#instantbird log on 03 10 2011

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14:32:24 <clokep_work> Hello. :)
14:34:46 <flo> hey :)
14:35:04 <clokep_work> The MPL 2 boilerplate really is a lot shorter! By it being like a couple of lines.
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14:56:43 * flo is looking for a solution to the tags/groups that can be changed/moved.
14:57:24 <flo> would it be acceptable to ignore by default all the groups on the server side list, and then let the user select a list of groups that actually matter, and to display all the other contacts in an "Other contacts" generic group?
14:59:59 <clokep_work> Select the list of groups as a whole or per contact?
15:00:10 <flo> the list of groups to display in the buddy list
15:00:26 <flo> and contacts that are not part of one of these groups would be displayed in the "Other contacts" group
15:00:54 <clokep_work> That could work.
15:01:06 <flo> I'm not sure of how much people would complain
15:01:17 <flo> I'm not sure of how many users really rely on groups
15:01:23 <clokep_work> By default though they would all be shown?
15:01:34 <clokep_work> "Most" people I know at least have a few groups.
15:02:06 <flo> I haven't used them for years, they are completely broken and useless in my list (they are named "buddies", "other buddies", "recent buddies", "contacts", "other contacts", ... (all "generic" groups created automatically by some client at some point)
15:02:09 <clokep_work> I personally have a few ("Buddies", "<school friends>", smaller groups for people that don't really fit in others -- like "Instantbird" :P)
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15:04:20 <flo> would you really miss them if those contacts were all mixed together?
15:05:26 <clokep_work> Sometimes, but usually I have them all open anyway.
15:05:43 <clokep_work> I think I'd prefer having one list + filtering.
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15:05:54 <clokep_work> (As my like "ideal" set up.)
15:07:19 <flo> I would like to have a list of 3 to 10 (depending on user preferences maybe) "important" contacts at the top, always expanded (so always a full line for the status message). Those are the contact that the user is likely to contact.
15:07:29 <flo> then "Other contacts" with a random mess of everybody else
15:07:58 <clokep_work> So a "Favorites" category. ;)
15:08:34 <clokep_work> You could also ignore server groups and keep track of groups separately...but I think people will be annoyed having to reset up all their groups.
15:09:04 <flo> Important contacts are the most contacted + those the users marked as favorite
15:09:24 <flo> yeah, I would like to ignore server groups
15:09:42 <flo> and copy server groups to local tags only for the relevant tags (those the user selects in some configuration dialog)
15:11:07 <clokep_work> As long as there's a way to "show" the server groups I think it's OK. I don't think users will like it if they're forced to ignore them.
15:11:26 <clokep_work> (And local changes to those tags would still attempt to be propagated back to the server, or no?)
15:11:40 <flo> the problem is it's very hard to distinguish between relevant and irrelevant server groups
15:12:31 <flo> I don't know. If you have a list of tags, what do you propagate to the server? Create a group for each on the server, and copy the buddy in each on the server? :-S
15:13:34 <clokep_work> Well wouldn't most of those tags be only for the contact and not for the buddy? :_/
15:13:55 <flo> then you wouldn't propagate anything
15:14:18 <flo> how do you know if the user intended to put a tag on the buddy rather than on the contact?
15:15:55 <clokep_work> True.
15:16:11 <clokep_work> Unless you ask to move it from the group that's from a particular server to another one.
15:17:11 <flo> the dialog asking that would be "random nonsense random nonsense .....? [Yes] [no]" ;)
15:17:36 <clokep_work> Yes. I'm confused just thinking about it. :(
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15:19:13 <flo> I'm not sure of how we can ask users which group they want to see without putting a dialog in the way
15:19:44 <clokep_work> What about in the account options?
15:19:49 <clokep_work> By default show them all.
15:20:10 <flo> I think either we:
15:20:10 <flo> 1. Ask with a dialog in the way.
15:20:11 <flo> 2. Decide all server groups are irrelevant by default, and let the user find a dialog to configure which one should be shown.
15:20:11 <flo> 3. Crappy: let the user [never] find the dialog to hide the nonsense tags.
15:20:15 <clokep_work> But you can go in and deselect some. (and put a paragraph saying "Buddies from unselected groups will be put into the "Other contacts" category.")
15:22:01 <flo> deselect from where? How do we make that discoverable?
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15:24:13 <clokep_work> Deselect froma list in the account options, Idk if it's exactly discoverable though.
15:24:26 <flo> how is it related to accounts?
15:24:39 <clokep_work> Each account has a list of groups.
15:24:53 <flo> idea: put an [X] icon on group names, at the end of the line, similar to what we have on tabs, aligned with the "start chat" bubble.
15:25:02 <flo> the tooltip text would be "Hide this group"
15:25:23 <flo> clicking it would hide the group from the buddy list and display all the included contacts in the "other contacts" group.
15:25:36 <clokep_work> I like that for discoverability, but we'll definitely need to add somethign to the FAQ about how to get that group back. ;)
15:25:39 <flo> the first time, it would popup a dialog explaining that and offering to cancel.
15:25:58 <flo> "Do not ask next time" would be checked by default
15:26:28 <flo> the context menu of any group would contain a "Manage groups" item opening a dialog where all groups can be checked/unchecked
15:27:01 <clokep_work> Sounds good.
15:27:30 <clokep_work> What if I want to see my "Buddies" from account1 in the real group, but have my "Buddies" from account2 go to "Other contacts"? :-D
15:27:54 <flo> you write an add-on
15:28:28 <flo> and it will be a though one to write. Probably need a protocol override to wrap all buddy creations :-P
15:30:55 <clokep_work> Haha. OK :)
15:31:13 <clokep_work> Just wanted to bring up the point, I don't think I need that.
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15:35:22 * flo wonders if it's possible to release 0.3 in less than 3 months
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15:35:50 * clokep_work goes to look at the feature list.
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15:36:45 <flo> from the roadmap we still need the buddy icons, the UI for the tags (what we were discussing), the systray icon (and more generaly OS integration work), and (maybe) some password manager work and some work on rich text messages.
15:36:51 <flo> and finish the contacts
15:37:00 <flo> then there are all the blockers on bugzilla
15:37:03 <flo> + a better twitter UI
15:37:46 <clokep_work> Yeah I kind of stopped the rich text work. :(
15:37:50 <flo> we also need a localizable website
15:38:01 <clokep_work> This release is supposed to use toolkit password manager?
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15:39:51 <flo> it's supposed to at least not store passwords in plain text any more
15:40:28 <flo> it probably won't use the password manager which has an SQLite schema really oriented toward website passwords, but it will use the encryption stuff
15:40:28 <clokep_work> Just base64 them, it'll be fine. ;)
15:40:44 <flo> nah, the user should be able to use a master password
15:40:55 <clokep_work> Ah, true.
15:41:08 <flo> and by default we encrypt using the empty string as a password
15:41:20 <clokep_work> Thunderbird might have a different scheme to use? Or is it pretty much the same?
15:41:30 <clokep_work> It's all based on URIs actually, nvm.
15:41:35 <flo> I don't know what it does at all
15:41:41 <flo> ah ok
15:42:20 <clokep_work> So it'll do imap://clokep@blah.tld as the "URL" and then clokep as the user and foo as the password.
15:42:21 <clokep_work> I think.
15:42:36 <flo> we can hack that
15:42:42 <flo> using the prpl id as the protocol
15:42:49 <flo> but does it really make sense?
15:43:44 <clokep_work> Can't you just use prpl-id as the URL? (I mean isn't the URL just a unique identifier to separate when you have the same username on multiple sites/accounts?)
15:43:48 <flo> prpl-irc://clokep@irc.mozilla.org      prpl-aim://instantbird etc...
15:44:14 <clokep_work> Right, but why not just |prpl-irc|clokep|<password>| ?
15:44:23 <clokep_work> Isn't that unique from the first two columns?
15:44:53 <flo> you have the same password on freenode?
15:45:11 <clokep_work> Oops, you're right. :)
15:45:26 <clokep_work> I was only thinking of accounts that have a unified system (AIM, YIM, etc.)
15:45:36 <clokep_work> Poor example of using IRC then on my part hahah.
15:45:40 * flo wonders why he has over 400 places.sqlite-<number>.corrupt files in a Firefox profile
15:47:19 <flo> the main SQL table for the password manager is:
15:47:20 <flo> CREATE TABLE moz_logins (id                 INTEGER PRIMARY KEY,hostname           TEXT NOT NULL,httpRealm          TEXT,formSubmitURL      TEXT,usernameField      TEXT NOT NULL,passwordField      TEXT NOT NULL,encryptedUsername  TEXT NOT NULL,encryptedPassword  TEXT NOT NULL,guid               TEXT,encType            INTEGER, timeCreated INTEGER, timeLastUsed INTEGER, timePasswordChanged INTEGER, timesUsed INTEGER);
15:47:26 <flo> that doesn't seem to make much sense for us
15:48:19 <clokep_work> No, it does not. Could you check the Thunderbird one too? I'm not sure if you use it.
15:49:15 <flo> where's the thunderbird profile hidden? :)
15:49:43 <flo> it's either not in a folder called "Thunderbird", or not in the same folder as the profile of Instantbird, Firefox, BlueGriffon, ...
15:49:45 <clokep_work> Instead of Mozilla/Firefox, it's just under Thunderbird
15:49:53 <clokep_work> (o_O)
15:50:20 <flo> "Mozilla" contains only an "Extensions" folder for add-ons that work on all XUL applications at once (DOMi, venkman, ...)
15:50:28 <clokep_work> ~/Library/Thunderbird/Profiles/<Profile name>/  or ~/Library/Application Support/Thunderbird/Profiles/<Profile name>/ 
15:50:44 <flo> thanks
15:50:48 <clokep_work> According to MozillaZine. ;)
15:51:09 <flo> I'm not sure why it's in Library/Thunderbird instead of Library/Application Support/<app name>/ :)
15:51:51 <clokep_work> Idk. I know for Windows its <home dir>/AppData/Thunderbird instead of <home dir>/AppData/Mozilla/Thunderbird, always confuses me. :(
15:51:59 <flo> the schema is the same
15:52:32 <flo> except if it has changed in Thunderbird >3 (the last version I used was 3.0)
15:53:11 <clokep_work> It hasn't AFAIK.
15:54:20 <flo> INSERT INTO "moz_logins" VALUES(3,'imap://imap.gmail.com','imap://imap.gmail.com',NULL,'','','<encrypted username>','<encrypted password>','{729fe207-<...>-36c964be1324}',1);
15:54:26 <flo> (for an example of the content)
15:55:21 <clokep_work> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XPCOM_Interface_Reference/nsILoginManager might be helpful. :)
15:56:06 <flo> If I remember well, the technical parts weren't as difficult as deciding how many migration paths we want to support, and if we remove existing plain text passwords found in the profile or not
15:56:31 <clokep_work> Mmmm, we had a long discussion about that over the summer.
15:57:49 <flo> I'm not sure we reached any decision in bug 434
15:57:52 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=434 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Use toolkit password manager
15:58:09 <flo> but anyway, that bug is not what's going to slow us down on the release path :). It isn't scary enough :)
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16:01:16 <flo> waynenguyen: thanks! we are better here to discuss instantbird-development-related things :)
16:03:04 <clokep_work> Oh, flo while you're here and I'm thinking about it, proxy settings for JavaScript accounts, am I supposed to just use the standard proxy or do we want each account to be able ot have one?
16:03:20 <flo> just use the standard proxy
16:03:32 <clokep_work> OK. :) Makes it easy then.
16:03:39 <flo> don't forget the PREFER_SOCKS flag for any non-http request :)
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16:06:47 <clokep_work> OK, but that won't be handled by the socket itself, it's going to be passed a proxyInfo object. :)
16:07:17 <flo> isn't getting a proxyInfo object automatically the socket object's job? :)
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16:09:27 <clokep_work> I think that might make it too specific if I have it automatically grab the proxy, idk if some protocols don't work through proxies, etc.?
16:09:59 <flo> make the proxy object an optional argument then
16:10:12 <flo> if you pass null -> automatic proxy, if you pass a proxyInfo object, it will be used
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16:10:39 <clokep_work> That works. :)
16:11:02 <clokep_work> (Or possibly null, an integer (i.e. a set of proxy flags) or a proxyInfo object
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16:11:52 <flo> what about something simple first, and complicating things later only if needed? :)
16:12:04 <clokep_work> OK. :)
16:12:16 <clokep_work> I don't like the "Connect" method right now, it takes too many parameters.
16:12:38 <clokep_work> Does it make sense when you declare a socket to make it binary or not? Or is that a "connect" thing?
16:13:37 <flo> I was going to ask what the binary thing was for
16:16:12 <flo> does it make sense to have the listen ability on the same object?
16:16:45 <flo> if the answer is no, you can get rid of the "connect" method and just give the arguments to the constructor
16:17:03 <flo> (it would make inheritance more painful though)
16:17:52 <clokep_work> I could not put it on a constructor and just leave it as a flag inside the object maybe that you would set yourself after making the object (or if you make a constructor)?
16:17:59 <flo> there's a typo on this line: http://hg.instantbird.org/experiments/file/d4326febed80/modules/mozSocket.jsm#l182
16:18:02 <clokep_work> Yes it makes sense to have it on the same object I think.
16:18:56 <clokep_work> Since you just create a new socket tell it to listen, but then it connects automatically, etc.
16:19:55 <flo> onTimeOutHelper can go away if you use .bind() I think
16:20:09 <clokep_work> I think so too. I didn't look into thta yet. :)
16:20:19 <clokep_work> I want to add a data queue also so you don't have to worry about flooding.
16:20:30 <clokep_work> (An optional one.)
16:22:01 <clokep_work> But I dislike the "binary mode" flag and the "delimiter or segment size" flag on the connect. I see those as part of the socket object, not as part of the connection?
16:22:48 <clokep_work> and aISSSL needs to become "aSecurity" or something so it can accept "ssl" "starttls" or... I think there's another one too.
16:24:17 <flo> I don't understand this: http://hg.instantbird.org/experiments/file/d4326febed80/modules/mozSocket.jsm#l192
16:25:00 <clokep_work> Pretty much ignore anything that happens in binary mode right now. ;)
16:25:46 <flo> did this work in chatzilla for file transfers?
16:26:41 <clokep_work> That's a combination of CZ, msnmsgr and my code.
16:26:59 <clokep_work> But the binary stuff is untested / kind of sketchy.
16:28:22 <clokep_work> I need to slice the data that's being stored though in some way?
16:28:29 <clokep_work> I think. I'm not sure.
16:28:52 <clokep_work> http://hg.instantbird.org/experiments/file/9c6f5523c206/modules/mozSocket.jsm#l183 was the original
16:30:27 <flo> I'm not sure that works if you have some \0 in the data stream
16:31:04 <clokep_work> Which part of it? Storing it into a string?
16:31:14 <waynenguyen> I am still unclear about the account import wizard project. Does it mean that I can choose to import contacts from, for example, AIM to Windows Live Messenger?
16:31:23 <flo> the .readBytes call
16:32:00 <clokep_work> flo: I'd think that that's safe from \0 but I don't know for sure. I need to try sending some binary data. :-X
16:32:09 <clokep_work> It's on my to do list to send like a small image to myself. :)
16:32:28 <flo> the question is: can JS strings contain that value?
16:32:57 <clokep_work> There must be some way to store it. :-D
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16:39:07 <clokep_work> The account import would be from AIM or WLM to Instantbird (if flo isn't already talking to you about this.)
16:42:26 <waynenguyen> hasn't it been done already? Because I don't see that problem with current version? Sorry if this is a silly question.
16:42:56 <flo> "the general idea is to have Instantbird detect all the IM clients installed on the system and import the settings, so that the user doesn't have to reconfigure anything that had already been configured in some other software when trying Instantbird"
16:43:28 <flo> do you currently see Instantbird detecting anything from the system where it's installed?
16:43:45 <waynenguyen> no
16:44:41 <clokep_work> Something like Thunderbird's import wizard from Outlook pretty much. :)
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16:45:35 <waynenguyen> so this mean if I have multiples accounts on AIM or WLM, all of their contacts will be imported?
16:45:56 <waynenguyen> to Instantbird
16:46:29 <flo> the accounts should be imported. The contacts are stored on the server, you have them if you connect the accounts
16:48:00 <waynenguyen> ok I got it now, thanks :)
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17:33:44 <Mic> hej hej
17:34:23 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/414716c010e5 - Florian Qu├Ęze - Display the status type in the second line of extended contacts. Reduce code duplication in status handling. Fire signals correctly during unknown->offline status changes.
17:41:50 * Mic likes http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/414716c010e5#l8.57
17:42:09 <flo> ah? :)
17:42:19 <Mic> It's nice and short
17:42:34 <Mic> no return, no brackets, no whatever
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17:53:49 <clokep_work> Nice to get rid of all those hug if-blocks. :)
17:54:58 <flo> and the duplicated STATUS_* between purpleICoreService and imIStatusInfo
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17:59:37 <flo> does this make sense? https://wiki.instantbird.org/Mailing_lists
18:01:39 <clokep_work> I think so. :)
18:02:19 * clokep_work tries not to complain about Google Groups. ;)
18:03:10 <flo> any better idea that doesn't involve configuring crappy stuff on our servers? :)
18:04:48 <clokep_work> Aka any better idea that doesn't involve NNTP? No. :)
18:04:54 <clokep_work> I'm fine w/ Google Groups for the most part.
18:05:02 <flo> and doesn't involved mailman ;)
18:05:29 <clokep_work> Fair enough. :)
18:07:18 <clokep_work> Could also do an Instantbird check-ins list if you wanted.
18:07:39 <flo> sure, if there's an easy way to do that :)
18:07:53 <flo> it's already available as RSS, so I'm not sure it's all that useful
18:09:37 <flo> I haven't changed the contact@ib.org redirection yet
18:09:57 <flo> I want to add something the ib.com page saying the message will be publicly readable and no private information should be included
18:10:22 <clokep_work> That's a good idea.
18:16:15 <flo> http://www.instantbird.com/about.html not sure if that's OK or way too long.
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18:18:02 <clokep_work> Probably fine although I see hanging "1" at the very top of the page.
18:18:31 <flo> reload :)
18:18:39 <clokep_work> Yup, looks good now. :)
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18:23:43 <clokep_work> So I guess when people email contact@instantbird.org, we should make sure to reply to them as well as the list?
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19:14:28 <flo> clokep_work: yes. It's an issue we already have by the way :)
19:14:40 <flo> contact@instantbird.org is currently handled on instantbird@googlegroups.com
19:16:15 <flo> I wondered whether I should just open that google group to the public or create a new one, but I finally decided a new one was better because it wasn't really acceptable to make publicly available the messages sent to the list while some privacy may have been expected by the senders
19:16:56 <clokep_work> Ah, I see. :)
19:17:05 <clokep_work> You don't get much spam I hope?
19:17:14 <flo> We do get spam :(
19:21:52 <clokep_work> Google Groups in general tend to get a lot of spam.
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19:26:36 <flo> Good evening :)
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20:10:44 <clokep_work> flo: I think you're right that a null character being passed there won't be good, I think I need to use js typed arrays?
20:13:01 <Mic|away> waynenguyen is interested in the migration/import project?
20:13:13 * Mic|away is now known as Mic
20:14:24 <clokep_work> Possibly? His host was from a nus.edu.sg ;)
20:17:59 <Mic> gtg
20:18:02 <Mic> have a nice day
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21:50:18 <flo> clokep: I'm really not sure. We/you should probably try and see what the result is, or ask in #developers
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23:33:41 <clokep> I figured it out flo. ;) Need to do readAsBytes or whatever and then dump that into a typed array I think is the best way to do it.
23:34:59 * flo suspects another "best way" to handle binary streams is to provide the output stream (file, cache entry, whatever...) where the data should go
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23:37:49 <clokep> That only works for file transfers.
23:37:58 <clokep> Some protocols are binary I believe.
23:40:37 <flo> uh, yeah :)
23:40:39 <flo> sorry
23:40:59 <flo> I tried the attachment in bug 634
23:41:02 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=634 nor, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, Richtext formatting for outgoing messages
23:41:17 <clokep> I think it'd be worth eventually making a "Socket to file" object eventually though.
23:41:22 <clokep> Did it even apply? :-X
23:41:25 <flo> seems very work-in-progress-y
23:41:39 <clokep> It is definitely work in progress-y.
23:41:41 <flo> yes, it applied
23:41:54 <clokep> It works sort of. :-/ I got a lot of random line breaks being sent at the end though.
23:42:15 <flo> I was wondering if you expected other use cases for the richtextbox binding
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23:42:44 <flo> not having the toolbar as part of the conversation binding seems a bit annoying to have shortcut for emoticon insertion there
23:43:15 <flo> except if inserting emoticons is a feature that applies too for other potential consumer of the binding :)
23:43:46 <clokep> I was originally hoping to make more of a vague richtextbox binding...since no one seems to have?
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23:43:55 <clokep> But I think it's too much abstraction and kind of a PITA.
23:43:59 <clokep> So probably better not to. :)
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23:48:01 <clokep> I was mor ein the stage of "let me get this working" than "let me get this working nicely" :)
23:48:23 <clokep> (IF you want to work on it -- feel free to unassign me, the UI will take forever for me, I don't know XUL that well.)
23:49:08 <flo> if you don't finish it I'll probably take it in the next 3 months
23:49:32 <flo> I was just mostly looking at whatever work we have left for 0.3 and looking at what's already done/reusable