#instantbird log on 04 23 2011

All times are UTC.

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10:17:16 <igorko> hi
10:17:20 <igorko> flo ping
10:27:03 <igorko> flo: line 89 http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/0b4aafaedc93/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/instantbird.dtd
10:27:51 <igorko> line 7 and 8 http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/0b4aafaedc93/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/instantbird.properties
10:28:21 <igorko> groups must be replaced with tags?
10:28:51 <igorko> i can file a bug but don't think it will be usefull
10:29:13 <igorko> it needs few minutes to replace string names
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11:56:44 <flo> igorko: I think these strings will be changed once we add a way to add and remove tags from a contact (and no longer need the "move to" menu)
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13:50:33 <clokep> Hello.
13:52:06 <clokep> igorko: It's not bad to file a bug even if something is "trivial". :) Just means it'll sit in our trivial queue for a long time. ;)
13:53:38 <flo> in this case it seems to be a part of a feature blocking 0.3 ;)
13:55:50 <flo> I wonder if time bubbles could be made the default at some point (soon?)
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13:57:16 <flo> I would need some feedback from windows/linux users to indicate that the blinking scrollbar bug has really dissappeared of course :).
13:58:18 <clokep> Ohhh. I meant to check that out, let me find the link again.
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14:02:15 <clokep> So does this just show the time if x number of seconds has occurred since the last message?
14:02:37 <clokep> flo: My scroll bar works OK on Twitter, but not sure of what the exact issue was.
14:03:07 <flo> it shows the time just after the nick when you hover a bubble
14:03:20 <flo> it displays the time between 2 bubbles using the height of the margin
14:03:35 <flo> if the time is above 5 minutes, it will display it in full text
14:04:17 <clokep> Ah, cool. :)
14:04:27 <flo> and the time between the newest bubble and now is displayed in the same way has the time between 2 bubbles, which means all the conversation moves up automatically with a timer... and the scrollbar used to disappear for a split second on Windows/linux each time the conversation was moved because of that.
14:04:42 <flo> s/has/as/
14:05:19 <clokep> Seems OK for me.
14:05:24 <clokep> Bleh bmo is down. :(
14:05:39 <flo> I tested it quickly in my Windows VM yesterday and I couldn't reproduce that bug anymore
14:05:50 <flo> and the other 2 known bugs... I fixed them yesterday :)
14:05:59 <clokep> Yeah it's working for me. I'll play w/ it for a bit and make sure.
14:07:14 <flo> yeah, tell me if you find bugs, but also if you like it / if it seems an useful improvement over the standard bubble :)
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14:10:21 <clokep> Will do...not that I don't /normally/ use bubbles anyway though. :)
14:10:56 <flo> what do you use usually?
14:12:55 <clokep> Simple
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14:13:02 <flo> why? :)
14:13:09 <clokep> Takes up less space!
14:13:19 <clokep> I like the mouseover effect w/ the time.
14:13:32 <flo> time bubbles removed for me the 2 "takes too much space" and "doesn't display the time" problems of bubbles
14:13:33 <clokep> The system messages I feel like don't fit in great. :-/
14:13:41 <igorko> flo: saw my posts?
14:14:06 <flo> igorko: http://log.bezut.info/instantbird/today#m37
14:14:28 <clokep> But if I use bubbles I need to stop using my customized Show Nick. :P
14:14:47 <flo> added benefit! :-D
14:14:54 <igorko> i see
14:14:55 <flo> or did it do some more things?
14:15:50 <flo> about Show nick. Someday I should fix it, and then maybe it could be integrated by default, so that all default themes have a good theming for it.
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14:20:16 <clokep> No, it just added  changed the styling.
14:22:25 <flo> I have this error when opening the buddy list: Error: uncaught exception: [Exception... "'[JavaScript Error: "this._observers is undefined" {file: "resource://gre/components/imContacts.js" line: 743}]' when calling method: [imIContact::addObserver]"  nsresult: "0x80570021 (NS_ERROR_XPC_JAVASCRIPT_ERROR_WITH_DETAILS)"  location: "JS frame :: chrome://instantbird/content/contact.xml :: build :: line 85"  data: yes]
14:22:27 <flo> :-S
14:23:01 <flo> and the group name of the "Other contacts" tag seems to be 'undefined'
14:24:19 <flo> so it seems I somehow have a broken contact in my list
14:25:02 <clokep> :( I don't have that, but I don't use Other contacts.
14:25:23 <flo> it may not even be related to the other contacts thing :)
14:25:40 <flo> almost all my tags are hidden
14:26:03 <flo> so it could really be any of my ~12 accounts that has a broken contact somehow
14:26:14 <flo> but it's the first time I see this error/issue
14:28:35 <clokep> :(
14:28:39 <clokep> Who's online that's not usually?!
14:28:48 <flo> nobody
14:29:05 <clokep> Could be a server sending back junk too, who knows.
14:29:05 <flo> but if the contact is really broken, it could be that the broken contact is not displayed
14:30:05 <flo> without steps to reproduce / a way to debug, it could be anything
14:30:11 <clokep> Right. :-/
14:30:18 <clokep> I guess you'll need to see if it happens again.
14:30:20 <flo> if the problem persists after a restart, I can try it in my debug build to see if there are more interesting warnings in the termanl
14:35:49 <clokep> Hey flo I found a bug with Timebubbles.
14:35:53 <clokep> Or is it Time Bubbles?
14:36:35 <flo> what's the bug? :-P
14:36:40 <clokep> Oh wait.
14:36:48 <clokep> No, never mind. It was my misunderstanding of something. :)
14:36:59 <flo> that's interesting too
14:37:27 <clokep> I had two back to back twitter messages that were days old and it said "5 minutes 44 seconds" between them. My first reaction was "Wait! That wasn't 5 minutes ago!"
14:37:33 <clokep> But it's meant in between bubbles, not "ago"
14:37:44 <flo> :)
14:38:07 <clokep> But I think on bubbles where it didn't happen on today's date...when you mouseover it should do hh:mm - dd/mm/yyyy (in the applicable date format. ;))
14:38:20 <flo> that makes me think when hovering a bubble it could say how long ago that was, rather than the time :)
14:38:46 <flo> "2 days and 5 hours ago" would be more readable to me :)
14:39:21 <clokep> Possibly. I do like having the actual time though.
14:39:28 <flo> "dd/mm/yyyy" you use that? I thought it was mm/dd/yyyy in the US.
14:39:43 <clokep> Yeah, it is. I typed it out wrong.
14:39:50 <flo> you've always had the exact time (with the seconds!) in the tooltip of each message
14:40:02 <flo> dd/mm/yyyy makes much more sense anyway ;)
14:40:21 <clokep> The tooltip should show the date if it's not today then. :)
14:40:29 <flo> yes
14:40:41 <flo> that's harder to make as the tooltips are not (yet) dynamically generated
14:40:48 <clokep> I usually use yyyymmdd when I need to keep things ordered.
14:40:51 <flo> they are just the "title" HTML attribute
14:41:01 <clokep> Oh, I didn't realize that.
14:41:14 <clokep> Could regenerate the title attribute on hover. ;)
14:41:22 <flo> was about to say we could do that :-D
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14:41:46 <flo> Tooltip are not very discoverable though
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14:42:09 <clokep> I do really like how the system messages fold in /(?:Time )?Bubbles/.
14:42:14 <clokep> I miss that when I use Simple.
14:42:24 <flo> it's not new in time bubbles :)
14:42:33 <flo> it was one of the nice points of bubbles :)
14:42:42 <clokep> I know, my regex matches both. ;)
14:43:03 <clokep> I use bubbles in my dev build FWIW. I like it.
14:43:27 <flo> I disliked the waste of space
14:43:47 <flo> with time bubbles I believe the vertical space becomes useful :)
14:44:09 <clokep> Bah that just pinged me haha. But yes, it's useful. :)
14:44:18 <clokep> I think it might be hard for people to understand what's happening though.
14:44:34 <flo> is it harmful if they don't understand?
14:44:49 <flo> the automatic scrolling of the last conversation was more or less designed as a way to make the whole thing discoverable
14:44:56 <flo> s/last/whole/
14:46:10 <clokep> It's harmful in that they'll think things are poorly aligned not on purpose perhaps.
14:46:52 <flo> the best thing would be them to not consciously understand, but to feel the time elapsing :). But maybe I'm dreaming here :-D.
14:47:14 <clokep> You need to give it to people who you haven't explained to before then. :)
14:47:25 <flo> it's hard to get feedback then
14:49:23 <clokep> True.
14:49:27 <clokep> Hire interns?
14:50:12 <flo> that's complicated :-/
14:50:49 <flo> I tried to hire Morian as an intern for a month at some point but it failed because of some stupid administrative issues
14:51:05 <clokep> :( I have people I could give it to and force them to give me an opinion. :)
14:51:36 <clokep> flo: Email the mailing list and say "I have a theme I'm thinking of making the default, could you please give me feedback?"
14:51:48 <clokep> Yes, they'll know that /something/ is up and it's meant to be different.
14:51:49 <flo> take people who currently use bubbles, secretly install time bubble, and ask a week later if they have noticed :)
14:51:51 <clokep> But it's still better feedback.
14:51:58 <flo> or even better, remove it a week later, and see if the complain :)
14:52:00 <clokep> Hahah. I could probably do that.
14:53:00 <flo> but I liked the idea of changing the thing that appears when hovering the bubble, so I'll probably change that before trying to get more feedback :)
14:53:34 <flo> one of the core idea behind the time bubble experiment is that time matters, but time stamps are not human readable
14:54:05 <clokep> I agree. :0
14:54:08 <clokep> :)
14:54:28 <clokep> This might be a silly idea, but what about putting a timeline sort of gauge on the side next to it?
14:54:28 <flo> + reducing the wasted space :)
14:54:34 <clokep> Although...time isn't linear in it, so I guess that doesn't help.
14:54:57 <flo> that doesn't work because the time you take to make a whole bubble would be counted in weeks :-D
14:55:05 <flo> (on the scale)
14:55:13 <clokep> Ah, true. Message lengths vary...
14:55:16 <flo> and year, the time is logarithmic :)
14:55:45 <flo> I would like to make new messages scroll into view with a transition, but that's hard to do :)
14:55:56 <clokep> One thing I do find a bit discerning about it though is that I have a window that's opened and unfocused...the buddy hasn't said anything....but it still moves and draws my eye to it.
14:56:36 <flo> yeah, that's the really disappointing aspect :(
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14:57:00 <flo> eyes are very sensitive to even very small moves
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14:57:09 <flo> and we can't really move by less than 1 pixel at a time
14:57:36 <clokep> Gecko understands heights < 1 pixel. ;)
14:57:46 <flo> would it display it?
14:57:48 <clokep> But then it rounds. :P
14:57:50 <clokep> No.
14:58:01 <flo> it's possible it would have some impact on the shadows
14:58:19 <clokep> Could you smoothly do it by using a transition?
14:58:30 <clokep> Say change the margin from 0 to xxx px in xxx time.
14:58:43 <clokep> Although I ugess you're sitll limited by the display.
14:58:45 <clokep> Never mind.
14:58:47 <flo> it never changes of more than 1px at a time
14:59:20 <clokep> Right, right. My bad.
14:59:20 <flo> (except when displaying new messages of course)
14:59:53 <flo> but, yes, I'm wondering if we could make the last pixel line of the bubble disappear smoothly with a transition on its opacity, or something like that
15:00:04 <flo> to make the move even smaller/slower
15:01:07 <flo> and I think Mozilla does subpixel antialiasing so it's possible <1px values would be displayed, but I believe that's only improving things horizontally, which doesn't matter for us
15:01:26 <clokep> I'm not sure. :-/
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15:01:56 <flo> it's also interesting to see if you notice the 1px background jumps only just after installing it, of if you keep noticing them after a week
15:02:11 <clokep> True.
15:02:15 <clokep> I do like it so far though. :)
15:02:29 <flo> I still notice them after a year, but they no longer seem to distract me often
15:02:45 <flo> and actually, when the message is more than 10s old, it moves very rarely
15:03:21 <clokep> True.
15:04:38 <flo> I thought about further reducing the wasted space by using the background to display the status of the contact at the time of the message
15:05:05 <flo> as each status has a different color (green for available, red for busy, orange of idle, ...) a color would be enough to show the status change
15:06:11 <flo> I've never actually implemented this though. :-/
15:08:57 <clokep> That could be neat...but doesn't that conflict w/ the coloring scheme that you choose / the chat room colors.
15:09:26 <flo> "maybe"
15:09:30 <flo> it's hard to know without trying
15:09:58 <clokep> Another option to get feedback is to just enable it on nightly builds and see who complains. :)
15:10:44 <flo> I think I'll also post on the blog (but maybe a week later :-P) to explain the rational, and to request that people who replace bubble because of the lack of time information retry it
15:11:15 <clokep> :)
15:12:32 <flo> the other issue with putting it by default is that it would be almost impossible to disable/get back the old behavior
15:13:34 <clokep> They're nightly users. ;)
15:14:30 <flo> sure. But I'm unlikely to want to back it out :-D
15:15:58 <clokep> :)
15:16:07 <clokep> Would it eventually replace Bubbles or be in addition to it?
15:16:19 <flo> it would replace it
15:16:26 <flo> or be part of it
15:16:28 <clokep> Yay bmo is back.
15:16:31 <clokep> Right.
15:16:42 <flo> it would be nice if it could just be an option
15:17:13 <clokep> But our message styles don't support options yet?
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15:17:32 <flo> yes
15:17:37 <flo> I can't find the bug about it :-/
15:18:23 <flo> if we had had option support in the themes system, I would have checked it (time bubbles) in a long time ago :-D
15:21:38 <clokep> How difficult is that to do?
15:22:13 <flo> it opens the localizability issue again.
15:22:30 <flo> we tried to ensure there's nothing to localize in message themes
15:23:06 <clokep> Makes sense.
15:23:15 <clokep> I didn't realize that was the reasoning behind it.
15:23:23 <clokep> I don't think I was around when this was discussed. :)
15:23:48 <flo> it's possible the discussion wasn't public
15:24:08 <flo> I designed the message theme system about 2 years ago
15:24:38 <flo> (or I should rather say its implementation in Instantbird, as the design is from Adium of course)
15:26:05 <clokep> Right.
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15:54:14 <clokep> I feel like the system message style doesn't really match the bubble style in a lot of ways. :-(
15:54:42 <flo> what's wrong about it?
15:55:08 <clokep> I just feel like it's strange that the time is shown and it's along the lines of "<user> left the room"
15:55:16 <clokep> Instead of <user> in the top left and a message below it.
15:56:25 <flo> it's hard to address the "<user> in the top left and a message below it" part and keep the nice combining of system messages
15:57:58 <clokep> That's true.
15:58:12 <clokep> I didn't think of that aspect. :)
16:09:45 <flo> http://www.ohloh.net/p/instantbird the "Project Cost" part at the bottom right is... interesting :)
16:10:53 <clokep> Hahah.
16:11:01 <clokep> 88 person years? I don't think we've spent that.
16:11:50 <clokep> I didn't realize it pulled the Hg logs and put us all in there as developers, etc.
16:12:02 <flo> they believe we wrote glib and libpurple from scratch
16:12:29 <clokep> Yup! :)
16:13:06 <flo> http://www.ohloh.net/p/instantbird/contributors it's also nice to learn that my primary language is XML :)
16:13:33 <clokep> And that you're three people.
16:13:41 <flo> I didn't know Morian had that many commits :)
16:14:01 <clokep> I didn't know I had that many commits.
16:14:09 <flo> the second florian is probably the svn commiter way back at the beginning of the project
16:14:19 <clokep> I actually ran Hg churn on our code the other day to check it out.
16:15:50 <flo> "Florian Quèze This developer has been contributing to this project since August 2008, with a total of 33 person-months of code development." I don't know how they calculated that figure of 33 months, but it's almost accurate
16:16:14 <clokep> Usually by lines of code + commits?
16:16:58 <clokep> hg churn: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/663
16:17:31 <clokep> Second one ignores libpurple + libraries.
16:17:35 <clokep> Which is mostly accurate.
16:18:27 <flo> http://www.ohloh.net/p/instantbird/factoids/5038105 is a bit surprising
16:18:59 <clokep> Bigger but fewer commits?
16:19:17 <clokep> "total number of commits made by all developers...number of developers and total lines of code are not considered"
16:19:39 <clokep> Also if people are reviewing stuff it'll be commits w/ fewer mistakes.
16:21:12 <clokep> 7 person months is a bit of overkill for me I think.
16:21:54 <clokep> I'd sign up for ohloh...if I didn't have to create an account. ;)
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16:25:24 <clokep> Can we upgrade to Bugzilla 4.0? Just so that it adds a "Take" link next to "Assigned To". :)
16:27:21 <flo> "    Florian Queze will be renamed to Florian Quèze | Changes will take effect after the next Ohloh report update.
16:27:21 <flo>     florian will be renamed to Florian Quèze | Changes will take effect after the next Ohloh report update."
16:27:37 <clokep> :)
16:29:25 <flo> and I added purple/libraries and purple/libpurple in the ignored files
16:29:53 <flo> we will see tomorrow (or whenever the next update is) how that changes the results :)
16:31:32 <clokep> Cool.
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16:52:13 <clokep> I'm surprised you're not in #adium-devl on freenode. ;)
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17:19:18 <flo> ah?
17:19:32 <flo> are they saying interesting things?
17:19:58 <flo> I used to be there, but I have way too many MUC tabs that are always open :-/.
17:20:07 <clokep> Only thing said is that Mac OS X != Unix. ;)
17:20:16 <clokep> Right.
17:20:32 <clokep> Honestly I usually find the conversation in #pidgin and devel@pidgin and #chatzilla rather useless, but I go in them.
17:20:38 <clokep> Usually them just mocking users. :(
17:20:55 <flo> in #chatzilla too?
17:21:13 <clokep> #chatzilla is worse than #pidgin.
17:22:24 <flo> Pidgin is interesting mostly to see what users complain about in Pidgin, so that if someone here ask a question about a protocol not working, we can know if it's a libpurple issue or not :)
17:22:45 <clokep> Usually it's "Don't complain to use, Firefox broke us, complain to them" without any concern that they're a Firefox consumer and need to keep up to date w/ the changes.
17:23:21 <flo> or they need to check-in unit tests ;)
17:23:47 <clokep> That too. :)
17:24:07 <clokep> Yes, it's true and sucks that Firefox changes break them. But I just don't like the attitude in the room.
17:24:15 <clokep> It's very flippant to the users / potential developers.
17:25:44 <flo> are there active developers anyway?
17:25:53 <clokep> Like they'll immediately get annoyed when someone can't figure out how to use something in the ChatZilla.
17:26:33 <clokep> A few days ago someone was saying they didn't understand what an option did, because it was ambiguous...and someone was like "No, it's not. I understand exactly what it does."
17:26:35 <flo> I've never been able to figure out how to use ChatZilla without wanting to close it each time I see it ;)
17:26:37 <clokep> They probably wrote the option. :P
17:26:58 <flo> or read the code to know what it was about
17:27:07 <clokep> I think the developers of ChatZilla consider it "working and done"....but it could use more work IMO.
17:28:00 <flo> if we figure out what chatzilla use miss in Instantbird, maybe we can take over their userbase :-P
17:28:19 <flo> *users
17:28:57 <clokep> I should just PM people to use Instantbird instead. :-D
17:29:04 <clokep> It really is the most friendly IRC client I've ever used.
17:29:19 <clokep> I don't understand the need people feel to expose the protocol in the  client.
17:33:18 <flo> "the most friendly IRC client I've ever used" is it because you fixed already all the itches that made it unfriendly *for you*? ;)
17:34:35 <clokep> Hahah.
17:34:43 <clokep> I'm not using JS-IRC right now.
17:34:49 <clokep> So no. :) I'm using libpurple stuff right now.
17:35:08 <flo> 2 attempts on Omegle. 2 bots. Sight.
17:35:25 <flo> haven't you fixed some stuff outside of JS-IRC? ;)
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17:36:59 <clokep> I don't think so?
17:37:14 * clokep goes to check his commit log
17:37:20 <flo> ahah
17:37:47 <flo> I think the #1 itch I have currently is the inability to close conversation windows without closing the conversations
17:39:29 <clokep> Hmmm....yes, I would certainly like to close most of my chat windows until "activity" happens.
17:42:46 <clokep> I don't think that's on the 0.3 list though, is it? ;)
17:43:08 <flo> it's on the "when I have time" list :-D
17:43:15 <flo> most likely for an add-on first
17:43:42 <clokep> bbl
17:43:44 <flo> I hope the purpleConv / UIConv separation could help here :)
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18:32:06 <clokep> Lots of stuff to block the work we actually want to do. ;)
18:34:46 <clokep> Instantbird's smiley code is much more readable than ChatZilla's. ;) https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=525052&action=diff
18:40:53 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 762 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
18:40:54 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 599 to bug 762.
18:40:55 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Minor styling issue on the status message box on the Contact-list
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18:42:21 <clokep> Mic: I see both borders.
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18:43:39 <Mic> hmm, ok. I'm having a plain vanilla Windows 7 with a recent nightly
18:43:41 <clokep> Probably still needs a couple more pixels of space between though.
18:43:52 <clokep> You're on Aero Basic, right?
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18:45:29 <Mic> umm, how do I tell which I have?
18:45:58 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 600 to bug 762.
18:46:00 <clokep> Do you have glass effects?
18:46:02 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=762 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Minor styling issue on the status message box on the Contact-list
18:46:06 <Mic> Yes
18:46:12 <clokep> Looks like you don't since the window is all bluish.
18:46:15 <clokep> Oh, OK.
18:46:26 <clokep> Then you're on on Basic. :)
18:47:14 <Mic> I took a screenshot of a zoomed image since I don't have anything but mspaint here to do it
18:48:30 <clokep> Me too. :)
18:48:55 <clokep> Your background + the glass just must be a simliar color to the aero basic, so I was confusd.
18:48:56 <Mic> Ah, I'm having glass
18:49:07 <Mic> Yes, just figured it out
18:49:21 <Mic> i need to go, so have happy easter and see you soon
18:50:34 <Mic> Yes, I have. The translucent/transparent effects, with the white diagonal stripes that move if you move the window
18:51:16 <Mic> ah, I better leave :P
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19:41:27 <flo> the new bugzilla is really ugly :(
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19:57:36 <flo> after a restart, my buddy list problem disappeared
19:58:16 <flo> before restarting I used some magic JS incantations in the error console and found which contact was causing the issue.
19:58:57 <flo> It's a netsoul buddy which I have since that merged into another contact. For some reason, the old dummy (=with <0 id) contact was still in the list
19:59:16 <flo> hmm
19:59:29 <flo> that's maybe a bug of the "other contact" thing that wouldn't properly remove those contacts
19:59:33 <flo> I should try to reproduce it
20:04:00 <flo> hmm, if I put sand.mozilla.org and nickserv in my buddy list and then merge them into a single contact, I should have only one tab to close each time I reconnect :)
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20:48:25 <clokep> That's only until you connect to gravel.mozilla.org ;)
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20:51:17 <clokep> Also, I think watching a global watcher doesn't give me all those emails. :(
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21:01:59 <flo> clokep: "That's only until you connect to gravel.mozilla.org ;)" sure. When do you think JS-IRC will make us forget all those stupid tabs? ;)
21:02:49 <clokep> flo: After I finish actually getting the protocol to work. :) You shouldn't see NickServ stuff then at least.
21:03:00 <clokep> The sand.mozilla.org tab at least shows the MotD.
21:03:13 <clokep> But I should probably add a "Don't show server tab." option to the protocol. :)
21:03:51 <clokep> Oh hey, is DOMi supposed to add a menu button automatically?
21:03:57 * clokep vaguely recalls something like that.
21:05:57 <flo> a menu button where?
21:06:05 <clokep> Tools menu?
21:06:20 <clokep> I might just be crazy, but I thought that was discussed at one point.
21:10:03 <flo> I haven't installed it in a while
21:10:09 <flo> it's by default in debug builds in the "debug" menu
21:11:00 <clokep> Ah, OK. Must have been the debug builds I was thinking of. :)
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