#instantbird log on 09 07 2010

All times are UTC.

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10:03:09 <Mic> hi
10:11:10 <Morian> hey Mic
10:56:04 <Mic> how are you?
10:56:12 <Mic> Still so busy with internships and school?
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15:56:18 <clokep> Hello.
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20:07:22 <clokep> flo: I just made a request to Twitter from Instantbird and got valid responses. :)
20:07:43 <flo> cool :)
20:07:54 <flo> which OAuth key are you using?
20:08:00 <clokep> Uhhh...I think one of my own?
20:08:05 <clokep> Or maybe the mozilla one? O:-)
20:08:17 <clokep> I think its my own?
20:08:34 * clokep is checking.
20:09:29 <clokep> flo: Yes its one I had registered with twitter.
20:09:36 <flo> ok :)
20:09:48 <clokep> Does it make a different for now? ;)
20:11:57 <clokep> *difference
20:12:17 <clokep> But all I did was doing it via an overlay requesting it. I need to make it into a protocol now.
20:13:29 <flo> do you still need to change the preference to avoid using an external browser?
20:13:58 <clokep> Yes, I decided it'd be more worth my time at the moment to try to get Twitter working first, then worry about getting around that preference. :-\
20:14:51 <flo> sounds reasonable :)
20:18:05 * clokep is trying to combine omegle.js, his twitter library and his twitter test page all at once. Eek.
20:21:28 <clokep> instantbot: uuid
20:21:29 <instantbot> 9a2058f2-e87e-42f1-9176-182511d25010 (/msg instantbot cid for CID form)
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20:28:55 <clokep> You know flo, this might not be the best protocol to start with for creating a new protocol.
20:29:13 <clokep> Since you're not only creating a new protocol, but you're also forcing microblogging into the IM concept.
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21:02:38 <flo> clokep: yeah, we need to think about the UI for microblogging, to make it "fit into the IM concept" :)
21:03:17 <clokep> flo: Yeah, I don't really want to go through the trouble of putting all my code into it then be like "Oh, yeah none of this makes sense." It works though. I can post my code if you want.
21:03:44 <hicham> how does pidgin handle microblogging ?
21:03:53 <clokep> I also have an unrelated question. How would you connect to a "real" server via JavaScript for a protocol? Is "sockets" the proper terminology?
21:04:09 <clokep> hicham: There's a variety of protocols plugins that handle it, they all do it differently.
21:04:41 <clokep> Some handle it as chats, other as an IM, etc.
21:07:15 <flo> hicham: if I remember well, the official way to handle it is to say "libpurple and Pidgin are for instant messaging and microblogging is not instant messaging, so it won't be supported."
21:08:10 <flo> clokep: I think there's an XPCOM API that is usable to use TCP and UDP connections
21:08:27 <clokep> flo: Any idea what its called. :(
21:08:50 <clokep> There's a nsIServerSocket which can /accept/ connections, Idk if it can make them...
21:09:30 <flo> probably not. I think there's another name for the other connexions :)
21:09:50 <flo> maybe http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/base/public/nsISocketTransport.idl
21:11:35 <clokep> Ah, thanks. How do you find this stuff? I was searhing MDC, didn't try mxr. :-\
21:12:03 <flo> http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/base/public/nsISocketTransportService.idl
21:12:30 <flo> I try mxr first.
21:12:38 <flo> I don't trust MDC for XPCOM interfaces.
21:12:58 <flo> and when it's up to date, there's rarely more than the comments that are already in the .idl file
21:13:43 <flo> I think http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/netwerk/base/public/nsITransport.idl is relevant too
21:13:58 <flo> but do you need anything that is not HTTP/HTTPS for twitter?
21:14:55 <clokep> No.
21:15:02 <clokep> Was looking at IRC actually.
21:15:20 <clokep> I need to think about the UI more before I start doing stuff for Twitter. I can put up my code of what I have though.
21:15:20 <flo> http://www.oxymoronical.com/experiments/apidocs/ may be a lot better than mxr to look for XPCOM APIs, but I don't know that tool very well
21:15:42 <clokep> Ah, thanks a lot. :)
21:17:18 <flo> np
21:22:25 <clokep> One of my friends is trying to run Instantbird in Linux, he extracts it, double clicks it, selects "run" and nothing happens. (On Ubuntu). I'm sure he's doing something silly...but any ideas?
21:22:49 <flo> maybe some dependencies are missing
21:22:49 <hicham> the wrapper isn't executable
21:23:08 <hicham> i thought instantbird is packaged for ubuntu
21:23:22 <clokep> He said he couldn't find it?
21:23:25 <flo> hicham: it's packaged for the next version of Ubuntu
21:23:46 <clokep> flo: Are the dependencies listed? :)
21:24:05 <flo> if Firefox 3.6 works, Instantbird should work too
21:24:10 <clokep> hicham: Its an "executable text file" that he can "edit, run or run in terminal"
21:24:16 <hicham> flo : does current IB support xulrunner-1.9.1 ?
21:24:42 <flo> I don't remember
21:24:45 <hicham> clokep: then he is probably missing a dependency
21:24:59 <clokep> hicham: Thanks. Checking his versions of stuff now.
21:25:25 <hicham> clokep: starting it from terminal would give more info
21:25:29 <flo> hicham: it's possible that it works on 1.9.1 enough to be usable, but there would certainly be at least details that wouldn't be as good as on 1.9.2
21:26:12 <clokep> "tried going into the terminal and doing ./instantbird in the folder and that complained about instantbird-bin not being found, when its in the same folder"
21:26:59 <flo> is it ubuntu 64 bits and a 32 bit binary of Instantbird?
21:27:12 <hicham> that might be a reason
21:27:23 <flo> (we haven't released any 64 bit binaries)
21:27:56 <hicham> flo : so if a bug in IB is hit using xulrunner-1.9.1 would it be supported ?
21:28:22 <clokep> Ah, he thinks its 64 but isn't sur ehow to chec.
21:28:40 <flo> try typing this in the terminal: uname -a
21:28:43 <hicham> uname -m
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21:29:19 <flo> hicham: if the bug is caused by the older version of xulrunner, it won't be supported.
21:29:29 <clokep> flo: Its 64.
21:29:42 <flo> If the bug is in our code, we will probably want to fix it, whatever version of xulrunner you are using
21:30:22 <clokep> That means a resounding "no its not supported", right?
21:30:39 <hicham> flo : i am just trying to figure out which Fedora releases to support
21:30:53 <flo> the one with Mozilla 1.9.2 :)
21:31:00 <flo> and soon the one with Mozilla 2.0
21:31:11 <hicham> flo : and 0.3 uses mozilla 2.0 ?
21:31:18 <flo> not yet, but it will
21:32:00 <flo> I haven't yet figured out why it crashes at start up on Windows, but as soon as I have a fix for this, the 0.3a1pre nightlies will be on mozilla 2.0 code
21:32:28 <hicham> flo : oh, so it builds fine ?
21:32:34 <clokep> flo: What's the crash? (Just curious if its something I'd recognize from when they were changing over to it.)
21:32:49 <flo> hicham: if you pull the "mozilla2" branch of our repository, it works fine on Linux and Mac.
21:33:20 <flo> clokep: the omnijar is not packaged correctly and ends up being almost completely empty, which makes the application crash at startup when trying to load the UI.
21:33:20 <hicham> flo : good news
21:33:48 <clokep> flo: Well the crash makes sense. :) I don't remember coming across any omnijar ones though. :(
21:33:49 <clokep> Sorry.
21:34:11 <flo> clokep: there's probably some build system magic that we need to port
21:34:17 <flo> I haven't figured out what exactly
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21:34:45 <flo> and I guess I won't try, and will instead make Instantbird use the new package.manifest system.
21:35:05 <flo> so that the packaging code becomes identical to the Firefox one :)
21:35:12 <clokep> That makes it easier, right? :)
21:36:07 <flo> clokep: "That means a resounding "no its not supported", right?". Well. It means *I* won't work on 1.9.1. Whoever else want to do it can support it. The code is free ;).
21:36:31 <clokep> flo: I meant that he's using 64-bit, it got mixed in the middle there.
21:36:51 <hicham> clokep: he should install 32 compat libs
21:37:43 <flo> hicham: by the way, the absolute minimal Mozilla version to have any change of making Instantbird work is 1.9beta4, because the patch in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=418535 is really needed.
21:37:50 <flo> *chance
21:38:19 <flo> anything newer than that and older than what we use "may work".
21:38:51 <hicham> flo : that is ok, the least version on fedora is xulrunner- currently
21:39:04 <hicham> flo : max is xulrunner-2.0b4
21:39:20 <clokep> hicham: Do you know what that package is called by any chance? The compatibility libraries.
21:39:32 <flo> ia32libs
21:39:36 <flo> or something very close to that
21:40:39 <flo> Google says it's ia32-libs
21:41:00 <hicham> yes, it is
21:41:04 <clokep> flo: Ah, yes. Google. Thanks. :)
21:41:32 <flo> hicham: do you use Ubuntu too? :)
21:41:52 <hicham> flo : I tested it sometime ago
21:41:58 <flo> ok :)
21:42:12 <hicham> clokep: or he can compile from ubuntu sources
21:42:23 <flo> by the way, when I say something "works on Linux", it usually means that I works on the ubuntu that is currently installed on my machine.
21:42:43 <flo> *it
21:42:47 <hicham> linux is the same
21:42:47 * clokep is a Linux noob except for programming.
21:43:05 <hicham> especially mozilla, since it is enforcing trademarks
21:43:10 <clokep> hicham: I don't think he'll compile from source. He's more of a FORTRAn guy. ;)
21:43:38 <hicham> clokep: compiling from source using dpkg is relatively easy
21:43:48 <clokep> Yeah, but I don't wanna walk him through it.
21:44:07 <flo> it can still be slow if the machine is not a recent one
21:44:28 <hicham> it takes some time to compile on my laptop
21:44:33 <hicham> about ten minutes
21:44:52 <flo> 12 minutes on mozilla2 on my Core2Quad Ubuntu64
21:45:16 <flo> it used to be 7min50. I guess Mozilla has added a lot of code...
21:45:39 <hicham> xulrunner2 takes 1hour+ to compile here
21:45:47 <flo> or changed some optimization flags that slow down the compiler a lot
21:46:03 <hicham> xulrunner1 takes 38min
21:46:08 <clokep> flo: They added a lot of tests, not sure if that matters.
21:46:31 <flo> clokep: when I compile with --disable-tests, I hope it doesn't matter much. I don't know for sure though :)
21:47:03 <clokep> It takes me much longer than any of those times on my Core 2 Duo. ;) Have tried on my i7.
21:47:15 <flo> and building with Mozilla2 on my Windows VM takes hours...
21:47:25 <hicham> clokep: because you compile xulrunner+IB
21:47:37 <flo> the build failed 3 times in the middle, it almost took me a full day to get it to compile
21:47:40 <clokep> flo, hicham: He got it working. Thanks for the help.
21:47:54 <flo> clokep: cool! :)
21:48:03 <hicham> clokep: congrats
21:49:41 <clokep> And now wants themes, blah.
21:49:58 <flo> we should probably think more about offering linux 64bit binaries.
21:50:32 <flo> adding more build machines and more builds to store on the server is not something we look forward too :-/
21:50:34 <flo> *to
21:51:15 <clokep> :( Can it be in a VM?
21:51:29 <hicham> flo : or make it more packager friendly
21:51:48 <clokep> Or add something to the FAQ. ;)
21:52:38 <flo> clokep: Linux 32bits and Windows build machines are currently VMs, on the same Core2Quad physical machine under Even's desk in his apartment.
21:52:55 <hicham> last build i did had some missing nss includes
21:53:05 <flo> hicham: I would be interested in knowing what's currently unfriendly.
21:53:44 <flo> though maybe not this evening. I'm a bit tired, and I've got to get up early tomorrow to bring my car at the garage.
21:54:07 <hicham> flo : i will gather as much as i can an open a bug for it
21:54:19 <flo> hicham: I fear I can't do anything about the "should use system libpurple" thing though.
21:54:33 <clokep> Ah, I see. I guess adding another VM would over do it? :-D
21:54:42 <hicham> flo : i am not talking about this one
21:55:27 <clokep> flo, hicham: He can't open links in a conversation. They don't do anything.
21:55:47 <flo> hicham: the maintainer of the ArchLinux package as already filed a few bugs and submitted a few patchs. Some of them have been integrated and probably saved you a lot of pain
21:56:08 <hicham> flo : nice to hear
21:56:19 <hicham> flo : last build i did was a real pain
21:56:40 <flo> if I remember well using the xulrunner-sdk was not possible before
21:57:17 <hicham> that what kept songbird away from fedora repos
21:57:20 <flo> clokep: do they work if the browser is already opened?
21:57:26 <hicham> because it bundles its own xulrunner version
21:58:17 <Mic> clokep: you have to add a handler for the links on the preferences menu
21:58:28 <Mic> There's a bug iirc
21:58:40 <Mic> *protocols
21:58:56 <hicham> what does IB use to handle links ? xdg ?
21:59:14 <flo> hicham: I don't remember, but it's the same as Thunderbird
21:59:21 <Mic> Could be bug 373
21:59:25 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Nothing happens when action="Always ask" and no choices available yet
21:59:35 <hicham> i didn't have that problem
22:00:22 <Mic> This would be the first thing I'd try at least
22:00:45 <flo> I don't remember seeing that bug
22:00:59 <hicham> flo : archlinux is using a diff for system nss
22:01:00 <flo> I haven't tried to open link from recently created profiles though
22:01:09 <hicham> flo : http://aur.archlinux.org/packages/instantbird/instantbird/nss.diff
22:02:08 <flo> hicham: why is the "separate mozilla runtime" an issue for Songbird but not Thunderbird?
22:02:34 <Mic> flo: I'm not sure if it occurs on recently profiles, I thought they'd bring https? and ftp handlers by default?
22:02:52 <hicham> flo : because Thunderbird uses internal linkage
22:03:03 <flo> Mic: I remember I've hacked something about this after adding the prefwindow to force http and https to be listed
22:03:04 <Mic> It was fixed some time in the past and the bug report might pre-date it
22:03:07 <hicham> flo : there is a bug for it though
22:03:44 <flo> "-I/usr/include/libxml2/ -I/usr/local/include/libxml2/" is really ugly :-(. Paths shouldn't be hardcoded like that
22:04:13 <hicham> flo : https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377319
22:04:21 <hicham> flo : that is why we invented pkgconfig
22:04:42 <clokep> Mic: Is there any information about doing that?
22:04:52 <flo> hicham: I know the bug on the mozilla side.
22:04:57 <Mic> About doing what?
22:05:11 <flo> I just don't see how it's worse to have a custom xulrunner than not being able to use xulrunner at all
22:05:24 <flo> but that's not relevant for Instantbird anyway :)
22:05:53 <hicham> flo : having a custom xulrunner breaks the no bundled libs policy
22:06:02 <hicham> flo : which is used by most distributions
22:06:16 <flo> but statically linking the code doesn't break it?
22:06:45 <hicham> distributions favor dynamic linking over static one
22:07:31 <hicham> static linking is only used when there is no other way
22:07:38 <Mic> clokep: ping
22:07:40 <flo> it seems to me that the policy is applied only for new packages ;)
22:07:51 <hicham> like for freepascal or D language
22:07:58 <clokep> clokep: pong
22:08:06 <clokep> Mic: pong :)
22:08:12 <hicham> flo : even new packages can have an exception
22:08:24 <hicham> flo : D programming stack is an example in Fedora
22:08:30 <Mic> 00:04:58 - Mic (Mozilla): About doing what?
22:08:35 <flo> hicham: that's nice to know :)
22:09:16 <hicham> flo : the point of using dynamic linking is primarily security
22:10:06 <flo> hicham: I understand that it makes sense.
22:10:20 <flo> it's the same as when we don't want to duplicate code. Just at a different level. :)
22:10:47 <hicham> and of course less rebuilding unless it is really needed
22:10:55 <clokep> Mic: He got it to work, never mind.
22:11:26 <Mic> Was it this problem? Would be nice to know if it still occurs
22:11:32 <hicham> flo : chromium is a bad example at that too
22:12:11 <clokep> flo: Are you unable to get the server/port from the account?
22:12:18 <hicham> flo : what do you think about the nss patch ?
22:13:23 <flo> hicham: it cannot be right
22:13:30 <flo> the patch patches the Mozilla source code too.
22:13:42 <flo> the file mozilla/configure.in is not part of our source code.
22:14:49 <hicham> flo : you are right about that
22:14:55 <hicham> flo : i didn't pay attention to it
22:15:17 <flo> the hunk in purple/libpurple/Makefile.in makes sense
22:15:53 <hicham> will you add that hunk ?
22:16:18 <flo> if that's enough for all distributions to not have to add a distribution specific patch, certainly
22:16:24 <flo> if it doesn't fix the issue, no :)
22:16:34 <hicham> i will try it
22:16:51 <flo> does ubuntu need patches for nss too?
22:19:41 <hicham> flo : no, but for other stuff
22:19:59 <hicham> there is one from https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/attachment.cgi?id=297
22:20:47 <hicham> and the other is http://fpaste.org/ZkDw/
22:21:31 <Mic> nn
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22:22:12 <flo> hicham: the first one is to support Mozilla 1.9.1 (now I remember I did wrote that patch! :-D)
22:22:18 <flo> I've never seen the second one
22:22:45 <hicham> flo : i think i used the seconf
22:22:48 <hicham> *second
22:23:59 <flo> I think the second is something we should apply
22:24:55 <flo> well, it's already applied in the mozilla2 branch
22:25:11 <flo> where I've updated the buildsystem
22:25:17 <hicham> flo : did you remove xpcnativewrappers=yes in the mozilla2 branch ?
22:25:25 <flo> yes
22:26:26 <hicham> if there could be a way to directly use xulrunner-sdk without having to pull mozilla code
22:26:41 <hicham> why mozilla tree is needed for ?
22:26:44 <hicham> *what
22:26:51 <flo> the patch you showed is from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=493672
22:26:54 <hicham> the config stuff ?
22:27:13 <clokep> instantbot: uuid
22:27:14 <instantbot> 607b2c0b-9504-483f-ad62-41de09238aec (/msg instantbot cid for CID form)
22:27:24 <flo> hicham: some of the build config stuff are shared
22:28:07 <hicham> flo : so i can just copy those build configs without having to put the whole mozilla tree ?
22:28:32 <flo> probably
22:28:39 <flo> I don't know how many files you will need to copy
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22:30:39 <hicham> thanks
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22:30:56 <hicham> about funding, why not add some harmless ads ?
22:31:45 <flo> I'm not really sure what harmless ads are :)
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22:33:06 <flo> I think we will try to setup a userfriendly pastebin server and integrate it tightly with Instantbird by default (it will be possible to choose another pastebin server to use from the preference window). There would probably be some ads on the pastebin pages.
22:33:45 <flo> I don't think adding ads directly in the software is a good idea because it could encourage people to fork it just to create ads-free builds.
22:34:12 <clokep> flo: Pastebin? How many people really use pastebin offten?
22:34:13 <flo> on web services that we provide but are optional and easy to replace, I think it's legitimate that we use ads to fund the costs of the servers
22:34:16 <hicham> ads on the chat windows
22:34:32 <flo> clokep: only developers because the current UI is only usable by them.
22:34:42 <flo> the idea was to pastebin automatically long messages
22:35:08 <rikki> thank you flo, you've given me an idea!
22:35:21 <flo> (with a warning that the data is about to be sent to a third party server before doing it)
22:35:24 <flo> rikki: ah?
22:35:32 <rikki> a pastebin of gwt
22:35:37 <rikki> on*
22:35:47 <hicham> ads on the chat window would be more effective
22:36:09 <rikki> basically a pastebin hosted by google using their technology
22:36:22 <flo> hicham: we don't want the application to sent any private data without explicit consent of the user.
22:36:40 <flo> *send
22:36:56 <rikki> also pastebin uploads seem to be slower
22:37:08 <hicham> flo : it is just ads, he will have the choice to click or not
22:37:39 <flo> hicham: if we want to have ads that make money, they need to be selected first to be likely to interest the user
22:38:12 <hicham> flo : ads from the protocols owners
22:38:21 <flo> on pastebin it's possible, because the pastebined content is very likely to interest the user, and google adsense servers can crawl it
22:38:42 <rikki> but what about privacy?
22:38:58 <rikki> not everyone wants there conversations crawled by google
22:39:04 <hicham> will the messages be public ?
22:39:22 <flo> rikki: I think google adsense has a privacy policy about that
22:39:33 <flo> the data crawled by adsense doesn't end up in the search index
22:39:37 <rikki> im not worried about the ads
22:39:48 <flo> it's only used to target the ads
22:39:58 <flo> hicham: yes and no.
22:40:23 <flo> they won't be password protected, but you will need to have the full URL (it will contain a hash) to access it
22:40:27 <flo> like on tinyurl
22:40:29 <clokep> Ads in the message window would make me stop using Instantbird. :P Definitely not an option.
22:41:00 <flo> clokep: any blinking crap in any major part of the UI will get r- ;)
22:41:35 <clokep> flo: But I wanted to use some <blink><marquee></.></.> :)
22:41:50 <flo> put that in your own message theme :)
22:42:45 <flo> by the way, there's a little difference between "ads" and "contextual links"
22:43:56 <flo> if someone talks about a city that you don't know, proposing a wikipedia link, a google map link and a travel agency link (that brings us money if you buy a trip) may be perfectly relevant.
22:45:49 <hicham> one thing i admit about instantbird is that it is very pretty
22:47:00 <flo> compared to other IM clients you have used?
22:49:12 <hicham> yes
22:49:30 <hicham> prettiest of all of them
22:50:50 <flo> that should bring us users! ;)
22:51:09 <clokep> Is there a reasonable way to just execute commands in a shell (xpcshell? I'm not really sure what that is...) easily in Mozilla?
22:53:19 <flo> you mean from JS XPCOM code?
22:54:44 <clokep> Yes.
22:54:57 <clokep> Like to play with the nsISocketTransport stuff without writing up a full file for it.
22:55:18 <clokep> (Or even to write a file and execute the file -- although I guess I could do that by adding an overlay to blist)
22:56:16 <flo> how is nsISocketTransport related to shell commands?
22:56:42 <flo> if you want to execute some JS code, there's the error console for that
22:58:07 <hicham> shell commands are risky
22:58:41 <flo> we should create a shell as a protocol plugin :)
22:58:43 <clokep> I don't want to execute shell commands, I want a shell to execute commands in.
22:59:01 <clokep> flo: A shell to what? :P
22:59:17 <clokep> flo: But the error console is terrible to execute things beyond like 50 characters long, and its only one line.
22:59:19 <flo> execute commands on the local or remote machin
22:59:19 <flo> e
22:59:33 <flo> you can copy/paste :)
23:00:10 <clokep> Yeah, I was thinking about making shell access part of my bot I had been working on (and which is on the back burner. :P)
23:01:08 <clokep> I'll try copy and pasting, but I thought I had issues with line breaks? Maybe not...
23:16:16 <flo> good night! :)
23:25:01 <-- hicham has quit (Client exited)
23:37:25 <clokep> Goodnight.