#instantbird log on 08 26 2010

All times are UTC.

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09:53:30 <Mic|web> flo: what was the problem with "Quiet mode" again?
09:54:03 <Mic|web> I thought I cut the description down to the necessary things ..
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12:46:23 <Walle> Hello
12:54:40 <Walle> I have found a strange behaviour in Instantbird (or maybe firefox???), If I have 2 firefox (3.5.10) windows open, and un-minimize instantbird and then minimize it again (with firefox window 1 open in the background) then open firefox window 2 and un-minimize instantbird again, i get firefox window 1 instead of 2 in the background. 
12:55:17 <Walle> If my eplanation is bad i can try to explanin it better =P  and im running Win XP
12:57:00 <rikki> could u try and reproduce it with another software by mozilla?
12:57:07 <rikki> like thunderbird?
12:57:42 <rikki> because if it keeps doing it, you have found a symptom of a bug int he mozzilla (framework i think it is)
12:57:46 <Walle> Also have Buddy status 0.1.5 and Minimizetotray add-on in instantbird
12:58:20 <Walle> don´t have thunderbird installed right now, downloading it now
12:58:39 <rikki> ok, but i can't help any more then this, i need to get some sleep
12:59:03 <Walle> and its not 100% that its switches more like 60-80%
12:59:27 <rikki> leave a message with flo or talk to him when he is on about this behaviour
12:59:49 <rikki> and when i mean leave a message i mean highlight + message
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13:12:33 <Walle> Just tried thunderbird, program open and a "new mail" window opened. Only thunderbird visible + un-minimize and minimize of instantbird, then open "new mail" window and un-minimize of instantbird = "new mail" windows not visible anymore, so same as with firefox.
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13:32:20 <Mic2> hi
13:33:01 <deOmega> Mic2: hi
13:34:21 <Walle> Hi
13:34:34 <Mic2> Walle: what do you mean by "open window 2" ?
13:35:01 <Walle> Click on it and showing it...
13:35:25 <Walle> its open and running but not visible
13:35:33 <Mic2> ok, so you're not opening a new one but bringing one to the front
13:35:40 <Mic2> ok
13:36:12 <Mic2> Have you tried this with a non-Mozilla program as well? Anything you can minimize and un-minimize ..?
13:36:32 <Walle> Can try now
13:37:38 <Walle> Folders have no problem, trying different programs right now
13:38:00 <Mic2> I think I'm reproducing something like this with two firefox windows and the Editor/Notepad
13:38:16 <Mic2> (Instantbird not involved)
13:38:21 * Mic2 is now known as Mic|web
13:40:03 <Walle> Hmm, same problem with openoffice and instantbird, might be that windows have crappy window management, will try some more
13:43:55 <Mic|web> With two Instantbird windows?
13:44:02 <Mic|web> Like buddy list + conversations?
13:44:24 <Walle> no, two openoffice documents and buddy list
13:44:40 <Mic|web> I can't reproduce with three different windows, but 2*Firefox  + Notepad definitely works
13:44:57 <Mic|web> And clicking/opening/closing tabs can reverse the effect
13:44:59 <Walle> can make it switch document by just un-minimize and then minimize instantbird
13:45:11 <Mic|web> that is the window that comes to the foreground can be exchanged
13:45:26 <Mic|web> Strange behaviour indeed
13:45:55 <Walle> Its not realy a big problem, more annoying when surfing =)
13:46:36 <Mic|web> btw nice to hear that you use "Buddy Status" .. is there anything you'd like to say about it (Ideas, complaints, ..)?
13:47:15 <Mic|web> I get rather little feedback, that's why I'd like to take the opportunity to ask a user ;) 
13:50:09 <Walle> Maybe a small cooldown timer on updates from the same user, some of my friends that have msn changes status like "3-4 times" the same second and that gets strange with a lot of status messages on top of each other, or maybe that messages that show at the same time gets stacked on top each other instead 
13:51:17 <Walle> what I ment to say was simply not have many messages take up the same space at the same time =)
13:51:42 <Mic|web> That's a problem of the notification system I'm using .. I'm going to do something about it
13:52:33 <Mic|web> Currently I'm thinking to skip early changes and only display the actual status of the buddy at the end
13:52:58 <Mic|web> Doesn't help against stacked notifications from different buddies though.
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13:53:22 <Walle> That would be better
13:53:25 <Mic|web> Additionally I'd like to ignore things like fast successive signed-off + signed-on messages
13:53:44 <Walle> those are annoying
13:53:50 <Mic|web> Which has no real value other than indicating that someone seems to have an instable internet connection
13:55:28 <Walle> Another nice thing to have would be a drop down list with the last X (like 20 last) status changes (ex. online, offline, new mail..) at the bottom of the buddy list
13:55:59 <Mic|web> Also on my todo list ..
13:56:07 <Walle> ok, nice =)
13:56:15 <Mic|web> even though I'm not sure if I shouldn't make it a separate extension
13:56:58 <Mic|web> displaying even more events .. like "buddy requests", "conversations started", sign on/off ..
13:57:09 <Mic|web> Like an activity feed
13:57:16 <Mic|web> on social networks
13:58:12 <Mic|web> Could be also fun: a nice timeline graphic showing when users were online, each user having a different color/position ..
13:58:19 <Mic|web> well, there's much to play around with
13:58:38 <Mic|web> I'm back to work now
13:58:54 <Mic|web> If you've got any other question/problems, just come here again
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13:59:16 <Mic|web> If noone is answering, just say what you want to say
13:59:36 <Walle> Have a nice day4
13:59:42 <Mic|web> Someone will read the logs for sure and might have an answer when you return
13:59:56 <Mic|web> hi clokep
14:00:57 <clokep> hi mic|web
14:04:02 <Mic|web> Could someone once say something? I just try Mibbit automatic translation service (this message was written in German)
14:05:15 <Mic|web> clokep: you did not want something similar to create an extension?
14:05:26 <clokep> Mic|web, what?
14:05:37 <clokep> I'm seeing it in English?
14:05:45 <clokep> But its poorly translated. :P
14:06:06 <clokep> Also, for your history ot notifications, something like the Thunderbird activity manager would be good I think.
14:06:21 <Mic|web> I was thinking about something more fancy :P
14:07:15 <Mic|web> Mibbit adds a way to switch between the original message and the translated one.. 
14:08:27 <Mic|web> Yep, there's some bad translations indeed
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14:09:21 <Mic|web> e.g. it can't compensate when there are missing apostrophes :P
14:10:32 <Mic|web> Anyways, I need to go
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14:11:59 <clokep> Bye.
14:12:06 <Mic|web2> flo: maybe you should try Mibbit once ..
14:12:35 <Mic|web2> It can do this "highlighting of all messages of a certain user" for example
14:13:06 <Mic|web2> just hover the name of the user on any line that he's written in
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14:15:16 <clokep> I used Mibbit all summer wihle at work. :) Its where I got some of the ideas for my extensions. ;)
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14:51:47 <flo> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/ I'm not sure I like this new home page :-S
14:52:24 <clokep> I haven't checked it out yet.
14:52:28 <clokep> Eek.
14:52:30 <clokep> That's ugly.
14:53:14 <clokep> And now you have to click on "Applications" to get information on apps, where it used to be the default.
14:56:55 <flo> and it's lists the about:mozilla posts as "application news"
14:57:05 <flo> *it
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15:18:54 <Mic|web> clokep: I noticed the highlighting of a users messages when I wondered by the screen sometimes flickered :D
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15:25:18 <flo> Mic|web: I've commented in the quiet mode bug (bug 470), not sure if it helps or confuses things more ;).
15:25:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=470 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Quiet mode
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15:30:12 <clokep> flo: That sounds exactly like what I was hoping for. :)
15:30:33 <Mic|web> I will comment later.
15:30:34 <Mic|web> gtg
15:30:35 <clokep> And I vaguely remember you mentioning something about it, but no in that much detial.
15:31:03 <flo> I'm sure I've discussed it once with deOmega who was enthusiast about it
15:31:29 <flo> probably also a few times with Even or Idechix or Morian when talking face to face
15:31:34 <Mic|web> Seems like the tags should become a jack-of-all-trades-device thing :D
15:31:40 <flo> (= log no available)
15:32:04 <Mic|web> A pity that there is no proper english word for the german expression "eierlegende Wollmilchsau"
15:32:06 <clokep> You guys don't log all your face-to-face conversation? ;)
15:32:24 <clokep> And what's that mean Mic|web?
15:32:26 <flo> clokep: not yet!
15:33:08 <Mic|web> literally translated it is an "egg-laying wool-milk-pig"
15:33:18 <clokep> (o_O)
15:33:28 <Mic|web> gtg now
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17:06:34 <Mic> flo: while the idea is clear I still have a problem with the tags
17:06:40 <Mic> What exactly are they?
17:07:35 <clokep> I think flo means tags the way GMail uses them, i.e. each user can have no or one or more tags, i.e. a small string of text that groups users together.
17:08:16 * clokep wonders if there is a bug for tags
17:08:28 <Mic> I don't think so
17:08:50 <Mic> Yes, but it doesn't seem to be that simple
17:09:08 <Mic> It seems he wants to attach settings or rights to these tags
17:09:17 <flo> the concept is simple, but we can add lots of usecase on top of it
17:10:03 <clokep> Mic: Ah, sorry you wanted more of th eoverall idea that flo wants to implement, sorry.
17:12:23 <Mic> ok, like settings on a per group basis ..
17:13:32 <clokep> flo: What if I put someone in "friends" and "coworkers" tags, but then some settings conflict?
17:14:25 <flo> I don't know :)
17:14:26 <Mic> What other use cases could there be?
17:15:09 <Mic> Like grouping buddies by tag into a contact
17:15:11 <Mic> ?
17:15:34 <flo> tags are on contacts, not buddies
17:15:54 <Mic> ah ..?
17:15:55 <flo> or if they are on the buddies, the contact inherits them
17:16:41 <flo> the system I'm trying to design should be backward compatible with the current group system
17:17:14 <flo> so the tag of a buddy would be the group it is in on the server
17:17:51 <Mic> 'the tag'?
17:18:28 <flo> how can I clarify this? :)
17:18:36 <Mic> are it 'named tags'?
17:18:47 <Mic> like name: "value"
17:19:02 <Mic> or just an array of tag-values on a buddy/contact/..
17:19:37 <clokep> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_(metadata) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system , right flo?
17:19:47 <flo> it's stored in the blist.sqlite file.
17:20:01 <flo> there's a table containing the tags. Each tag has a numeric id and a name.
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17:20:45 <flo> each purpleAccountBuddy has exactly one tag. The tag id is stored with the AccountBuddy in sqlite
17:20:58 <clokep> Very unrelated: flo: is a tooltip menu (similar to the buddy list one) wanted for the particpants list in chats?
17:20:58 <flo> each buddy is part of exactly one contact.
17:21:04 <flo> each contact has a list of tags.
17:22:11 <flo> clokep: a tooltip or a context menu? (both are probably wanted by the way)
17:22:32 <Mic> so a contact can have buddy-tags + others
17:22:46 <Mic> ?
17:22:55 <flo> yes
17:23:24 <clokep> flo: Both, I filed a bug about context menus already, was thinking of working on a tooltip one though.
17:23:25 <flo> it's not yet clear if the tag being stored on the buddy or in the contact will make a difference in the UI.
17:23:46 <flo> clokep: I'm not sure of how it can be implemented.
17:24:21 <Mic> It sounds strange to me but I guess you know what you're doing
17:24:21 <flo> for IRC I'd like it to send a who commend to the server automatically and populate the tooltip asynchronously with the results, but that may not be easy to do with how libpurple currently handles that...
17:25:18 <flo> Mic: the meaning of what a buddy, a contact and an accountbuddy is ... is not easy to grasp at first ;)
17:25:49 <clokep> flo: The data can't be captured from it or...? I was thinking of just starting with the information stored in the account/accountbuddy.
17:26:05 <flo> once we add tags in the mix, it gets very frustrating when trying to understand (and debug!)
17:26:42 <flo> clokep: for most IRC chatroom participants, "buddy" will be null.
17:26:59 <flo> there's an accountbuddy only if you have added the nick in the buddy list
17:27:31 <clokep> Hmmm...I see, so there's just a list of nicks?
17:27:35 <clokep> (i.e. just strings.)
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17:28:00 <flo> I think there's a bit more, but not much useful data
17:29:08 <flo> clokep: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/purplexpcom/public/purpleIConversation.idl#160
17:30:58 <clokep> flo: I was only on line 130 or so. ;)
17:31:14 <clokep> Would it be worth starting with just that data or no?
17:33:30 <flo> as you like
17:34:08 <flo> I guess it can at least clarify the meaning of the op, half op and voiced icons.
17:35:15 <clokep> flo: What is the problem with the who command? (Or is it probably over my head?)
17:36:06 <flo> if I remember well, libpurple handles it in a way that I didn't like
17:36:13 <flo> I haven't checked recently though :)
17:37:45 <clokep> Haha OK. What aabout chats with other protocols?
17:48:42 <flo> the code is probably the same (except it's not a who command that the server receives)
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17:53:58 <Mic> /who Mic
17:54:10 <Mic> hmm
17:54:40 <clokep> I know. :(
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18:14:06 <Mic> So this buddy-tag says: this buddy is a child of this contact
18:14:43 <Mic> ok.. my idea about the tags was: "I belong to this group"
18:15:08 <Mic> which would be rather  "my parent is" 
18:21:24 <Mic> or can it be both ..?
18:24:10 <Mic> I guess that's the problem I have/had
18:25:01 <Mic> That it's unclear for me whether your tag 'makes on thing' 'a child' or 'a parent' of the other
18:25:29 <Mic> (not in the sense that you can have only one parent or that it would be hierarchically structured by that)
18:25:33 <clokep> I assumed it was a "my parent is" also Mic.
18:26:17 <Mic> I read flo's messages like follows:
18:26:44 <Mic> A contact can have a tag that means: this is one of my buddies (ie 'children')
18:27:10 <Mic> and at the same time some that say: I belong to this group (ie it is one of my 'parents')
18:27:58 <Mic> or is it completely unordered like "we have something in common (the tag) and that's why we belong together)
18:31:01 <clokep> Your description is what it seemed to me also, I think this would benefit from a diagram. :)
18:31:05 <Mic> Theoretically tags lack any hierarchy
18:33:19 <clokep> So...?
18:35:24 <Mic> So .. I need to think about it :P
18:35:31 <Mic> but not tonight.
18:35:34 <Mic> bye
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19:38:29 <deOmega> it shouldbe possible to  copy information out of say a message style  into another and it works d fine, no?
19:38:58 * deOmega notes he has not had any questions answered really l, so he is learning the hard way
19:40:14 <clokep> deOmega: What do you mean by "information"?
19:40:30 <clokep> You're trying to customize a message style? You should be able to copy the whole thing and then make changes to it that you wish.
19:41:04 <deOmega> i am trying to   modify one.. and so   thinking i shoud be able to take what i like from one and  drop it into teh other
19:41:42 <deOmega> there is not some code  that is put into them that forces it to only recognize certain things?
19:41:47 <deOmega> as a rule
19:43:08 <clokep> No, but you probably need to rename it so it doesn't overwrite the other one.
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19:47:05 <deOmega> ok, thank you
19:47:34 <clokep> Does that make sense? I can give more detail.
19:47:41 * clokep is trying to troubleshoot his network and is distracted.
19:47:58 <deOmega> yes.. i understand.. the little u said said alot
19:48:01 <deOmega> thak you
19:49:08 <clokep> No problem!
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20:05:40 <deOmega> have a great day guys
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21:29:36 <flo> I fear Mic's explanation completely confused me about what he understands about what I meant by tags :-S
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21:32:03 <flo> I guess I'll need to document my current plans on the wiki, so that you all can ask for clarifications on the parts that are unclear
21:36:15 <Gizmokid2005> flo: is there any reason the nightly.i.im is over 1.5 months out of date?
21:38:50 <flo> Gizmokid2005: yeah, there's a reason. Not a good one though.
21:38:55 <Gizmokid2005> haha
21:39:09 <flo> we have changed lots of things about the way we generate builds
21:39:16 <Gizmokid2005> I was going to install the latest and greatest then saw it was .2pre that was up and I was like...ummm? .2 is out
21:39:23 <flo> and the system we used to use to generate the "latest-trunk" link no longer works
21:39:59 <Gizmokid2005> aww
21:40:00 <flo> http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/2010/08/
21:41:14 <flo> the mac builder is currently offline, so the latest mac nightly is http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/2010/08/2010-08-11-04-instantbird/instantbird-0.3a1pre.en-US.mac.dmg
21:41:43 <Gizmokid2005> ahh
21:41:48 <Gizmokid2005> that's what I'd go for...
21:42:54 <Gizmokid2005> I'll go with .2 for now I suppose
21:43:51 <flo> by the way, we have a bug about the latest-trunk link no longer working (https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=452)
21:43:54 <instantbot> Bug 452 maj, --, ---, raynaudquentin, NEW, latest-<version> links no longer working since the new buildbot configuration is used
21:45:37 <Gizmokid2005> ahh
21:45:38 <Gizmokid2005> k
21:46:04 <Gizmokid2005> should be able to be handled with some simple shell script for a symlink, no?
21:46:32 <flo> as the first comment (poorly) explains, there are several different cases
21:46:43 <flo> so it's probably something we need to include in the buildbot configuration
21:48:10 <Gizmokid2005> yep, pretty much agree there
21:56:40 <clokep> Hey flo, what's the easiest way to work with the xul/js files? Compile it myself with the flat chrome so I don't have to worry about zipping the jar's or...?
21:58:39 <flo> that's a good solution
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21:59:02 <flo> I often work with compiled code too so it doesn't work for me
21:59:20 <clokep> Hahah.
21:59:41 <clokep> I was just thinking its an awful pain to have to rezip the jar everytime (and I often forget) and th ejar gets locked while the program is open I think...
21:59:57 <clokep> Oh, but the XUL/JS files are just copied to the binary directory, right?
22:00:14 <clokep> So if I make a bunch of changes I could copy the file back to the source directory and commit my change sin hg?
22:00:37 <flo> "th ejar gets locked while the program is open" oh, you are on windows?
22:01:00 <clokep> Yes.
22:01:05 <flo> some of the files are preprocessed, so it won't work for them
22:01:07 <clokep> I could do Linux in a VM, but eh.
22:02:05 <clokep> OK, just wanted to make sure they /all/ weren't. I'll be able to tell if one is pretty easily but just checking if there is a big block of code that I didn't do. :)
22:03:02 <flo> clokep: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/instantbird/content/jar.mn the ones with an * are preprocessed
22:05:45 <clokep> flo: Ah, perfect. Thank you. :)
22:06:09 <flo> you are welcome :)
22:07:17 <clokep> Bookmarked. ;)
22:20:48 <clokep> Ciao for now.
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