> I can change it to use that though, not an issue. :)
10:25:05 <flo> what should I have used when/where?
10:27:28 <clokep> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/twitter.js#199 could possibly use this.getCharPref, although those seem to assume there's some sort of default value to use if the pref doesn't exist, which clearly isn't the case of oauth.
10:27:47 <flo> and it will throw at http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/jsProtoHelper.jsm#739
10:28:46 <flo> I should have used this though: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/jsProtoHelper.jsm#339
10:28:56 <flo> to get the pref branch for the account options cleanly
10:29:07 <clokep> :)
10:29:15 <clokep> I apparently should have used it too.
10:29:21 <Mic> Is there a way to tell that a conversation tab was moved to a new window (or detached to get its own)? I need this to re-add my observer that gets lost in this process.
10:29:22 <clokep> So, I can fix both of those.
10:29:33 <Mic> I can file a bug if there isn't a way..
10:29:59 <flo> clokep: sounds good! :)
10:30:20 <flo> Mic: I would need to go read the code to find an answer
10:31:12 <flo> Mic: I would start reading around http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/convbrowser.xml#740 and http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/tabbrowser.xml#689
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10:39:16 <clokep> flo: was that my review btw or just in reply to my IRC comment last night? :P
10:39:44 <flo> mostly the reply to the IRC comment
10:39:49 <flo> but enough to give r-
10:40:27 <flo> as you pointed out, I suspect we can't land this until we have a way to open the timeline when no new message is received
10:40:44 <clokep> Right, I just have no idea how to do that. :(
10:42:21 <flo> why don't you read the pref inside the getTimelines method? It's the only place were it's used, isn't it?
10:42:39 <clokep> Hmmm...I guess it is, yes.
10:42:48 <clokep> I was thinking it was going to be used outside of it, but I guess it's not
10:43:37 <clokep> Good point. :)
10:43:44 <flo> what's the function closure for in your .sort call?
10:44:29 <flo> and what are all the !! for? :)
10:44:39 <clokep> sort() sorts lexigraphically by default.
10:44:45 <clokep> (Or however you spell that.)
10:45:02 <clokep> I think we've been using !! to force boolean?
10:45:05 <flo> ok, add a comment about that please :)
10:45:22 <flo> is there a reason why you need that in a if condition?
10:46:18 <clokep> You don't want to update the last known ID if no messages are received.
10:46:39 <clokep> It could really be if (this._knownMessageIds.length)
10:47:26 <flo> (!!{}) -> true.
10:47:33 <flo> so it seems you weren't testing what you wanted
10:49:14 <clokep> Yes, I wasn't.
10:49:50 * clokep wonders how his other code worked, the pref is saved properly...
10:50:19 <flo> don't you also need an Object.keys call or something?
10:50:20 <clokep> I really want to use the keys of the knownTweetIds, not the tweets...
10:50:22 <clokep> Yes.
10:50:27 <clokep> I just realized that wasn't an array.
10:50:30 <clokep> Bah, this was a messy patch.
10:50:49 <flo> Meh, no, that's "the first iteration of a promising patch" ;)
10:51:28 <clokep> Is there a way to handle this._knownMessageIds, to see if anything is in it?
10:51:38 <clokep> Or just check if Object.keys isn't empty? :P
10:52:08 <flo> you can just do that, yes
10:54:32 <Mic> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/290/ allows to scroll the conversation while the input box is focused. It's restartless, so don't hesitate to try it :)
10:54:36 <clokep> Needs to be tested, but I think many of the changes are good.
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10:59:26 <eson57> hello guys, I can see clokep found my repository request  :)
11:00:37 <clokep> eson57: Yes, I did. ;) You missed the put the language name. ;) I could have easily looked on a list though.
11:01:08 <eson57> ok... didn´t know I had to explain that   ;)
11:01:20 <clokep> You probably didn't, I just don't know many language codes. :)
11:01:44 <clokep> The extent of my language codes is en-US and maybe en-UK. ;)
11:02:26 <clokep> Anyway, I'm late. Bbl.
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11:02:41 <eson57> yes, and the code for swedish is sv and sv-SE... I really don´t understand the difference
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11:19:53 <Mic2> sv-SE means that it's swedish/Sweden
11:20:04 <Mic2> I guess there's something like sv-FI ? 
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11:20:34 <Mic2> At least there's a swedish speaking minority in Finland and it's an official language there iirc
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11:55:25 <clokep_work> Interesting. Learned something new today then. :)
11:55:32 <flo> clokep_work: it's en-GB for the United Kingdom :-P.
11:55:56 <clokep_work> flo: Yeah, yeah. Same thing. ;)
11:56:12 <clokep_work> Australia has one too, right? en-AU?
11:56:27 <flo> yeah
11:57:06 <flo> eson57: your repository request has all the info we really need. Thanks for volunteering! :). 
11:58:06 <flo> anybody knows if the portable instantbird versions recently released do update pings on our servers?
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11:58:44 <clokep_work> flo: I doubt that it does, I think they have their own update mechanism?
11:58:55 <clokep_work> Did JohnThaller email you? I wasn't sure if he was goign to or not.
11:59:10 <flo> yes, but I haven't replied yet as I haven't examined all the links he sent me
11:59:32 <flo> I wanted to at least give a look at the source code for their launcher before replying
12:00:33 <eson57> flo: no problem. I´m ready when you are.  :)
12:00:37 <clokep_work> Fair enough. :) I figured it was OK to have them list it on their page though, not sure if we want to list it anywhere.
12:01:26 <flo> yeah, it's totally ok. Just wondering what it means for our stats ;)
12:01:42 <clokep_work> Are we up to date on adding all the new locales?
12:01:50 <clokep_work> (Btw would we want to put those builds up under "contrib" also?)
12:01:54 <flo> clokep_work: I haven't added any of them.
12:02:42 <flo> I'm waiting for:
12:02:42 <flo> 1. The l10n infrastructure being in a usable state again. (:().
12:02:43 <flo> 2. The libpurple upgrade, so that they start with libpurple 2.9.0 rather than 2.7.11 and having to update.
12:03:00 <clokep_work> Ah right. :) I forgot you were waiting for the libpurple upgrade!
12:03:26 <flo> it's possible it wasn't such a good idea...
12:03:52 <flo> I think we would really need to have someone here advocating for localizers, and coordinating their efforts ;)
12:05:41 <clokep_work> I'm clearly not the person. ;)
12:06:23 <flo> where's the page on AMO listing the allowed maxVersion we can put in install.rdf?
12:07:01 <clokep_work> Uhhh...try uploading an extension with an unsupported version and it'll give it to you? :)
12:07:08 <flo> ah, https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/pages/appversions/
12:07:38 <flo> so 4.* is not allowed
12:07:47 <flo> but 5.* and up to 8.* are allowed
12:07:50 <flo> :(
12:07:58 <clokep_work> Are you updating one of your extensions?
12:07:59 <flo> ah, no, not 8.*, only 8.0
12:08:05 <flo> I'm updating Firefox
12:08:33 <flo> in the hope that the restart will free enough memory for me to fire up a Windows VM to test the libpurple update
12:08:52 <flo> and there's an add-on I really want to continue using, so I more or less have to update it
12:09:14 <clokep_work> Ah, what add-on?
12:09:38 <flo> https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/autoclose-tabs
12:10:07 <flo> I can't browse without it
12:10:31 <clokep_work> Ah, but it is your extension!
12:10:46 <flo> it keeps my average number of open tabs between 20-30
12:10:53 <clokep_work> :) Nice.
12:10:56 <flo> overwise I'm at over 200 within a day
12:11:01 <flo> *otherwise
12:11:11 <clokep_work> Yeah, I have tab proliferation problems sometimes.
12:11:29 <flo> it becomes a problem only when Firefox starts paging them off to the disk
12:11:32 <eson57> Mic2: You´re right... swedish-finland i sv-FI...   http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.globalization.cultureinfo(v=vs.71).aspx
12:11:45 <flo> and it's a disaster when it does that massively because of a VM
12:12:22 <aleth> Just updated to Aurora 7 - it's an amazing improvement :)
12:13:00 <flo> currently Firefox uses ~800MB of ram, it seems a bit excessive, so I hope restarting would reduce the memory usage of the few tabs I haven't closed
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12:13:15 <aleth> about:memory is also interesting, you can now trigger a cleanup
12:13:24 <flo> that was already possible before
12:13:29 <flo> just hidden
12:13:31 <aleth> but the details are interesting
12:13:41 <aleth> you can see what happens
12:13:48 <flo> :)
12:14:17 <aleth> plus they improved the font rendering on Linux, that really is key for me
12:15:45 * aleth also has too many tabs open
12:17:21 <aleth> regarding your add-on, you know that if you move "old" tabs into a different tab group, they are not loaded on startup, so cost no memory? 
12:17:31 <aleth> though that does not take care of the tab proliferation problem ;)
12:18:48 <flo> "not loaded on startup" is not relevant when Firefox is restarted less than once per month ;).
12:19:43 <aleth> :)
12:20:16 <aleth> couldn't have done that pre FF 7, would eat up too much memory over time... 
12:20:37 <flo> (yeah, I'm a bit of a pathological case ;). I always put the laptop to sleep and restart it only when the OS crashes, which is about every 60 days on Mac OS X for me)
12:21:52 <Mic2> Maybe chrome for restartless addons made a good step forward yesterday afternoon: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=564667#c13
12:23:38 <flo> :)
12:39:49 <clokep_work> Bleh "Anyway it’s early days and still missing a few features such as protocol specific smileys and email notification didn’t seem to work."...don't we purposefully not have protocol specific smilies?
12:40:50 <flo> bah...
12:40:54 <flo> where did you read that?
12:41:04 <clokep_work> flo: http://www.freewaregenius.com/2011/07/05/instantbird-one-stop-shop-instant-messaging-client/
12:41:11 <clokep_work> I was about to reply...
12:41:51 <aleth> who on earth wants protocol-specific smileys :|
12:42:29 <aleth> lol @ "Does not provide desktop-email checking functionality"
12:42:48 <clokep_work> aleth: A lot of people want the email checking functionality for the protocols that support it. :-/
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12:45:04 <flo> yeah, that "email notification" thing is probably going to be "wanted" in the near future
12:45:04 <clokep_work> I thought we actually had an add-on for protocol specific smilies though...
12:45:42 <aleth> clokep_work: amazing. but "email notification" seems like add-on territory
12:47:13 <clokep_work> igorko: Why is https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/283 necessary? To install it for other locales?
12:48:44 <clokep_work> I didn't realize he got this working: https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/282 That's pretty neat.
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13:00:37 <flo> clokep_work: yes, it's for other locales
13:00:38 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 735 on bug 850.
13:00:40 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Twitter should start from last known tweet
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13:01:23 <clokep_work> :'(
13:01:23 <flo> there's no reason to include an en-US dictionary by default for people who use a localized build because they don't speak English :)
13:01:37 <clokep_work> Yup. just making sure I understand why it was there. :)
13:01:47 <flo> ":'(" hmm?
13:02:58 <flo> apparently our Mac installer looks like this on Mac OS X 10.7 (Lion) http://s3.amazonaws.com/imgly_production/1427899/large.png :(
13:06:59 <clokep_work> Is that wrong? :P
13:07:08 <clokep_work> :'( Was for my r-, but I saw it coming. ;)
13:07:12 <clokep_work> I already fixed most of the stuff anway.
13:11:36 <flo> looking at crash stats makes me sad. We have ~130 crashes on Mac OS X when opening the pref window :(
13:12:26 <flo> ah, in the comments someone mentioned trying to open the about dialog rather than the pref window
13:12:44 <flo> but the 2 items are next to each others so it's possible he didn't click the one he thought
13:17:46 <flo> on the + side, we have enough data (except on Mac where are stacks aren't readable :'() to attempt to improve our stability :)
13:18:58 <flo> we have 33 reports for the "known" OSCAR crash
13:19:22 <flo> 14 reports for a windows-only crash that looks fixable
13:19:31 <flo> 16 for another that seems fixable too
13:19:44 <aleth> "Was expecting Nightly to be dark interface, like night time, but its same as other firefox recently made."
13:20:37 <clokep_work> Hahah.
13:20:49 <clokep_work> Well that's good that we have fixable crashers! They in libpurple or purplexpcom?
13:21:01 <flo> libpurple
13:21:41 <Mic1> aleth: lol
13:21:50 <flo> there are lots of MSN crashers with only a few reports per crash
13:30:16 <clokep_work> Mic2: Is bug 828 closed?
13:30:20 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=828 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Suggested changes for/problems with translations for german localization
13:30:22 <clokep_work> Mic1 rather ^ ^
13:36:49 <Mic1> Does pasting a URL into the "Install extension from file"-file picker only work on Windows or in general?
13:37:46 <flo> the file picker has no textbox on Mac :-P
13:38:08 <Mic1> Ah, ok.. I remember. Apples knows what you should do or not :P
13:38:49 <Mic1> *Apple
13:45:48 <flo> http://www.komando.com/downloads/category.aspx?id=11027 is currently sending us lots of people.
13:46:02 <flo> I don't know why (the site is bloated with ads and the article is super short)
13:46:54 <clokep_work> That article looks like it's written by a fifth grader! (No offense to fifth graders.)
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13:47:50 <flo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Komando
13:49:07 <flo> or is that page just a summary of something said on a radio show? (wikipedia says "The Kim Komando Show is broadcast and syndicated on over 450 radio stations in the U.S. and two stations in Ontario, Canada.")
13:50:55 <clokep_work> Maybe?
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13:56:41 <Mic1> d'oh
13:56:53 <clokep_work> ?
13:57:23 <Mic1> "Kim Komando" .. umm, sounds a bit like a porn actor's/actress' name :D
13:58:59 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 273 to WORKSFORME.
13:59:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=273 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Detacting a tab above the Firefox content area doesn't work
13:59:48 <Mic1> :)
14:00:14 <Mic1> Only 418 left ;)
14:00:25 <flo> want me to file some more?
14:01:11 <Mic1> You can file #900 if you're quick ;)
14:01:21 <clokep_work> We can close one more if that German translation one can be closed. ;)
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14:02:14 <clokep_work> < half our bugs are open, thta's good, right? :P
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14:07:28 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 828 to FIXED.
14:07:30 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=828 nor, --, 1.0, nobody, RESO FIXED, Suggested changes for/problems with translations for german localization
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14:09:40 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 900 filed by aletheia2@fastmail.fm.
14:09:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=900 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, "Join chat" dialog to remember previous usage
14:13:06 <aleth> Mic: your wish is my command ;)
14:18:07 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 734 to INVALID.
14:18:09 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=734 enh, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, The Forest database proposal
14:18:11 <aleth> argh, a dupe
14:18:28 <clokep_work> aleth: Yours isn't necessarily a dup.
14:18:31 <aleth> ah, not quite
14:18:34 <clokep_work> Just...has some overlap. :)
14:18:36 <aleth> I misunderstood
14:19:00 <aleth> There's a whole network of related "bugs" (feature request) already in there
14:19:51 <aleth> e.g. chatrooms-as-contacts...
14:21:46 <aleth> not related for coding purposes of course
14:24:00 <clokep_work> Hmmm...can we just persist dropdowns? That would make it easy. :P
14:24:05 <clokep_work> Yes, there's a bunch of them...
14:24:34 <clokep_work> I never appreciated chatrooms as contacts, but I guess it'd be useful for some.
14:24:43 <clokep_work> They're all kind of related but trying to get to the same point I think.
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14:25:18 <aleth> Yes, that's what I meant. If the Join chat dialog is friendlier, you dont need to store rooms as contacts
14:26:06 <clokep_work> Ideally we'd like to replace it with the new tab kind of idea...which I think everyone has different ideas on. :P Not sure if there's a bug on it.
14:26:12 <flo> If we remove the join chat dialog, we don't need to fix it :)
14:26:42 <aleth> At the moment it's a bit of a pain... "what was the name of that channel I was in the other day? it's gone... oh, I can't even look it up in a list..."
14:27:01 <clokep_work> You can look in your logs folder. ;)
14:27:11 <aleth> *I* can...
14:28:07 <aleth> Integrating it with the new tab would be excellent, but you still have to design the interface ;)
14:30:15 <flo> we need to design the UI and we also need to store the useful data ;)
14:32:11 <aleth> arguably the logs folder already contains the data ;)
14:33:00 <clokep_work> If you want to parse text logs. Aka, not really.
14:33:04 <flo> that's a good point.
14:33:30 <flo> clokep_work: we just need to crawl the directories to get the chatroom names + the number of time each room has been joined
14:34:09 <flo> it's ugly, but it could be used to import the data about previous usage the first time of a build with the new "New conversation" tab is started
14:35:06 <clokep_work> You could actually do chatroom names + number of logs files * size of log file if you want to weight the rooms also.
14:35:21 <flo> :)
14:35:41 <flo> + take into account the date of the log
14:36:28 <clokep_work> Sweet, now someone just needs to implement it! :P
14:38:33 <flo> and I think we also want to use the list of rooms the IRC server can send us ;)
14:39:43 <clokep_work> Yes, that's available via libpurple I believe? If I can ever figure out how to hack on libpurple I'd be interested in adding the hooks for that.
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14:43:46 <deOmega> godo day.  clokep.. how did i get that single click addon... wasn't it on the addon page? (I do not see it there is why I am asking)
14:44:05 <flo> deOmega: hello :)
14:44:06 <clokep_work> deOmega: No, it was in an attachment in a bug.
14:44:16 <clokep_work> If you update to the latest nightly it has support for that out of the box. ;)
14:45:02 <clokep_work> aleth: bug 630 is the (very bikesheddy) bug about the new conversation tab idea...
14:45:05 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unable to send an IM to someone not on your buddy list
14:45:11 <deOmega> ah, I saw an email and that is all they are asking for.  man, THAT is very special to see
14:45:21 <deOmega> so wondering if there is a way to  get access to it
14:45:32 <deOmega> for those notw anting the nightly
14:46:11 <clokep_work> I can upload it, but I really don't want to maintain it. :-/
14:46:41 <deOmega> hi flo:  the stats are growing it seems :)
14:46:56 <deOmega> *is
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14:47:33 <deOmega> but io woudl it need maintaining since it woudl be ready in the next release?   Coudl probably be pulled after teh next release. no?
14:47:44 <flo> deOmega: maybe those not wanting the nightly can wait for the next release to have it?
14:47:58 <deOmega> hmmm.  THat is agood point
14:48:15 <flo> I think we will release in August or September
14:48:15 <deOmega> If you want it bad enough, you do anightly.  Makes sense
14:48:32 <deOmega> or go through the bug.  I will reference the bug
14:49:01 <clokep_work> deOmega: Are you already replying to that? I wrote a few sentences. :P
14:49:03 <deOmega> if i can be so bold to answer and answer properly this time :)
14:49:19 <deOmega> no, i have not gotten there, so go for it
14:49:27 <deOmega> man,  you guys are efficient
14:49:45 <clokep_work> deOmega: You can answer it.
14:49:50 <clokep_work> Let me upload the extension and bump the version.
14:50:16 <deOmega> the extension willbe in the bug, right?
14:50:40 <clokep_work> deOmega: I'm going to upload it onto AIO.
14:50:53 <deOmega> ohh.  ok, i will wait then
14:51:26 <deOmega> but man, it is pretty awesome that this is all someone  desires
14:51:44 <deOmega> haha, i take that back LOL
14:52:50 <deOmega> yeah, I think responding to this has just move dout of my league (He added more suggestions)
14:54:58 <clokep_work> deOmega: Feel free to respond to the first one and I'll respond to the second one, the add-on is at https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/291/ (remember to reply to him and to CC the list! :))
14:57:10 <deOmega> OK,  will do
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14:58:44 <clokep_work> Thanks. :)
14:58:48 <flo> I had only 2 lines to change to make my "update to libpurple 2.9.0" patch build on Windows.
14:59:12 <clokep_work> :)
14:59:21 * clokep_work has no idea what to use as a preview image for that extension. ;)
14:59:26 <flo> by the way, are we sure of what the current situation is with ICQ connection issues? Should we post something on the blog about it?
15:00:15 <clokep_work> I'm not positive, but I added my account again and the defaults didn't work. :-
15:00:26 <clokep_work> I'd like someone else to confirm it though.
15:04:23 <flo> Should I be worried that I can't seem to connect an MSN account in my new Windows build with the new libpurple? (The same thing works fine on Mac + the VM has strange network issues that break hg to the point of not being able to hg pull anything).
15:05:22 <deOmega> ... this behavior is currently built into the nightly releases of Instantbird, so the next official release should eliminate the need for the add-on.
15:05:25 <deOmega> is that accurate?
15:05:32 <flo> uh, well, on Mac it "connects fine" but crashes after dumping some garbage to my terminal :-S
15:05:35 <clokep_work> deOmega: Yes. :)
15:05:46 <clokep_work> flo: Sounds like there's an issue then. :(
15:06:57 <deOmega> ok done.. fingers crossed that it went well :)
15:09:15 <deOmega> clokep_work: thanks.  if it would help you guys any, I will  try to respond to the straight-forward  questions.
15:09:15 <flo> I was about to say "I can't reproduce" after restarting the Mac debug build and connecting fine again, but it crashed in the same way when I clicked "disconnected" on the account :-(
15:10:13 <deOmega> and clokep, maybe just a system-tray icon with the  mouse over instantbird?
15:10:48 <clokep_work> deOmega: That would be appreciated. :)
15:11:01 <clokep_work> That picture could work, but is lame and doesn't show anything. :P But maybe.
15:11:44 <deOmega> lol
15:14:55 <deOmega> one final question:  I see ecaron was asking about  features required for  twitter.    To be honest, i  got lost  over teh past   days trying to understand what he will be doing, because it seems like he will be helping in  multiple ways.. so...
15:15:08 <deOmega> his request about features wanted for  twitter:
15:15:41 <deOmega> are we referring to the twitter interface that someone like me currently use?    oh, he is in here as his name lit up :)
15:16:02 <ecaron> deOmega: Trying to figure out how to answer your comment:)
15:16:18 <deOmega> if so.. would  the bug i file be helpful?
15:16:26 <deOmega> *filed
15:16:57 <deOmega> the last  part is really teh question
15:17:24 <ecaron> As far as "what he will be doing," don't expect much from me in the next 3 months in terms of development. I'm trying to put together a marketing plan and think I'll be most useful to the project that way.
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15:18:33 <deOmega> the question is really just the latter.. the other rambling was just preparatory
15:18:34 <ecaron> As far as my engagement with the conversation regarding Twitter features, I'm just trying to provide insight into what I think would make the Twitter feature more useful given I've spent more time on it and have had the experience of using many different Twitter clients over the years and watched the usage-pains that people have experienced when picking up new Twitter tools.
15:19:30 <ecaron> "Are we referring to the twitter interface that someone like me currently use?" We're talking about the current Twitter offerings integrated into the core of IB
15:19:50 <deOmega> Ah.. that is really fantastic!
15:20:42 <clokep_work> Aka it's the "Make Twitter on Instantbird not suck" idea. ;)
15:21:10 <deOmega> I must  let you know that  often times i may not catch exactly what is  being said/discussed, because  of the jargon used here.  
15:21:18 <ecaron> I was thinking "Make it so people don't judge Instantbird by its Twitter interface" idea:)
15:22:33 <clokep_work> ecaron: Fair enough! :)
15:23:11 <flo> and I had a third way of saying the same thing? :-P "Ensure I don't need to load twitter.com in my browser again" :-)
15:23:24 <flo> *can I add a third way
15:23:28 <ecaron> Could somebody confirm that when I cross the line from being useful into the area of stepping on other people's areas that I'll be put back in my place?
15:24:12 <ecaron> I shudder thinking I could answer things for deOmega and be pissing people off in the process
15:24:46 <deOmega> Sometimes I read the logs  and thought it may be something you are doing on the web, but you have cleared it up remarkably.  Additionally,  I am seeing that you have far more experience with twitter and so I  do not need 'struggle' to go out  gathering experience points from others to give you feedback.  :).. I will just  complain about  your work when you start posting the progress :)
15:24:49 <clokep_work> We generally try to be rather easy going, but you certainly haven't stepped on anyone's toes! Been very helpful. :)
15:24:49 <flo> if someone is pissed off, you will know :)
15:25:05 <clokep_work> ecaron: Did you get my memoserv about the mailing list btw?
15:25:25 <ecaron> clokep: Yup, I'm reading them all when they come in.
15:25:39 <clokep_work> OK. :) We just curious if you knew about it or not.
15:25:46 <clokep_work> We don't always communicate our contact methods well.
15:25:53 <deOmega> ecaron:  Thank you. :)
15:27:13 <ecaron> flo: Are you using other Twitter clients while you think about beefing up IB's offerings?
15:27:47 <deOmega> And  just so you know, i am a very basic IB user only.. so if you want basic feedback (hopefully, common sense) I can do that :).  BUt  do not get  technically deep.. you would lose me.
15:28:56 <flo> ecaron: no, I'm just dogfooding Instantbird :)
15:30:12 <ecaron> I really think only using Twitter via Instantbird (in its current state) & Twitter.com don't give an accurate view of what the client could/should do.
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15:31:53 <ecaron> I just keep coming back to the discussion yesterday about viewing conversations and thinking about how to get you immersed in some fruitful Twitter conversations or Twitter chats
15:32:34 <ecaron> (Like the #hfchat that's about to start in 30 minutes: http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23hfchat)
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15:38:24 <deOmega> nice...that covers part of  flo's encompassing thought huh:  "Ensure I don't need to load twitter.com in my browser again"
15:39:27 <deOmega> ok guys, have a great day!  thanks for the feedback and all you do.
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15:40:55 <flo> ecaron: I'm not sure I understand. Is this just a hashtag that lots of people watch at once to interact quickly with strangers interested in the same subject?
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15:42:35 <ecaron> flo: Exactly, people use a common hashtag to get together in a group chat. Some people just watch the stream, some people moderate, its a very popular Twitter activity
15:42:57 <flo> "some people moderate" ?
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15:45:08 <flo> clokep_work: bug 772 is about the order of contacts inside a group, not the order of groups
15:45:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=772 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Use a sortComparator function on groups to allow easy changing of the order of contacts
15:45:48 <clokep_work> Bleh. :(
15:46:06 <clokep_work> My bad.
15:46:11 <clokep_work> He wont' look anyway. ;)
15:47:26 <flo> haha, I thought the same :)
15:47:53 <flo> bah, I should finish that post on our differences with Pidgin
15:47:59 <ecaron> flo: I mean people moderate in the sense that people lead and steer the conversation.
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16:08:38 <clokep_work> Unfortunately trying to force Twitter into a conversation type UI is kind of painful (and bad).
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16:16:56 <clokep_work> Mook_as: You were supposed to remind Mic1 about something. ;)
16:17:22 <Mook_as> oh, right, addon maxversion bumping for something. the bug numbers one, I think?
16:17:45 <clokep_work> Link Bugzilla
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16:22:55 <flo> I hate when people send support requests as comments on blog posts that have absolutely nothing to do with their problem
16:23:23 <Mook_as> be glad you're not reading the songbird blog comments, then :)
16:23:30 <flo> someone is asking on "Instantbird 0.2 feature preview: protocols as extensions": "I'm sorry but even though I can get around most things, adding a profile picture to my InstantBird seems to be a bit daunting! Is there an update coming that will make it where we can add a profile picture?"
16:24:01 <flo> is it unfair censorship if I don't validate these comments? :-|
16:24:29 <Mook_as> oh, the obvious answer to that is "sure, you can implement your own protocol as an extension that takes a pref for the path to your profile picture, then build your own UI on top of that"
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16:33:45 <clokep_work> Bah, who wants to hear a sound every time someone posts in a channel? :p
16:33:57 <clokep_work> Use your extension and match on .* ;)
16:34:07 <flo> if it's a MUC with 2-3 coworkers, it may make sense
16:34:16 <clokep_work> Ah, that's true.
16:34:25 <Mook_as> or a support channel, perhaps
16:34:25 <clokep_work> A "semi-"private chat. ;)
16:34:28 <flo> you meant highlight?
16:34:30 <Mic1> Try that it in #ubuntu on freenode ;)
16:34:32 <clokep_work> Yes.
16:34:44 <clokep_work> I forget whether it takes a regex or not though.
16:34:45 <Mook_as> Mic1: try it in #bugs here ;)
16:34:48 <flo> that would put a lot of bold text ;)
16:34:50 <clokep_work> Although you could just always return true, I think.
16:35:03 <clokep_work> Ahah, I forgot it doe sthat. :)
16:35:03 <flo> clokep_work: better than a regexp, it takes some JS code! :)
16:35:07 <Mic1> Bug 123
16:35:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123 maj, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Stacks for exceptions are unusable
16:35:21 <clokep_work> Does it work? ;)
16:36:04 <Mook_as> also: thanks for the version bump
16:36:05 <Mic1> I read it on the log an updated the compatibility this morning already, this was only a test again ;)
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16:36:34 <Mook_as> hmm, why did ib start in safe mode?
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16:37:20 <flo> Mook_as: mozilla2 seems to do that sometimes after some updates. I saw it a few times, but I've never been able to find steps to reproduce
16:37:35 <Mic1> You're welcome.. thanks for letting me know that it needed an update.
16:37:58 <Mook_as> flo: for my case, it was right after I installed link bugzilla and hit restart from the addon manager
16:38:04 <Mook_as> which was... rather counter-productive ;)
16:38:13 <flo> ahah
16:40:27 <Mook_as> hmm, gtalk contact tooltip things seems to have multiple statuses for various clients connected to that account. it would be nice if I could rename them so I know which is which - I don't _really_ need to contact my coworkers while they're at home :D
16:40:55 <clokep_work> "rename them" to what though?
16:41:09 <Mook_as> a string of my choosing - "home", "work", "phone", "gmail"
16:41:29 <clokep_work> Ah, OK. I thought you meant rename them to some information we already had. :)
16:41:33 <Mook_as> (only for display, not actually anything to do with the back end)
16:41:51 <Mook_as> haha. no, I don't expect instantbird to perform magic. yet, anyway.
16:42:00 <Mook_as> (also, I guess I can't change my own client identifier thinger)
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16:44:09 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep_work 
16:44:37 <clokep_work> Mook_as: Just tell your coworkers to use better resource IDs. ;)
16:44:42 <clokep_work> Most clients let you customize it.
16:44:52 <Mook_as> not instantbird (post-account-creation) though ;)
16:45:49 <clokep_work> Touche. We have a bug about that in fact. libpurple using it as part of the unique identifier, so once it's created, you can't change it.
16:46:23 <clokep_work> https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=429#c3
16:46:26 <instantbot> Bug 429 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, edit username
16:46:32 <clokep_work> Perhaps in our JS version we can have varuna fix that? :)
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16:47:47 <clokep_work> Ah but bug 491 is the actual one about it. :)
16:47:50 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=491 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, XMPP and XMPP based protocols don't allow Resource name to be changed without deleting.
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16:57:32 <Mic1> clokep_work: what program did you use for this mockup: https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/attachment.cgi?id=430 ?
16:58:16 <clokep_work> Mic1: Uhhh...I used...(one second)....
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16:59:39 <clokep_work> Mic1: I used Mockery: http://getmockery.com/
17:00:13 <Mic1> Thanks
17:03:09 <clokep_work> There's also "Pencil": http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Home.aspx which I didn't like as much at the time.
17:05:48 <Mic1> Maybe I'll use mspaint :D
17:07:05 <Mook_as> I've also heard good things about balsamiq (but never used it myself)
17:11:44 <clokep_work> Eek, expensive. :(
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17:16:12 <Mook_as> oh. dang, never looked at it hard enough to figure out how much it costs. nevermind.
17:16:46 <clokep_work> I liked Mockery better, but it's $30 I think? So I think I only used it for the first month, although I have a new computer now...;)
17:17:24 <clokep_work> Neither Mockery nor Pencil seem to have been updated in a long long time though.
17:17:33 <clokep_work> Oh I lied, Mockery is also $69, so never mind. :-D
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17:30:36 <flo> the first 4 lines of http://achton.net/projects/pidgin/ make me smile
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17:36:58 <clokep_work> Hahah. Sounds like they don't want to release stable things. :P
17:48:55 * Fan|away is now known as Fantasm
18:04:27 <flo> I've finished a draft of that post comparing Instantbird to Pidgin
18:05:07 <Mook_as> for windows: pidgin: bloated (glib/gtk), ib: extra bloated (glib+xulrunner) ? :p
18:05:08 <flo> http://typewith.me/a5Jiw8vdF4
18:05:36 <clokep_work> But it's al ot prettier! :)
18:05:58 <flo> my answer to the question is basically "We love you." :-D
18:07:08 <flo> ok, I'm driving home, that will give you all some time for proof reading :)
18:07:19 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1a1pre)
18:11:14 <Mook_as> sounds mostly good. now go fix my crashes on resume ;)
18:18:28 <clokep_work> :P
18:18:30 <clokep_work> It's long hah.
18:18:49 <clokep_work> Good thing I need to compile something!
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18:31:25 <Mic1> "Users are always right", is that really what you wanted to say, flo?
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18:32:10 <Mook_as> that's awesome. I'm a user, and I want you to give me all your money.
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18:32:30 <clokep_work> Mic1: Yeah I think that paragraph needs a little work.
18:32:32 <Mic1> I'm a user and I object to this. Hand it over to ME.
18:32:58 <clokep_work> More of "We believe the users always have a valid complaint, but we may not always agree how to solve it." or something.
18:33:23 <Mic1> That's good :)
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18:34:19 <Mic1> I wanted to say something similiar and point to the "Time Bubbles" solution for the "There are no timestamps" problem
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18:36:38 * Mic1 likes the "We love you." at the end :D
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18:39:56 <clokep_work> Yes, that would be reasonable to point to!
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18:42:22 <Mic1> And point out that we don't only want a solution for a problem but a good solution.
18:43:18 <aleth> re start on boot: KDE does this automatically as long as you don't quit IB before restarting (and have appropriate desktop settings)
18:44:32 <aleth> this should "just work" even for inexperienced users
18:50:04 <clokep_work> Ah, cool features of Linux. :P
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18:59:57 <DGMurdockIII> http://l10n.kde.org/docs/admin/autostart-and-runonce.html
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19:03:37 <DGMurdockIII> make a shell script and put it somewhere else, copy it in and out when that option is toggled
19:03:49 <DGMurdockIII> that should work, there are probably other ways too
19:04:02 <DGMurdockIII> and use KStandardDirs to know where the autostart folder is
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19:33:15 <DGMurdockIII> PREFIX/share/autostart
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19:35:23 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Mic2): look at this http://developer.gnome.org/autostart-spec/
19:35:23 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Mic12): look at this http://developer.gnome.org/autostart-spec/
19:37:17 <DGMurdockIII> that will work for kde as well
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19:51:37 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 27 to WORKSFORME.
19:51:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27 maj, P5, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Error loading purplexpcom with SELinux
19:51:58 --> aleth has joined #instantbird
19:53:59 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 61 to WONTFIX.
19:54:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=61 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WONTFIX, Sametime: buddy list not loaded fully after connect
20:05:58 <Mook_as> bug 27 was probably just "the gcc used to compile instantbird was updated"
20:06:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=27 maj, P5, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, Error loading purplexpcom with SELinux
20:08:44 <clokep_work> Probably, I'm kind of just closing stuff that we haven't heard from people in a long time.
20:11:38 <Mic1> I wonder how many more are there where I asked for feedback and got none
20:11:39 <DGMurdockIII> and X-KDE-autostart-condition for toggling on/off via foorc preference
20:11:58 <Mic1> Maybe we should put something on the whiteboard for these bugs
20:12:47 <clokep_work> We probably should, "[last-chance-before-we-close-you]"? :P
20:13:05 <Mook_as> or a custom field so you can sort by its (text) contents
20:13:14 <DGMurdockIII> mic : did you look at link i sent you
20:13:21 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Mic2): did you look at link i sent you
20:13:21 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Mic12): did you look at link i sent you
20:16:07 <Mic1> No, if this link is useful, you better post it at the respective bug report
20:17:07 <Mic1> And please don't send messages multiple times, if you really need to ping several people, you can still do "name1, name2, name: blablablubs"
20:18:37 --> flo has joined #instantbird
20:18:37 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
20:19:49 * clokep_work looking through old bugs notices that flo says he should verify bug 298. ;)
20:19:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=298 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, UpdateServerAlias uselessly called when the user aliases a buddy
20:20:42 <flo> clokep_work: did I specify when I should do that? :-D
20:21:11 <clokep_work> Haha, no. :) Just trying to close old stuff that's not valid.
20:21:35 <clokep_work> Ah someone was asking for bug 320 earlier with wanting the @, +, etc. in front of people
20:21:37 <clokep_work> s names on IRC.
20:21:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=320 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, On IRC, message themes should have a way to know the status (op/halfop/voiced/...) of the person who
20:23:14 <flo> that (298) looks painful ;)
20:24:27 <flo> do you think my draft is likely to offend anyone on the Pidgin side?
20:25:50 <clokep_work> flo: I do not think so, it was similar to my "Why rewrite ChatZilla" post.
20:26:06 <flo> do you think chatzilla people liked your post? ;)
20:26:12 <flo> or have they even seen it :)
20:26:48 <flo> (what if I post a "let's kill Chatzilla" post in a few days? :-P)
20:27:35 <clokep_work> I doubt if they liked it, but it wasn't really' "lets kill chatzilla", just like yours isn't "let's kill pidgin" it's "let's offer an alertnative"
20:27:52 <clokep_work> And I doubt they really saw it (although it was put onto PMO. :P It got a lot of traffic too).
20:29:25 <flo> I don't want to kill Pidgin
20:29:35 <flo> but Chatzilla is in our way.
20:29:38 <Mic1> I'd be a bit offended if I were a Pidgin developer but that doesn't have to mean a thing ("they're thinking of themselves, we think about our users")
20:30:06 <Mic1> Maybe I just got the wrong attitude to belong there ;)
20:30:27 <flo> I'm a bit sad I don't have an official document to quote about that :(
20:30:33 <clokep_work> Mook_as: I think your opinion might be of use here as you're a bit farther from Instantbird (which hopefully I don't insult you by saying...)
20:31:07 <clokep_work> Also, yes, that's a little insulting to them? But honestly have you ever been in #pidgin? It's 100% their attitude.
20:31:10 <flo> ecaron's opinion would be interesting too, as he cares about marketing :)
20:31:11 <aleth> you could be magnanimous and concede Pidgin is better for those requiring all the little options and details, voice chat and so on
20:31:31 <flo> aleth: Pidgin doesn't support voice chat
20:31:32 <aleth> it's not really conceding a lot as if you need that stuff, you won't switch anyway (yet)
20:31:41 <flo> and it supports file transfer, but it doesn't actually work
20:31:51 <aleth> flo: you mean it only pretends to?
20:32:05 <flo> it's only on linux and only on XMPP
20:32:07 <aleth> because the option is there, at least for jabber
20:32:16 <aleth> ah, that explains it ;)
20:32:22 <aleth> all i ever used :D
20:32:23 <clokep_work> Time to go, bbs.
20:32:26 <flo> (= nobody can use it)
20:32:30 <-- clokep_work has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
20:35:04 <Mook_as> clokep_work: no, not insulted at all. I was just afk ;)
20:36:10 <Mook_as> I think that draft was pretty diplomatic. that means, to some extent, it's light on content, but... it's probably fine.
20:37:09 <-- chrisccoulson has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)
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20:41:08 <flo> Mook_as: heh, the intent is not to answer the question "Why Pidgin sucks?" (even though some people may guess by reading between the lines)
20:41:51 <Mook_as> yeah. also, that's easy: "it's not instantbird" (for all values of "it") :p
20:43:03 <flo> uh?
20:44:11 --> mistraven has joined #instantbird
20:48:09 <flo> so from the IRC log, it appears I need to rephrase "We assume our users are always right." ?
20:51:05 <Mook_as> sounds like it
21:03:58 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Mook_as2): the devs are first respons to most everthing we take patches
21:05:06 <DGMurdockIII> Mic, test
21:07:33 <DGMurdockIII> when i did use pidgin file transfer did not work mostly some time when i would send a file to them it would look like it i sent it but the other person never even got a reqest for the transfer
21:08:45 <DGMurdockIII> so if you guys doo add transfer we shold test it out with each other
21:09:34 <DGMurdockIII> anyone now if google plus avable in the usa
21:11:29 <Mook_as> perhaps it's better phrased as "the users are not always wrong" or "the developers are not always right"? that still sucks, of course...
21:12:57 <DGMurdockIII> the reason why i bring up google plus is becse i use google talk on instantbird and the icon i use on instantbird replaced the profile icon on google plus and my google profle
21:14:09 <Mic1> DGMurdockIII: so they set the icon that is used for Google Talk for their other services?
21:14:27 <DGMurdockIII> yeah looks like it
21:14:36 <DGMurdockIII> do you have google plus
21:14:48 <DGMurdockIII> let me take a screenshot
21:15:02 <Mic1> DGMurdockIII: wait
21:15:15 <Mic1> Is there anything special to see? 
21:16:11 <flo> Mic1, nothing to see, he's just wanting to show you he's got invited to google plus ;)
21:17:52 <DGMurdockIII> no
21:18:25 <DGMurdockIII> i can see the bug on the moble app of google+
21:18:48 <DGMurdockIII> but not the website
21:19:14 <DGMurdockIII> but if you two want a invite to google plus i have one
21:21:52 <flo> Does it solve the issue if I replace: "We assume our users are always right. Even when we disagree. Even if what they assert is factually inexact."
21:21:53 <flo> by "We assume that when someone takes the trouble to come and talk to us to complain about something, there's a valid concern. Even when it's well hidden behind factually inexact assertions that we can't agree with."
21:22:46 <flo> DGMurdockIII: I already have google + and I have 2 invites. But thanks :)
21:23:04 <-- harlock has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.0)
21:23:24 <Mook_as> sounds good :)
21:23:44 <flo> Mook_as: thanks :)
21:23:57 <flo> Mic1: does it sound good to you too?
21:24:34 * Mic1 needs to look up "assertion" first ;)
21:25:01 <Mook_as> "that thing that kills your app if it's wrong"
21:25:11 <Mook_as> ... wait, that's the code monkey definition :p
21:25:29 <Mic1> Yes, sounds good
21:25:38 <-- aleth has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.0)
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21:28:07 <flo> the next sentence doesn't fit well with it thoguh :-/
21:28:14 <flo> "There's a reason why they are confused, and if a confusion is common, we should find its cause and fix it."
21:28:56 <DGMurdockIII> let me look on the google+ app on my android phone and see what it using the instandbird icon for exzatly
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21:29:09 <Mook_as> s/Even when.*/Even when they cannot express themselves clearly/ ?
21:29:40 <DGMurdockIII> it useing it as the profile picture
21:29:52 <flo> deOmega: hey, have you found the link to http://typewith.me/a5Jiw8vdF4 in the log and already read it? :)
21:30:43 <deOmega> Hi.. yeah, i read it and actually came back to toss in my 2 cents  fwiw:)
21:31:25 <deOmega> I like the question you raised, about offending  pidgin developers...
21:31:57 <deOmega> I find it to be a very informative and as mook said.. diplomatic
21:32:50 <DGMurdockIII> i have a problem with express myself and some time it my falt some time not as i have Asperger
21:32:52 <deOmega> BUt  there are some points where it seems as a direct challenge to pidgin.. so in a sense straying away from the peace-pipe you started the article smoking
21:34:13 <deOmega> It is evident that the writer is not happy with pidgin.    And to some level this could start turf wars (I dunno)
21:34:44 <Mook_as> I think the turf wars started when instantbird started existing ;)
21:34:51 <flo> is it also evident that if the writer spent 4 years of his life creating an alternative there's probably some reasons?
21:35:06 <deOmega> Exactly
21:36:04 <deOmega> on one hand.. you are demonstrating why IB is necessary.
21:36:19 <DGMurdockIII> what artical are you talking about and your not talking about that pidgin fork
21:37:19 <flo> deOmega: I tried to make the conclusion as peaceful as the first few paragraphs :-D
21:37:32 <Mic1> What about leaving away some direct references to Pidgin?
21:37:38 <Mic1> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/852
21:37:38 <deOmega> but maybe i could suggest.. softening this line..  even though it may be factual:  "Pidgin developers make Pidgin the best for themselves and share it with you, for free."
21:37:55 <flo> it's actually free ;)
21:38:31 <deOmega> ah, Mic is addressing exactly that
21:38:52 <flo> Mic: good idea :)
21:39:09 <-- Mic has left #instantbird ()
21:39:25 <flo> I'm also annoyed by the occurences of "Pidgin developers" in the text, as they are definitely not all the same :)
21:39:41 <deOmega> mic, you cannot leave now!   :(
21:39:57 <Mic1> I haven't..
21:39:58 <deOmega> oh wait.  mic 1 and mic lol
21:40:11 <Mic1> I've been talking from the other instance all the time
21:40:26 <Mic1> Someone was annoyed by the blobs in my background session and killed it :D
21:40:28 <deOmega> I really like what mic wrote
21:40:36 <Mic1> *blobs = sounds here ;)
21:42:44 <Mic1> (exactly the problem of bug 842)
21:42:47 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=842 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Disable sounds when screen is locked or an other user active
21:43:00 <deOmega> Again man, i have to say... it is remarkable that English is a secondary language for you.
21:43:42 <DGMurdockIII> iv found out trying to improve pidgin by sending the devs patches is a wast of time not by actally doing it but from the stories i hear
21:45:03 <-- Mic1 has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.0)
21:45:45 <flo> DGMurdockIII: this is not something I can write on our blog ;)
21:46:16 <deOmega> wait
21:46:17 <DGMurdockIII> yeah
21:46:33 <deOmega> DGMurdockIII: how is it i am  typing as you?
21:46:47 <DGMurdockIII> im not sure
21:47:52 <deOmega> lol.. do NOT put me behind the dev wheel!
21:51:07 <flo> I'm surprised that nobody dislike the last sentence
21:52:48 <deOmega> smiley face after aologize? :)
21:53:23 <flo> nah, that could be taken as "we appologize but we are happy"
21:54:28 <deOmega> "Pidgin's currently in development code is tested only by developer"  is that the case or is that encouraged?
21:54:37 <deOmega> flo: true
21:55:16 <flo> deOmega: they yell at people taking their code to test it
21:55:41 <flo> (if these people complain that it doesn't work without coming with the fix)
21:59:40 <deOmega> i am thinking about the conclusion.
22:00:28 <flo> why the love->like change?
22:01:18 <deOmega> hmm.. passion?  generally  'like' is assigned to objects.  but if you are  trying to stress 'like' then  that is fine.
22:02:10 <deOmega> in that last line, ia m thinking along these lines:
22:02:27 <flo> if they *love* us then the choice is *obvious*
22:02:36 <deOmega> so,  innovation, personalization, freedom. 
22:02:54 <deOmega> flo: I absolutely agree
22:03:07 <deOmega> so...
22:04:11 <deOmega> the conclusion should include the fact that they are able to  kick it,  wrap it, roll it,  chop it to their liking.. if they have the ability to.. and if not, they could come to you.
22:04:36 <deOmega> where they would meet open arms LOL
22:04:50 <deOmega> And a bed :)
22:05:35 --> clokep has joined #instantbird
22:05:35 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 
22:06:23 <deOmega> that is good
22:06:55 <flo> the sentence I added?
22:07:00 <deOmega> I am definitely fine with that.  the simplest thing will offend someone  somewhere somehow.  This is nice.
22:07:02 <clokep> Hello.
22:07:03 <flo> or the open arms + the bed?
22:07:05 <deOmega> Yup
22:07:09 <deOmega> hahaha
22:07:28 <deOmega> hey clokep.   welcome.. the bed is in the next room
22:07:38 <clokep> (o_O)
22:07:50 <clokep> Uhhh... deOmega ...I'm going ot have to decline.
22:08:06 <clokep> When we say "We love you." We don't mean it quite that literally.
22:08:31 * deOmega changes name to deomegaline
22:08:41 <flo> love is probably the most needed ingredient to produce good software though ;)
22:09:05 <deOmega> How about we welcome you?
22:09:16 <deOmega> or.. we care!
22:09:29 <deOmega> Actually, to be honest
22:09:39 <deOmega> I think you shoudl use we care.  because frankly
22:09:51 <deOmega> that is the one thing i have often felt about the crew
22:09:57 <deOmega> caring
22:10:08 <deOmega> even if disgruntled :)
22:10:18 <flo> doesn't caring derives from love?
22:10:56 <deOmega> Oh, so you moved to teh upper level? 
22:11:26 <deOmega> love just seems so strong and .. well,  not soo... genuine.
22:12:39 <flo> if we replace "love" by "care" in that last sentence, do you think anybody will remember the conclusion?
22:13:16 <deOmega> ha.. and that is a godo point.  This is certainly more memorable
22:13:47 <clokep> I think it's Ok to say "love" I just find it a non-sequitur.
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22:15:00 <deOmega> so not ok to use it there?  
22:15:24 <flo> or ok because it creates a surprise which will cause a lasting effect (= memorable)
22:15:25 <clokep> I think the sentence just doesn't make sense.
22:15:47 <clokep> I like that better. ;)
22:16:33 <deOmega> ah, that flows better i would agree... but
22:16:51 <deOmega> I am gonan be looking at the logs to see punchlines from visitors
22:17:22 <flo> so you just made it the same sentence?
22:17:30 <clokep> Yes.
22:17:33 <clokep> It just didn't seem to flow.
22:17:41 <clokep> And I added a bang!
22:17:43 <clokep> :)
22:17:51 <flo> I wondered if the punctuation needed to be ":"
22:17:56 <deOmega> There is a bed somewhere!
22:18:26 <Mook_as> make it a ‽
22:18:29 <flo> deOmega: you probably underestimate the amount of love in that software ;)
22:18:50 <deOmega> LOL.   
22:19:14 <-- mistraven has left #instantbird ()
22:19:35 <clokep> I need to cook. Ping me if you need me.
22:19:43 <deOmega> Oh by the way.. for what it is worth..  we should offer Google plus invites to everyone in the room.
22:19:50 <deOmega> of course if they are interested
22:19:58 <flo> if you think it's ready to post, I guess I just need to add some <p> tags and post it
22:19:58 <deOmega> as a matter of fact
22:20:02 * clokep is.
22:20:10 <flo> and then go look at these new libpurple crashes with valgrind :-S
22:20:28 <flo> clokep: you need a google + invite?
22:20:39 <deOmega> I have a bunch if anyone interested.  I saw someone  mention earlier
22:21:14 <deOmega> offer to the email list :)
22:21:21 <deOmega> see how many followers you pick up :)
22:21:59 <-- skeledrew has quit (Ping timeout)
22:22:16 <deOmega> flo: You gonna get clokep?
22:22:16 <flo> I haven't understood yet why people are so excited by google plus though
22:22:18 <Mook_as> hmm. should I bother with one?
22:22:40 <clokep> flo: Yes. :) And I think it's ready to post too.
22:22:51 <flo> Mook_as: if you want to be sure to test it before they close it (like wave :-D), you need one :-D
22:23:01 <clokep> And we should fix crashes! And do other stuff too!
22:23:08 <Mook_as> hah. I think I'll live without one
22:23:20 <Mook_as> I assume it's linked to the google account anyway, so there's no point in trying to get "good" names
22:24:01 <flo> clokep: I think I sent you one. The UI is confusing though :-S
22:24:12 <flo> Mook_as: yes, it's the google account
22:24:34 <Mook_as> okay, don't bother than. it's kinda fun not having twitter/facebook/google+ ;)
22:24:48 <deOmega> ok, if you know of anyone of the IB users that desire and you are out.  just  send me an  email.  jahkae@gmail.com.
22:25:09 <flo> I suspect there's enough invites around for everybody interested having one already, but not enough of them to let the invite buzz decline
22:26:12 <deOmega> Mook_as: I use Facebook really as just a contact service.. but  I believe we will get more use out of google plus (family-wise)
22:26:30 <deOmega> i almost never post anything on twitter or facebook.
22:27:12 <deOmega> the big thing I believe is circles.
22:27:39 <flo> it seems a more user friendly facebook
22:28:09 <deOmega> right.. and better regarding who sees what
22:28:29 <clokep> People need to stop making social networks.
22:28:33 <clokep> So people stop asking us to implement them.
22:30:53 <clokep> And seriously we need a typewith.me protocol plug-in. ;)
22:31:03 <flo> yeah :)
22:31:09 <flo> that's a fun add-on to write
22:32:02 <Mook_as> pfft, just use a <browser/> ;)
22:32:48 <clokep> What do you think we use for our conversations? ;)
22:32:59 <clokep> It's really just pulling the participants list into the UI haha.
22:33:02 <clokep> But it would still be fun. :)
22:33:07 <Mook_as> oh, I meant skip the normal codepath completely
22:33:11 <clokep> (And I guess capturing all links of that nature.)
22:33:13 <clokep> Hahah.
22:33:24 <flo> ok, I think this is ready
22:37:30 <deOmega> ok, have a great evening all.
22:37:34 <deOmega> err.. weekend.
22:38:12 <-- deOmega has left #instantbird ()
22:45:11 * clokep is re-testing his twitter patch.
22:45:18 <flo> it's posted! :)
22:45:34 <-- igorko has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.0)
22:48:10 <instantbot> Just appeared in Blog@instantbird.org - http://blog.instantbird.org/ :
22:48:11 <instantbot> http://blog.instantbird.org/n50-why-should-i-switch-from-pidgin.html - "Why should I switch from Pidgin?"
22:52:32 --> igorko has joined #instantbird
22:52:34 <-- igorko has quit (Quit: igorko)
22:52:50 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 736 to bug 850.
22:52:52 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 736 on bug 850.
22:52:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Twitter should start from last known tweet
22:54:26 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird 1.1a1pre)
22:54:32 --> clokep has joined #instantbird
22:54:32 * ChanServ sets mode +h clokep 
22:59:12 * clokep waits for the comments to come in.
22:59:33 <clokep> So when we have better IRC support we're gonna do a "Why should I switch from ChatZilla?", yes? :)
22:59:57 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 736 on bug 850.
22:59:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=850 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Twitter should start from last known tweet
23:00:33 <flo> clokep: I thought we could do a "please help us free you from ChatZilla" post soon to know what people like in it ;)
23:00:57 <clokep> :)
23:01:02 <clokep> That's a nicer way to put it.
23:01:42 <flo> can't do that until we merge js-irc though
23:01:52 <clokep> Yup.
23:02:00 <clokep> I'd like you to review it sometime in the next couple of weeks.
23:02:09 <clokep> Altohugh it's broken right now. :(
23:02:41 --> mmkmou has joined #instantbird
23:03:34 <Mook_as> hmm. I use IRC fundamentally differently compared to IM.
23:03:51 <flo> I'll most likely be away from the Internet from the 23rd to the 31st of July (Meeting other AMI lovers, and then going to the 2CV world meeting with my AMI)
23:06:49 <flo> Mook_as: that's ok :). Twitter is different from IM already. We just need to think more/better about the integration and interactions :)
23:07:00 <Mook_as> :D
23:07:32 <flo> and voice and video integration would be awfully different UI wise ;)
23:07:41 <clokep> Mook_as: I'd assume that for die hard IRC-ers Instantbird will never work without HUGE extensions to it.
23:07:43 <clokep> Which is OK.
23:08:13 <clokep> But it doesn't need to be as dramatically different from IM for most people.
23:08:15 <clokep> IMO.
23:08:35 <Mook_as> maybe I'm too set in my ways to imagine what that'd be like
23:09:21 <clokep> The biggest difference I see is that people want to have MANY MANY rooms open.
23:09:25 <clokep> Which our UI just doesn't account for.
23:09:36 <flo> yet
23:10:12 <clokep> :)
23:12:46 <clokep> Ah I fixed it. :) JS-IRC works again!
23:13:17 <clokep> Btw I think to get it to a "usable" state, we ight need to just throw it onto nightly users at some point and see what servers break and such. :-X
23:14:37 <flo> does that mean it's ready for review?
23:14:45 <clokep> Uhhh it's a mess. :)
23:14:58 <clokep> I'd like you to review the major changes I made to it, from a very high level view.
23:15:16 <clokep> Like that I'm using components to handle commands now.
23:16:20 * clokep is confused that you r+ed that and then gave nits.
23:17:04 <flo> r+ with comments usually means (on BMO) I trust you to address that without me having to review it again later
23:17:34 <clokep> Oh, OK! :)
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23:22:20 <flo> how do I know if I can push the libpurple update?
23:23:13 <clokep> Does it work OK for you?
23:24:01 <flo> I can't connect to MSN with it in my Windows VM (but the VM has so many other issues that it doesn't mean much), on my Mac debug build disconnecting an MSN account crashes, and on Linux it seems to work OK for now.
23:24:11 <clokep> Hmmmm. :-/
23:24:39 <clokep> The difference between 1.0 and the nightlies isn't much right now that if someone REALLY needs to connect on those they can go back to 1.0 and not lose any features.
23:25:00 <flo> we haven't sent updates from 0.3pre to 1.1a1pre yet ;)
23:25:37 <clokep> So then, sure. Push it.
23:25:41 <clokep> All you'll do is crash me. :P
23:32:56 <flo> it's too bad I can't make it crash on Linux where valgrind is not so slow
23:33:26 <clokep> :-/
23:33:49 <clokep> If you push it and people crash we'll get stack traces?
23:34:26 <flo> I already have stacks
23:34:51 <flo> they are useless when the cause of the crash is memory corruption
23:36:45 <clokep> Ohhh. I see.
23:37:54 <flo> memory corruption is often considered a security bug on the mozilla side. On the libpurple (and especially MSN) side, it seems to be pretty common :(
23:38:31 <clokep> Sounds like you wrote your blog post too early. :P
23:38:48 <flo> why?
23:39:11 <clokep> You just had another paragraph to add to the stability part there. ;)
23:39:34 <flo> nah, that's security sensitive info :-P
23:39:39 <flo> (+ it's not new at all :()
23:44:59 <clokep> :-/
23:45:07 <clokep> libpurple scares me in a lot of ways. :(