#instantbird log on 12 05 2010

All times are UTC.

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10:04:34 <flo> ah, this time my windows build failed after 40 minutes because Windows denies itself the permission to access a folder in the build directory
10:05:28 <flo> after a restart it can access that folder
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10:28:53 <Mic> Morning
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11:02:32 <flo> ah, after another 41 minutes, the compilation finished successfully :)
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11:28:58 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/9616e11f0a4f - Florian Quèze - [Mac] Reduce the height of the splitter between the input box and the conversation history.
11:28:59 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/30e06bddc097 - Florian Quèze - Let conversation textboxes accept a background.
11:32:16 <flo> those check-ins are needed for the Status Reminder add-on to work.
11:33:23 <flo> My instantbird process is currently using 100% of the CPU and filling the system log with "** (process:98372): CRITICAL **: jabber_recv_cb: assertion `PURPLE_CONNECTION_IS_VALID(gc)' failed " messages :(
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12:37:37 <Mic> flo: why does the first version of your Add-on leak?
12:47:59 <flo> Mic: I spent the evening Friday to try to understand it and couldn't.
12:48:22 <flo> I guess something somewhere creates a reference cycle between the JS module I'm modifying and the buddy list where the JS code is executed.
12:48:35 <Mic> Ah, ok. I thought it was something obvious that I just didn't know of
12:48:50 <Mic> How do you know that it leaks?
12:49:56 <Mic> I'm not very familiar with this problem but I think it might be important to know
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13:00:56 <Mic> I should have pushed my changes to the Addons makefile one day, merging sucks
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13:08:21 <Mic> In which cases to you have to unregister observes btw?
13:08:55 <Mic> *do we
13:09:03 <Mic> *observers
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13:21:46 <tymerkaev> hello
13:26:55 <Mic> hi
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13:40:59 <Mic> flo: could it be that Status Reminder is not working on Windows yet?
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13:46:57 <Mic> d'oh. The push was after the nightly build. Sorry for bothering you.
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13:52:53 <sabret00the> Did you guys come up with a solution to menu grouping? If not I might have a think about it and propose something
13:53:51 <Mic> Not yet and sure: if you have a good idea just post it on the bug report! :)
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14:12:52 <sabret00the> I'll post somethingup in a couple hours.
14:17:12 <Mic> :)
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14:30:53 <flo> Mic: I see the leak in the summary of not free'd at shutdown XPCOM objects in the terminal with a debug build
14:31:59 <Mic> If you want something fancy for the textbox, you might want to try this http://pastebin.instantbird.com/495
14:32:01 <Mic> Ah, ok
14:33:33 <Mic> bbl
14:33:59 <Mic> oh, if you've got answers concerning these general leak question, I'd be interested to know ofcourse
14:34:05 <Mic> *of course
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16:03:15 <clokep> Good morning.
16:04:57 <Mic> Morning
16:06:27 * tymerkaev yeah, morning!
16:09:52 <flo> Mic: I'm not sure of what the "general leak question" was.
16:10:24 <Mic> I think I wasn't exactly specific about that, sorry
16:10:28 <Mic> What are usual patterns that create leaks?
16:10:57 <flo> forgetting to remove an observer
16:11:06 <flo> reference cycles
16:11:16 <flo> I'm almost sure there's an article on MDC
16:11:21 <flo> looking for it ^^
16:11:53 <Mic> OK, I knew that observers are critical somehow
16:12:31 <Mic> How do you create reference cycles?
16:12:40 <Mic> As easy as two objects referencing each other?
16:13:26 <flo> yes, but with some special conditions.
16:13:39 <flo> like one object implemented in C++ and the other in javascript
16:13:40 <instantbot> c++ is evil
16:14:03 <flo> if both are in JS, it doesn't matter because the garbarge collector will still collect them when the window is closed
16:16:47 <flo> http://forum.digsby.com/viewtopic.php?id=2094 ahah :)
16:18:01 <clokep> Yeah. I'm actuallly using 715MB...but I do have like 50+ tabs open, so...
16:18:47 <clokep> But if the Digsby team did it...it'd be like Google chrome and they'd keep track of all the pages we view. ;)
16:19:55 <Mic> I've seen different places on the web where they compared the basic memory footprint of browsers and checked the impact of the number of open tabs
16:19:58 <flo> I'm happy we don't have that kind of users (yet) :)
16:20:06 <Mic> Firefox had the worst with just one tab
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16:20:28 <Mic> And was perfoming better than others as soon as you started using the browser with a few tabs ;)
16:21:23 <flo> it's very possible that these users who complain against firefox have a lot of crappy add-ons/plugins installed on the system that leak all the webpages that are ever loaded :-D
16:22:17 <clokep> Usually they have a lot of toolbars and viruses too. ;)
16:24:46 <Mic> flo: we have those users
16:24:55 <flo> Mic: the article I was looking for is https://developer.mozilla.org/en/Using_XPCOM_in_JavaScript_without_leaking
16:24:57 <Mic> Remember, umm .. bug 151 ?
16:25:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151 enh, --, 0.2, nobody, NEW, Create a Tray Icon. SINGLE-click on tray icon opens and closes Instantbird.
16:25:04 <flo> I'm afraid some of it is outdated though
16:25:33 <Mic> ok, thanks
16:28:01 <flo> that user wasn't complaining about memory and saying some other crappy company should "take over us" :)
16:28:50 <flo> I remember one user complaining that Instantbird was bloated because the windows installer weighted more than 2MB :)
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16:40:56 <Mic> bah, Bloatbird :P
16:42:07 <Mic> btw that css piece I pastebined was diagonal stripes in fading out towards the bottom, like it is on the add-ons manager
16:42:29 <Mic> I used white instead of the real background color for the sake of simplicity though
16:43:35 * clokep is wondering if we should release an alpha soon.
16:43:58 <clokep> An awful lot has changed, but everything seems to be working now (in terms of mozilla-central), so might be good for people to find all the bugs we missed. :)
16:47:55 <flo> clokep: yes, probably. We don't have any major 0.3 feature done though :(
16:48:27 <clokep> :-\ Maybe we should identify some "must-haves" and start work on them?
16:49:00 <flo> I wanted to release an alpha as soon as we had twitter working
16:49:05 <flo> didn't think it would take that long
16:49:18 <clokep> Yes, it's non-trivial. :(
16:49:36 <flo> I haven't worked on it for a very long time though
16:49:54 <flo> I was mostly distracted by that grandparent house selling...
16:50:25 <clokep> Understandable.
16:50:31 <flo> we would need the project to rely less on myself being productive
16:50:52 <Mic> Well, RL comes first
16:51:09 <Mic> That how it looks in action btw: https://wiki.instantbird.org/images/1/1c/Status_Reminder.png ;)
16:51:45 <clokep> I'm hoping to contribute more in about 2 months, once I move into my new apartment and start my job (and holidays, etc. are over), i.e. once I graduate.
16:52:14 <flo> I'm planing/hoping to change the way I spent my time
16:52:40 <flo> to spend more time on things that really matter and less on day to day things that I should let other people handle, or let fall on the floor.
16:55:12 <flo> Mic: by the way, are you going to use that add-on, or just playing with the appearance? :)
16:55:24 <Mic> I don't know yet
16:55:34 <Mic> It doesn't work yet
16:55:36 <flo> if almost all of us end up using it, maybe we should integrate it by default
16:55:42 <flo> ah, right
16:55:51 <Mic> I need a "background: inherit" enabled build to do so ;)
16:56:08 <Mic> Setting it with DOMi on every textbox is rather tedious ;)
16:56:31 <flo> if you edit the code of the add-on, you can do it there ;)
16:56:53 <Mic> I didn't think of that :D
16:57:30 <Mic> Maybe we should add a transition
16:57:47 <Mic> The bars appearing suddenly is not so nice
16:58:19 <clokep> Fade in and out?! :)
16:58:27 <clokep> That would look sweet.
16:59:13 <Mic> By the way I really like restartless add-ons
17:01:40 <flo> message themes, emoticons themes and protocol plugins should really become restartless ;)
17:02:08 <flo> I'm not sure of what we should do when the user attempts to uninstall/disable a theme that is currently in use though :-S
17:02:14 <Mic> Indeed. How difficult is it to repackage them (and keeping them compatible to 0.2 if necessary)?
17:03:16 <flo> I don't know
17:03:25 <clokep> flo: Can we just not let them and tell them to change it?
17:03:49 <flo> we would either need to create a generic bootstrap.js file to include, or find a way for the application to "know" the message themes are all restartless
17:04:18 <flo> ideas I had for the uninstall issue:
17:04:38 <flo> - implement dynamic theme switching, and redisplay the current conversations with the default theme
17:05:05 <flo> - create a specific category in the add-on manager for themes, so that they are handled differently
17:05:28 <Mic> Is there something like a Chrome:// Explorer btw? This would be quite handy sometimes
17:05:38 <clokep> Mic: There is.
17:05:46 <clokep> I forget where. :)
17:05:51 <clokep> Someone made an extension for it though.
17:09:32 <Mic> How would that work for protocol plugins btw?
17:10:18 <Mic> You can't use components according to Mr. Palant
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17:12:21 <flo> Mic: really?
17:13:38 <Mic> hmm, no. Sorry, should have read second half of the paraqgraph as well
17:15:07 <flo> I don't remember which limitation there was
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17:45:51 <clokep> flo: Is there particular Twitter issues you're having or just everything that's been discussed?
17:47:15 <clokep> DGMurdockIII: Is bug 528 a problem still or is it definitely a mumble problem or...?
17:47:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528 maj, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, mumble crashes instantbird
17:47:47 <DGMurdockIII> it not a problem anymore
17:48:05 <DGMurdockIII> it haseent ben for a while
17:48:09 <flo> clokep: nothing that I'm really stuck on. Just I need to "do something for OAuth rather than continue talking about it", and create a real protocol plugin ;)
17:48:30 <clokep> I'm gonna close that as WFM then, OK?
17:49:43 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 528 to WORKSFORME.
17:49:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528 maj, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, mumble crashes instantbird
17:50:07 <DGMurdockIII> 2(clokep2): but i think it could have been a mumble problem they have a overlay but you can whitlist app you dont want to overlay on and i did for instantbird and the problem went away
17:51:29 <clokep> flo: A random idea I had that I'm wondering if it's even feasible. In terms of having like IRC specific UI, could we make a binding that inherits from conversation.xml and adds more specific UI?
17:52:12 <flo> maybe :)
17:52:43 <flo> we could also remove all the nicklist from the conversation binding, and put that in a separate binding that would be attached when there's a specific attribute
17:54:06 <clokep> Well couldn't we do conversation --> chat --> ( IRC chat, XMPP chat, etc.)
17:54:18 <clokep> (where --> represents inheritance. ;))
18:09:15 * tymerkaev is now known as tymerkaev_away
18:13:51 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): did you see that reply on the blog from a guy from the seamonky person?
18:14:03 <flo> yes
18:14:10 <flo> why?
18:14:55 <clokep> Kairo? Right?
18:15:01 <flo> yes
18:15:24 <DGMurdockIII> no Robert Kaiser
18:15:50 <Mic> That's him
18:15:57 <flo> same person
18:16:23 <DGMurdockIII> did you ever get ahold of him
18:17:50 <flo> I wanted to email him but I'm not exactly sure of what to write
18:18:17 <flo> I already know him, we have talked several times face to face
18:19:11 <DGMurdockIII> so he live close to you
18:19:34 <DGMurdockIII> or you have on video chat
18:20:03 <flo> or we went to the same mozilla events ;)
18:20:13 <DGMurdockIII> kool
18:24:02 <DGMurdockIII> why dont you join http://imfreedom.org/
18:24:30 <DGMurdockIII> We're a non-profit organization whose goal is to support free instant messaging software. A primary purpose of the organization is to manage the affairs of Adium, Finch, Pidgin, Vulture and libpurple. This includes accepting tax-deductible donations, paying for web hosting, graphics, web site design, etc. It also includes protecting individual developers from lawsuits related to the software. It is important to note that we ex
18:26:45 <flo> DGMurdockIII: that's Pidgin.
18:28:22 <DGMurdockIII> ok
18:28:56 <DGMurdockIII> but they said on there site that And we don't want to limit ourselves to helping only the software mentioned above. We hope to help any free instant messaging software.
18:29:42 <clokep> Although I'm interested in http://imfreedom.org/wiki/Main_Page ...
18:30:03 <DGMurdockIII> me to
18:30:34 <DGMurdockIII> if anything the wiki is really usfall
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21:22:55 <Mic> clokep: Does "Enable tabbed conversations" sound good to a native speaker? (related to bug 387)
21:23:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
21:23:50 <clokep> Mic: one second.
21:24:44 <clokep> What's the context? Which option are we talking about? :)
21:25:19 <clokep> But yes "Enable tabbed conversations" sounds fine. Still a little ambiguous I think, but it sounds good.
21:25:27 <Mic> It's about the first two items on the Tabs pane of the Options dialog
21:26:06 <Mic> I came across "Enable tabbed browsing" in IE's settings dialog a few minutes and thought that it sounds much better than the "open in new tab" thing in Firefox
21:27:47 <Mic> And "Open a new window for each Multi-User Chat" ?
21:33:33 <Mic> Or maybe "Open each Multi-User Chat in a new window" ?
21:33:56 <Mic> In my opinion the latter sounds better
21:36:25 <clokep> "Open each Multi-User Chat in a new window" is better IMO.
21:37:46 <Mic> OK, thanks
21:41:40 <Mic> "Open each Multi-User Chat in a *separate* window" (or maybe *own*)?
21:41:55 <Mic> Would emphasise this aspect
21:44:21 <flo> uh?
21:44:36 <clokep> I guess "separate"?
21:44:41 <flo> there's one windows for IMs and one for MUCs, not a window for each MUC
21:45:17 <Mic> Ah, you see how ambiguous the current expression is? :D
21:45:22 <Mic> I never used this tbh
21:46:03 <flo> the feature is probably wrong in the first place
21:46:12 <flo> it's a poor workaround to something real we should address
21:46:12 <Mic> "Group Multi-User Chats in a separate window"
21:46:40 <Mic> I think we have a list of possible suggestions in the extension wishlist?
21:46:47 <flo> the issue is that MUCs are conversations that you don't use but don't want to close because you want to receive the message if one ever appears
21:46:49 <Mic> -possible
21:47:35 <flo> having a way to "store unused conversations" at the top of the buddy list, or like application tabs (a tab with an icon but no label), or maybe something else would be a lot better than a separate window that you put somewhere and forget
21:49:41 <Mic> .. and "without even opening the window until the user explicitely requests it"
21:50:07 <Mic> A number could show the number of unread messages maybe
21:50:13 <flo> yes
21:50:29 <flo> closing a tab for a MUC that is auto-joined should not leave it
21:50:47 <flo> autojoin should be toggleable from the tab context menu
21:51:19 <flo> and the conversation tab for autojoined conversation should not appear until there are messages, or maybe even messages explicitely directed to you.
21:51:21 <Mic> I think there should be a button to close a MUC, so you can close the tab and still receive messages
21:51:35 <flo> well, summary: our UI for MUCs sucks... a lot.
21:52:14 <Mic> clokep: "Group Multi-User Chats [...]" is even better, isn't it?
21:53:10 <flo> Mic: "Group Multi-User Chats in a separate window" sounded good to me.
21:53:17 <clokep> Mic: Catching up, one second.
21:53:23 <flo> that is, if the wording if the only thing you want to change.
21:53:52 <Mic> Yes, this is only about the ambiguous description on the options window
21:54:02 <clokep> flo: Mic: I agree, "Group Multi-User Chats in a separate window"
21:54:40 <Mic> I can file a bug about the larger problem later
21:54:56 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 410 to bug 387.
21:54:57 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 410 on bug 387.
21:55:00 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
21:56:50 <flo> I suspect the first step in getting the larger problem fixed is to have the core conversation objects store the list of the messages belonging to the conversation, and have the display of the conversation no longer affect the core conversation object
21:57:20 <flo> we want to be able to close and reopen a conversation and have it displayed identically.
21:57:30 <flo> or redisplay it from scratch with a different message theme
21:58:34 <flo> probably the first thing to address for 0.4a1pre: redesign the conversation objects to have something that makes sense.
22:06:38 <Mic> :)
22:07:32 <flo> that will probably be the preparation work before really working on a good log system
22:07:39 <flo> I look forward to getting there :)
22:08:38 <flo> Mic: r-, sorry :-/
22:08:42 <Mic> I don't think I can file a reasonable bug on this
22:08:45 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org denied review for attachment 410 on bug 387.
22:08:48 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
22:08:51 <Mic> Coding style? :P
22:09:37 <Mic> oh, I didn't know that. Ok, will do that
22:10:17 <flo> :)
22:14:29 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 411 to bug 387.
22:14:30 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 411 on bug 387.
22:14:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
22:15:03 <Mic> argh, forget that :D
22:15:23 <Mic> Changing entity names in the dtd file only is far from useful :D
22:19:21 <Mic> The name of the preference ( "[...].useSeparateWindowsForMUCs" is misleading, shall I rename it as well (at all places that it occurs at ofcourse?;) ?
22:21:02 <flo> no
22:21:08 <Mic> ok
22:21:16 <flo> except if you are in the mood of writing some migration code :-P
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22:30:03 <Mic> Sorry for the bugspam
22:30:09 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com added attachment 412 to bug 387.
22:30:10 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com cancelled review?(florian@instantbird .org) for attachment 411 on bug 387.
22:30:11 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 412 on bug 387.
22:30:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
22:35:12 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted review for attachment 412 on bug 387.
22:35:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387 tri, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Make wording of "Use separate windows.." setting less ambiguous
22:38:13 <clokep> :)
22:38:52 <clokep> Took you almost as many tries as it takes me for a simple patch! But at least you upload the right patch to the right bug. ;)
22:39:10 <Mic> ;)
22:40:08 <flo> shouldn't "warn me when closing multiple tabs blahblah" be indented like "Group MUCs" ?
22:41:34 <flo> the old "open new conversations in tabs instead of windows" was more accurate than "Enable tabbed conversations"
22:41:57 <flo> because when it's off you can still move a conversation into another window and they end up in tabs
22:42:05 <flo> just, this will never happen automatically
22:43:07 <flo> now the "Always show the tab bar" setting is stupid. Either tab conversations is enabled and the tab bar makes sense, or it's not, and it will always be useless and should not be shown
22:43:14 <clokep> It sohuld probably be "Group conversations in tabs" to have a similar thought. :)
22:44:27 <flo> the usecase of "put each new conversation in a new window, but don't hide the tabbar so that I can group the tabs manually" seems very unlikely to me. Maybe we should drop it and leave that to an add-on
22:45:01 <flo> that would let us get rid of the "Always show the tab bar" pref from the UI
22:52:09 <Mic> True
22:56:41 <flo> should we file a follow up to cover that, or do you think we should do it here instead of commiting the current patch?
22:59:07 <Mic> It's not exactly in the scope of this bug, maybe we create a new one, don't commit the patch and do both on the new bug?
23:01:21 <flo> we will end up with a tab with only 3 checkbox
23:01:39 <flo> is the next follow up bug "move all that to a small corner of the "advanced" tab? :-D
23:01:44 <Mic> Maybe we can move them somewhere else?
23:04:29 <clokep> Remove them about about:config them? ;)
23:04:40 <clokep> "and about:config" them, rather.
23:07:14 <flo> I hate preferences :-D
23:07:54 <flo> I knew there would be endless debates of adding/(re)moving preferences once we have a preference window.
23:08:09 <flo> It's the reason I've delayed/procrastinated adding the pref window for so long ;)
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23:13:03 <Mic> We have a bug about merging the Content pane into the Themes pane
23:13:16 <Mic> (by the way)
23:17:31 <flo> wasn't there one somewhere with suggestions to clarify the content of the content pane?
23:17:55 <clokep> flo: Yes I filed that one I believe.
23:18:07 <clokep> bug 542
23:18:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Reformat "Content" Tab of Options
23:24:57 <Mic> The other one is bug 561
23:25:01 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=561 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Merge "Content" and "Themes"-panes
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23:35:12 <flo> Good night
23:35:53 <Mic> nn
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23:56:19 <Mic> nn
23:56:31 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)