#instantbird log on 05 17 2011

All times are UTC.

00:48:53 <clokep> Build finished successfully. Had to have it not use all my cores.
01:31:31 <clokep> If anyone is trying to compile Instantbird on Windows and having issues...these are the steps I followed that worked for me: http://clokep.blogspot.com/2011/05/compilling-instantbird.html
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10:03:22 * Mic managed to let Aero Glass shine through the background of a browser element :)
10:06:26 <flo> a conversation?
10:06:40 <flo> hi, btw :)
10:06:50 <Mic> No, not yet.. 
10:07:30 <Mic> hi
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10:19:03 <clokep> Ah did I miss the mozilla folder in the path to the executable?
10:19:31 <clokep> Apparently. :( I'll edit that later.
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10:22:46 <flo> by the way, was the accessibility error really a link error?
10:23:14 <flo> I would expect it to fail at configure time
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10:26:26 <Mic> Hi flo, how's it going?
10:27:18 <flo> Mic: are you taking a screenshot? :-P
10:27:38 <Mic> Yes ;)
10:28:01 <flo> how broken is fake these days? :)
10:28:47 <Mic> I never used it .. where can I get it?
10:28:50 <clokep> flo: It was a link error with atlbase.h I think?
10:28:57 <Mic> https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:IbGlassBubble.png
10:29:22 <clokep> That's pretty fancy. :)
10:29:46 <clokep> And yes I think I saw that I could install the other SDK...But I figured it was easier to just disable accessibility. :)
10:30:09 <flo> it's too bad that Microsoft can't produce an SDK that just works...
10:30:44 <Mic> It's more transparent than I wanted it but after getting tired to track down all the tags standing between the browser and the window, I fixed it with a |* { background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.1) !important; }|
10:31:55 <flo> so the level of transparency depends on how many levels of intermediate tags you have?
10:32:05 <Mic> Sort of :D
10:32:20 <Mic> You can clearly see this on the participant count
10:32:33 <flo> that's what I thought
10:32:36 <Mic> Or the topic bar
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10:32:44 <flo> maybe the nicklist could get some glass love too? :-D
10:33:23 <clokep> flo: I think the Win 7 SDK is better than the previous couple, but parts of Mozilla need to be updated to it? I remember reading that at some point?
10:33:33 <clokep> What would you make glass of it? The background? Not sure how that'd look.
10:33:37 <flo> you would probably need to add a blur shadow on the items so that they keep being readable
10:34:06 <flo> clokep: not sure, but the white background just doesn't seem right there :)
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10:34:19 <Mic> I like it when there's a bit of white background on top of glass
10:34:57 <flo> I really dislike how that participants list looks on Windows/Linux anyway :-/
10:35:13 <clokep> What don't you like about it? What could be better?
10:36:13 <flo> almost everything :-D. (font, background, borders, spacing, ...)
10:36:24 <Mic> btw I did that a few days ago .. http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7285/ibglasscontactlist.png
10:36:44 <Mic> If the menubar gets a bit of a white background to make it more readable I'd find it quite ok
10:36:47 <clokep> That looks really good Mic.
10:37:16 <clokep> Yup, all I would say is that the menu bar needs a blur behind it like the Fx one.
10:37:19 <flo> Mic: very good start! :)
10:37:55 <clokep> Does the Mac participants list look much nicer? I can't find a screen shot. :-D
10:38:03 <flo> clokep: yes
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10:39:18 <Mic> ah, great .. I thought I'd had to make the conversation browser type="chrome" but it seems that isn't even necessary ;)
10:39:23 <flo> clokep: http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1189/image58nr.png
10:39:49 <clokep> Has a nice gradient to it I see. ;)
10:40:02 <clokep> Yeah, it looks a bit more fleshed out.
10:40:08 <flo> and smaller borders, and a better header
10:40:30 <flo> I don't like it either, but it doesn't hurt my eyes each time I see it at least :)
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10:42:41 <clokep> Haha.
10:42:49 <flo> I think I would like it much more if I could not see it except when I need it.
10:43:05 <flo> but I haven't figured out yet when/why I need it.
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10:44:01 <clokep> Right.
10:44:17 <clokep> Well you could like minimize it to a little floating panel at the top and a mouseover shows it.
10:44:23 <clokep> But not sure if that's useful.
10:44:41 <flo> I don't like moving the mouse :)
10:44:51 <flo> especially to small targets
10:45:25 <Mic> gtg, have a nice day
10:45:40 <Mic> I'll document the necessary steps for the glass browser somewhere later
10:46:15 <flo> but yeah, we could imagine the participant count being a push down button on the top of conversation UI. When hovered the participants list would appear. And if the button is cicked, it would stay visible until the button is clicked again.
10:46:36 <flo> maybe put a diff for the glass status selector too?
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10:48:23 <clokep> Yeah, I'm not sure when the participants list is "needed". :-/
10:48:50 <flo> I use it to know if <some specific nick> is here, when I've something to tell to someone
10:49:34 <flo> I sometimes scan it to see if I'm likely to have someone interested in what I could say (for example if I want to ask a question, request help for testing something, show a screenshot to ask feedback, ...)
10:49:55 <flo> I sometimes scan it to see if there are nicks that I've never seen before
10:52:21 <flo> clokep: oh, I didn't notice the title of your blog post before :-D. 'Compilling' -> only 1 'l' there ;).
10:53:04 <clokep> I fixed that already. :-D
10:53:22 <clokep> I noticed when I wend to edit it, but thank you. :)
10:53:50 <clokep> So you want it opened when you focus the window?
10:54:16 <clokep> And if new people sign on? Or something like that.
10:54:38 <flo> I don't know
10:54:59 <flo> but usually, as soon as there is a scrollbar, it becomes useless because it's no longer possible to visually scan it.
10:55:15 <flo> the nicklist on #developers or #pidgin is totally useless to me.
11:01:10 <clokep> Right.
11:01:19 <clokep> A filter bar would be useful if you're looking for a specific people.
11:01:23 <clokep> for a specific person
11:01:31 <clokep> But not to see new people or the other issues.
11:02:34 <flo> maybe it should be intelligent too, and use the space to show the people whose nickname I've already mentioned, or who have pinged me recently, or who are new
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11:07:04 <clokep> Could group it into like a "Recent" and "New" and an "other" group.
11:07:13 <clokep> Or a "more" button that fills in the other participants.
11:07:16 <clokep> I gotta go, bbl.
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12:38:27 <clokep_work> flo: What Mibbit does is have a "Chatting" section and an "Idlers" section, where "Chatting" includes users that have signed in or said somethign within xx time (a few minutes) and Idlers has everyone else.
12:38:48 <flo> interesting :)
12:39:30 <flo> is the difference made based on the activity in the channel or in general (= the idle time given by the whois command)?
12:40:33 <clokep_work> Activity in the channel.
12:41:44 <clokep_work> (I.e. you can be "Chatting" in one channel and in "Idlers" in another.)
12:44:31 <flo> are you sure "Chatting" includes those who have signed in recently? http://wiki.mibbit.com/index.php/Userlist doesn't seem to indicate that
12:48:16 <clokep_work> I'm pretty sure.
12:48:46 <flo> "recently left" could be interesting too :)
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12:49:50 <clokep_work> If you join #testib I can tell you if it lists people that just joined. :-D
12:50:09 <clokep_work> Although it lists me as "Chatting" when I just joined #maildev
12:50:21 <flo> on which network?
12:50:33 <clokep_work> moznet
12:51:36 <clokep_work> Hmm...OK it showed up under an idler.
12:51:46 <clokep_work> Must show me under "Chatting" just because it's me then?
12:51:54 <flo> that's possible
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12:53:36 <clokep_work> flo: http://imgur.com/0znSn is what I see in #maildev
12:54:27 <flo> ok :)
12:54:39 <flo> and Idlers was closed by default
12:56:29 <clokep_work> No, it's open for me always.
12:57:10 <clokep_work> The wiki is wrong that it shows them "CLosed" by default. At least it never has for me.
12:58:00 <Mic2> Ah, you can collapse these groups? I didn't know ..
12:58:23 <Mic2> Not very discoverable .. they should put one of these usual icons there
13:01:56 <clokep_work> I didn't know either. :)
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13:05:24 <clokep_work> I really like the sort by status also that puts ops, hops, voice, everyone else.
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13:25:35 <clokep_work> We probably need a status update, it's been about a month since 0.3a2 was released and a lot of checkins have happened.
13:26:06 <flo> we do. ;)
13:28:12 <clokep_work> Maybe I can look at it later. :P
13:28:36 <flo> I think at some point we will need to find a much better way to deal with that
13:28:46 <Mic2> I've got a few minutes time, I can start going through the list of checkins ..
13:29:23 <flo> if we do it because "it's been a while since the previous post" rather than because we are excited of what we announced, people feel it.
13:29:57 <clokep_work> I'm pretty excited about being able to change the buddy icon. ;)
13:30:09 <flo> :)
13:33:37 <flo> what about a blog post just about that feature then?
13:35:04 <clokep_work> That could be good.
13:35:17 <flo> (and a status update a day or two later)
13:35:27 <flo> by the way, we should really have posted some excitement about SoC ;)
13:35:46 <Mic2> I just wanted to say that we could list all changes in a separate post
13:35:58 <Mic2> and have an excited one about the buddy icons
13:36:20 <clokep_work> Ah, yes. :( I forgot about that one. . . we really should do that w/ a link to the code / blog, etc.
13:36:45 <Mic2> How's the work for SoC going by the way?
13:37:00 <clokep_work> He's been checking stuff in. ;)
13:37:26 <clokep_work> So I see three posts now: SoC one, buddy icon one, status update one?
13:38:12 <Mic2> I'd do the status update
13:40:45 <flo> I will do the time bubble one, once that lands on nightlies.
13:41:44 <clokep_work> I can do the buddy icon one. I'll need to take some screen shots though. :)
13:44:34 <flo> hmm, time bubbles is neither on the roadmap page, nor on my bugzilla query :-S
13:45:10 <Mic2> I don't think we have a bug for this
13:46:25 <clokep_work> I thought it was all hush-hush and secret? ;)
13:46:51 <flo> I don't talk about the secret plans here :-P.
13:48:55 <clokep_work> :)
13:49:39 <flo> I don't know how soon we should start talking openly/blogging about our plans for after 0.3
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13:52:02 <clokep_work> Isn't it better to excite people about 0.3, which will be out soon then 0.4, which will be out..e.ventuall?
13:52:04 <clokep_work> eventually
13:52:22 <flo> or will never be.
13:52:53 <flo> the point is how soon we should warn that the plans will be changing to scare people who care as little as possible.
13:53:23 <Mic2> ?
13:53:52 <flo> we will have to seriously rethink the way we work for at least 2 reasons:
13:54:07 <Mic2> 0.3 took way longer than expected again?
13:54:31 <flo> 1. We can't keep doing feature releases only once a year in the new fast paced development model mozilla is adopting.
13:55:09 <flo> we will have to think about switching to a time-based release schedule, so that we can pick new Mozilla and new libpurple versions quickly.
13:55:25 <flo> so deciding before the release what will be in it with a clear roadmap won't be possible any more.
13:55:49 <clokep_work> Right.
13:56:09 <Mic2> That isn't really scary in my opinion
13:56:10 <flo> 2. I won't be able to continue being involved full-time with the project much longer. (I would say for 6 months at most)
13:56:45 <clokep_work> Honestly I would say that we could switch to time based releases (almost) immediately if we wanted to.
13:56:58 <clokep_work> There's a few regressions that need to be fixed first ,but then 0.3 would really be released.
13:57:13 <flo> we are not ready for the localizations
13:57:40 <clokep_work> Ah, I always forget about this.
13:57:50 <flo> American :-P
13:57:54 <clokep_work> My fault for being English speaking and not having other languages around often. :(
14:00:35 <clokep_work> I'm hoping to be able to start making larger changes now that I can compile. Hopefully some more contributors will come along though. :-/
14:01:20 <flo> I believe/hope a time based release model where it's easy to know when one's contributions will end up in the hands of the end-users will be more motivating for external contributors
14:01:55 <Mic2> clokep_work: I agree, not being able to compile really limits the size of things one can do..
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14:02:44 <clokep_work> flo: Quite possibly, I think it's especially good since we're pulling from two projects.  The same six week thing that Mozilla will do?
14:03:30 <flo> 6 or 12. It would be better if all our releases could have at least something user-visible changed.
14:03:33 <Mic2> It's six weeks between releases but not from nightly to release..
14:04:11 <flo> we probably won't have all the complicated channels they have. We aren't big enough for it to be worth the time investment.
14:04:28 <flo> Mic2: it's six weeks between release opportunities. Which is a bit different.
14:07:22 <clokep_work> Yeah, the channels is confusing. I think nightly + release is aall we need.
14:08:38 <flo> yeah, and we can get rid of all the betas and alphas that take a lot of time to produce and aren't really needed (as they tend to be stable anyway)
14:08:42 <Mic2> If we had as many channels and pull libpurple or Mozilla changes into nightlies, they'd also sit around for three or four month until a release
14:09:03 <Mic2> So I guess this wouldn't be a good idea... and our nightlies are quite good anyways
14:09:16 <clokep_work> We also don't have enough users to test all the channels.
14:09:30 <clokep_work> Hah, well usually good. :-D
14:09:36 <flo> if we don't use a beta channel, we will need to have a string freeze period before each release, which Mozilla doesn't do anymore (but Pidgin does)
14:11:15 <Mic2> clokep_work: Mozilla also came up with some funny numbers concerning testers :P
14:11:16 <flo> I think we will all relatively easily agree on the changes (except for some bikeshedding on consequences w.r.t. version numbers) because they are sensible.
14:11:53 <flo> I said people would be scared because of the common "OMG change" reaction to whatever is announced, especially if it's announced suddenly.
14:13:30 <clokep_work> Version numbers are just a distraction right now, so I think we can ignore them. Unless someone wants to bikeshed currently?
14:14:55 <flo> yeah, I think we should avoid them until we have decided what we will be doing exactly.
14:15:08 <flo> or we can give bikeshedders a play field :)
14:16:14 <Mic2> I'd really like to comment on this now but I guess it would be bikeshedding :D
14:16:46 <flo> put comments on a wiki page, then I'll add some thoughts, and we can invite people to join us ;)
14:17:13 <flo> I've thought of at least 3-4 acceptable new version number schemes for the changes already :-D
14:17:13 <Mic2> Shall we name the article "Bikeshedding on version numbers" ? ;)
14:17:55 <Mic2> The one that came to my mind w.r.t. to time-based releases is the Ubuntu numbering scheme
14:17:55 <flo> it's even something for which we could possibly invite users to vote :-D
14:18:51 * flo looks forward to releasing Instantbird 1111 :)
14:19:36 <Mic2> Or just leave them away .. 
14:22:14 <clokep_work> So what is left for 0.3 that we can help w/ then? :-D I'm gonna try to get those commands working.
14:22:52 <flo> "what is left for 0.3 that we can help w/ then?" I was trying to answer that question for me. More or less "what can I do now?"
14:23:05 <flo> I'm currently cleaning up my todo list, which is full of horribly outdated mess
14:23:33 <flo> I feel almost like on a Friday afternoon/evening
14:24:13 <flo> My attention was mostly focused on that play during the week-end/yesterday, and now that it's done, I feel like the week is over :-D.
14:25:16 <clokep_work> Haha, you were in a play I'm guessing?
14:25:28 <flo> yeah
14:26:01 <Mic2> What was it then?
14:27:30 <flo> I've been to a drama club every Wednesday evening this year (and lots of Friday evenings too).
14:27:41 <flo> It was a series of sketches we created for the occasion
14:29:08 <flo> the room was packed (120-150 people) and people seemed to appreciate, they laughed and applauded a lot.
14:29:29 <clokep_work> Ah, cool. :) One of my roommates in college used to do that, they were always fun shows.
14:29:30 <Mic2> Cool, sounds like it was fun
14:36:12 <flo> yes, we had a lot of fun. Both yesterday and during the whole year :).
14:40:19 <Mic2> bye
14:40:34 <clokep_work> Bye!
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14:45:58 <clokep_work> We need to get some people who need to work on these good first bugs. :-D
14:46:52 <flo> yeah, so that reviewing the patch takes more time than fixing the bug (that we don't really care about all that much) than writing the patch ourselves ;).
14:49:41 <clokep_work> Yup. :)
14:49:51 <flo> it's really an "investment" ;)
14:51:20 <flo> I would like a gmail filter "Move to trash after 30 days"
14:51:36 <clokep_work> Filling up your gmail?
14:51:46 <flo> "You are currently using 2112 MB (27 %) of your 7583 MB."
14:54:35 <clokep_work> "You are currently using 131 MB (1 %) of your 7583 MB." :P
14:54:47 <flo> I feel bad for all the stared emails that were sent to the contact mailing list (before it became public) and never got any reply
15:03:02 <clokep_work> :-/ There's a lot of them?
15:04:00 <flo> less than a dozen I think
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15:04:32 <flo> those that didn't motivate anybody on the old mailing list to reply, so these are the confusing/uninteresting ones.
15:05:18 <flo> but sometimes also people with issues that we have absolutely no clue about (like one I've just seen about a screenreader issue for a blind user)
15:05:20 <clokep_work> Yes, confusing seems to be the trend on questions.
15:05:30 <clokep_work> Right.
15:08:41 <flo> it's too bad that when I stared emails (especially bugmails) I didn't add a quick comment about what needed to be done about that email
15:10:27 <flo> there are also all the questions about QQ
15:10:34 <flo> (that more or less never got any replies)
15:12:06 <clokep_work> Looks like libpurple is dropping QQ...maybe? But there is the other plug-in which "works" according to the mailing list...
15:12:44 <flo> I read that thread too
15:15:50 <flo> is bug 650 blocking "[Twitter] Reconnect automatically when going back from offline " of the roadmap?
15:15:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=650 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, JavaScript accounts must be notified of status changes
15:16:04 <flo> if so it should have a [0.3-<something>] in its whiteboard
15:16:12 <clokep_work> Probably 0.3-something
15:18:23 <flo> or should we just use observers in each account that cares?
15:20:10 <clokep_work> Let me re-read it.
15:21:22 <clokep_work> How does it work for libpurple protocols?
15:21:40 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/src/purpleCoreService.cpp#913
15:22:03 <flo> the core (purplexpcom) calls libpurple's core function for changing the status
15:26:30 <clokep_work> Hmm...OK.
15:26:53 <clokep_work> So that should call the libpurple function or the js function depending on the type of account.
15:28:27 <flo> it would be hard to do that without rewriting purpleAccounsService/purpleAccountBase to be less confusing
15:31:47 <clokep_work> Then for 0.3 the best thing to do is probably just put an observer on the Twitter stuff, yes.
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15:47:09 <flo> I've got to go. Back later :)
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19:31:36 <Mic> hi
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19:50:27 <clokep_work> What I had written up for the blog post, needs a lot of work though: http://typewith.me/cuWubTvX83
19:58:29 <clokep_work> Bye
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22:46:00 <deOmega> hi, how is everyone doing?  
22:50:08 <flo> deOmega: hello :)
22:50:39 <deOmega> How are things going?
22:51:12 <deOmega> I saw a writeup by lifehacker on  pidgin and thought it was interesting.
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22:51:50 <deOmega> so thought I would stop by  to see if the competitive juices were flowing in here :)
22:53:33 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): how are you
22:54:03 <flo> we are fine I guess :)
22:55:21 <DGMurdockIII> i found a few bugs with new ico feature
22:55:30 <DGMurdockIII> icon*
22:57:23 <DGMurdockIII> anmated gif dont work
22:59:20 <deOmega> alright... have a great evening :)
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23:02:55 <DGMurdockIII> they work but the anmation dont show up in the tooltip when you hover over the username in buddylist
23:04:15 <DGMurdockIII> and look at icon in the tooltip buddy icon look has a block backround when it dose not
23:05:24 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): here is the icon im using http://www.badassbuddy.com/Badass_Buddy_Icons/Firefox_Buddy_Icon/?se=1
23:06:54 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): did you see the new wiki page clokep made
23:12:47 <flo> DGMurdockIII: did you see my comments about gif images yesterday?
23:13:23 <DGMurdockIII> on a bug report or on irc
23:13:36 <DGMurdockIII> brb dog want to go outside
23:13:57 <DGMurdockIII> here the wiki page https://wiki.instantbird.org/Protocol_features_support
23:14:21 <DGMurdockIII> back
23:17:22 <DGMurdockIII> i see it now brb
23:19:01 <DGMurdockIII> back
23:19:15 <flo> arg, I have that "CSS animations fail to start/finish" bug again :(
23:20:02 <DGMurdockIII> what CSS animations are you talking about
23:20:44 <DGMurdockIII> the one when buddies disconnect and connect
23:21:58 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): 21:58:13 <flo> http://img.badassbuddy.com/buddies/96x96/badassbuddy_com-firefox.gif can't work on AIM because it weights almost 15kB and AIM limits to 7kB.
23:22:13 <DGMurdockIII> is that the reason why it has a block backround
23:22:58 <flo> any transparent image that needs to be converted to something not PNG (and AIM doesn't support PNG) will have a solid background
23:23:12 <flo> anybody feeling like commenting "Has any of you tried Instantbird?" on http://lifehacker.com/5802706/the-best-instant-messaging-application-for-windows ?
23:26:37 <DGMurdockIII> i would but i dont se it
23:27:09 <flo> Good night
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