#instantbird log on 07 26 2010

All times are UTC.

00:31:26 <clokep> Mic: Skeledrew: Re the multiple notices stacking, wouldn't it be better to add them to a sort of queue then only fire the notification every so often, then show multiple notices at once (a la Thunderbird)?
01:52:47 <skeledrew> i don't think that'd be such a good idea. since the display time is fixed, it'd be a bit difficult for users to read too many notices at once. and if there're ALOT of events, it might take too much space...
01:59:02 <skeledrew> clokep: ^
02:00:25 <clokep> You'd have to limit it to a certain amount, rate the important of each message that is queued and "throw out" the ones that aren't "important enough". A log could be kept (a kin to the activity manager of Thunderbird) that maintains all notifications.
02:01:21 <skeledrew> that's quite a bit of things that have to be taken into account, instead of just stacking them as they come along :)
02:01:55 <clokep> I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'stacking' them.
02:02:24 <skeledrew> like Pidgin's guifications
02:02:33 <clokep> ...never used it, I had notifications.
02:02:41 <clokep> *hate
02:02:57 <clokep> (Or at least all notifications, maybe if I could customize them to people, etc.)
02:03:31 <skeledrew> if a notice exists, put the newest notice on top of it
02:03:42 <skeledrew> lol
02:03:56 <clokep> "on top" like in the "y-direction" or the "z-direction", i.e. "above it" or "in front" of it? ;)
02:03:56 <skeledrew> i like to see who's coming in and going out...
02:04:06 <skeledrew> above
02:04:10 <skeledrew> lol
02:04:39 <skeledrew> right not "buddy status" stacks on z-axis
02:04:45 <skeledrew> *now
02:05:18 <clokep> Ah OK. That's what was confusing me. :) I though tyou mean a stack in the XUL sense of a stack, the z-direction and I was just thinking that...that's useless cause they all overlap each other and you can't see.
02:05:44 <skeledrew> it wasn't made to manage multiple consecutive alerts in a closely timed proximity
02:05:58 <clokep> Right.
02:05:58 <skeledrew> oh
02:06:11 <clokep> Thunderbird used to have that problem.
02:06:15 <skeledrew> well i don't even know what a XUL stack is as yet :)
02:06:19 <clokep> (Each account would overlay the other accounts as you got mail.)
02:06:27 <skeledrew> oh
02:07:02 <clokep> They solved it in a similar way to what I said above I believe?
02:07:17 <skeledrew> k...
02:09:08 <clokep> Buddy pounces could probably easily be made off that code. :)
02:09:25 <skeledrew> that's what i'm thinking
02:09:32 <skeledrew> i've already started :)
02:09:57 <clokep> Awesome.
02:10:17 <skeledrew> hmm. my system's kinda in an inconsistent state. i accidentally shut down and hibernated at the same time (power button and custom script) rushing out. just returned to see my system still running but kinda frozen with most of the apps closed...
02:10:18 <skeledrew> gonna restart
02:10:40 <clokep> I'm going to sleep.
02:10:42 <clokep> 'night.
02:10:48 <skeledrew> k
02:10:49 <skeledrew> night
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08:03:14 <Mic> morning
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08:12:57 <Mic> clokep, skeledrew: I'm aware of this problem and not sure yet how I'll fix it
08:13:40 <Mic> I haven't looked closely at the problem but I think libpurple sends "too many notifications" for my taste
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08:15:00 <Mic> e.g. I've got the impression that "becoming idle" is a notification and that it sends another for changing the status message in the process
08:16:20 <Mic> skeledrew: what are "buddy pounces" exactly?
08:16:36 <Mic> Sending a message when someone comes online?
09:22:22 * Even just added reply To Nick + Buddy Status as recommanded on the AIO website.
09:22:43 <Even> Thanks Mic for your addon :)
09:23:05 <Mic> Thanks for your review:)
09:23:15 <Even> That's nothing ^^
09:23:32 <Even> ^^
09:24:49 <Mic> You even made it recommended? :S
09:24:58 <Even> Yep.
09:25:09 <Mic> I'm not sure if it lives up to the expectations..
09:25:29 <Even> That's more something like "we should show we have people doing cool things"
09:25:31 <Mic> I mean there are these multiple notifications in some cases which don't shed a good light on it imo
09:25:48 <Mic> ok
09:26:04 <Even> When I added Vertical Tabs to the recommended addons there were some issues with it too.
09:26:24 <Even> I think it was worth it.
09:26:58 <Even> You should expect to have much more users to try it and give you their feeling about it now :)
09:27:32 <Even> If you make it better, people are going to be okay with the current state of things.
09:27:40 <Mic> hehe, worst case: "nice icon .. sucks otherwise" ;)
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11:34:56 <Mic> clokep: the options menu of Auto Link is unusual in my opinion
11:36:37 <clokep> There is no options menu. Or if there is there isn't supposed to be. :)
11:37:06 <Mic> It's accessible from the add-ons manager
11:37:19 <Mic> By the usual "Preferences" button
11:37:19 <clokep> Eek. Must've not disabled that before my last release. :(
11:37:36 <clokep> Right, I was working on it before my other release but meant to disable it. :-\
11:37:43 <clokep> What's "unusual" about it though?
11:37:52 * clokep is about to go to work and will be back soon.
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11:46:29 <Mic> There are some things we are most likely going to write over and over again for extensions
11:46:48 <Mic> Like observing certain events, managing our preferences
11:47:30 <Mic> checking if we want to do or do not want to do things depending on the conversation/protocol/channel/.. 
11:48:12 <Mic> Maybe we should think about optimizing this by providing some pre-made functions or pieces of code that people could copy/paste for their extensions
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12:03:21 <clokep> Mic: I agree.
12:03:43 <clokep> It'd be nice to have a premade XUL element for filtering by conversation/protocol/channel.
12:04:02 <clokep> Its just a complicated concept and I'm not sure you can really make a good UI for it.
12:06:21 <clokep> So do you mean that the fact that Auto Link has/needs options is unusual or the way I started to design the window?
12:08:01 <flo> Mic: maybe we should try to include some re-usable modules by default, rather than encouraging people to copy paste the code (and the bugs!) :)
12:08:27 <clokep> flo: I agree! (Why I suggested XBL above as opposed to sample code.)
12:08:52 <flo> I was thinking about some JSM modules.
12:08:58 <flo> especially for handling some preferences.
12:09:08 <flo> the observer to update something when a preference value changes
12:09:25 <flo> I think we have the same code handling that in several places already, and probably even more soon
12:10:50 <clokep> Makes sense. :)
12:11:00 <Mic> clokep: the menus are .. "special" (are they "real menus"?) in the sense that there's stuff that seems to be there for documentation purposes and not because they are options to choose from
12:11:30 <clokep> Mic: I was just playing with those menus a bit. I'm probably going to make a ?-icon in the top right with a panel that shows on mouseover instead.
12:11:39 <Mic> There's the options "Close menu" as well
12:11:45 <Mic> *option
12:12:21 <clokep> I was thinking about having it so that when you click on one it inserts it into the regular expression, but then decided that the menu would be too massive (i.e. I'd have to split up all the menu options that currently include multiple items, like \d, \w, \s)
12:12:29 <Mic> Are they intended to be inserted on clicking?
12:12:37 <clokep> ^  ^
12:12:47 <Mic> ah, I should read before posting ;)
12:12:56 <clokep> Same time. :)
12:13:24 <clokep> But that was my original intent, but its silly to make regex by "point-and-click". They're not meant to be able to be written that way.
12:13:26 <Mic> The context menu on the list shows on pressed left mouse button
12:14:31 <Mic> Is this the general interface or are you planning to make it the advanced settings and a simpler for the less technical-interested users?
12:14:58 <clokep> Mic: The tree doesn't even exist anymore in the current carnation. I have a new version image on the wiki.
12:15:09 * clokep is finding it.
12:15:34 <clokep> Well the extension is for "advanced technical" users in the first place (as I see it), so there's not really going to be a simpler menu...
12:15:49 <Mic> Which could be click and point in the sense of creating things like "(Word:'Bug')(Number with 1-5 digits)"
12:16:25 <clokep> But then I'm simply rewriting the concept of a regular expression into readable words.
12:16:53 <Mic> Which would make it lots more readable for anyone except regexp-pro ;)
12:17:11 <clokep> Mic; https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Auto-link-prefs-teaser.png
12:18:40 <clokep> Not sure if that counts as "more" or "less" complicated. ;)
12:18:47 <Mic> I wonder how good such a readable regexp display could work
12:18:48 <flo> clokep: on the screenshot the vertical "alignments" between the labels and the textbox seem terrible. Have you just forgotten the align="baseline" on the hbox, or is there yet another alignment bug in Mozilla?
12:19:15 <clokep> Also that's kind of a bad display of it...the top box is actually a richlist box that would show a few of those...and the stuff below that was my testing thigns out and is garbage. :)
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12:20:30 <clokep> flo: I wasn't worrying about that yet. Its fixed in my code using "-moz-box-align: center;" is that better/worse then using align=baseline?
12:20:53 <flo> is -moz-box-align: baseline; usable?
12:21:18 <clokep> -moz-box-align: center
12:21:24 <flo> baseline would be cleaner than center
12:21:33 <clokep> baseline is bottom?
12:21:46 <flo> center aligns the whole elements, baseline aligns the bottom of the text, not of the element.
12:22:01 <Mic> https://developer.mozilla.org/de/CSS/vertical-align
12:22:59 <Mic> ahm, that was wrong .. https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/-moz-box-align
12:23:00 <flo> Mic: it seems that only applies to HTML elements
12:23:10 <flo> (vertical align)
12:23:14 <clokep> Yes, vertical-align does not work in XUL, I can attest to that. :)
12:23:58 <clokep> flo: Ah, I see the difference (from https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XUL/align)
12:24:13 <clokep> So If I put a larger element the text labels still line up. :)
12:24:27 <flo> yes
12:24:40 <flo> isn't the textbox already larger than the label?
12:24:55 <clokep> Yes, but centering them makes it look fine.
12:25:14 <clokep> Let me get a better picture haha.
12:29:44 <clokep> To specifiy a profile by location is -P /path/to/profile ?
12:40:32 <clokep> Reload https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Auto-link-prefs-teaser.png :)
12:41:27 <clokep> It needs a bit more styling (borders between list items, etc.)
12:42:01 <clokep> And I'd ideally make it so the non-focused items don't show editable form items but just "information" and when you click it then the items pop out (kindof like the accoutn manager).
12:46:53 <clokep> (Also switched that to align=baseline, flo, but it looks the same as what I had before.)
12:57:34 <flo> :)
13:04:06 <clokep> Mic: Does that look a bit more organized?
13:04:35 * flo thinks today may be a good time to merge the js-proto branch
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13:08:17 <clokep> I think that'd be pretty awesome. :)
13:08:39 <flo> well, if it goes right, that will make no difference ;)
13:10:54 <Mic> clokep: it's only about the box with the border you said?
13:11:32 <clokep> Mic: I'm not sure what you mean. The updated version shows "three" patterns (which are all pretty much the same), but there's no border separating them.
13:11:34 <clokep> So its a little confusing.
13:12:36 <Mic> ah, .. caching problems ;)
13:13:41 <Mic> username means: your own user name?
13:15:17 <Mic> Does the syntax highlighting checkbox need to be rule specific?
13:16:05 <clokep> Yes, username refers to your own name. I realized a few minutes ago it was ambigious. :-\
13:16:13 <Mic> If not then it could become a switch in the menu and you'd have more space for less ui controls 
13:16:29 <clokep> Syntax highlighting is part of each regular expression element the way I did it, but I could make it not rule specific I'm sure.
13:17:20 <Mic> What about another menu containing the flags?
13:17:43 <clokep> flags are specific to each one.
13:17:43 <Mic> It could  even have some descriptive text then (without having trouble concerning space)
13:17:52 <Mic> I meant like the protocol menu
13:18:07 <clokep> Tooltips will be used for descriptive text.
13:18:43 <Mic> What about reversing the order of the top and bottom line?
13:19:03 <clokep> I'm not against that, but what's the reasoning?
13:19:20 <Mic> If (username / room ) matches, then 
13:19:23 <clokep> To me the actual pattern is the "title".
13:19:30 <clokep> Hmm...true.
13:19:30 <Mic>  .. use pattern "..."
13:23:05 <Mic> Against what is the Buddy/Room name matched?
13:23:36 <Mic> The alias of buddies?
13:24:28 <clokep> conversation.account.name
13:24:34 <clokep> Should probably be that or the alias
13:24:57 <Mic> I meant the buddy/room name part
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13:25:28 <clokep> Oops, sorrt: its the "name" parameter.
13:25:31 <Mic> isn't "account"  the local account?
13:25:33 <clokep> (of the conversation)
13:25:39 <clokep> Yes.
13:25:45 <Mic> what about "conversation name" ?
13:26:03 <clokep> I like it. :)
13:26:16 <clokep> (I also changed "User Name" to "Account Name", I'm not sure if that's better. :-/_
13:27:22 <Mic> what if someone leaves the fields empty?
13:27:44 <Mic> Would it match anything or nothing?
13:27:54 <clokep> Nothing.
13:27:59 <clokep> The defaults will be .*
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13:28:46 <clokep> (Although if no protocols are selected it will automagically match against all, I could probably do the same for the other patterns.)
13:29:16 <Mic> you can check onpopupshowing and put a checkmark on the All item
13:29:35 <Mic> (removing it if someone choses any protocol)
13:30:10 <Mic> hmm, even though I'm not sure if it works to change things on a displaying popup
13:30:14 <clokep> Right, but that's stored as an empty array instead of adding every situation to it.
13:30:16 <Mic> I think we ran into such problems once
13:32:31 <Mic> It you don't mind I would create a xul mockup based on what you have? Would be quicker than trying to explain my ideas;)
13:32:49 <clokep> Yeah that's fine.
13:32:58 <Mic> The idea with a edit and display mode sounds good imo
13:33:12 <clokep> I stole it from Instantbird. ;)
13:33:29 <Mic> The single extra click to select a rule would be compensated by a clearer overview most likely
13:33:52 <clokep> That's what I was thinking too.
13:34:08 <Mic> How do you set the urlfor links btw?
13:35:26 <clokep> I just added that. Want a new image?
13:36:15 <Mic> sure
13:43:59 <clokep> OK, here's more of what I'm thinking: https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Auto-link-prefs-teaser-full.png
13:44:08 <clokep> Thanks for all the feedback btw. :)
13:44:18 <clokep> I flipped the first two rows like you said (and added another. ;))
13:46:08 <Mic> :)
13:46:30 <clokep> The URL/link use the standard $ notation for regular expression replaces $[groups to replace]
13:46:42 <clokep> or $& matches the whole string.
13:48:30 <Mic> What if you'd let people set a name for each rule and display only the name if not in edit-mode?
13:49:00 <Mic> It's just an idea
13:49:11 <clokep> Hmmm...possibly, is any of the other information important enough to display?
13:49:28 <Mic> depends on how good the user choses the name ;)
13:49:42 <clokep> :)
13:51:04 <clokep> (Btw the "Help!" label opens a popup panel that includes the information that used to be in a menu.)
13:53:01 <Mic> I need to go now
13:53:09 <clokep> Thanks again.
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13:53:24 <Mic> No worries
14:15:51 <Mic> bye
14:15:57 <clokep> Bye!
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14:45:57 * skeledrew 's system is dead :(
14:45:58 <skeledrew> need to recover my files and stuff...
14:47:31 <skeledrew> hmm. the buddy status can be improved by making the sign on and available alerts into links that open the convo window...
14:55:24 <clokep> That'd be pretty neat.
14:55:40 <clokep> (Really no reason all of them can't be.)
14:55:47 <clokep> Does it show alerts for the active conversation?
15:05:18 <flo> Just received on contact@ib.org:
15:05:18 <flo> Hey Guys,
15:05:19 <flo> I just wanted to say thanks for creating InstantBird.
15:05:19 <flo> I've been looking for an IM client for Linux that did not have copious amounts of library dependencies, and I didn't have time to develop one myself.
15:05:19 <flo> Congrats, on writing a simple, portable, and incredibly useful IM client that I've been happily using the last couple of weeks.
15:05:19 <flo> Thank you!
15:06:08 <clokep> I guess its not /all/ support questions. ;)
15:06:30 <flo> ;)
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16:09:32 <Mic> clokep, skeledrew: that's on the todo list already :D
16:12:08 <skeledrew> ah. k
16:14:01 <skeledrew> flo: would you really want to open a convo when someone isn't available? :)
16:14:36 <flo> skeledrew: why is this message targeted at me?
16:15:14 <skeledrew> hmm. my bad
16:15:35 <skeledrew> clokep: ^^
16:15:48 <skeledrew> darned smiley
16:16:03 <skeledrew> *^ ^
16:17:11 <skeledrew> flo: gotta be a way to specify you want a message you send received raw and unsmileyized...
16:18:01 <skeledrew> though that'd depend on the receiver's client...
16:18:04 <skeledrew> pity
16:21:32 <clokep> skeledrew: Most likely not, but there's no reason /not/ to allow you to. Plus it'll take out some logic from the program.
16:21:50 <clokep> Also maybe you miss them signing on and then they go away so you want to open the window and leave them a message or something ,etc.
16:21:53 <clokep> Not totally absurd. :)
16:22:46 <skeledrew> clokep: for that you set  pounce :)
16:23:04 <skeledrew> *set a
16:25:31 <clokep> OK, well then my argument is just that there's no reason to put logic in to check what type of message it is when it can just be linked for all and adds a b it of functionality for those that want it.
16:26:17 <skeledrew> Mic: if you're going to continue using the popup alert for the notifications, i suggest you setup a queue that consumes the alerts and a method to show the next notice while the queue isn't empty. to fix the overlapping issue (it's hitting me pretty bad)
16:27:18 <skeledrew> hmm. near useless functionality :)
16:28:39 <clokep> Perhaps near useless, but if it simplifies the code, then why not?
16:28:47 <clokep> skeledrew: Sounds like what I suggested last night. ;)
16:28:55 <skeledrew> lol
16:28:55 <skeledrew> kk
16:33:30 <skeledrew> Mic: also, it would be nice to know the protocol that triggered the alert. you could either put it in the displayname: "Mic on GMail", etc (easier) and/or make new icons which combine the status and protocol icons (flashier) ;)
16:39:57 <clokep> And the buddy icon. ;)
16:42:30 <skeledrew> lol. sounds kinda overloaded for a little alert :)
16:42:34 <Mic> Halftransparent
16:42:41 <Mic> overlayed with a Persona.
16:42:44 <Mic> scnr
16:43:13 <Mic> I'd like to show the protocol icon or the buddy icon .. 'but' ..
16:43:26 <skeledrew> would be so much easier if the alert supported multiple icons...
16:43:33 <Mic> .. I can't stack them using the the alert service
16:43:44 <Mic> so I either need to replace it or think of something else
16:44:03 <Mic> Right now the status as icon seemed most reasonable
16:44:06 <skeledrew> combine the icons to one image
16:44:09 <clokep> :(
16:44:10 <clokep> I think so.
16:44:21 <Mic> I don't like the queuing idea as it is
16:44:54 <Mic> Having a few alerts could lead to jamming the queue
16:45:10 <skeledrew> ?
16:45:14 <Mic> I rather think of discarding older events if a new one occurs for the same buddy
16:45:27 <skeledrew> sounds good :)
16:46:28 <Mic> well, let's see
16:46:37 <skeledrew> but it sounds as if you'd have to either keep track of the buddies in the queue, or scan it each time
16:46:43 <Mic> If I could make a borderless window myself, it would be even better
16:46:55 <skeledrew> that'd be perfect
16:47:07 <skeledrew> isn't that possible?
16:47:10 <Mic> Maybe I could abuse a panel to achieve the same effect
16:47:14 <Mic> I don't know yet
16:47:39 <skeledrew> or inherit from the alert
16:47:46 <skeledrew> if possible
16:47:52 <Mic> Let's see
16:47:53 <clokep> You should be able to.
16:48:18 <skeledrew> clokep: inherit? or borderless window?
16:49:06 <clokep> Borderless window.
16:49:14 <skeledrew> k
16:52:13 <skeledrew> this looks a bit promising re inheritnce: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=329710
16:52:22 <Mic> clokep: can't you put the flags behind the pattern and toggle their outlook them if someone clicks it?
16:52:49 <Mic> To change the color between "WindowText" for enabled  and "GrayText" for disabled?
16:52:56 <clokep> Mic: We talking abotu auto-link again? And you mean typing /some.+pattern/gi ?
16:53:33 <Mic> Yep, maybe surround the pattern box by slashes to give it "the look" 
16:53:55 <clokep> Yeah, that'll be an option for display.
16:53:59 <clokep> But right now they're check boxes.
16:54:11 <Mic> the flags would go behind and be either enabled or disabled and could be toggled by clicking
16:54:14 <clokep> (And I'd have it so that if you type the flags they would check automatically.)
16:54:45 <clokep> Right. The string representing the flags would directly affect the checkboxes and vice versa.
16:54:48 <Mic> ah, well, my problem again: I think there is too much UI for too little space
16:55:07 <clokep> Perhaps.
16:55:53 <Mic> Would you mind to pastebin your options window? I'd like to try ..
16:57:05 <Mic> I find it interesting because I think it's not an easy thing to get a good solution for such a task
16:57:08 <clokep> Mic: Re: Editing the alert window http://markmail.org/message/3jnxk2gh4v6th3ng
16:57:29 <clokep> I can paste bin my options window, but itsa ll hidden behind bindings.
16:58:18 <Mic> hmm, ok
16:58:27 <clokep> Well.
16:58:37 <clokep> My sample code is still there (my mockup): http://pastebin.instantbird.com/331
16:59:18 <Mic> Thanks for the link, I guess it will be useful
16:59:24 <skeledrew> Mic: custom borderless windows are possible: http://www.developerfriendly.com/node/25
16:59:34 <Mic> I think I'd rather try to create an own window
16:59:48 <Mic> but it might help to understand how the alerts are done
16:59:58 <skeledrew> http://www.developerfriendly.com/projects/WidgetRunner
17:00:01 <Mic> (if skeledrew didn't find something better)
17:00:46 <skeledrew> project's obsolete, but the code's there
17:01:38 <Mic> Let's see
17:01:55 <Mic> I'll look into it and will try to make Instantbird more awesome
17:02:06 <Mic> (sounding like one of these Mozilla interns..) 
17:02:10 <Mic> scnr
17:02:29 <clokep> Mic: Only thing about using Borderless windows, etc. is that I'm not sure it would use growl, etc. then on Mac/Linux?
17:02:46 <clokep> Which the alert service does.
17:02:49 <Mic> I know
17:03:42 <Mic> I think that's not the problem .. should be possible to decide what to use (even though it would suffer from the limitations named before)
17:03:59 <skeledrew> get your code on :D
17:04:00 <skeledrew> http://code.google.com/p/developerfriendly/source/browse/#svn/trunk/mozilla/xulrunner/widget-runner/chrome/content
17:04:04 <Mic> Is it even using Growl/libnotify(NotifyOSD?)  somewhere?
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17:04:38 <Mic> I thought it's not an option for the Mozilla framework because they think clickable alerts are absolutely necessary
17:05:03 <Mic> I've never used (ie clicked) them though
17:05:27 <skeledrew> WebMailNotifier :)
17:05:35 <clokep> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XPCOM_Interface_Reference/nsIAlertsService#Methods says it uses growl
17:06:02 <clokep> (Mic or was that question directed to the code skeledrew posted?)
17:06:20 <Mic> nope, it was for you
17:06:47 <clokep> Are growl alerts not clickable?
17:07:38 <Mic> I've never seen them
17:08:40 <Mic> NotifyOSD alerts aren't
17:09:28 <Mic> And I wouldn't be surprised if they were an exact copy:P
17:10:04 * Mic : note to myself: stop trolling
17:12:46 <Mic> NO, not really
17:12:53 <Mic> The problem reduces to ..
17:12:57 <clokep> If what were an exact copy?
17:13:09 <Mic> setting hidechrome="true" for the window.
17:13:15 <Mic> this can't be real ..
17:13:23 <Mic> bah.
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17:16:27 <Mic> Anyone interested in a screenshot of a chromeless about window? :S
17:16:49 <skeledrew> lol
17:16:52 <skeledrew> sure
17:17:05 <Mic> lol, now I really have to do one :D
17:18:26 <clokep> I am interested actually. :P
17:18:41 <skeledrew> to think it was that easy...
17:20:07 <Mic> https://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Window-hidden-chrome.png
17:20:37 <skeledrew> :D
17:20:39 <Mic> well, it's fine. The result is what matters and if it is one attribute to set, then even better :)
17:20:48 <skeledrew> yep
17:21:12 <clokep> Looks nice.
17:21:38 <clokep> Amazing that its that easy haha.
17:21:43 <skeledrew> it's perfect. the possibilities are entless :)
17:21:53 <skeledrew> *endless
17:22:32 * Mic is afraid to see only chrome- and titlebarless windows from now on
17:23:12 <Mic> flo: would be perfect for the minimal buddy list
17:23:18 <skeledrew> i'm thinking of going wild with this and applying it to all windows :P
17:23:38 <Mic> skeledrew: that's exactly what I was scared of
17:23:45 <skeledrew> hehe
17:24:07 * clokep doesn't like chrome-less windows. :P
17:24:13 <clokep> Although for notifications I think it would be fine.
17:24:23 <skeledrew> just think about it. this is the perfect opportunity for skinning...
17:24:25 <clokep> (Maybe even the about Window)
17:25:54 <Mic> let's see if it is possible to toggle this with a shortcut
17:26:44 <skeledrew> sure. just like every other attribute. but would an existing window just change like that?
17:26:46 <skeledrew> hmm
17:27:04 * skeledrew is thinking of the possibilities
17:28:37 <Mic> skeledrew: that's what I want to find out
17:29:01 <skeledrew> k
17:29:03 <clokep> Mic: To make a richlistbox show only x number of rows you just add rows="x", right?
17:29:34 <skeledrew> hmm. a quick window with a toggle button should do...
17:29:36 <Mic> yes
17:30:46 <clokep> Hmmm...it doesn't seem to be working for me. The prefwindow just stretches.
17:32:55 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
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17:35:37 <Mic> It works setting hidechrome with DOMi
17:37:45 <Mic> both setting it to true and false
17:38:01 <Mic> there are some graphics problems though
17:38:50 <Mic> because the window changes in size, minimizing and restoring helps
17:39:03 <skeledrew> well there isn't much need at this time to hide/show a visible window's chrome is there?
17:39:30 <skeledrew> just need a bit a bit of animation code now :)
17:40:52 <Mic> My God, what have I done?
17:41:05 <skeledrew> lolz
17:41:09 <skeledrew> :))
17:41:58 <skeledrew> i think you released frankenstein :D
17:42:41 <Mic> This is madness.
17:43:02 <skeledrew> lmao
17:43:47 * skeledrew 's mind is going at light speed
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17:46:13 <skeledrew> i think this is what's wreaking havoc on the message length:
17:46:13 <skeledrew>         // Append status message only if one of the messages before 
17:46:13 <skeledrew>         //  was added and status itself is not empty
17:46:13 <skeledrew>         if(messageText != ""){
17:46:13 <skeledrew>           if(aSubject.status != "")
17:46:13 <skeledrew>             messageText += ": " + aSubject.status;
17:46:13 <skeledrew>           else
17:46:13 <skeledrew>             messageText += ".";
17:46:13 <skeledrew>         }
17:46:14 <skeledrew>       }
17:46:27 <skeledrew> it's not MSN friendly
17:47:19 <skeledrew> Mic: ^
17:48:21 <Mic> It displays the status message as well, yes?
17:48:34 <Mic> btw use pastebin if it's more than a few lines
17:48:47 <skeledrew> and runs the alerter arcross the screen in the process...
17:48:47 <Mic> Are MSN status messages any different?
17:49:13 <skeledrew> well i'm not seeing any Yahoo statuses
17:49:27 <Mic> Are people abusing them to write essays there?
17:49:36 <skeledrew> kind of
17:49:43 <Mic> The ones I saw were a few words at best
17:50:09 <skeledrew> tell that to some of my contacts...
17:50:10 <Mic> I could try cropping them if they're too long
17:50:24 <skeledrew> yeah
17:50:26 <clokep> Afterward just do messageText.substr(0,messageText.length < 80 ? messageText.length : 80);
17:50:43 <Mic> I think we have a maximum length of 50 characters on the alerts for messages in the background
17:50:44 <skeledrew> but couldn't it be wrapped with "\n"s?
17:50:52 <clokep> Or better: messageText.substr(0,messageText.length < 77 ? messageText.length : 77) + "...";
17:51:00 <clokep> No, you can't wrap text in the alert service.
17:51:17 <skeledrew> that sucks
17:51:31 <skeledrew> more reason to use the borderless window :)
17:52:11 * clokep thinks we shuld fork the alert service. ;0
17:52:26 <skeledrew> hmm
17:52:41 <skeledrew> start forking that, what else will we fork?
17:52:56 <clokep> :P
17:53:03 <flo> Mic: hidechrome="true" is what I had in mind when talking about detaching a group of the buddy list and putting it as part of the desktop
17:53:06 <skeledrew> maybe 90% of XPCOM if we aren't comfy with it...
17:53:15 <flo> Growl notifications are clickable
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17:57:54 <flo> implementing a decent version of the alertservice for Windows would be a good idea
17:58:35 <flo> on Linux if libnotify is in good working conditions the alertservice uses it, and on Mac it uses Growl
17:59:15 <flo> the poor XUL popup is only used on Windows and on linux when libnotify is not satisfying (not clickable, ...)
18:00:04 <clokep> And the Windows notification system isn't really usable for something like this, its meant for system alerts.
18:00:29 <clokep> AFAIK.
18:01:16 * clokep is feeling very dumb, how do I set a class in JavaScript? menuitem.setAttribute("className", "menuitem-iconic"); ?
18:01:39 <flo> the attribute is "class" ;)
18:01:45 <flo> the property is className
18:02:49 <clokep> Bah.
18:03:22 <clokep> Thanks.
18:03:24 <skeledrew> heh
18:04:30 <clokep> It can't be used with type=checkbox,c an it? :( Grrr.
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18:05:47 <Mic> skeledrew: thanks for reporting the problem
18:06:24 <skeledrew> np
18:07:38 <Mic> I hardcoded it to 50 characters on the status message itself
18:09:53 <skeledrew> k
18:10:22 <skeledrew> but why include the status message anyway?
18:13:09 <Mic> It's intended to give an idea of the status of the buddy, so I think it's worth including it
18:13:24 <skeledrew> oh yeah. i could really go for incoming messages in those alerts if the convo isn't selected and focused...
18:13:28 <Mic> Even though many clients just send things like "Available", "Occupied", ..
18:13:39 <skeledrew> hmm
18:13:55 * skeledrew is checking if this is a user pref
18:14:13 <Mic> It's on the General pane of the Options
18:14:13 <flo> Mic: isn't that the status type, and not the status message?
18:14:49 <skeledrew> it's not there :(
18:14:50 <Mic> Ib seems to send it as status message as well
18:15:08 <Mic> skeledrew: "Notify of messages received.."
18:15:13 <skeledrew> i want to remove those messages completely
18:15:54 <skeledrew> Mic: no. the message itself
18:16:16 <skeledrew> hmm. running into that issue again
18:16:26 <skeledrew> wrapping required
18:16:29 <Mic> I can add an option for it
18:18:00 <skeledrew> cuz sometimes i'll be in the middle of something(s) and chatting, and check a convo only to see the person just acknowledged what was said or something. can be a bit of a time waster
18:18:31 <Mic> skeledrew: I'm not sure what you mean
18:19:21 <Mic> It feels like we're jumping from the status-message-too-long problem to notifications-of-messages-received-in-background forth and back
18:20:40 <skeledrew> eg. i'm chatting to several persons, and/or working too. someone says "ok", "no problem", etc, i don't need to actually check the message if there's nothing to reply to
18:23:32 <Mic> We also have alerts for this, it can be activated from Instantbirds Options dialog->General->Notify of messages..."
18:24:02 <skeledrew> basically, i'm looking for a clone of libnotify functionality...
18:24:18 <clokep> Is there a way to take a style from a different element and apply it to my own element? I.e. apply a textbox class to a label? :-D I know that sounds absurd but...
18:24:37 <flo> clokep: -moz-appearance
18:24:52 <flo> that's what I do in the buddy list for the aliases
18:26:49 <clokep> flo: Only kind of what I want, but I'll see. :)
18:26:52 <clokep> Thanks.
18:28:51 <skeledrew> Mic: in Digsby, you can actually have a convo in the notifier by focusing and keeping your mouse over it. i think it was pretty cool...
18:29:24 <flo> skeledrew: I think someone should do an add-on for that, so that we don't get pressured to implement it by default.
18:30:24 <skeledrew> it could be added to buddy status, long as the alerter is changed to a borderless window...
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18:38:29 <Mic> no
18:38:48 <skeledrew> lolz
18:38:53 <skeledrew> oh my
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18:39:37 <skeledrew> i'm already thinking of it anyway
18:39:46 <flo> Mic: :)
18:40:45 <skeledrew> but i see the issue of it clashing with buddy status for user attention...
18:41:06 <skeledrew> kinda counter-productive
18:41:51 <clokep> Any reason that background-color: transparent wouldn't work on a textbox?
18:42:21 <skeledrew> clokep: why would you?
18:43:06 <skeledrew> a textbox is a pretty simple control IMO. only for the most basic input and no fancy stuff to it...
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18:43:10 <Mic> skeledrew: in contrary! It's for different target groups, so we actually cover more interests, which is positive
18:43:12 <clokep> skeledrew: Because I have background colors from an element behind it I need to use.
18:43:31 <Mic> oh, I won't argue on this. Buddy status is not intended for such a thing.
18:43:39 <Mic> *argue anymore
18:43:45 <clokep> And its for "basic" input, but I extended it into more. :)
18:44:17 <skeledrew> Mic: point taken. i'll put it in my list. when i recover my files...
18:44:17 <skeledrew> clokep: oh
18:44:18 <flo> clokep: I think there's a white background on the HTML "input" element which is inside the textbox XBL binding
18:44:54 <Mic> We need Personas for the buddylist btw
18:44:55 <clokep> flo: Hmm...thanks. The style sheet for "plain" seems to just set the background transparent but maybe it does something else I'm not seeing.
18:45:37 <clokep> Ah, probably the -moz-appearance: none. :)
18:45:58 <flo> clokep: that will work, but change more than the background
18:46:21 <clokep> Exactly. I don't want to use style of plain because it changes a lot.
18:46:24 <flo> oh, it's a plain textbox already
18:50:12 <clokep> I don't want it to be though. :) I want it to have the right margins, etc. just not the background.
18:50:18 * clokep goes to look at the textbox binding.
18:50:30 <flo> diffstat for the js-proto branch merge:  68 files changed, 3965 insertions(+), 5066 deletions(-)
18:50:39 <flo> not sure I want to review all of this before pushing :-]
18:51:03 <clokep> Just push it and let the testers find the errors.
18:51:13 * clokep won't be updating tonight. ;)
18:52:11 <flo> how is this supposed to work if testers don't update? ;)
18:52:36 <flo> I've reviewed all of this before pushing each changeset to the branch
18:53:09 <flo> and I've just compiled a build on the branch and checked that is works right both with my debug profile (which is lots of crappy accounts of various protocols in it) and a new profile.
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18:54:17 <clokep> Why woudl you review all the changes again then? Were there any merge issues?
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18:55:14 <flo> clokep: no.
18:55:34 <flo> I just like to have a "fresh memory" of what I'm actually pushing to testers
18:55:45 <flo> so that if something breaks I can quickly guess what has caused it
18:56:04 <flo> the merge happened without any issue :)
18:56:12 <tymerkaev> Mic: ping?
18:56:18 <clokep> Ah, I see. Well then...get started. ;)
18:56:44 <Mic> tymerkaev: yes?
18:56:50 <clokep> flo: the html input apparently inherits the background from the textbox...
18:56:58 <flo> clokep: I'm just going to push it
18:57:14 <tymerkaev> mic: do you need translation for 0.1.3?
18:57:51 <clokep> I'm sure it'll be fine. :) I've actually used the js-proto on my testing account for a week now? No issues.
18:57:51 <Mic> I'll let you know as soon as I've got it ready
18:57:55 <clokep> I've only logged in with a few accounts though.
18:58:37 <Mic> Depending on how big the changes are I might even jump to 0.2 ;)
18:59:06 <tymerkaev> Mic: I just received update by addonsmgr.
18:59:23 <tymerkaev> it can be added now, right?
18:59:34 <flo> clokep: yeah, it worked fine during all my tests. I'm just not sure of if I may have changed some things that were used by some addons
18:59:42 <flo> I guess we will know tomorrow :)
19:00:05 <Mic> flo: btw I've got problems undoing the hiding of the newtab button ..
19:00:16 <Mic> .. is there any magic that I don't know? ;)
19:00:44 <flo> I don't remember how this work
19:00:53 <flo> and I've got to go (dinner). Sorry
19:03:57 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/31a037eea8b5 - Florian Quèze - Merge the js-proto branch.
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19:04:22 <gayboy> :)
19:04:41 <-- gayboy has quit (Quit: Leaving)
19:09:17 <clokep> That's a massive patch!
19:11:11 <skeledrew> Mic: oh yeah. some minor corrections to your strings:
19:11:12 <skeledrew> is back now -> has returned/is no longer away
19:11:12 <skeledrew> is mobile now -> is now mobile
19:11:12 <skeledrew> is away now -> is away
19:11:12 <skeledrew> is idle now -> is idle (BTW where's "is no longer idle"?)
19:11:12 <skeledrew> has changed /their/ name
19:11:12 <skeledrew> :)
19:12:16 <Mic> I can't tell which status someone had before so I can't say is "no longer idle"
19:12:55 <skeledrew> i see
19:13:42 <skeledrew> don't wanna sound like a scratched record, but i think Pidgin and/or Digsby does...
19:14:11 <Mic> I guess I could if I were keeping track of the statuses myself
19:14:21 <Mic> but I only monitor the events that libpurple sends at the moment
19:14:21 <skeledrew> k
19:14:26 <skeledrew> oh
19:14:54 <skeledrew> well, not a big deal anyway
19:15:21 <Mic> "their" is appropriate for both males and females
19:15:27 <Mic> I was looking for that :)
19:15:32 <skeledrew> yep
19:15:48 <skeledrew> or you could use his/her
19:16:14 <Mic> I had this in the beginning and decided it looks strange
19:16:28 <skeledrew> k
19:16:45 <Mic> Thanks
19:16:49 <skeledrew> np
19:17:44 <skeledrew> reading the alerts are kinda giving me a grammarian's migrane ;)
19:18:43 <Mic> I already included it
19:18:50 <skeledrew> k
19:19:05 <skeledrew> lemme know when it's uploaded
19:23:53 <Mic> Any suggestion for "Display status message too."?
19:24:14 <Mic> It will be shown on the options dialog
19:24:36 <skeledrew> hmm
19:24:37 <Mic> "Display their status message too." ?
19:25:32 <skeledrew> "Display user/buddy status"?
19:25:49 <clokep> "Display buddy status messages"
19:26:00 <skeledrew> yeah :)
19:27:07 * skeledrew finds recovering files from a dead system a real pain
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19:35:47 <Mic> I'm not happy with the option
19:36:48 <Mic> What would you say about  "Display associated buddy status messages too." ?
19:37:08 <Mic> I'd like to be clear that they come with the status changes ..
19:37:17 <clokep> Ah.
19:37:19 <clokep> Hmm...
19:37:47 <clokep> Have the one tickbox say whatever and have the other one only  editable when the status one is ticked and indent it?
19:43:42 <Mic> I think I'll remove the name change notification
19:43:59 <Mic> It's useless as long as I can't display the old alias of the user
19:46:49 <clokep> :( Patch libprpl? ;)
19:47:19 <Mic> I filed bug 454 (iirc?)
19:47:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=454 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Send previous alias as extra information on "buddy-alias" events
20:00:16 <clokep> :) Sounds like a plan then! :-D Maybe I'll give it a try tonight, although I think I'm going to find it annoying. :(
20:06:58 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
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20:13:56 <deOmega> mic: hi....
20:14:29 <deOmega> teh message notify add-on,  seems to check teh status of every  contact when IB boots up
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20:14:48 <deOmega> and so it seems to slow down the program
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20:15:47 <Mic> I guess adding a new alert window will take a bit
20:16:00 <deOmega> is there a way for  on the online contacts first or something and then delay anything regarding the offline contacts?
20:16:35 <Mic> No
20:17:01 <Mic> I'll think of a good way to display the events when I do a new alert window
20:17:02 <deOmega> Ok.  Thank you for your work anyway
20:17:12 <deOmega> ok
20:17:16 <Mic> tymerkaev: would you like to translate?
20:17:22 <tymerkaev> yep
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20:17:40 <Mic> This is how the option window looks like: http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8933/screenshotoptions.png
20:17:45 <tymerkaev> send me en-US version
20:17:46 <Mic> So you've got an idea
20:18:46 <tymerkaev> Mic: tymerkaev@gmail.com
20:21:54 <clokep> Mic: we seem to have these problems of having too many options in extensions. :) Looks good though.
20:22:16 <flo> the 3 onCommit builds succeeded :)
20:22:32 <tymerkaev> flo: where?
20:22:44 <flo> http://buildbot.instantbird.org/waterfall
20:24:19 <flo> "back" is not really a status
20:25:26 <tymerkaev> flo: m-c support isn't ready for now?
20:25:34 <flo> no
20:25:41 <flo> I'll work on it soon
20:26:36 <tymerkaev> flo: new logs viewer still planned for 0.4?
20:26:48 * clokep is almost at the point of another release of Auto Link.
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20:40:11 <MicTest> I just sent the email
20:40:32 <MicTest> I had to create a change log first .. 
20:42:34 <flo> babelzilla may be helpful for translating add-ons :)
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20:58:12 <Mic> flo: did you think about a 0.3 roadmap already?
20:58:34 <clokep> Bye.
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20:59:59 <flo> Mic: I spend more time thinking about the changes we need to do to our process / how we (re)start, how we avoid falling in the same mistakes again than about the feature set.
21:01:23 <Mic> item one: * improve processes ;)
21:02:49 <flo> my current active projects are: "0.2 post release" (various cleanup in the infrastructure -> almost done), "plan 0.3", "restart development" (merge js-proto, upgrade to Mozilla 2.0 and libpurple 2.7.2), "simplify the welcoming process of new translators" (almost done)
21:03:00 <flo> and "move nearer to my office" (almost done)
21:03:13 <flo> I'll live closer than the metro station!!
21:03:28 <flo> I spent about 3 hours commuting every day this year
21:03:42 <flo> should be down to 5 or 10 minutes next year
21:09:59 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
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21:19:01 <Mic> My "join chat" extension seems to be pretty awful :(
21:19:07 <Mic> 233 Total Downloads · 10 Weekly Downloads · 8 Active Daily Users
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21:27:29 <clokep> Mic: I'm one of your daily users for Join Chat. :P
21:31:19 <Mic> flo: when using the context menu the node that was clicked is returned
21:31:44 <Mic> is there an easy way to tell if this node is child of a certain other node or do I have to walk through the tree trying to find it?
21:32:59 <flo> I would say use the parentNode properties in a loop and check if you find your node
21:33:55 <Mic> not the answer I was hoping for but ok
21:44:36 <Mic> Maybe people expect that they can open a conversation with another buddy and not only to join MUCs
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22:05:16 <flo> I'd like if we could have the "+" open a new "empty" tab that would use all the available space to show the ways to start a new conversation
22:05:38 <flo> so either displaying the list of chatrooms on the irc server
22:05:51 <flo> or the list of buddies, with a textbox for filtering
22:06:09 <flo> the most "used" buddies would be visible at the top before starting to filter
22:07:25 <clokep> flo++
22:08:37 <flo> maybe sometimes I should post on the blogs about random UI ideas, instead of finished stuff. Just put there a quick pencil sketch of the UI, and let people imagine/comment :)
22:09:16 <clokep> I know some people would enjoy that -- like deOmega.
22:09:26 <flo> sure!
22:09:47 <flo> but what about the disappointment if we never actually implement it?
22:09:58 <clokep> True. :(
22:16:14 <Mic> then an annoyed extension programmer will lock himself in during a weekend and present an extension people will love on monday?
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22:28:19 <Mic> good night
22:30:09 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
22:30:14 <flo> good night! :)
22:34:41 <skeledrew> night... day... *sighs* good thing i don't live in a basement...
22:36:54 <skeledrew> more i think of it, more of a mess the logging seems to be. and it's the most persistent aspect of the client
22:38:07 <clokep> Well with the js-proto branch it no longer uses the libpurple one I believe.
22:39:00 <skeledrew> just looking at a log for someone who changed their name to a motto or something (MSN people really abuse the system) and it's a real eyesore seeing the motto-for-a-name throughout the log file...
22:40:23 <skeledrew> the log file should strictly use the email address for sender/receivers
22:40:49 <skeledrew> like Pidgin does :)
22:41:46 <skeledrew> and i'm wondering how easy it is to fix the date change issue
22:44:32 <skeledrew> and stop most those darned system messages from getting logged
22:45:13 <clokep> Look at the new logger code?
22:45:54 <skeledrew> where?
22:46:11 <skeledrew> how do i access the js-proto stuff anyway?
22:47:08 <skeledrew> is there a links page somewhere with links to everything dealing with IB?
22:47:24 <clokep> Well js-proto is now trunk, flo pushed it earlier today.
22:48:08 <clokep> http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/31a037eea8b5
22:48:13 <clokep> Is the change that went intoday...
22:49:13 <clokep> http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/31a037eea8b5/instantbird/components/logger.js
22:49:19 <clokep> Might be what you're interested in though.
22:49:50 <skeledrew> hmm
22:50:00 <skeledrew> i really need to d/l tortoisehg
22:50:23 <skeledrew> but i'm still trying to recover my files
22:55:39 <flo> skeledrew: "like Pidgin does :)" doesn't make sense in what you said.
22:55:57 <flo> Pidgin doesn't create logs. libpurple does.
22:56:12 <skeledrew> my bad
22:56:16 <flo> and it did for instantbird up to now (that will change tomorrow)
22:56:30 <skeledrew> then however they config'd it, we need to do the same
22:56:40 <skeledrew> k
22:56:53 <flo> you may have put a local alias on some of your contacts in pidgin
22:57:20 <skeledrew> no. they do that themselves
22:57:54 <skeledrew> i wish i could set a default alias for some of them
22:57:56 <flo> except if that has changed between 2.6.6 and 2.7.2, I can't believe it ;)
22:58:12 <skeledrew> hmm
22:58:24 <skeledrew> lemme consult my Pidgin logs...
22:58:25 <flo> why can't you put an alias?
22:58:47 <skeledrew> oh snap. system's dead :(
22:59:04 <flo> the pidgin/libpurple logs have several serious issues in my opinion anyway. We need a replacement
22:59:04 <skeledrew> i can, but if they change it on their side, mine changes to match
22:59:29 <flo> are you sure?
22:59:41 <skeledrew> can't be bothered having to rename them everytime
22:59:42 <flo> if it behaves like this, it's a bug
22:59:51 <skeledrew> i see
23:00:01 <clokep> flo: Hvae you decided on a magic bullet log system yet? :P
23:00:06 <skeledrew> way i see it, it's on two levels
23:00:33 <flo> the display name set by the contact and the local alias you set yourself are not supposed to be mixed up
23:00:50 <flo> clokep: we need to brainstorm more
23:00:58 <flo> I'm pretty sure there will be some sqlite involved
23:01:06 <skeledrew> but the local alias gets overriden
23:01:22 <flo> if you are sure it does, file a bug :)
23:01:30 <skeledrew> and i keep pointing my finger at my MSN contacts...
23:01:35 <clokep> flo: sqlite is good, jus tneed to make sure it includes a sane sync mechanism...
23:02:01 * clokep really hates user options
23:02:11 <flo> clokep: and a way to make backups. We don't want to loose all the logs at once if scandisk decides the file is corrupted and should be removed
23:02:23 * skeledrew really loves user options
23:02:45 <flo> it seems you 2 are saying the exact same thing :)
23:03:01 <skeledrew> lol
23:03:59 <clokep> flo: Right. Places backs up to JSON I believe, but logs can potentially be much bigger.
23:04:32 <flo> we also need a good way to have a full text index
23:04:40 <flo> I believe Thunderbird 3 has some things for that
23:05:54 <clokep> gloda, yeah.
23:05:55 <flo> and some way to limite the disk space used. I'd love if we could gzip the data of logs that are more than a month old but keep the index working and be able to retrieve them with a barely noticeable delay
23:06:09 <clokep> Possibly...
23:06:26 <flo> maybe I'm over ambitious
23:06:37 <skeledrew> oh yeah, i think the contact's alias should show in that buddy popup thingie too. just to cover all bases...
23:06:54 <clokep> I think start with just making a schema. :)
23:06:59 <skeledrew> flo: not really
23:07:18 <skeledrew> zipped text files extract pretty easily
23:07:26 <skeledrew> *quickly
23:08:02 <skeledrew> and i'm once again placing my vote for storing logs as XML
23:08:22 <clokep> XML really isn't a very good format to store data.
23:08:30 <clokep> Its nice cause its human readable...but besides that it doesn't have many benefits.
23:08:32 <clokep> And its so verbose.
23:08:39 <skeledrew> XML was MADE to store data
23:09:11 <skeledrew> much easier to parse IMO
23:09:17 <flo> skeledrew: 1. There's no "vote" going on here.
23:09:24 <skeledrew> lol
23:09:30 <flo> 2. XML is a format to exchange data, not store them.
23:09:33 <skeledrew> i'm voting anyway
23:10:13 <skeledrew> yeah. but you can't exchg if you don't store
23:10:17 <flo> XML is good to have as an export format, and may be useful for sync, but not to store on the disk
23:10:34 <skeledrew> (i love to argue pointless points, don't i?)
23:10:59 <skeledrew> so what's the best storage format, and why?
23:11:32 <flo> it's the one we will decide to use.
23:11:37 <flo> for the reasons we will decide to use it
23:11:44 <skeledrew> lolz
23:11:48 <flo> (what's the point of discussing it if we already know the answer?)
23:11:54 <skeledrew> that's sooo biased :
23:12:22 <skeledrew> (because some minds actually do accept changes)
23:12:38 <skeledrew> (there's gotta be some hope)
23:13:04 <flo> I rarely accept changes when the reasons on which the decision is based haven't changed.
23:13:36 <flo> (and I rarely take a decisions without thinking about it before)
23:13:46 <skeledrew> even when the reasoning changes and new data is put forth?
23:14:56 <skeledrew> oh yeah. need buddy notes too. nice to have info on some of your contacts right in the client
23:15:02 <flo> that argument is getting really pointless :-P
23:15:18 <flo> yeah
23:15:30 <flo> it's easy to do as an addon and it would be useful
23:15:35 <skeledrew> and it'll be hammered even more till it's reconsidered :)
23:15:40 <flo> I hope in the future we can make it even easier to do
23:15:42 <skeledrew> k
23:16:29 * skeledrew wishes for his wish list
23:17:42 <clokep> Implement them yourself. ;)
23:18:07 <skeledrew> ...
23:19:30 * flo wonders if gloda can be re-used "as is"
23:19:43 <clokep> I highly doubt it. :( Standard8 is the one to ask though.
23:19:50 * skeledrew wonders what gloda is...
23:20:03 <flo> skeledrew: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/thunderbird/gloda
23:20:11 <flo> clokep: I think it was designed for be usable with more types of data
23:20:18 <flo> and some of it is supposed to be generic/extensible
23:20:38 <clokep> Perhaps, I think its pretty intensely integrated into Tb though.
23:20:42 <flo> there may be lots of differences between the original intent and the actual implementations though
23:20:51 <clokep> Also they're discussing storing data in it.
23:21:46 <flo> if we need some changes to make it work for us they may be happy to take them
23:22:31 <clokep> True. :)
23:24:04 <flo> my places database weights 23MB :-S
23:25:27 <clokep> Ouch.
23:25:46 <flo> well, maybe the instantbird logs aren't that big finally :)
23:29:28 <skeledrew> one LONG list of status changes filling up a log by itself :(
23:36:21 <flo> and gloda weights 449MB
23:36:22 <flo> lol
23:36:48 <flo> now I understand why Thunderbird 3 always seems so slow
23:37:04 <-- micahg has quit (Ping timeout)
23:37:08 <flo> oops, 429MB
23:37:15 <flo> doesn't make a big difference though
23:38:22 <flo> 8,7G	./ImapMail/imap.gmail-1.com
23:38:43 <flo> it's downloading and storing emails in each gmail tag as if it was a different message :(
23:39:11 <flo> hmm, so gloda weights about 5% of the global email storage, that's not so terrible
23:41:26 <clokep> flo: Blame gmail for that, not Thunderbird. Gmail fully breaks the IMAP spec.
23:41:55 <clokep> You have a lot of email though. :P
23:42:05 <flo> a lot of tags ;)
23:42:12 <clokep> All of my IMAP accounts  are less < 600 MB.
23:42:14 <flo> Gmail says "You are currently using 1632 MB (21%) of your 7480 MB."
23:42:25 <clokep> Ah, I see.
23:43:19 <flo> I don't really care whether Gmail breaks the IMAP spec with I don't intend to read before accessing my emails. Thunderbird has a "Gmail" account type in the account wizard. If it doesn't know how to use it with IMAP, it should default to POP
23:43:28 <flo> *which
23:43:47 <flo> anyway, good evening/night! :)
23:44:05 <clokep> 'night.
23:44:09 <skeledrew> evening
23:44:28 <clokep> And it doesn't have that anymore, its all done through the new account wizard. ;)
23:55:57 <clokep> Gonna update, let's see how this goes.
23:56:07 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
23:56:11 --> clokep has joined #instantbird
23:58:12 <clokep> Eek I have too many friends I think. :( Notifications all over the place.
23:59:27 <skeledrew> lol
23:59:38 <skeledrew> i knew it wasn't just me