#instantbird log on 12 29 2010

All times are UTC.

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21:14:46 <hicham> seems like the blocked thing is coming from libpurple
21:15:26 <hicham> pidgin-2.7.7 shows my msn contacts as being blocked :(
21:15:36 <hicham> let's file a bug upstream
22:02:05 <flo> hicham: are you sure they aren't really blocked on the server?
22:03:15 <hicham> flo : of course I am sure
22:03:33 <hicham> flo : those are people I will never block :)
22:03:58 <flo> will never block *intentionally* ;)
22:06:27 <hicham> flo : and I am able to talk to them :)
22:06:46 <flo> do they see you as online?
22:07:11 <hicham> I don't know about that
22:07:26 <hicham> but I still see "Block", when right clicking them
22:14:56 <hicham> flo : what do you think ?
22:15:43 <flo> you see "Blocked    Yes"?
22:28:19 <The_Tick> whee
22:31:12 <hicham> yes
22:31:53 <The_Tick> what about in kopete?
22:32:24 <hicham> kopete doesn't use purple AFAIK
22:32:31 <The_Tick> exactly
22:32:39 <The_Tick> rule out libpurple
22:32:59 <hicham> how is that relevant to this channel ?
22:33:09 <The_Tick> well since you are so convinced it's libpurple
22:33:11 <flo> hicham: to see if it's caused by libpurple or not
22:33:12 <The_Tick> and not your account
22:33:23 <hicham> flo : ok
22:33:23 <The_Tick> but you have not used a client which doesn't use libpurple
22:33:33 <The_Tick> or you could just use the official client
22:37:06 <flo> The_Tick: A few days (weeks? :-S) ago, you were surprised that we didn't seem to care too much about whether our JS protocol plugins would be upstreamable into libpurple.
22:37:23 <The_Tick> I was surprised you guys thought it was hard
22:37:42 <The_Tick> bear in mind the devs on libpurple I talked to didn't really seem interested in seeing a twitter prpl
22:38:01 <The_Tick> but they aren't opposed to prpls as long as you stick around to maintain them
22:38:08 <The_Tick> I don't know what they'd do about a js plugin though
22:38:21 <flo> well, the things I've tried to upstream fell in 2 categories: the obvious bugfixes (those are usually accepted, with more or less latency) and the real changes (when I tried to propose anything, my messages were simply ignored)
22:38:44 <The_Tick> I don't have any experience with their mailing list
22:38:45 <The_Tick> just irc
22:38:57 <The_Tick> the other thing I have that's different
22:39:08 <The_Tick> is one of the adium devs was also a committer on pidgin
22:39:26 <The_Tick> and essentially adium was the gaim/pidgin of the mac
22:39:38 <flo> was he a commiter on pidgin before working on Adium, or gained that because of his work?
22:39:45 <The_Tick> because of his work
22:40:10 <The_Tick> they just got below 100 patch tickets
22:40:14 <The_Tick> so they are working on patches
22:40:19 <The_Tick> I think they have the problemyou guys have
22:40:27 <The_Tick> in that they really don't have many working on the project
22:40:38 <flo> I know that
22:41:14 <flo> but I suspect they actually have another additional problem: lots of people in charge on making the decision (with some stop energy among them), and not a single leader who can just plain decide something
22:41:23 <The_Tick> nah
22:41:28 <The_Tick> unless it's a huge change
22:42:28 <flo> lots if time I've seen people (external potential new contributors) suggest doing something (actually volunteering to do it), and they got discouraging replies from respected commiters
22:42:59 <The_Tick> such as?
22:43:16 <flo> doing nightlies with buildbot for example
22:43:25 <flo> some crash reporting work
22:43:40 <The_Tick> nightlies means infrastructure to maintain
22:43:44 <The_Tick> same with crash reporting
22:43:45 <flo> sure.
22:44:02 <flo> they had people volunteering to do it, offering the servers
22:44:03 <The_Tick> they have enough shit to handle on infrastucture I think
22:44:10 <The_Tick> ya, and then when the server dies
22:44:18 <The_Tick> or that person in 4 months realizes they don't have time
22:44:20 <flo> that's what they replied, yes
22:44:27 <The_Tick> we did that on adium
22:44:42 <The_Tick> the person who volunteered the infrastructure never updated the bug reporter to be useful
22:44:48 <The_Tick> when he had a fight with his room mate
22:44:51 <The_Tick> he lost his free hosting
22:44:59 <The_Tick> they have good reasons to say what they're saying
22:45:15 <hicham> I think ideally purplexpcom should be upstream, so that all mozilla based apps can use purple
22:45:17 <The_Tick> in those instances
22:45:33 <flo> hicham: not possible because of the GPL.
22:45:47 <The_Tick> oh it's mpl?
22:46:03 <flo> The_Tick: mozilla is, and won't accept any GPL'ed code
22:46:14 <The_Tick> which is stupid
22:46:27 <flo> "they have good reasons" ;)
22:46:35 <The_Tick> if the code sucks, tat's one thing
22:46:39 <The_Tick> or if the idea sucks, sure
22:46:47 <hicham> flo : i meant upstream in purple, not in mozilla
22:46:47 <The_Tick> but if it's just licensing, then that's just idiocy
22:46:57 <The_Tick> hicham: how is that relevant to purple though? :)
22:47:08 <The_Tick> if you can answer that
22:47:13 <The_Tick> you know how to submit it to them
22:47:39 <The_Tick> flo: pidgin also has a problem of people sticking around forever
22:47:43 <The_Tick> when they should disappear
22:48:03 <The_Tick> so you may be seeing some of that as well
22:48:13 <flo> very possible
22:48:53 <flo> don't get me wrong. I've sometimes got very helpful replies when asking things to pidgin developers. I'm just seeing them as very resistant to changes.
22:49:26 <The_Tick> changes mean more work
22:49:27 <hicham> they want to stick to the "GTK way"
22:49:41 <The_Tick> but if it's just a prpl
22:49:53 <flo> their policy of not changing any API before the next major version which won't happen before an unknown date (which may not be so far currently by the way for 3.0) makes it almost impossible to hope having an unpatched libpurple
22:49:56 <The_Tick> then why not upstream it, especially if you're going to be around?
22:50:08 <The_Tick> flo: that policy makes adium possible
22:50:34 <The_Tick> not having that policy makes dealing with libpurple a pain in the ass
22:50:50 <flo> The_Tick: I'm not saying that policy is stupid. They have their reasons that I do understand. I'm just saying it's not appropriate for our needs.
22:50:54 <The_Tick> having it means that you know for certain that during the whole 2.x range, that you don't have to worry about it
22:51:03 <The_Tick> then don't use libpurple
22:51:24 <The_Tick> you either need to use libpurple and should like how they set things up
22:51:28 <The_Tick> or you don't
22:51:48 <The_Tick> but that's a fundamental rule that I think is essential for applications using their library
22:51:57 <The_Tick> if your issue is with the no release dates
22:52:11 <The_Tick> that's just how most projects I know of outside of bsd and mozilla projects work
22:54:44 <hicham> if you course, if you manage to merge your changes without affecting the API, maybe they will accept some day
22:54:46 <flo> I don't see things as black and white as "we should like it or not use it" ;). There are things about it that I don't like and would rather avoid, and some that are valuable to us and we use.
22:55:35 <flo> as I said their are things that we successfully upstream, the obvious bugfixes (well, obvious once the fix is know of course ;) especially.
22:55:41 <flo> that doesn't mean we have to agree with the whole vision.
22:55:55 <The_Tick> I just don't agree with that
22:56:04 <The_Tick> if you keep that mentality then ya, libpurple is hard
22:56:08 <flo> which part?
22:56:29 <The_Tick> the whole bit
22:56:37 <The_Tick> if you don't understand the reasons behind the mentality
22:56:43 <The_Tick> and agree to them
22:56:47 <The_Tick> then yes, you're not going to likeit
22:57:05 <The_Tick> that's true for anything
22:58:02 <flo> I may also understand and not agree, which doesn't mean I don't respect it (usually I have a lot of respect for people giving away their work for free, whether I agree with the ideas or not).
22:58:21 <The_Tick> I don't understnad then
23:00:24 <hicham> flo : amsn showed them blocked also :\
23:01:32 <The_Tick> amsn is not based on libprpl
23:01:43 <The_Tick> it's your account
23:02:59 <flo> The_Tick: is there anything I should explain better, or should we rather focus on things on which we agree? ;)
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23:08:48 <The_Tick> I'm not really sure what else there is to talk about
23:10:54 <flo> I think you showed interesting mockups and had interesting ideas about how the buddy list could be replaced
23:11:08 <The_Tick> I just think the bl isn't a good idea
23:11:13 <The_Tick> from a ui standpoint
23:11:59 <flo> I tend to think it's a poor UI because it attempts to do several things with a single UI, which cannot fit for all these needs at once
23:12:37 <The_Tick> with adium for years
23:12:44 <The_Tick> people have come around asking about how to better hide it
23:13:02 <The_Tick> which to me screams it's just a bad idea
23:13:19 <The_Tick> we have better ui's for place holders
23:13:25 <The_Tick> contacts are really just bookmarks for people
23:13:34 <The_Tick> so why not treat them like bookmarks? :)
23:14:18 <flo> if you look at the statuses, they are also a source of information
23:14:28 <The_Tick> but is that useful information?
23:14:35 <The_Tick> 9/10 of the time, not really
23:14:39 <flo> depends on what the users is trying to do
23:14:50 <The_Tick> why does it matter though? :)
23:14:54 <flo> I see the needs as:
23:15:54 <flo> very common: the user attempts to start a conversation, and has >95% chances of starting a conversation similar to a common previous one. -> seems like bookmarks/history, we should leverage that data to show likely actions and provide helpful completions.
23:16:40 <flo> less common, but real: the user is bored, is trying to find someone to talk to, and scans the list of all his "buddies", trying to see if there's someone to talk to.
23:17:21 <flo> very uncommon, but really useful when needed: the user is managing the list, cleaning up some mess, adding aliases, changing the groups/tags, adding/removing/blocking people.
23:18:26 <flo> (there's also the case of someone trying to find some information in a (recent) conversation with someone, but I think that can mostly be merged with the common case of starting a conversation)
23:20:22 <The_Tick> but none of that requires the buddy list
23:20:40 <flo> the buddy list as currently know is poor for all of these 3 cases
23:20:43 <flo> *known
23:21:09 <The_Tick> I think we also have to consider that people mostly talk to the same people
23:21:14 <The_Tick> and rarely talk to some of the others
23:21:22 <The_Tick> but may have a large amount of people they just don't talk to
23:21:24 <The_Tick> that they have added
23:21:40 <flo> yes, if we have a good history database, we can probably guess who are the 5-6 contacts that matter
23:21:54 <The_Tick> you don't need to
23:21:55 <The_Tick> :)
23:22:24 <flo> and the other 150+ people are some people they would reply to, or ask very specific questions to, but not talk about random things to them
23:23:05 <The_Tick> I think people know who those folks are
23:23:19 <The_Tick> so you don't need some advanced thing tojust add to a special area
23:23:55 <clokep> I think flo is suggesting having them bubble to the top automatically instead of forcing users to get through a set up period.
23:24:11 <flo> yes and no. They know who matters in the list, but not necessarily why it's important for them to be put in a special area.
23:24:36 <The_Tick> clokep: what he's suggesting depends on log file sizes
23:24:42 <The_Tick> what if the user doesn't use logging? :)
23:25:09 <flo> The_Tick: do you have estimations of how many users would disable the logs?
23:25:27 <The_Tick> nope
23:26:00 <flo> the users we target with autoadaptative systems are those who will most likely never touch any setting
23:26:06 <clokep> The vast majority of users of programs tend to /not/ change any default options.
23:26:23 <clokep> And the ones that change options should be smart enough to figure out how to set up other stuff manually.
23:26:27 <flo> those who touch the settings can adapt the things themselves
23:27:27 <flo> we would need a way to make "my new boss" or "that person with whom I fell in love this morning" go to the top of the list instantly anyway
23:27:39 <The_Tick> ok, that's a good way to look at it
23:27:58 <clokep> Oh damn, I hate when I fall in love with people and need to talk to them all the time suddenly. :P
23:28:15 <The_Tick> so I always thought a bookmark bar kind of thing would be a good use of space
23:28:26 <The_Tick> simple, easy, people already know how it works
23:29:11 <flo> clokep: it's even worse if you need them to talk to you, and stupidly stares at them in the list hoping a conversation will pop up :-D
23:29:36 <clokep> Hahaha.
23:29:38 <clokep> Good luck.
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23:30:51 <flo> The_Tick: I think it's great to keep track of the status of the few individuals that matter, and as a way to get back quickly into a previous conversation
23:32:56 <flo> another (maybe not so good) idea I've had on this topic is that if we are likely to talk to these individuals when they become available if we are currently available too, maybe the application should just open the conversations automatically so that we no longer have to track it ourselves
23:43:55 <The_Tick> I don't know about that one
23:44:26 <flo> we need add-ons to experiment the funny ideas before really considering them for inclusion ;)
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23:47:16 <The_Tick> I'm not that interested :)
23:48:05 <flo> (just to be clear) I wasn't suggesting you do that specific one.
23:48:50 <flo> but if you want to experiment with your own fun ideas, don't hesitate (and ask for help, especially if our current API sucks around the places you need to hack)
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