#instantbird log on 12 07 2010

All times are UTC.

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10:52:44 <Mic> hello
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14:03:22 * Mic just closed his Amazon account giving WikiLeaks as reason ;)
14:20:11 * tymerkaev agree with Mic
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14:41:44 <flo> I've played a bit this morning with small conversation windows.
14:42:00 <flo> I'm no longer sure we should get rid of the "Always show the tab bar" option
14:42:30 <flo> when detaching a single conversation to a window and making that window very small, the tab bar is useless and a significant waste (compared to the size of the whole window)
14:43:24 <flo> maybe we can still get rid of that setting by auto-hiding the tab bar if there's a single tab and the window is very small, and preventing new tabs from appearing in an existing tiny window.
14:44:21 <flo> I'm not sure if that's a good anticipation of users' desire or a strange complexification of the behavior that would get in the way.
14:44:43 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 610 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
14:44:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=610 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, /me in notification windows
14:48:48 <Mic> flo: someone suggested we should use tabs in titlebar btw
14:49:03 <Mic> I think it was you, sabret00the_ ?
14:49:12 <clokep> flo: I think that's a strange complexification. :)
14:49:44 <Mic> If the tabs would be either in the title bar or no tabs and a normal titlebar we wouldn't lose anything in any case?
14:49:45 <flo> clokep: have you ever used such a small window?
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15:00:41 <Mic> How small actually?
15:01:58 <flo> small enough that the tab bar isn't usable and the status bar is a pain
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15:03:31 <flo> something like: http://queze.net/goinfre/tiny-window.png
15:04:08 <Mic> Not even the simple theme is suitable for this :(
15:05:32 <flo> It's possible I pushed the resizing a bit too far ;)
15:05:48 <flo> but you get the idea, a size where every single pixel counts
15:07:03 <Mic> yes
15:07:23 <flo> I'm not sure of how many users actually do that
15:07:45 <flo> I suspect there will be a lot more if we ever add an "always on top" option
15:08:47 <flo> and there are also those users that put the conversation (and even buddy list!) window full screen...
15:09:06 <Mic> Have you seen this actually?
15:09:10 <flo> I've seen someone using WLM last week
15:09:17 <flo> full screen buddy list
15:09:22 <flo> full screen conversation window
15:09:51 <flo> both of these window with a customized background color and image (and some of the most horrible taste possible to do that...)
15:09:54 <Mic> A few days I ago I argued with clokep about an Instantbird application button and there was the idea to hide the maximize button because it's more or less useless there and saves space
15:10:01 <flo> and a browser (I think it was IE) with facebook chat.
15:10:10 <flo> alt-tabbing between those 3 windows
15:10:35 <Mic> The latter is ok, in my opininon
15:10:51 <Mic> Having to switch between ctrl+tab and tab+tab is a bigger problem in my opinion
15:11:00 <flo> I was 5 meters behind, thinking "wow, if someone told me that can happen, I would probably not have believed it"
15:12:20 <flo> the conversation window was using the full screen, and the text of the messages was barely readable (small red comics sans ms above a pink background I think)
15:14:14 <Mic> Now you're making things up, aren't you? :P
15:14:36 <Mic> No, I've seen such customisation as well
15:14:51 <Mic> And some people even sending their fonts and colors to others :(
15:15:13 <flo> after thinking a bit about it, I thought: we really *need* personna before we can even show Instantbird to these people
15:15:55 <Mic> If you want to target those people: yes
15:16:17 <flo> I think we do
15:17:41 <flo> (and we need twitter for the more technology oriented people who are likely to install Instantbird on the computer of these users)
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15:22:14 <Mic> Maybe we should include a theme with colorful animated gradients :P
15:22:17 <Mic> bbl
15:25:36 <flo> :)
15:36:52 <sabret00the_> Yep Mic, it was me that suggested we use tabs in the titlebar
15:36:57 <flo> aha, it's the patch from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=600433 that breaks our mac nightlies!
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15:48:41 <clokep> flo: No. I've never used such a small window.
15:49:00 <flo> clokep: so the behavior would not be confusing, you would just *never* notice it
15:49:05 <clokep> :)
15:49:29 <flo> the current pref is confusing because you can wonder what it's for and that's a waste of time ;)
15:50:46 <clokep> I think it should just be get rid of the tabbar if you don't use tabbed windows?
15:52:16 <flo> we should do that automatically and disable the pref checkbox when tabs are disabled
15:52:48 <flo> but the pref is useful for people who sometimes detach a conversation to a separate window, but still want to use tabs in the first window
15:54:03 <clokep> flo: The patch that went in to change the size of the mac splitter...?
15:54:07 <clokep> Did that affect windows at all?
15:54:18 <flo> it shouldn't
15:54:19 <flo> why?
15:54:34 <flo> the splitter should probably be reduced there too by the way
15:54:51 <clokep> I think it looks strange now...
15:54:59 <clokep> One second.
15:55:38 <clokep> (It might also be Vertical Tabs doing it?)
15:56:06 <flo> Mic: I'm about to push 2 changesets. Should I push the string changes too or wait for use to further discuss what we want to do in that bug or another bug about the tabs preferences?
15:56:16 <flo> *us
15:56:47 <clokep> flo: https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Splitter.png
15:57:23 <flo> you have a customized show nick? :)
15:57:51 <clokep> flo: Yes, it looked really bad with the simple theme. I have the patch on my other computer, but didn't think it was feasible to include at all.
15:58:53 <flo> maybe we should add the HTML markup around nicks by default, and let message themes include something for it or not in their CSS
15:59:45 <flo> clokep: is that screenshot with the default theme?
16:00:02 <clokep> flo: Yes, default theme, but with Vertical Tabs, but I'm 99% sure I don't touch that splitter.
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16:00:46 <flo> your screenshot looks as if there was a -moz-appearance: none on the textbox, but in the patch it's clearly inside an #ifdef XP_MACOSX block: https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/30e06bddc097
16:03:19 <clokep> Yes, it seems to be in ifdef XP_MACOSX...hmm...:-\
16:05:28 <clokep> I'll restart in safe mode, one second.
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16:07:50 <clokep> flo: https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Splitter-SafeMode.png
16:08:05 <clokep> Mic are you seeing anything like this on Windows? (Are you on the latest nightly?)
16:08:58 <flo> clokep: I've just upgraded my Windows nightly and it looks correct
16:09:11 <flo> the textbox has it's native (blue :-S) border
16:09:22 <clokep> Windows XP?
16:09:26 <flo> yes
16:09:45 <clokep> Could be a difference between XP & 7?
16:09:59 <flo> maybe
16:10:12 <flo> do you see this with a clean profile too?
16:10:28 <clokep> Bah now you're making me try difficult things. ;)
16:10:31 <clokep> Give me a minute.
16:10:32 <flo> someone should create an add-on "start with a clean profile" :)
16:11:14 <flo> clokep: you made me use Windows to verify, that was difficult. :-P
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16:12:27 <clokep> flo: Same thing with clean profile.
16:12:41 <clokep> Do you want another screenshot? ;) It looks the same.
16:13:31 <flo> tss
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16:14:31 <clokep> Is it something in the aero theme difference? I'm not sure exactly how all those if-defs work, etc.
16:15:14 <flo> isn't the file the same for aero?
16:15:37 <clokep> I'm not sure. :) Who else uses Windows here?
16:16:08 <clokep> (Also, re bug 609 I'm pretty sure I'm having a painting issue.)
16:16:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=609 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, New tab don't show up
16:16:13 * Mic , but I'd need to upgrade Ib and would lose some customized things
16:16:31 <clokep> I disabled d2d, I couldn't find the layers pref. :)
16:16:57 <clokep> Mic: Don't worry about it. :) (Unless you really want to download the zip and run that. ;))
16:17:25 <Mic> flo: I think it wouldn't really hurt to push the patch, since I have no idea how long it is before we change something there?
16:17:38 <flo> ok
16:18:11 <Mic> I mean in worst case we just have an extra changeset in the repository this way?
16:18:40 <clokep> Also flo I'm on 20101206041818, but that should include the update?
16:20:32 <clokep> flo: I'll take a look at my files and stuff about the textbox in a little while (working on something right now).
16:20:36 <clokep> You can go work on Twitter. ;)
16:24:26 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 611 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
16:24:29 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=611 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Handle the "blank slate" gracefully
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16:29:56 <flo> clokep: I'm afraid twitter will have to wait, I've got to go ;)
16:30:10 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 387 to FIXED.
16:30:15 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, 0.3a1, benediktp, RESO FIXED, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
16:30:45 <flo> Good evening :)
16:30:53 <Mic> Good evening
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16:32:01 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/63c39fefeaff - Florian Quèze - Fix ppc/i386 Mac universal build by locally backing out 885574b5c18c from bug 600433.
16:32:02 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/aaf9943749ab - Benedikt P. - Bug 387 - Make wording of 'Use separate windows..' setting less ambiguous. r=fqueze
16:32:03 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/a2687b36dadd - Florian Quèze - Auto-hide the status bar of conversation windows when the window's height is very small.
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16:50:00 <Mic> flo: I read a few sections of "Getting Real" and it seems like a good idea to have a closer look. Thanks for sharing
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17:21:27 <clokep> Mic: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Brainstorm:general_brainstorming#Contacts_-_.22level_of_interest.22 ;) Interesting idea, maybe incorporated into Buddy Status? :)
17:23:19 <Mic> I'll check that later (dinner)
17:24:28 <clokep> You wrote it. :)
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17:38:36 <clokep> I've updated a lot of https://wiki.instantbird.org/User:Clokep/Contributors_Blog_Entry if people want to look it over again. It might be a bad time to post it though (mid-December)?
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18:00:28 <Mic> bah, "Search keyword are intended to be unique" said someone on BMO. What a pity! It would be so nice if you could give the same keyword to several searchs and search google, bing, yahoo at the same time while opening the wikipedia article for the search term
18:01:55 <Mic> bah, "Search keyword are intended to be unique" said someone on BMO. What a pity! It would be so nice if you could give the same keyword to several searchs and search google, bing, yahoo at the same time while opening the corresponding wikipedia article
18:02:26 <Mic> ups, sorry. I was under the mistaken impression that I hadn't posted this yet
18:02:41 <Mic> Yes, the interest in contacts is a nice thing
18:04:53 <Mic> HTML on the wiki is impractical
18:04:53 <clokep> What?
18:05:52 <clokep> Yes, it is. :-\
18:05:55 <clokep> I used http://htmledit.squarefree.com/
18:06:59 <Mic> c/p to an html file on my desktop was good enough
18:07:23 <clokep> :)
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18:29:24 <Mic> I'm not so convinced of the posting proposal, shouldn't we try to make it really awesome (scnr) so people say "wow, I need to check that out?"
18:29:55 <Mic> Maybe having several parts, one related to bugfixing, one to new features, one for add-on contributions?
18:30:28 <clokep> Possible. I'm reading it over again right now, but mostly just grammar stuff.
18:30:35 <Mic> Spicing it up with a few images, e.g. one like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jigsaw.png
18:30:45 <clokep> Yes I think it needs images.
18:30:46 <Mic> And adding a big "Your extension" 
18:31:09 <Mic> on one of the pieces, maybe a bit elevated so it looks like there's one more piece going to be added in a moment?
18:31:42 <clokep> Splitting it up might be a good way to do it.
18:31:48 <clokep> Didn't want to make it too long.
18:32:13 <Mic> http://community.wikia.com/wiki/File:Squashed_bug_cartoon.jpg
18:32:29 <Mic> well, the images would need to be awesome though ;)
18:32:49 <Mic> Same style best, but I think we don't have the resources to do such a thing :(
18:33:49 <clokep> Resources to do what such a thing?
18:34:49 <Mic> Just having someone paint a nice picture or icon for a blog posting
18:36:00 <clokep> Oh. Yeah. :-\ I don't think so.
18:36:29 <clokep> What do you think of "We're eager to have new participants join us." is the "We're" OK?
18:43:23 <Mic> Meditate on this, I will ;)
18:43:24 <Mic> bbl
18:48:39 <clokep> Splitting it into sections might be good.
18:48:45 <clokep> Maybe even just splitting the list into three lists?
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19:19:32 <Mic> Yes, I meant moving parts of the list to different sections up there
19:20:06 <Mic> What is bugfixing? What are ideas for extensions? New features .., so on
19:20:25 <Mic> Would be easier to adress common questions to these categories then
19:20:49 <clokep> Wait. I think you're disagreeing w/ me.
19:22:11 <clokep> Hmm...OK.
19:22:24 <clokep> So jus tchanging the list to sections though, not actually including a definition for "bugfixing"?
19:23:23 <Mic> ok, let me be the idea guy once again :P
19:24:28 <Mic> We could have a three column body of the posting, with a related image spanning the column header, some descriptive text and the list with possible tasks below
19:24:56 <Mic> Maybe a "More..." link leading to the wiki article with the extension wishlist for one and something for the others
19:25:12 <clokep> I'm just confused at whether you want to split the list only or the entire article into three separate parts. ;)
19:25:44 <Mic> The one article with three sections, each having its own list of tasks
19:26:05 <Mic> + nice looking + awesome :P
19:26:42 <clokep> Right, right. :p
19:26:57 <clokep> I was debating about splitting it up into groups that have to do with each other (Conversation stuff, Buddy stuff, etc.)
19:27:25 <clokep> But maybe doing it by bugs vs. extensions vs. features might be better.
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20:12:56 <Mic> clokep: should we add bug 503 as well?
20:12:59 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Improving Sounds
20:13:04 <Mic> Would be something completely different
20:13:46 <Mic> Or bug 488 for someone talented with graphics?
20:13:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=488 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Missing Commonly Used Emoticon
20:14:46 <clokep> Added them.
20:20:35 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 612 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
20:20:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=612 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Status icon should display if the account of a conversation is connected or not
20:21:04 <Mic> This might be a duplicate but though
20:21:10 <Mic> -but
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20:24:03 <Mic> ah :S
20:24:07 <Mic> bug 520 ?
20:24:11 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=520 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Unable to tell if a MUC is connected
20:25:10 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com set the Resolution field on bug 612 to DUPLICATE of bug 520.
20:25:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=612 min, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, Status icon should display if the account of a conversation is connected or not
20:32:18 <clokep> Yup. :) Seems like it'd be easy to fix once we have an image?
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21:58:11 <Mic> yes, the images are the only problem as it seems
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23:40:54 <instantbot> New purplexpcom - General bug 613 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
23:40:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=613 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Presence information on IRC
23:45:44 <Mic1> /users
23:45:48 <Mic1> msg mic