#instantbird log on 07 21 2010

All times are UTC.

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00:25:31 <clokep> Mic: Regex kind of suck with non-ASCII characters AFAIK.
00:25:39 <clokep> We'd have to add a lot of Unicode ones in there.
00:25:45 <clokep> Or use the . :)
00:25:47 <clokep> I'll ese what I can do.
01:34:37 <clokep> Mic: flo: Reworked it a bit: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/304
01:34:52 <clokep> The expression is at the top followed by a list of URLs I tried to match.
01:34:59 <clokep> If you can think of others please add. :)
01:36:00 <clokep> And for fun I'm gonna past the regexp here so its in the logs (I really don't want to remake it)
01:36:01 <clokep> \b([^\d]\S+:(\/\/)?)?(((25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?)\.){3}(25[0-5]|2[0-4][0-9]|[01]?[0-9][0-9]?)|\S+\.[^\s\d]+(\.[^\s\d]+)?)(:\d+)?((\/|\?|#|;)\S*)?/gi
01:36:13 <clokep> (And that's missing a / in front)
02:07:19 <ibbot> clokep@gmail.com added attachment 317 to bug 207.
02:07:23 <ibbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=207 min, --, ---, clokep, ASSI, URLs should not contain Smileys
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08:35:49 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
08:36:30 <flo> Good morning :)
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09:19:55 <Mic> hi..
09:20:58 <Mic> before I forget it: I've saved queries for nice-to-have, wanted, blocking bugs (and others iirc) on bugzilla 
09:21:30 <Mic> Any edit- or can-confirm-user can use these shared queries by adding them from their preferences page
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09:21:40 <Mic> .. and bye
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12:26:45 <skeledrew> where can i find a changelog of differences between 0.2b2 and 0.2?
12:28:35 <skeledrew> want to use 2b2 as a base for experiments, instead of making another copy of 2
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12:30:30 <clokep> Why can't you just copy it? They're pretty much the same size AFAIK.
12:30:41 <clokep> Are you talking like general changes or specific code changes?
12:31:01 <skeledrew> general
12:31:30 <skeledrew> like anything that'd make them work differently from each other
12:35:37 <clokep> Compare http://instantbird.com/download-0.2b2.html and http://instantbird.com/release-notes.html or http://instantbird.com/ChangeLog-0.2b2 and http://instantbird.com/ChangeLog-0.2
12:36:16 <skeledrew> k
12:36:16 <skeledrew> thx
12:41:00 <Mic> https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:release_process
12:41:16 <Mic> skeledrew: scroll down to "Generate the ChangeLog"
12:41:26 <Mic> It says how to use hg to generate one
12:42:42 <skeledrew> k
12:43:13 <skeledrew> don't understand hg yet though
12:43:51 <skeledrew> thinking of using a script to do a diff
12:45:24 <clokep> hg would do that for you though
12:45:36 <skeledrew> oh
12:45:38 <skeledrew> hmm
12:45:51 <clokep> Well it woudl give you all the changesets.
12:46:06 <clokep> I think you can do hg diff between two arbitrary revisions though.
12:46:12 <clokep> I just don't remember how. :)
12:46:32 <skeledrew> got a tut link on hg?
12:47:11 <skeledrew> Mercurial?
12:47:22 <clokep> Yes, Mercurial.
12:47:28 <skeledrew> ahh
12:47:30 <clokep> And no. I just Google when I need things or do hg --help
12:47:31 <skeledrew> k
12:47:59 <skeledrew> try googling "hg" :P
12:48:12 <clokep> I do it all the time, just not "hg".
12:48:19 <clokep> YOu'll probably get Mercury as a result though.
12:48:22 <Mic> That's exactly what's in this wiki article
12:48:35 <clokep> Anyway its eems that its hg diff -r:revision1 -r:revision2
12:49:10 <skeledrew> clokep: gotta find out how to actually access and use it first...
12:49:11 <Mic> You gives the branches and the range of revisions to include
12:49:40 <Mic> Skeledrew: accessing Mercurial can be done using TortoiseHG from Windows
12:50:05 <skeledrew> k
12:50:14 <Even> hg diff -rrev1:rev2 is identical and much quicker to write though
12:50:35 <skeledrew> ah. clokep gave me an overview a while back
12:50:37 <Mic> rather: "You can use TortoiseHG to access Mercurial from Windows"
12:50:43 <Even> >Or at least I think this works.
12:51:05 <clokep> Even: It doesn't say that in the man page. :(
12:51:12 <Even> It works.
12:51:15 <Even> I just tried it :)
12:51:19 <skeledrew> lol
12:51:24 <clokep> I believe you, just be nice if it said it! :)
12:51:29 <Even> hg diff -r1:3 gave me differences between rev 1 and rev 3
12:51:30 <skeledrew> undoc'd feature?
12:51:44 <Mic> I always wanted to have a changelog for nightlies..
12:51:56 <clokep> Mic: Doing things like that is kind of strange on TortoiseHg I find though. TortoiseHg is great for committing, pushing, pulling, etc. but can get funky sometimes.
12:52:06 <Mic> why?
12:52:14 <Mic> You can always use it from the command line ..
12:52:18 <clokep> Couldn't the nightly script do that easily and just dumb it into a file in the ftp directly?
12:52:31 <clokep> Mic: Right, but you just said to use TortoiseHg, which isn't from the command line. :P
12:52:52 <Mic> Is TortoiseHG only the frontend?
12:53:06 <Mic> I though all of it has this name
12:53:16 <Even> TortoiseHG is not "the frontend";
12:53:24 <skeledrew> i better finish setting up coLinux for this level of dev work
12:53:26 <Even> It's something like a package containing mercurial + a python frpont end.
12:53:31 <Even> But it is not official.
12:54:00 <skeledrew> i'm still stuck in the lone developer mode
12:54:01 <Even> Only a helper for people that do not like command line tools or don't know how to use it.
12:54:20 <clokep> Even is right, and it works really well. But I'm saying trying to get the diff between arbitrary revisions isn't an easy thing to do it in, yes I can just open the hg.exe that comes with it, but you're not use the "TortoiseHg" anymore, you're just using Hg.
12:54:33 <clokep> Even: Hey, be nice. Its just easier to use.
12:54:52 <clokep> skeledrew: Why coLinux?
12:55:03 <Even> TortoiseHG does display diffs.
12:55:07 <clokep> I always found it very unstable, VMs work better.
12:55:15 <Even> There is a contextual menu to do that.
12:55:22 <skeledrew> not ready partitioning, etc. when i get a new system
12:55:23 <clokep> Even: I didn't say it doesn't display diffs, I said its a pain to get the diff between two ARBITRARY revisions.
12:55:38 <Mic> There's some problem when creating certain diff's from the UI
12:55:43 <clokep> At least not in an easy way I've found. :)
12:55:46 <Even> What do you call "ARBITRARY" ?
12:55:59 <clokep> Two previous revisions that might be months apart.
12:56:02 <Mic> It fails to create proper entries for creating new files
12:56:03 <Even> Ok.
12:56:06 <clokep> The context menu gives you a diff to local I believe.
12:56:17 <Even> Yeah, by default.
12:56:22 <Mic> the command on the command line works fine though
12:56:28 <Even> you can use the log to get revisions from older things I think
12:56:41 <Even> There you select one revision, you find the older one, right click and ask for a diff.
12:56:45 <Even> I think it is something like that.
12:56:56 <clokep> Yeah, which could still be a pain if there's a lot of revisions in between. :)
12:57:06 <Even> Sure enough.
12:57:11 <Even> You have to find them in the tree.
12:57:54 <Even> There is a filter option.
12:58:08 <clokep> My issue with using command line on Windows is that it does weird things with the path, so if my working directly is ~/instantbird or whatever I'd have to do C:\Progra~1\Tortoi~1\hg.exe diff...etc.
12:58:08 <Even> Maybe it's possible to use it to get the two correct revisions "easily" on the screen.
12:58:40 <Even> Well, for starters, you can start by adding hg.exe in your system path.
12:58:41 <skeledrew> clokep: why use the 8.3 format?
12:58:41 <clokep> Probably, I don't usually do diffs from revisions months apart. :)
12:58:46 <Even> Like that you could just write hg diff
12:58:49 <clokep> skeledrew: Quicker to type. ;)
12:59:13 <skeledrew> k
12:59:20 <clokep> Even: Right, you can. But I just wish Program Files/* was on the system path. :)
12:59:37 <skeledrew> clokep: insert it
12:59:43 <Even> It looks like a fine idea but it is not. it would be a pain in the ass in more than one occasion.
12:59:47 <clokep> You can't insert a pattern like that.
12:59:53 <clokep> Even: Linux does it.
12:59:59 <Even> First because there is a lot of files that do have the exact same name in this folder.
13:00:00 <skeledrew> not the *
13:00:07 <Even> Yeap, not the *.
13:00:12 <Even> It actually is the main issue there.
13:00:33 <clokep> Right, well Windows separates all the files into subfolders, while bin on Linux is just the executables.
13:00:44 <clokep> I actually prefer the Windows way since it keeps packages together, but it makes this instance hard.
13:00:45 <Even> I think about "uninstall.exe".
13:00:46 * skeledrew prefers to script anything repetitive
13:00:51 <Even> You have one in nearly all of those folder.
13:00:57 <clokep> If I really want to do stuff on the command line I just open the mozilla-build environment. :)
13:01:21 <clokep> Even: Good point. I didn't think of that.
13:01:25 <Even> ^^
13:02:22 <Even> One good way to do that, I never tried but I suppose it works, is to create a bin dfolder somewhere, to add it in your path, and then to put in it shortcuts pointing on executables you would like.
13:03:01 <clokep> I'm not sure that works, but it might.
13:03:08 <Even> I never tried this since I just got the idea but it seems like a good way to prevent you from having to change this variable every time you add something and would allow some flexibility.
13:03:10 <clokep> I have a Batch files folder that's on my path which I run stuff from.
13:03:22 <clokep> I.e. I start instantbird or firefox or whatever with the dev paramters.
13:03:30 <Even> :)
13:03:53 <clokep> But that doesn't help when I want to run arbitrary commands. :P At least not easily.
13:05:21 <Even> Well, in the most case, when you run something "arbitrary" it still remains in a "usual" set of things.
13:05:37 <Even> So with time you'll get everything you need in the needed folder.
13:05:51 <Even> *in most cases
13:06:28 <Even> The only little parameter that miss is to know if shortcuts works or not.
13:06:44 <Even> If they don't, it is only a loss of time to discuss this.
13:06:58 <Even> I don't have anything to test this quickly right now so...
13:08:03 <clokep> Even: Just tried it, it works.
13:08:21 <clokep> You can even leave out to ".exe.lnk"
13:08:22 <clokep> Impressive.
13:11:54 <clokep> Anyway, the point is that you can use hg to do a diff for you skeledrew. ;)
13:12:17 <skeledrew> k
13:12:24 <clokep> Also, skeledrew I used andLinux back in the day (which is based off coLinux but a bit more stable), not sure if it still is or not.
13:12:42 <skeledrew> thx for that looong discussion
13:12:49 <clokep> Now I just run VirtualBox though, its a lot easier. Although a bit more RAM heavy I suppose.
13:12:59 <skeledrew> yeah. it works
13:13:40 <skeledrew> coLinux offers a wider variety of distros though
13:14:08 <skeledrew> though it needs alot more configing
13:14:41 <Even> A good thing if you do use the diff oiption is to put hose in your conf file (you ~/.hgrc or WindowsUserFolder\Mercurial.ini file):
13:14:42 <Even> [patches]
13:14:42 <Even> git=1
13:14:42 <Even> nodates=1
13:14:42 <Even> [extensions]
13:14:42 <Even> color=
13:15:06 <clokep> Yeah, but I could never get it working stably. :)
13:15:10 <Even> The last two lines (extensions + color), I don't know if they have any effect on Windows but at least on Linux it adds colors and it is great.
13:15:12 <clokep> What distroy did you want to use?
13:15:40 <clokep> -y
13:16:32 * skeledrew 's system is overheating yet again 
13:16:45 <skeledrew> gotta shutdown a while
13:17:02 <Mic> skeledrew: which OS are you using?
13:17:16 <skeledrew> WinXP
13:17:43 <Mic> you know that you have cmd-line completion there?
13:18:00 <skeledrew> ?
13:18:06 <skeledrew> you mean history
13:18:13 <Mic> "Tab" should complete path and filenames
13:18:21 <skeledrew> nope
13:18:30 <Mic> if not then set HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Command Processor\CompetionChar to 9
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13:18:42 <skeledrew> hmm
13:18:44 <skeledrew> interesting
13:18:49 <Mic> Should work since NT4 or Windows 2k
13:19:14 <Mic> Oh, and you need to run "cmd" not "command" which is the old one and doesn't support it
13:19:31 <skeledrew> i know
13:19:47 <skeledrew> thx. it works
13:19:51 <Mic> :)
13:20:26 <skeledrew> anyway, my overheat klaxon's driving me nuts
13:20:31 <skeledrew> bbl
13:20:41 <Mic> cu
13:21:00 <skeledrew> yeah
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13:40:43 <clokep> Mic: I rewrote the link regex so it should work with all international characters, but I'm not positive about that. :) It passed almost all of yours and my test cases. Sorry for the broken link yesterday.
13:41:19 <Mic> Well, it should have been obvious to me that something wasn't right with such an end on a regexp
13:41:40 <Mic> It was cut in the middle of a character range bracket or so 
13:41:52 <clokep> Ouch, that would mess it up nicely.
13:47:48 <flo> I'm interested in determining why we have been so slow on the 0.2 release, and how we can improve it for 0.3.
13:48:11 <flo> any idea/feedback about the way we work, the way we communicate, our processes, whatever is appreciated.
13:48:40 <flo> either publicly or privately (if some opinions may be hurtful to some people)
13:55:48 <clokep> I know its on your to-do list, but I think having your to-do list (this is starting to sound recursive) somewhere on the wiki (or in bugs, I think you said?) might help others see what's going or at least planned.
13:56:11 <clokep> And even marking bugs fixed, etc. shows some work is being done (I mean, who checks the hg logs? ;))
14:10:54 <flo> so "use more bugzilla"
14:11:49 <clokep> I think so, but that's kind of my preferred way of getting information about software I use, probably cause I like how ridiculously organized you can make bugzilla/trac/etc.
14:11:58 <clokep> Others might just like more blog posts. :)
14:12:07 <flo> maybe I should put somewere on a regular basis (weekly?) an overview of my active projects and what has changed in the week?
14:13:37 <Mic> Maybe it would help to know earlier which bugs will be considered as blockers for a release
14:13:58 <clokep> Perhaps something like: http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/weekly-updates.fcgi/project/thunderbird I think you're saying? Just a quick list of "this is what I'm doing, what I'm planning on doing"?
14:14:37 <flo> clokep: I don't know this tool well, but yes, probably something like that.
14:15:01 <flo> Mic: maybe we could try to avoid having blocker bugs?
14:15:06 <clokep> Not necessarily saying use that type of tool. :) Just that idea.
14:15:27 <Mic> the sentence can be read in two different ways ;)
14:15:48 <flo> develop new important features in separate branches, and merge them only once we think there's probably few regressions hiding there
14:18:26 <Mic> Maybe the work was just too much for one release
14:19:01 <Mic> And if you estimate the time it takes incorrectly then it piles up quite a lot
14:19:13 <flo> I think we have stuffed more and more things in the release because it was already late
14:20:10 <flo> I see the string freeze problem as a big issue
14:22:02 <flo> after 0.2b2 we thought we were "almost ready to ship" and actually we weren't
14:22:10 <flo> and it took about 3 months
14:27:59 <Mic> "and actually we weren't" .. how many string changes are there after 0.2b2?
14:28:06 <flo> 0
14:28:14 <flo> I mean we weren't ready to release
14:28:16 <Mic> ah, so these two lines are not related .. opk
14:28:44 <Mic> Still: string changes would mean waiting for the translators
14:29:10 <Mic> Setting up the update system took a good part of this time, didn't it?
14:29:45 <flo> procrastination took most of it
14:29:55 <flo> the blockers were the update system and the new website
14:35:28 * flo is looking for ways to have a less "central" place in the project (not have everybody always blocked waiting for my opinion, ...)
14:38:04 <clokep> I think putting things in a public place that need to be worked on may help with that a bit. ;)
14:38:14 <clokep> BUt only if others are willing to help.
14:38:20 * clokep is trying but time is the enemy.
14:38:48 <flo> in my case, I think procrastination is the big enemy
14:38:58 <flo> when there are too many things to do at once, nothing get started
14:39:05 <flo> or I spend time on things that could wait
14:40:22 <Mic> A list of things that you think are important enough to do, but not important enough to spend your time on (let contributors pick one of these tasks)?
14:40:51 <flo> reading all messages on IRC
14:40:58 <flo> answering questions of new translators
14:41:08 <flo> replying to messages on contact@ib.org
14:41:16 <Mic> The channel go quite busy in the recent time ;)
14:41:23 <flo> it's better
14:41:25 <Mic> A good tutorial how to translate might help
14:41:59 <flo> but if I want to do things that require concentration (like implementing interesting new features), I should make sure I'm not interrupting myself
14:42:05 <Mic> I think you said everyone keeps asking similiar questions
14:42:45 <flo> yes, I want to write a wiki page with the answers to common questions
14:42:52 <flo> I hoped someone was going to do it
14:43:02 <flo> actually, someone promised to do it a few months ago, but... disappeared
14:43:14 <Mic> I simply can't, I've never done anything on translations
14:43:42 <flo> I'm currently not asking anybody to do anything. Just trying to look at the situation
14:50:38 <ibbot> raynaudquentin@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 121 to FIXED.
14:50:39 <ibbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=121 nor, --, ---, raynaudquentin, RESO FIXED, Update script shoud be exploded
14:51:38 <ibbot> raynaudquentin@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 120 to FIXED.
14:51:40 <ibbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120 nor, --, ---, raynaudquentin, RESO FIXED, Buildbot master.cfg should be modularized and easier to adapt
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14:58:32 <ibbot> raynaudquentin@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 201 to WONTFIX.
14:58:34 <ibbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=201 nor, --, ---, raynaudquentin, RESO WONTFIX, Some privileges are lost during browsing
14:59:37 <flo> I would like if we could help translators work together
14:59:50 <flo> maybe we should create a mailing list for translators and subscribe all of them to it?
15:00:43 <flo> the mailing list receiving emails sent to contact@instantbird.org should probably become public too.
15:01:01 <clokep> You should probably ask them before putting them on a mailing list. ;)
15:01:17 <flo> of course
15:01:22 <clokep> is contact@ mostly support questions or what type of mail?
15:03:35 <ibbot> raynaudquentin@gmail.com set the Resolution field on bug 389 to FIXED.
15:03:38 <ibbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389 tri, --, ---, raynaudquentin, RESO FIXED, "http://developer.mozilla.org" being referred to as  "Instantbird's developer center"
15:03:51 <flo> looking at the newest emails of this list, I see: "Delete", "Facebook chat", "Skype protocol", "Gadu-Gadu", "translation", "... is interested in advertising on your website", "I created this smiley theme", "yahoo! protocol not working"
15:04:23 <flo> so yeah, support questions, "are you going to support ... soon?" questions, some people offering help
15:05:51 <clokep> Only thing with makign it public is it should be made clear that mailing the list is public.
15:06:11 <flo> yes, we should state it on the website
15:06:20 <flo> and after that, anybody can answer support questions
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15:07:37 <flo> Morian: does instantbot still read its emails?
15:09:38 <Mic> Does Morian still read the chat? ;)
15:11:16 <flo> any idea of what we can do about the roadmap/list of features of the next version?
15:11:56 <flo> I'd like if we could release a milestone (alpha or beta) at least once a month.
15:12:11 <flo> but it would also be nice to be able to say "there will be these features in that milestone/release"
15:12:34 <flo> But if we state a fixed list of features and a fixed time... it's like asking for disappointment
15:13:26 <clokep> I'd vote for a semi-fixed list of features with a time range, drop features when you get close to the end of the time range.
15:18:48 <clokep> Are you looking for specific features for each of those alpha/betas or just an overall release?
15:19:54 <flo> at this point I'm just looking for some confidence in our ability to ship a good 0.3 release before the end of 2010, and even better, in late october/early november :)
15:20:23 <flo> if we want to reach 1.0 "soon", we need to release major version often, and have at least "something" interesting in them
15:20:50 <flo> (we can do a big jump at some point to reach 1.0, but 0.2->1.0 seems a bit too big :))
15:21:09 <clokep> Haha, I agree. :)
15:21:23 <clokep> Well contacts would be a huge new feature (going off the list on the wiki)
15:21:42 <clokep> Sync would be somethign semi-unique if that was working.
15:21:55 <Mic> Sync will be a major task imo
15:22:17 <clokep> I know. :(
15:22:20 <flo> I don't see us working on Sync until we have a good storage of logs
15:22:47 <clokep> Ah, true. I forget about the state of logs. :)
15:22:48 <Mic> Syncing the buddy list and accounts would be a great thing though
15:23:08 <flo> well, yes
15:23:09 <Mic> I've got to regroup buddies on each Instantbird installation :s
15:23:18 <flo> I guess an add-on could already start experimenting with syncing the accounts
15:23:35 <Mic> I think I'll try to produce a good content preview addon first
15:23:38 <flo> why don't you just copy the profile?
15:23:42 <Mic> it might leave a good impression
15:23:51 <clokep> Maybe we should take a look at those emails and see what features a lot of people want? ;)
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15:24:10 <flo> you mean the emails on contact@ib.org?
15:25:22 <flo> most of them are not very interesting
15:25:51 <flo> if we want to address top missing features, I guess "set one's buddy icon, systray icon on Windows, file transfer" is a decent list for 0.3
15:26:28 <clokep> How many of those are realizable?
15:26:44 <flo> none of those is motivating
15:26:52 <clokep> :(
15:27:03 <flo> but all are probably doable
15:28:01 <clokep> Target one per alpha/beta? ;)
15:28:41 <Mic> Even though it might not be motivating, but the XUL mockup of the buddy icon on the buddy list header looked quite good in my opinion
15:28:42 <flo> yeah, maybe "one tedious but wanted thing per milestone"
15:28:57 <flo> Mic: I wanted it for 0.2.
15:29:06 <flo> then I looked at the libpurple code for buddy icons.
15:29:34 <flo> I was sad to have to change my plan about it :-/
15:29:36 * Mic is waiting for ".. and decided to rewrite it in javascript.." 
15:29:52 <flo> no, I can't decide that right now. Too many protocols
15:30:01 <clokep> I like the mockup for buddy icons, looks good.
15:30:42 <clokep> Of those I think the systray is the least important since it /is/ available via an addon.
15:30:52 <clokep> (Even if that's not ideal, its still there.)
15:31:02 <flo> it doesn't work very well
15:31:10 <clokep> :-\
15:31:11 <flo> from what I've heard
15:31:22 <clokep> Does anyone else feel abd saying Even over and over? I feel like I'm pinging every time.
15:31:31 <flo> and we want it to be able to add a "start Instantbird at system startup" option
15:31:48 <clokep> s/(a)(b)/$2$1
15:31:52 <flo> clokep: I think Even will finally go back to his previous nick of Eventreur ;)
15:32:16 <Mic> I guess it's one own fault if you chose a nick that is a word in the language of the channel ;)
15:33:08 <Mic> flo: would you mind moving your screenshots/mockups somewhere discoverable?
15:33:10 <clokep> flo: "Start a program on startup" is built into the OS, you can just drag Instantbird to the list and it should start...although I guess people expect a little tickbox in programs.
15:33:30 <Mic> It's so annoying that we can't list this directory anymore (and we still need to know where it is)
15:33:33 <flo> Mic: I plan to use screenshot.instantbird.org, and post links to tweeter each time I add something
15:33:47 <Mic> I meant the old ones as well
15:33:55 <Mic> e.g. if we'd like to refer to one
15:34:15 <Mic> eg I currently fail to find the mockup with the icon ..
15:34:52 <flo> there are files that aren't public in there
15:35:14 <clokep> Mic: There was one in the bug that I was referring to.
15:35:29 <flo> I guess I can teach apache to do a directory index of only *.png and *.xpi files
15:35:30 <clokep> Or "The one I was referring to was in the bug."
15:36:01 <flo> Mic: you are probably looking for one of these:
15:36:02 <flo> buddy-list-status-winxp.png
15:36:03 <flo> buddy-list-status-winxp2.png
15:36:03 <flo> buddy-list-status-winxp3.png
15:36:03 <flo> buddy-list-status-winxp4.png
15:36:03 <flo> buddy-list-status.png
15:36:03 <flo> buddy-list-status2.png
15:36:04 <flo> buddyliststatus.png
15:36:36 <Mic> exactly, http://queze.net/goinfre/buddy-list-status.png :)
15:37:23 <flo> going home
15:37:27 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
15:38:15 <clokep> Pretty snazzy. :)
15:40:14 <-- testib has quit (Ping timeout)
15:54:57 <Mic> bye
15:55:16 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
16:35:01 --> tymerkaev-afk has joined #instantbird
17:09:07 <-- micahg has quit (Ping timeout)
17:39:37 * tymerkaev-afk is now known as tymerkaev
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18:38:39 <Mic> hi
18:39:17 <clokep> Hey Mic, how're you?
18:39:25 <Mic> I'm fine
18:39:25 * clokep is reading about js-ctypes.
18:40:50 <Mic> I wonder why flo changed the "related links" article as he did
18:41:53 <Mic> He removed the https from the addons page where it is working, added it to the developer page, where it doesn't ..
18:42:23 <Mic> same for the buildbot waterfall ..
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18:44:12 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
18:45:06 <clokep> Yeah, not sure.
18:45:09 <Mic> flo: did you change the other links in the "related links" article accidently when removing the Farsight link?
18:45:09 <clokep> Good thing you can ask him. :p
18:45:43 <Mic> Honestly I can't see why they would make sense as they are now
18:46:23 <flo> bouh :(. How is it possible to do that accidentally without even having a warning in the way?
18:48:31 <flo> Mic: thanks for putting it to my attention! :)
18:49:34 <Mic> You're welcome. I was about to change them back myself at the risk of being wrong the minute you joined the channel ;)
18:50:46 <flo> Pidgin 2.7.2 released
18:50:56 <flo> maybe it's time to update it for our nightlies
18:51:13 <clokep> We're still on 2.6.3?
18:51:20 <flo> 2.6.6
18:52:02 <clokep> Will that break things? :P
18:53:30 <flo> I haven't seen yet a libpurple upgrade without a notable regression
18:53:35 <flo> or some new crashes
18:54:07 <flo> that's why we use them on nightlies a few days before they can be in an alpha, or a few weeks before a final release ;)
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18:56:13 <clokep> Ah, I see.
18:59:39 <flo> when I push it to our nightlies, it's good enough to connect the accounts though ;)
19:00:06 <clokep> Excuse me if that doesn't sound super confident. :P
19:00:27 <clokep> I would imagine 2.6.* > 2.7.* might have more breakage then normal too.
19:02:13 <flo> I would expect more work needed to merge it
19:02:17 <flo> but not necessarily more bugs
19:03:10 <flo> when they bump the minor version number it's usually because of API additions
19:06:55 <tymerkaev> flo: you're still building on mozilla-1.9.2?
19:07:01 <flo> yes
19:08:31 <tymerkaev> maybe it's time for switch to m-c? 
19:08:53 <tymerkaev> Just for testing
19:09:27 <tymerkaev> flo: ?
19:09:39 --> idechix has joined #instantbird
19:09:39 * ChanServ sets mode +o idechix 
19:09:58 <flo> tymerkaev: there are several incompatible changes. It requires some work to upgrade.
19:10:08 <flo> we will do it before releasing a first alpha :)
19:11:07 <tymerkaev> 0.3a1?
19:11:14 <flo> yeah
19:11:50 <tymerkaev> flo: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ still shows 0.2pre
19:12:16 <flo> yes, there's a bug about it
19:12:34 <flo> your nightly build has upgraded itself to 0.3a1pre, hasn't it?
19:12:58 <tymerkaev> no
19:13:52 <tymerkaev> I've downloaded it manually from http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/2010/07/2010-07-11-14-instantbird/
19:13:54 <clokep> tymerkaev: You can get it from http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/2010/07/2010-07-21-04-instantbird/
19:14:43 <clokep> flo: Didn't all those FTP pages use to have the Instantbird branding on them?
19:14:53 <flo> yes
19:14:57 <flo> that's a bug too
19:15:10 <clokep> OK, wasn't sure if it was me or a real bug.
19:15:15 <flo> the page were using images of the old website
19:21:07 <clokep> I'm assuming I don't need to file a bug about that then. ;)
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19:42:19 <Mic> hmm, you need an API key to access the Flickr API :s
19:44:38 <flo> We will need to find a "solution" for all those API keys
19:45:16 <flo> maybe we could get 2 sets of keys. One for releases with the official branding, and one for all the other builds (debug, nightlies, user-compiled, ...)
19:45:37 <flo> both sets would still be public in the source code though :-/
19:46:39 <clokep> Flickr uses a similar system to Twitter?
19:47:05 <flo> facebook has such a system too
19:48:22 <clokep> It doesn't make any sense. :P
19:48:37 <clokep> Just let me use my password and username haha.
19:49:12 <clokep> I haven't heard anything abotu the Twitter solution yet, I'm not sure if you've been following.
19:49:40 <deOmega> hi.. regarding indication of progress or planned progress discussed today:  my two cents
19:49:44 <flo> I haven't followed, except when you gave links
19:50:02 <clokep> I checked two weeks ago but nothign seemed resolved still.
19:50:07 <clokep> Hello deOmega.
19:52:34 <deOmega> Maybe i do not try hard enough, and maybe i do not look close enough, and i have looked at the roadmap, which is not  easily located last I check (last week I think)  (Hi clokep)    BUt I find it rather a challenge to really know what was implemented without asking or stumbling upon it.   I believe that  the user community in general are hard to satisfy and nothing can ever be done correctly enough or fast enough
19:52:46 <Mic> flo: I was wondering why the video-preview guy used a third-party web page to get the preview images
19:52:55 <Mic> I guess I understand now ;)
19:53:46 <deOmega> And i understand that  giving dates is a good thing to keep out ofthe  picture.   But I believe that  baiting accessible roadmaps and  highlighting   accomplishments in as many release as possible,  go a very long way
19:54:12 <deOmega> Just gives a feeling of things happenig, as opposed to just getting stabilized
19:55:23 <flo> deOmega: the problem is to communicate both in a way that shows potential users that the project is active and promising, and in a way that encourages people to contribute
19:55:24 <deOmega> This may not make sense to aprogrammer that has to  dig so deep and go through 1000 lines to fix a little blip, but, sadly, users liek myself may not have teh capacity to understand or give consideration for such
19:56:02 <flo> obviously, during the 0.2 cycle we sucked on both of these things :-/
19:56:53 <deOmega> I hate to  compare with another program, but i really like teh way songbird was laid out.  I was actually able to point someone to the road map which had a link to  more details of what is being tackled and he was able to look for ways there that he could help
19:57:36 <deOmega> I am pleased to see you aknowledge the lapse with .2.   It  just felt 'dead'
19:57:47 <clokep> Songbird is run by a company also, not that that's an excuse, just an observation. :)
19:57:54 <deOmega> And i was troubled myself 
19:57:56 <flo> and more people
19:58:32 <deOmega> clokep: flo: I agree and understand.. however,  if one sees a decent model, not a bad idea to mimic the parts of it that are doable and applicable.. regardless of one's situation
19:58:47 <deOmega> as long as a desired objective could be achieved
19:58:58 <clokep> deOmega: Do you have any suggestions of how to get the community involved? As you pointed out your perspective is quite a bit different as being less technical. :)
19:59:26 <flo> deOmega: sure. We were just pointing out that even with the same "idea"/model, we won't get exactly the same result
19:59:34 <clokep> Is there a better way to keep a "conversation" between users and programmers?
20:00:00 <deOmega> I am gonna  think about it as opposed to respnding in a knee jerk fashin.
20:00:02 <clokep> (I.e. would more regular blog posts suffice, a mailing list, or what would?)
20:00:04 <flo> clokep: we need to improve our communication with translators too ;)
20:00:27 <clokep> Doesn't bother me. :-D
20:00:54 <clokep> But yes, that would be good. I think a mailing list might be good for them as you said before.
20:00:57 <flo> we want to offer translators a way to localize our website too.
20:01:12 <flo> it's too bad we offer localized builds with a nice website that requires people to understand english
20:01:31 <clokep> Mmhmm. :-\ I don't know much about translation but haven't these problems been "solved"?
20:02:06 <flo> which problems? :-D
20:02:14 <deOmega> But i will say this.. When i first discovered IB.. i was hopeful by teh model, and i  commented to others... as long as these guys do not give up,  this shoud bea hit.
20:02:37 <clokep> Allowing translators to easily translate without much technical knowledge?
20:02:41 <Mic> extension idea: setting custom colors for users (the three of you are all colored in shades of red for me)
20:02:53 <clokep> I envision a website that has english strings and textboxes, you finish and hit "submit".
20:02:56 <deOmega> Since that time, especially receintly, i  do not have that concern of you guys giving up, as i believe you are nearing a point where if you give up, someone else will be eager to continue
20:03:08 <flo> clokep: you are red too! deOmega is pink though :)
20:03:10 <deOmega> sorry for my rant, i  will be finished soon
20:03:27 <clokep> Not a rant, its helpful to get input from many people.
20:03:50 <flo> deOmega: so you think we are about to give up?
20:04:09 <deOmega> It is hard for me to come in here and be quiet, because when u guys  mention something exciting, i want to go on and on.. and to be honest, i also get distracted from my work, as i find what you do ABSOLUTELY interesting
20:04:16 <clokep> flo: To quote him: "i do not have that concern of you guys giving up"
20:04:56 <flo> clokep: "as i believe [...] someone else will be eager to continue"
20:05:04 <deOmega> so, one way of controlling myself is to lessen my time in here as i cannot control myself... because in all honesty... wheni am not in here and i see you your dialogs... it seems so productive
20:05:09 <clokep> Could be seen either way I suppose. ;)
20:05:39 <deOmega> whereas when i chime in, it  seems like just a discussion of possibilities :(  so i do feel liek i uuse up some valuable time which i feel you guys cannot afford
20:05:45 <flo> deOmega: "seems" is a keyword in that sentence.
20:05:57 <clokep> So I was going through Bugzilla yesterday / today (those searches were helpful, thanks Mic); has it been triaged recently? Are all those bugs still valid?
20:05:59 <flo> real productivity is rather seen in our code repository or bugzilla
20:06:34 <Mic> clokep: I try to go through all the bugs from time to time and clean them up if they're not valid any longer
20:06:39 <flo> deOmega: the scarcest resource is usually motivation, not time ;).
20:06:59 <Mic> Or ask for further details, such stuff
20:07:10 <flo> clokep: Even has triaged the bugs assigned to him today :)
20:07:12 <deOmega> flo: my concern about  you gusy giving up has been removed because of teh progress you have made.  One of teh most significant i feel is having an active addons site (though it is slow)
20:07:14 <clokep> Mic: OK, I wasn't sure. Just seemed like there were some from years ago that the author never replied when asked for mor information, etc.
20:07:32 <Mic> Sure you weren't looking at the closed ones? ;)
20:07:36 <Mic> I know there are some of these
20:07:57 <clokep> Haha, its possible. One sec.
20:08:00 <Mic> I'm not exactly sure what to do about them .. someone official should take care of them
20:08:07 <Mic> The localization bug maybe?
20:08:14 <Mic> Or the hotmail.fr thingie?
20:08:15 <clokep> That was one, yes. :)
20:08:34 <flo> I have to admit I haven't looked through old unconfirmed bug lately. I know Mic does a great job with them, so I only read the emails about the changes :)
20:08:41 <Mic> (I think the latter was posted as MSN authorization issue)
20:10:06 <deOmega> Anyway..  system tray icon, though it may not seem necessary to needed to some of is, one should realize it is a 'basic expectation' for windows messenger users, so i think that woud be a nice accomplishemt to tout.     User icon is also a big thing i agree, and i like  the looks of that mockup from Flo that mic posted:  http://queze.net/goinfre/buddy-list-status.png
20:10:16 <deOmega> Thanks for listening :)
20:10:17 <clokep> bug 20, bug 131, bug 134
20:10:18 <clokep> Maybe others.
20:10:20 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20 nor, P5, ---, florian, UNCO, es-Ar localization
20:10:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, no Emoticons in Buddy List
20:10:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134 min, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Forums on site
20:10:57 <flo> deOmega: you are welcome here ;)
20:11:10 <clokep> I actually looked at implementing system tray a bit today (which from henceforth I'll refer to as "notification area" so I don't get assassinated by Microsoft. :P), but it would require Gecko-2 the way I would do it.
20:11:33 <flo> ah, with js-ctypes? :)
20:11:49 <clokep> flo: Yes. :) They're pretty awesome.
20:11:51 <flo> that could remove quite a bit of the pain! :)
20:12:00 <hicham> without native code ?
20:12:12 <clokep> You have to redefine everything which is kind of a pain, but it keeps me from linking to many system directories, and such.
20:12:23 <clokep> hicham: Yes, you use native libraries but not native code.
20:12:59 <Mic> #131 would be a pain imo
20:13:12 <clokep> Seems to me that those bugs above would be INVALID, WONTFIX, and I'm not sure on the last one, but a decision could be done. :)
20:13:34 <-- hicham has quit (Client exited)
20:14:32 <clokep> And about bug 444 and bug 445 I tried making a new profile last night to see if it was an issue of new vs. migrated profiles, but I didn't run into the problem.
20:14:35 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=444 cri, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, doesnt load contacts
20:14:35 <flo> clokep: I think the decision about the forum was "could be good, but only if someone maintains it for us, we don't want to have to work for it"
20:14:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=445 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Buddy list loads, but doesn't show
20:15:04 <deOmega> by teh way, i was doing a search this weekend to see how actively IB is being discussed.. saw a few posts by patrick dempsey actively promoting and defending IB.
20:15:26 <flo> :)
20:15:31 <clokep> flo: That's the kind of information which might be good to put back into the bug, even just so the user knows.
20:15:34 <clokep> What about directing people to mozillazine?
20:16:22 <deOmega> clokep: YES!  I think IB needs an active  home there
20:16:27 <flo> clokep: that would require their moderators to stop replying "there's a Mozilla messenger already, it's called chatzilla" in posts about Instantbird ;)
20:16:58 <Mic> Let's see on #20, I asked again and maybe we should just close it if he doesn't respond in a reasonable time
20:17:01 <clokep> Blah, yeah I actually am not really a fan of the community in mozillazine.
20:17:24 * clokep thinks we need some guidelines about when bugs become invalid.
20:17:32 <flo> actually, I've never been a fan of the forum idea, because I don't like forums myself
20:17:53 <flo> but I tend to think people who prefer this way to communicate should have it. As long as I don't need to work on it :)
20:18:02 <clokep> I like newsgroups best, mailing lists are OK.
20:18:18 <flo> it's relatively similar, but I would really prefer having an ideatorrent :)
20:18:28 <clokep> I'm not familiar with that?
20:18:37 <clokep> What about something like Get Satisfaction (as much as I hate GS...)
20:18:56 <flo> http://www.ideatorrent.org/
20:19:14 <flo> for an example of real use: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
20:19:55 <clokep> Was just about to ask for one, you read my mind. ;)
20:20:09 <flo> I think it would be a nice complement to bugzilla
20:20:37 <flo> bugzilla is good for bugs, but a bit scary for average users who just want to submit an idea, and feel that their vote counts/they are not alone
20:20:53 <flo> "me too" comments typically hurt in bugzilla, while they are valuable in an ideatorrent
20:20:54 <clokep> Can it also handle "support" tickets in a way?
20:21:06 <flo> it's not a support system
20:21:10 <deOmega> So aren't nightlies supposed to be considered possibly unstable anyway?
20:21:34 <flo> deOmega: yes. Possibly.
20:21:55 <flo> we try to keep them in a good shape, but there's no guarantee that we always succeed.
20:21:57 <clokep> I think it would be good, flo, it would allow anyone to contribute (and Bugzilla /is/ scary) and would encourage more discussion (just about an idea, not the implementation of it).
20:22:48 <flo> something I like about it is that it would treat with the same importance things that should be integrated in the application and add-on ideas
20:23:09 <flo> because deciding if we should integrate it or if it should be an add-on is part of the solution, not of the idea :)
20:23:41 <clokep> True.
20:23:46 <deOmega> ok, so.. imagine this (realize i am not speaking with technical accuracy),  putting in a few features  on a periodic basis.. on yoru way to  .3... and  allow people liek me to say  ' bi bob, you shoud try the  .3 if u have  risk tolerance, it has some of teh features we desire, man, it is really coming along'
20:23:59 <flo> arg. I should have looked at bug 20 before.
20:24:05 <deOmega> This happened for .2 after a while as i can tell from  Dempsey's posts
20:24:07 <deOmega> after a while
20:24:07 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20 nor, P5, ---, florian, UNCO, es-Ar localization
20:24:26 <flo> we have been contacted by the official spanish locale team, and they will handle the localization of Instantbird.
20:24:46 <clokep> deOmega: I'm not sure what you mean by any of that.
20:24:54 <clokep> flo: Awesome! I would guess that's a good localization to have?
20:25:08 <Mic> Spanish's quite widely used :)
20:25:36 <clokep> Yup.
20:25:43 <flo> a repository has been requested recently (today) for Italian too.
20:26:05 <flo> and I added yesterday the repositories for Czech and Slovak
20:26:24 <clokep> Wow.
20:26:25 <flo> in a few days we may have twice the number of locales we had at the time of the 0.2 release
20:26:48 <deOmega> clokep: Sorry,  i have exhausted myself already to be honest :)
20:26:59 <flo> deOmega: isn't this what alpha and beta releases are for?
20:27:11 <Mic> Even though I feel much like translating, it could be useful if I'd do something there
20:27:15 <clokep> So they're doing 0.2 and those will be released when finished or are they working on 0.3a1pre?
20:27:37 <Mic> Maybe just a little to give the real guy a kick in the ass ;)
20:27:44 <flo> clokep: currently that doesn't make any difference
20:28:02 <Mic> * "I don't feel much like" ofcourse
20:28:11 <flo> Mic: I think the "real" guy for German has disappeared :-/
20:28:37 <Mic> Will he get messages about contributions on the translation?
20:28:41 <deOmega> flo: that is true.  I shou dnot have said nightlies.   Ignorance raises its ugly head
20:28:42 <flo> no
20:28:59 <flo> only the person who commits something receives the email (and I'm cc'ed to it)
20:29:27 <Mic> ok, then this approach is worthless 
20:31:39 <flo> I think having developers spend time translating is not really a good use of resources
20:32:01 <flo> except maybe when only a few strings are missing and it prevents the release from being available in that language
20:35:35 <deOmega> clokep: regarding a conversation between users and programmers.  It is not going to be pretty, it  never  can be as there is always gonna be a gap, but I would think the forum that flo has going is godo enough.  Maybe just make it where one has to register to comment (when one registers, one always feels a sense of obligation to do something after that registration)
20:36:31 <deOmega> after each release post, there is a comment area that flo responds to
20:36:47 <flo> deOmega: when I feel compelled to register for something I don't *really* care about, I just close the tab and give up ;)
20:37:28 <deOmega> I understand that perspective also, but if you liek teh project or if  it really has yoru interest,  you would
20:37:52 * flo likes comment from people who don't like it too.
20:38:22 <deOmega> Point taken
20:39:07 <deOmega> clearer link to  roadmap, and if something is being worked on, an  indication would be nice (een if it takes a year :)
20:39:20 <deOmega> http://wiki.songbirdnest.com/Roadmap
20:39:28 <clokep> There's a link to the roadmap in the FAQ now.
20:39:32 <clokep> Where else would you suggest having it?
20:39:36 <deOmega> does not have to be complicated as co  songbird's
20:39:54 <deOmega> I thought on teh home page
20:40:08 <deOmega> this would disappear once most of teh basic features are handled
20:40:20 <clokep> But the majority of people looking at a project just want to use it, not see what's coming next.
20:40:23 <clokep> Hmm...maybe..
20:40:34 <deOmega> and can be  placed more remotely .. asit is now
20:41:07 <deOmega> if basic features ar emissing,  u always wonder.. when? when  am i gonna be able to use this darn thing the way i want to
20:41:39 <flo> deOmega: "basic features" will always be missing
20:41:55 <flo> that phrase has the magic power of changing its meaning each time we add something ;)
20:42:19 <deOmega> please note, I am giving these an my opinion  mainly, but also taking into consideration  comments from  people i have presented IB to.
20:42:22 <flo> supporting webcam on MSN is a "basic feature" for many people
20:42:46 <flo> hmm
20:43:20 <Mic> I agree on the sign-up problem: having to sign up repells me in almost all cases, especially if  it is just a small thing I wanted to say or comment
20:43:21 <flo> maybe we need to have different documents/webpage depending on whether the user finds Instantbird by himself, or if it is being presented to him by someone else
20:44:19 * clokep thinks someone needs to make friends with someone in marketing.
20:44:51 <clokep> I also agree with Mic and flo that registering repels me.
20:44:57 <flo> clokep: is this a specific someone?
20:45:03 <clokep> No.
20:45:24 <clokep> A collective "someone".
20:45:53 <deOmega> I believe i have presented it to about 40-50 individuals (most of us are not techies)... Some are advance.  Most look at the page and tell me,   it looks too early.   5 may have installe dit.  Only one other person i know have it on thei rpc still.   Most  encourage me to tell them when it has made amajor step.
20:45:58 <Mic> I would be fine with signing up IF it would be as easy as entering a new user name and a password into the fields and clicking a "Sign up and login" button
20:46:41 <flo> deOmega: I suspect the version number is the biggest problem for them
20:47:32 <Mic> What if the version number were nearly invisible?
20:47:50 <deOmega>  The only  individuals that commente don that were the knowledgeable guys
20:48:02 <deOmega> the biggest  thing was i started presenting it when there was not an installer
20:48:14 <flo> do you remember how they could tell it was "too early" then? :)
20:48:15 <Mic> Impractical.
20:48:26 <deOmega> no installer
20:48:27 <flo> ah. That was terrible on Windows
20:48:32 <deOmega> drag and drop
20:48:37 <deOmega> not able to do teh things they wanted
20:50:13 <deOmega> I was upfront with them in telling them its limitations
20:50:37 <deOmega> so some never even bothered after hearing  my thoughts
20:51:38 <deOmega> Even myself, as long as i have been messing around with programs.. as i like new toys :)..  never even realized the significance of a version  number
20:51:52 <deOmega> sorry e v e n
20:51:53 <clokep> Drag and drop?
20:52:26 <deOmega> u had to  drag and drop or extract to, to install it before the installation file
20:52:46 <deOmega> the install file ?
20:53:27 <clokep> Oh, right.
20:53:32 <flo> I guess I would need to look at a few people trying Instantbird for the first time
20:53:46 <flo> the things the don't tell may be almost as important as what they say
20:54:20 <flo> things they don't understand quickly and make them frown, ...
20:54:30 <clokep> Its also good to see what people assume will work and doesn't. Like if you're using Instantbird for a couple of years you /know/ certain things don't work, so you don't do it.
20:55:12 <deOmega> clokep: exactly
20:55:16 <flo> I think I've been using it since 2007, august the 21st!
20:55:34 <flo> the first "private" version that could start a conversation (it's the day the buddy list was first implemented)
20:55:35 * clokep finds it kind of weird you know the exact date.
20:55:45 <clokep> Ah, I see. :-D
20:56:03 <flo> clokep: it's because it's idechix's birthday and I emailed him a link to it as a birhday present ;)
20:56:23 <clokep> Oh OK, that's not quite as weird then.
20:56:36 <deOmega> One of the   biggest mistakes some companies make, is not being open to suggestions from new  employees.   Some wait for an employee to  become  institutionalized, to  then heed their opinions.   BUt...  by that time,  they have accepted  most of what is already wrong.
20:56:45 <flo> I think I've kepts these builds somewhere
20:57:10 <flo> seeing the screenshot (and probably trying them for increased effects) shows we've made a long way :)
20:57:52 <deOmega> wow, are you sayng I started using  IB in its first year?
20:58:22 <flo> if it was in 2007, yeah
20:58:31 <flo> 0.1 was released in october
20:58:40 <deOmega> i really believe that year i first started messind with it and i came into this room  through MIRC
20:59:07 <deOmega> And i alwasy remember... 'it wil be ready when it is ready :) "
20:59:56 <-- deOmega has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
21:00:04 <clokep> I need to get going. Need to buy food. :-D Talk to you later.
21:00:10 <-- clokep has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
21:00:21 * flo needs to finish some paperwork
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21:03:19 <deOmega> sorry,  did not mean to leave so abruptly. ... Windows task manager shut me down ..Take care guys.  I hope some good comes out of my ramblings...  I  sincerely hope so more than you may now... not just flooding yoru channel to hear myself speak.    Good luck.
21:03:32 <deOmega> *know
21:04:00 <-- deOmega has left #instantbird ()
21:04:04 <flo> you can also email sometimes ;)
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21:40:47 <-- idechix has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2)
21:43:48 <-- skeledrew has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2)
21:45:59 <Mic> Good night
21:47:34 <flo> Good night! :)
21:59:56 <-- Mic has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.3a1pre)
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23:09:41 <clokep> uuid
23:09:47 <clokep> instantbot: uuid
23:09:48 <instantbot> 9c438280-a2fb-4a5a-a4a3-3599bdf24004 (/msg instantbot cid for CID form)
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