#instantbird log on 07 04 2011

All times are UTC.

00:02:02 <instantbot> New purplexpcom - General bug 893 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
00:02:03 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org added attachment 731 to bug 893.
00:02:04 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org requested review from the wind for attachment 731 on bug 893.
00:02:06 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=893 enh, --, ---, florian, ASSI, Support for twitter entities
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00:09:47 <flo> Good night :)
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06:47:55 <ptit_boogy> Hello all
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06:50:15 * ChanServ sets mode +h Mic 
06:50:21 <Mic> Hi
06:50:27 <Mic> Hello, ptit_boogy
06:52:35 <ptit_boogy> hello Mic
07:04:00 <Mic> If you've got any questions, ideas, suggestions or complaints then don't hesitate to tell us :)
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07:17:30 <werwolf> mic I did not get the article you gave me
07:17:44 <werwolf> how is it related to jumping?
07:20:30 <Mic> If this is not the jumping that you see, please file a bug in our bugtracker at bugzilla.instantbird.org
07:21:14 <Mic> State precisely what the jumping is, when it occurs and how we'll be able to reproduce it.
07:21:44 <Mic> The report doesn't need to be verbose, include only the things necessary to describe and reproduce
07:21:54 <Mic> Thanks in advance (I'll be away for a while now)
07:22:01 <werwolf> ok
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07:47:53 <alfredkayser> Testing my Nautipolis theme in Instantbird
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08:11:51 <Mic> alfredkayser: hi! Nice to see that you're developing a theme for Instantbird
08:14:01 <Mic> Using two different profiles (see MDC/MDN for details on profiles / the profile manager) you can develop your theme on one of them  while the other serves you to connect to all your networks including IRC
08:14:43 <Mic> This way you won't dance in and out of this channel either ;)
08:14:55 <Mic> instantbot: profiles
08:14:56 <instantbot> Mic: A profile stores your settings, extensions, application data, bookmarks, email, and so on. More information at http://support.mozilla.com/kb/Profiles (Firefox), http://support.mozillamessaging.com/kb/... (rest /msged)
08:15:43 <Mic> instantbot: tell alfredkayser about profiles
08:15:44 <instantbot> Mic: told alfredkayser
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10:43:34 <Mic> flo: the on-commit and nightly builds failed btw
10:43:54 <flo> Mic: yeah, we have a nicely red waterfall ;)
10:43:59 <flo> (hello! :))
10:44:28 <Mic> Are we on Mozilla5 now or was that only a intermediate step in upgrading?
10:44:47 <flo> we are failing to build on Mozilla5, yes :)
10:45:04 <flo> and it's an intermediary step in upgrading to moz6 or 7 (not decided yet)
10:46:04 <Mic> :)
10:46:15 <Mic> bbl
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10:50:50 <Rattus> I set a vcard avatar on an xmpp bot, but the icon is not showing up in instantbird, some cache I need to flush or something? it does show up on adium if I did a 'get info' on the contact
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11:03:12 <flo> Rattus: does it appear in the contact tooltip on Adium?
11:04:15 <Rattus> yes
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11:22:34 <flo> did it appear for adium in the tooltip only after you manually clicked "get info"?
11:22:44 <flo> if so there may be a cache issue, yes
11:23:27 <Rattus> yes
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11:31:52 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/d65af6ba10d6 - Florian Quèze - Fix packaging (port changes from bug 649428).
11:31:53 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/cdc3cf14cd71 - Florian Quèze - Force building of shared libs for purplexpcom and mintrayr (fix regression from 52b6afd667ee).
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12:51:51 <Mic> pah, anything other than restartless add-ons should be banned
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13:26:28 * flo is puzzled by someone saying we will keep using Pidgin because it's more customizable :-S.
13:26:37 <flo> *he will
13:26:40 <flo> bah...
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13:44:22 <Mic> Do you know what he meant by "more customizable"?
13:45:19 <Mic> Maybe "there are more extensions for Pidgin at the moment"?
13:51:31 <flo> I asked
13:51:45 <flo> he replied: "Smiley sets, sound sets, chat logs, sorting of contact groups, status messages, per-buddy options, etc. Lots of ways out of the box."
13:51:53 <flo> and "Some things I can't do without that Pidgin has: manual conversation saving (as HTML or text), temporarily remembering tabs I close."
13:53:26 <Mic> I think I added "Save as HTML" to my context menu once but there was a problem of some sort
13:53:56 <Mic> I think the download manager window popped up :)
13:54:18 <flo> that's not terribly anoying (if it isn't broken of course)
14:01:35 <Mic> They even have a whiteboard plugin
14:04:10 <flo> does it work?
14:04:42 <Mic> I'm certainly not getting this Gtk stuff on my computer just to try it ;)
14:07:00 <flo> ahah
14:07:20 <flo> he adds "Instantbird doesn't resample my buddy icon properly. It comes out rather badly-aliased when I look at it from my alt accounts."
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15:28:03 <igorko> hi
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16:02:11 <igorko> i have uploaded addon to site but i can't find it(pushing edit addon gave me "addon not found" error)
16:02:30 <igorko> reuploading doesn't work(addon with such ID already exists)
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16:52:34 <igorko> Oops! There seems to be a problem with this file...
16:52:34 <igorko> This add-on ID (smilesBar@conv) already exists in the database. If this is your add-on, you can upload a new version.
16:52:34 <igorko> Please correct this problem and upload your file again.
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17:01:58 <igorko> flo ?
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17:20:49 <alfredkayser> Who wants to review my themes LittleChat and Nautipolis?
17:21:21 <alfredkayser> Both are hosted on AIO, and awaiting public nomination
17:28:26 <flo> alfredkayser: oh, so you've finally been able to create your account successfully? :)
17:44:13 <DGMurdockIII> 2(alfredkayser2): do you have a link to them
17:49:01 <DGMurdockIII> i dont see them on addon site
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17:51:37 <alfredkayser> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/279
17:51:42 <alfredkayser> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/280
17:52:03 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): look at this guys instandbird addons http://code.douglasthrift.net/trac/instantbird
17:54:41 <igorko> Mic ping
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17:55:59 <Mic> igorko: what's up? Would be nice if you can ping me with an actual question so I can think of an answer already.. ;)
17:56:14 <igorko> :)
17:56:46 <igorko> it's about addos site. I can't upload add-on. Tried fiew times with sifferent ID's
17:56:55 <igorko> addons*
17:58:11 <igorko> ID;s are smilesBar@for.conv and smilesBar@4.conv
17:58:32 <Mic> hmm, was there any error message or response to your upload attempts?
17:59:18 <igorko> Oops! There seems to be a problem with this file...
17:59:18 <igorko> This add-on ID (smilesBar@conv) already exists in the database. If this is your add-on, you can upload a new version.
17:59:18 <igorko> Please correct this problem and upload your file again.
17:59:53 <igorko> but initial problem was that after uploading all as ok, but Edit add-on button as broken
18:00:05 <igorko> was broken*
18:02:12 <flo> uh, the shortcut to open about:config in a debug build is broken :-S
18:02:39 <Mic> hmm, you better ask flo or Even with problems on AIO, there's not really anything I can do
18:02:41 <flo> igorko: can you describe "broken"?
18:03:25 <igorko> it linked me to some page with Access Denied or something like this(i don't remember)
18:03:47 <igorko> and i don't see that add-on on my dev page
18:05:13 <igorko> after that i have uploaded few another addons but they were ok
18:05:46 <igorko> anyway smilesBar with changed ID and version didn't work
18:07:00 <igorko> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/282
18:07:01 <igorko> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/283
18:07:01 <igorko> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/284
18:07:27 <igorko> hm.. Or i was addon not found error?
18:07:34 <igorko> it was*
18:07:56 <igorko> flo: https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/281 here
18:08:39 <igorko> 281: Add-on not found!
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18:11:17 <flo> well, I don't know what happened with that add-on
18:12:04 <igorko> can you delete both from DB? And files too(if they are there)
18:12:29 <flo> igorko: I see the add-on with the admin page, but in files and versions it's empty :-S
18:12:37 <flo> both? What's the id of the second one?
18:12:53 <igorko> smilesBar@for.conv and smilesBar@4.conv
18:13:09 <igorko> i have trie twice :)
18:13:13 <igorko> tried
18:13:54 <flo> 281 has smilesBar@conv as the IRC
18:15:13 <igorko> IRC?
18:15:44 <flo> *id
18:15:46 <flo> sorry
18:15:58 <igorko> hm- yes it was smilesBar@conv  initially
18:16:03 <igorko> iirc
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18:37:15 <igorko> https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/addon/287 check this out :)
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19:16:25 <Mic> Is there a nice way to debug javascript in message styles?
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20:11:36 <ecaron> Is there any DM capabilities in Instantbird? (trying to answer a tweeter, I didn't know myself:-( )
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20:14:28 <flo> ecaron: unfortunately it's not implemented yet :(
20:15:22 <ecaron> flo: Good things come to those who wait. There's also a fine line between being a great multi-protocol chat client and being a client-specific program.
20:16:01 <ecaron> I couldn't find a mention of it in bugzilla, should I tell the user to create a ticket or stfu?
20:16:38 <ecaron> (Maybe ticket 851, but he was more interested in seeing dms)
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20:22:35 <flo> certainly not stfu :). We love when people give feedback. It's interesting to know what's missing (and be reminded sometimes), to get an idea of what should be worked on.
20:23:29 <flo> by the way, it's the exact same thing but with bugzilla/in the mozilla community people tend to say "file a bug" are then than "open/create a ticket". :)
20:26:45 <ecaron> Sorry, I'll use better lingo. I should've added a :) after stfu, how horrible if I was serious!
20:29:46 <flo> no reason to be sorry. It's not obvious, and is exactly the reason why I/we asked that you spend some time here :)
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20:32:32 <flo> "There's also a fine line between being a great multi-protocol chat client and being a client-specific program." This is a nice remark by the way :).
20:32:33 <ecaron> flo: How's the new server holding up? Still not even breaking a sweat?
20:32:39 <flo> but for twitter I think we can really do better
20:33:17 <flo> "load average: 0.02, 0.04, 0.05" :)
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20:34:17 <flo> and more generally, I think we could do better on each of the protocols if we had (at least) one person in here really concerned about the qualify of each protocol support.
20:35:37 <flo> The plans may still change, but I would like to focus the next release on being really good on Twitter and IRC.
20:35:49 <ecaron> That's got to be a delicate situation, because you'll have overlapping "I want to be chief" situations for the popular protocols and then rare appearances from the less popular/fringe protocols.
20:36:07 <flo> Twitter because it seems it was a mistake to add a twitter support that is just good enough for someone using IM + twitter sometimes, people tend to try just one protocol (typically twitter) and make their mind on the overall qualify of the application based on that.
20:36:42 <flo> and IRC, because people in the mozilla community use that, and I would like more of them to use Instantbird everyday (we need more Mozilla people to support our effort).
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20:38:14 <ecaron> I really like the Twitter suggestions in #682
20:38:42 <ecaron> Do you see Twitter support as being essential to Instantbird's success?
20:38:47 <flo> if you type bug <number> (bug 682), instantbot shows everybody what you are talking about
20:38:50 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=682 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Reply to and retweet actions on twitter
20:39:48 <ecaron> (Jotting all these down) Is there a page somewhere about everything instantbot does?
20:40:33 <flo> I don't know/don't think so
20:40:56 <ecaron> Alright, no problem, I'll just keep discovering them as needed.
20:41:20 <flo> but I think we should create a page on the wiki explaining what people should know and what they may want to know when coming to this room, and put the URL in the topic, and remove all the other urls we currently have
20:41:38 <flo> because our topic is currently overly long and poorly readable :)
20:42:30 <ecaron> Does the addons interface include Urchin?
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20:43:51 <flo1> we don't do much analysis of our apache logs
20:44:14 <ecaron> I know, but I was thinking/wondering about the javascript logging that's baked in.
20:44:37 <flo1> there's some logging code in there?
20:45:29 <ecaron> A lot of it, actually. Most events are wrapped in utm triggers (looks like the stuff that predated Google Analytics)
20:46:31 <flo1> ecaron: "Do you see Twitter support as being essential to Instantbird's success?" I/we think the best marketing we can have is by word of mouth, and a large proportion of the early adopters of new software is likely using twitter + these people are those toward which other people turn to for advice
20:46:56 <flo1> so yes, I think twitter is important. Not for most of our users, but for those who are the most likely to help spread it
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20:47:21 <flo1> + it seems a nice way to collect support requests / opinions
20:48:12 <ecaron> makes a lot of sense, I was just thinking about what a gigantic beast that would become and how tough it must be to know where the features should stop (like where Instantbird stops and TweetDeck starts)
20:48:56 <flo1> I would say Instantbird probably stops if twitter is your full time job.
20:49:35 <flo1> the users I would like to get are those who use IM + go to the twitter.com website occasionally, but don't use twitter enough to keep a twitter-only client always running
20:50:49 <flo1> but if we end up being better than TweetDeck for a proportion of its current users, I wouldn't feel bad about it.
20:50:55 <ecaron> and supporting lists in the same way that rooms are supported in irc?
20:51:44 <flo1> I'm not really sure of how the lists work, but if that makes sense, why not? :)
20:52:53 <flo1> aleth: you know about the auto-join feature of chat rooms, right? :)
20:55:50 <flo1> "how tough it must be to know where the features should stop (like where Instantbird stops and TweetDeck starts)" that seems more to me like "what should we include by default" and "what should be left for add-on authors to play with."
20:56:46 <flo1> I would say the limit for that is usually that a feature shouldn't get in the way and confuse people who don't need that feature and have even not the slightest idea of what it could be.
20:58:17 <ecaron> Right, but what about addressing things like bug 851 - which would make sense to 99% of IRC users bot 2% of Twitter-but-not-IRC users?
20:58:20 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=851 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Twitter commands
20:58:56 <ecaron> That would make sense as an addons, but not a core feature - right?
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21:00:13 <flo1> most of our protocol plugins have similar commands already
21:00:58 <flo1> it's a very efficient UI (if we have completion enabled), it's way faster than any UI involving moving the mouse
21:01:15 <flo1> geeks like these kind of details
21:01:23 <flo1> it doesn't hurt or get in the way.
21:01:33 <flo1> so I would say it's acceptable in the core
21:01:47 <flo1> but I wouldn't hold a release for it, and probably not spend my time on it either
21:01:53 <ecaron> Absolutely, but it causes a big problem when it violates the current behavior of the current core.
21:02:17 <flo1> what is it violating?
21:03:11 <ecaron> Can a put up a test Tweet to @instantbird as a proof of concept? Then you can delete it?
21:03:15 <flo1> (+ if all these features are already supported, adding these commands to call them is super easy and would be a nice first patch for a new contributor)
21:04:02 <flo1> I have another test account
21:04:39 <flo1> are you saying that it may be useful to send a tweet that starts with "/" ?
21:05:14 <ecaron> I'm thinking about causing confusion with starting tweets with "d " vs. /dm
21:05:46 <ecaron> Do you remember in the early days of Twitter when people used "dm" thinking it meant "d" and there were sites setup to search all the tweets that people thought were private dms but actually went public?
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21:07:09 <flo1> no
21:07:55 <flo1> Instantbird is my first twitter client. And I started using twitter (to see tweets from non-test accounts) around the 1.0 release.
21:08:54 <flo1> well, I've been tracking the "instantbird" keyword for a few months already, but most of the instantbird-related tweets were from blind people (did you know Instantbird is very accessible and blind people love it? :))
21:09:21 <ecaron> That's a heck of a marketing feature that definitely deserves some praise
21:10:26 <ecaron> The backstory on the dm-fiasco is at http://dmfail.com/, and I'm just thinking aloud about what features might tick off Twitter-users (and causing backlash from the very crowd you're supporting to gain market traction)
21:11:30 <flo1> yeah. There are probably some ways to use that for marketing, but I'm afraid it could backfire as "Instantbird is for disabled people, it's too basic for others."
21:12:01 <ecaron> Oh geez, why would you even say that in a chatlog that's public:-)
21:12:36 <flo1> because I'm poor at marketing?
21:12:56 <flo1> I'm interested in making great software, not "selling" it. I need help for that ;)
21:13:24 <ecaron> Just phrase it like "Strong leverage of the Mozilla-framework makes Instantbird a feature-rich chat client that integrates well with screen reader software such as Mac OS X Vision and Windows Narrator"
21:14:00 <ecaron> I have such a hard time imagining developers like you exist. I got 70% of my enjoyment out of selling the software, and 30% out of making it.
21:14:30 <ecaron> I love knowing what sectors are self-marketing for us, which ones aren't that should be, and what other areas aren't being served at all.
21:14:41 <flo1> I don't think Mozilla's accesibility stuff works on Mac OS X. It works well on Windows and Linux.
21:15:47 <ecaron> boo at Vision, then!
21:16:43 <ecaron> I think I'll start figuring out a list of what Twitter clients instantbird, in its present form, is a good replacement for.
21:17:38 <flo1> oh, you want a list of the competitors we should kill?
21:18:11 <flo1> ("kill" is a bit strong here :))
21:18:31 <ecaron> Just trying to get a grasp on the target userbase
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21:18:48 <flo1> our worst competitor is digsby
21:19:00 <flo1> because they aren't playing fair
21:19:07 <ecaron> Why's that?
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21:19:26 <flo1> http://www.digsby.com/
21:19:40 <flo1> see the "free download" big button?
21:19:47 <flo1> what do you see after clicking it?
21:20:17 <ecaron> 3 download icons for mac/windows/linux
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21:20:40 <ecaron> and 2 out of the 3 go to "alert me when its launched"
21:20:40 <flo1> what do you think then if you are a Windows users when you see us advertising that we are cross platform?
21:21:08 <ecaron> nothing
21:21:21 <flo1> probably that digsby does it too
21:21:27 <aleth> flo: yes ;) that's not the same functionality though :)
21:21:29 <flo1> and that it's not relevant to compare
21:22:03 <ecaron> You're giving users way too much credit and expecting that they put a lot of thought into which client they use.
21:22:40 <flo1> those Linux and Mac buttons have been there for years. I suspect there were added just because disgby was launched soon after the Instantbird 0.1 buzz.
21:23:00 <flo1> each time someone asks them about it on twitter, the reply is "it's coming soon, we are working on it."
21:23:43 <ecaron> I think a product-comparison chart would wonderfully suit the problem you're talking about then.
21:24:00 <ecaron> A big matrix comparing digsby/trillian/pidgin/instantbird
21:24:17 <flo1> ecaron: I've had several people to whom I tried to explain how Instantbird was better arguing with me that Digsby does support Linux and Mac too. I had to pull a laptop out of my bag and show them what happens when clicking the buttons for them to believe me ;)
21:24:27 <DGMurdockIII> sorry for caps
21:26:20 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo12): where you showing this to people in person or just telling them what happens
21:26:41 <flo1> ecaron: I'm a bit sad that people see us as competing with Pidgin/Adium. If we destroy their userbases and it discourages their teams, we will have to support the protocol libraries ourself. ;)
21:26:43 <ecaron> DGMurdockIII: That'll be a good place to start kicking around the different data points, but I'm thinking more about marketing and the wiki is not a place where we want the majority of the users to go.
21:27:20 <flo1> ecaron: would you like that to be marketing oriented, or areas-needing-improvements oriented? ;)
21:27:30 <ecaron> flo1: You do compete with both of those though. In the same way that Chrome and Safari are competing.
21:27:55 <flo1> I'm personnally much more interested in having the latter (= what should we focus on improving before we can start saying we are better than ...)
21:28:07 <ecaron> I'll phrase it this way - how don't you compete with them?
21:28:40 <flo1> ecaron: we send them our patches, and sometimes (rarely) get help to fix some issues from them.
21:28:54 <flo1> and we are relying on them continuing their work to exist
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21:29:21 <flo1> killing them would be shooting ourselves in the feet. Though taking them a couple millions of users off wouldn't hurt :-]
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21:30:00 <flo1> ecaron: we absolutely don't share any work with Miranda by the way :-D.
21:30:17 <DGMurdockIII> after i found out about instandbird and then how friendly you where in the chat room i gave up on pidgin some of the dev and people in the channel can be rude
21:30:25 <ecaron> Absolutely. I get that. But the people I know converting to Instantbird are converting from Pidgin. So I get that nobody wants to kill them (I would also say nobody at Firefox wants to kill Chrome), the project still needs to be able to admit that it competes with Pidgin (and probably be able to say where users should/shouldn't convert)
21:30:38 <aleth> imho it shouldn't be so much about killing, but rather about fixing the problems which their structure brings with it, and offering that as a differentiating feature. so e.g. pidgin might be more feature-rich in some details, but because people are so wedded to it being the way it is, it is unlikely to change certain aspects which can be really annoying to many
21:30:42 <ecaron> Miranda and Trillian = target #1
21:30:43 <flo1> DGMurdockIII: do you really thing we can market that?
21:31:02 <DGMurdockIII> yes
21:31:26 <aleth> i can also attest that trying to suggest anything to the pidgin folks is a dispiriting experience
21:31:38 <flo1> ecaron: I would feel better saying that we "provide an alternative" than saying we compete. Users will see the same thing, but not developers.
21:31:53 <ecaron> The same can be said for Firefox folks, PHP folks, Twitter folks, Facebook folks...
21:32:08 <aleth> flo: exactly. if you start comparing "feature tables" you are setting up the wrong kind of comparison
21:32:10 <flo1> (by the way, I'm sure some of the people here would be totally OK with killing Pidgin. Just... not me.)
21:32:39 <ecaron> flo: And being able to tell developers "this bug is more appropriate on the libpurple bugzilla" will be a good way to keep the wheel spinning - right?
21:32:58 <flo1> aleth: I totally plan to post on the blog something explaining how we are different from pidgin
21:33:41 <aleth> cool! all i meant is that the key differences are not "supports x feature of y protocol and pidgin doesnt"
21:33:44 * flo1 is now known as flo
21:34:13 <aleth> I would suggest the easiest way to get people to change is to offer much-demanded features that are stopping already interested people from making the switch
21:34:23 <DGMurdockIII> i thnk you shold have a page on the site that dose somthing like this http://www.forummatrix.org/compare/BurningBoard+Elite-Bulletin-Board+FluxBB
21:34:37 <aleth> e.g. the large number of people using meebo because it is cross-platform could be a relatively easy target
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21:34:53 <flo> ecaron: whether we can ask people to create ticket on Pidgin's track when they have an issue caused by a libpurple bug is a good question. That's not a place nearly as friendly as our bugzilla
21:35:18 <ecaron> DGMurdockIII: Absolutely. But less geeky. (Does it ever annoy anyone else in the bubble-theme you double-click somebody's name to copy it and get the time too? I should get off my butt and submit a fix for that)
21:35:19 <flo> if a ticket is not touched for 2 weeks (or is that a bit more?) it's automatically closed, without anybody needing to even comment in it I think.
21:36:04 <DGMurdockIII> on pidgin?
21:36:08 <flo> aleth: I think (but may be mistaken) that we need Sync to compete with meebo.
21:36:22 <aleth> flo: I agree
21:36:45 <ecaron> flo: I think your blog post will be a really good starting point for the pidgin stuff. I'd be really interested in knowing what their devs think about the project and the post should start that conversation being public.
21:36:52 <aleth> but it's potentially a game-changer (if that's what you're looking for)
21:37:00 <flo> ecaron: the fix isn't probably as easy as the bug seems trivial, but it's totally annoying. Until you install the "reply to nick" add-on and forget about it
21:37:10 <DGMurdockIII> but we need a way for to have a unafide profile
21:37:40 <DGMurdockIII> that you can login and it will lod all the accound for that profile
21:38:25 <DGMurdockIII> let say your mon, day and sister all share the same computer
21:38:34 <DGMurdockIII> dad*
21:38:46 <flo> ecaron: At first they made fun of us (though some of them congratulated us for the 0.1 launch). Then we have been mostly ignored. Know they sometimes request our(my?) opinion for some major changes they plan. And I saw that they want to give my right access to their code repository in the future.
21:39:10 <aleth> ecaron: don't you think pidgin is essentially mature and in an entirely different phase of its development, where stability is the main driver?
21:39:16 <flo> They are tired of having to push my patches (which are usually good and useful), and we are (I am?) part of their community now.
21:40:13 <ecaron> aleth: If they consider themselves at a point where stability is the main driver, then they've become the Internet Explorer of the chat software realm.
21:40:20 <flo> aleth: Pidgin isn't stable. At all. They don't test anything before releasing.
21:40:40 <aleth> flo: lol, i didn't mean stable in that sense 
21:41:07 <flo> ecaron: they give a lot of importance to API stability. It's not possible to change libpurple APIs except in major releases. Liburple 2.0.0 is quite old already (before Instantbird started).
21:41:13 <DGMurdockIII> that is one thing the i have found out the pidgin devs done like to use user summited patches very often
21:42:53 <aleth> i meant it's more or less already in the shape and design key people like it, and so innovations are only around the edges
21:42:55 <DGMurdockIII> alot of of the stuff in pidgin client could be rewrote from ground up file transfer on msn and yahoo
21:43:04 <flo> ecaron: I believe the IE of chat software is Windows Live Messenger. It's totally crappy, bloated with ads and other blinking craps. And it doesn't even achieve the simple thing of getting the message to the other user, failing frequently (and silently!). And when it does work, it's incredibly slow (an email sent through Gmail arrives faster than the first message of an MSN conversation)
21:43:12 <ecaron> Like I said, I'll be very interested in reading your blog about it, flo, but from a marketing perspective although we shouldn't target pidgin/adium we can't go out of our away to avoid them w/o hurting ourselves.
21:43:55 <DGMurdockIII> you shold look at tarkting trillion
21:44:01 <flo> ecaron: sure. We just shouldn't say things like "don't use Pidgin", etc... Just highlight what we are doing well.
21:44:19 <ecaron> flo: I'd never compare Pidgin to IE, I was pointing out poorly that for their sake I hope they aren't solely focusing on continued stability.
21:44:19 <flo> no need to highlight how they are messing their stuff up.
21:44:28 <ecaron> flo: Yay for agreement!
21:44:57 <aleth> flo: the best thing you did to convert people from pidgin imho is the time bubbles theme 
21:45:12 <flo> but we can highlight how disgby is blatently disrespecting its users, and how trillian (+ lots others) put blinking ads, ...
21:45:14 <aleth> from a purely "first-glance" perspective
21:45:31 <ecaron> I still think Windows-native character set recognition is good for people who type outside of their keyboard's character set.
21:45:45 <ecaron> (as a convert-away from Pidgin argument - boo gtk)
21:46:10 <DGMurdockIII> how many people have downloaded the 1.0 relese
21:46:20 <DGMurdockIII> do you know
21:46:20 <flo> GTK on Windows sucks. I suspect almost every body agree. But we can phrase it as "native look on feel on Windows 7" :-D
21:46:30 <aleth> ecaron: ah, you are on windows
21:46:35 <flo> DGMurdockIII: 23627
21:46:58 <flo> That's both a lot and not enough
21:47:01 <DGMurdockIII> pritty good so far
21:47:38 <aleth> do you have a number from the update pings yet for "people who tried it and kept it"?
21:47:39 <DGMurdockIII> now all you need to do is get coverage on lifehacker, slashdot
21:47:40 <ecaron> ok, i'm signing off, i'll have marketing docs prepared next time i'm on
21:47:43 <flo> ecaron: when comparing to Pidgin, the sad thing is "what about file transfer"?
21:47:54 <flo> DGMurdockIII: we have already been featured on Lifehacker
21:48:04 <DGMurdockIII> recently
21:48:15 <flo> DGMurdockIII: a submission about Instantbird on slashdot has been in the top 20 for most of yesterday, but didn't end up posted :(
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21:48:52 <flo> ecaron: Pidgin supports file transfer, but they almost never work. So the user things "Pidgin has file transfer" until he actually tries to use them.
21:49:16 <flo> DGMurdockIII: it was recent! http://lifehacker.com/5816618/instantbird-is-a-lightweight-cross+platform-instant-messaging-app-with-sharp-looks
21:51:02 <aleth> flo: that is so true about the file transfer
21:51:03 <DGMurdockIII> > All I want is a program that runs QQ, is that too much to ask! :(
21:51:10 <DGMurdockIII> hey all want QQ
21:51:27 <DGMurdockIII> on the comments lots of people want QQ
21:52:32 <DGMurdockIII> Installed it and activated AIM and Google Talk. Fired up task manager and it says it is om nomming 66 meg of memory. Digsby &/or pidgin runs at under 30 meg, and trillian runs around 15 meg. So maybe InstaBird is not so lightweight after all...
21:52:45 <flo> aleth: yeah, but we are confronted to a stupid problem: either not implement file transfer and have people complain because we don't, or spend time implementing it to have them work as "well" as in Pidgin.
21:53:15 <DGMurdockIII> pidgin file transfer sucked
21:53:23 <aleth> yes, it's really no-win because the other end might be running pidgin...
21:53:54 <flo> file transfer in IM sucks in general
21:54:10 <EionRobb> sucky file transfer is still better than no file transfer ;)
21:54:16 <aleth> jabber has a fairly decent implementation, doesn
21:54:20 <aleth>  't it?
21:54:51 <flo> EionRobb: that's the whole question. Should we expose it if we can't garantee that it will work most of the time?
21:54:57 <DGMurdockIII> if you implment a sloution you self you have to first think of the person on the other side as if they where using the official client and start from there
21:55:40 <DGMurdockIII> that the way i would do it
21:56:39 <flo> DGMurdockIII: there's no such thing as "the official client". They all have several different versions, behaving differently based on the network conditions, etc...
21:57:20 <EionRobb> flo: can't hurt to get it up and running so that when libpurple is up and running again it's not hard to 'flick the switch' and turn it on
21:58:13 <flo> EionRobb: it's a lot of boring work for no obvious benefit ;)
21:58:22 <aleth> I can see the justification for not including it as there will always be clients like Meebo that will not support it
21:58:38 <aleth> (they have their own system, via generated download links)
21:58:44 <flo> aleth: what about making it work even with meebo? :)
21:59:03 <flo> yeah, sending http links in the conversation seems better to me :)
21:59:09 <flo> easier to pass all the proxies in the way
21:59:13 <aleth> yes
21:59:49 <flo> aleth: do they host the files themselves? Or do they let the user put it on some server of a partner?
22:00:13 <aleth> I believe they host the files, however I have not used Meebo myself so am not certain
22:00:33 <aleth> They probably stick it on some amazon server ;)
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22:01:12 <flo> EionRobb: but yeah, at some point we should connect to the libpurple file tranfer API. I would like to have a fallback (like hosting the file on a server that provies http links) in place before feeling good about exposing it in the UI though :)
22:01:14 <aleth> There is a benefit to them in that the recipient is subjected to some Meebo on retreiving the file via a browser
22:02:47 <flo> each time we send someone to a webpage, we can put ads in there (though it should not be abused of course)
22:03:06 <DGMurdockIII> http://iserverd1.khstu.ru/oscar/
22:07:09 <aleth> flo: I suspect that's what Meebo does, seeing that it makes its money through ads
22:07:13 <DGMurdockIII> http://web.archive.org/web/20080308233204/http://dev.aol.com/aim/oscar/
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22:12:47 <aleth> dev question: How hard would it be to write a plugin that incorporates the buddy list window (including the menu) into a tab in the conv window?
22:13:34 <aleth> add-on i mean
22:15:01 <flo> aleth: trivial if bug 426 gets fixed first
22:15:08 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=426 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Make it easier to add tabs with arbitrary content to the "conversation window"
22:15:12 <flo> hacky (but probably possible anyway) otherwise
22:15:17 <aleth> aha
22:15:48 <aleth> I suspect the neater way of doing this would be the other way round, incorporating the conversation tabs in the buddy list window (because of the systray interaction)
22:15:55 <aleth> but that's probably harder
22:16:12 <flo> that way is trivial
22:16:22 <aleth> oh?
22:16:24 <aleth> What I am mulling over is a kind of "single-window mode"
22:16:27 <flo> and I used to have an add-on doing it
22:16:32 <aleth> this is great news
22:16:58 <flo> I made it more complicated by wanting to remove the tab bar and having a special group in the buddy list displaying conversations
22:17:18 <flo> there are at least two all-in-one add-ons.
22:17:24 <flo> mine is definitely outdated
22:17:49 <flo> Mook has another one which is outdated too, but not so old (probably only needs a maxVersion bump + some testing)
22:17:50 <aleth> I couldn't find any when I searched
22:17:57 <flo> they aren't on AIO
22:18:20 <flo> the one from Mook is at https://github.com/mook/unibrow/ (source code only)
22:18:41 <aleth> I will take a look, thanks
22:19:56 <aleth> Looks like Mook has done quite a bit of work on that, I wonder if he will update it
22:20:39 * aleth downloads the thing
22:21:24 <flo> if someone asks him and the only thing required is bumping the maxVersion, he will probably doo
22:23:41 <aleth> bumping the maxversion i have just done ;) now for some testing
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22:25:19 <aleth> Aha!
22:25:30 <aleth> Not bad
22:25:38 <aleth> but I can see some problems
22:26:53 <flo> that may be the reason why it's not on AIO :)
22:27:13 <aleth> could be ;)
22:27:28 <aleth> might take a look at the code tomorrow, see if it's hard to fix
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22:49:05 <douglaswth> DGMurdockIII: those are my addons ;P
22:49:30 <DGMurdockIII> they loog nice
22:49:46 <DGMurdockIII> i ryed one not on the addon site very nice
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