#instantbird log on 06 29 2010

All times are UTC.

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00:28:59 <clokep> Something to add to the FAQ: When working with two instances of Instantbird. Don't close out of your /real/ one. :(
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06:07:13 <Mic> hi
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06:40:39 <flo> Good morning! :)
06:42:57 <Mic> hi
06:43:29 <Mic> The things mentioned on bug 395 don't help to cure bug 384 btw
06:43:32 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=395 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, 64-bit builds
06:43:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=384 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Notifications fail to use libnotify; reason: "Failed to load XPCOM component 'libmozgnome'" message 
06:44:42 <Mic> Unfortunately I know too little about it to do anything about it
06:46:55 <Mic> I've listed the dependencies of libmozgnome, some are misssing but exactly these appear as well as "Unused direct dependencies" .. 
06:48:06 <Mic> Does this mean that they're not needed after all?
07:36:38 <flo> well, creating a 64bit builds should help ;)
08:05:34 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org set the Resolution field on bug 160 to INCOMPLETE.
08:05:37 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160 cri, --, ---, nobody, RESO INCOMPLETE, Crash [@ purpleAccount::GetAlias]
08:05:59 <flo> ah, instantbot has finally decided to read its emails :)
08:06:47 <Morian> I had to put its cache in 666 :(
08:07:23 <Morian> I couldn't find what user is used to execute the perl script :-/ (tried instantbot, morian, postfix)
08:10:37 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de set the Resolution field on bug 388 to FIXED.
08:10:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=388 min, --, ---, raynaudquentin, RESO FIXED, Add search engines to AIO (problem: none there at the moment)
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08:35:37 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de set the Resolution field on bug 62 to WONTFIX.
08:35:45 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62 nor, --, ---, idechix, RESO WONTFIX, Main page is not contains full info about protocols.
09:00:39 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de set the Resolution field on bug 358 to DUPLICATE of bug 384.
09:00:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=358 min, --, ---, nobody, RESO DUPLICATE, Notifications fail to use libnotify
09:00:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=384 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Notifications fail to use libnotify; reason: "Failed to load XPCOM component 'libmozgnome'" message 
09:16:41 <flo> * 1.0: Moving from another IM client to Instantbird should be a pleasant experience.
09:16:47 <flo> does this look like a reasonable goal? :)
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09:18:08 <Mic> Sounds good at least
09:21:43 <flo> :)
09:24:59 <flo> I'm looking for a title for the blog post we were polishing yesterday. What about: "Our goals: toward 0.2 and beyond"?
09:35:42 <Mic> Sounds good to me
09:49:33 <flo> I've just updated the roadmap: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Roadmap
09:51:54 <Mic> And with the release of 0.2 the 0.2 section will be removed?
09:51:57 <Mic> ;)
09:52:04 <flo> moved to the timeline I guess
09:53:12 <Mic> hmm, maybe I'll change the headlines in the timeline to emphasize the version 
09:56:30 <Mic> hmm, this kills the ToC
10:03:50 <Mic> flo: do you plan to stick to the version numbering scheme?
10:03:58 <flo> not sure
10:04:32 <flo> at some point we thought 0.2 could be called 0.5 as we seem to be halfway of the goals we had for 1.0
10:04:56 <Mic> I was more thinking about the psychological point of view ;)
10:05:43 <Mic> It's completely subjective ofcourse but I think using 2.0 feels better than 0.2 ;)
10:06:19 <flo> "2.0 BETA" instead of 0.2 final ? :-D
10:12:40 <Mic> "Instantbird 2010" ? ;)
10:13:58 <Mic> I was more or less serious on the 0.2 thing.
10:14:07 <Mic> I don't think low version numbers are good advertisement
10:14:35 <flo> yeah, I know
10:14:51 <flo> but I don't think what we released as 0.1 could have deserved 1.0 at the time
10:15:23 <Mic> I wanted to point out the problem
10:16:02 <Mic> and not suggest any specific version number
10:16:02 <flo> people used to having beta versions of microsoft products numbered "7" make strange assumptions about applications with <1.0 version numbers
10:16:31 <Mic> People on other system might have problems with version numbers that aren't prime..
10:16:47 <Mic> .. or don't converge to a fancy number ;)
10:17:01 <flo> :)
10:19:16 <Mic> Early lunch today :)
10:19:16 <Mic> bbl
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11:57:53 <skeledrew> morning
11:58:03 <flo> afternoon
11:58:32 <clokep_work> Good morning.
12:00:25 <clokep_work> I like the version numbering the way it is. I think jumping to 0.5 is reasonable when you its "usable" by the "general public" and maybe jumping to 0.9 when there's only a few things missing from 1.0.
12:00:43 <clokep_work> flo: Migrating from other IM clients would be great (i.e. reading accounts.xml, logs, etc. from Pidgin?)
12:01:06 <skeledrew> flo: definitely
12:01:17 <flo> "Pidgin" looks like a massive reduction of "other IM client*s*" ;)
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12:01:39 <skeledrew> a common migration interface would be freat
12:01:45 <skeledrew> *great
12:01:48 <flo> the way I see it is
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12:02:33 <flo> at first startup, a wizard pops up, saying "Welcome to Instantbird. blahblahblah" "Would you like to try and import existing accounts already setup on this computer?"
12:02:55 <skeledrew> i'd say more like the aggregation of all the basic features of other popular clients
12:02:56 <clokep_work> You mean like Firefox asks from IE? ;)
12:03:03 <skeledrew> yeah
12:03:10 <clokep_work> Pidgin is a massive reduction, but its the only one I know file names for. :P
12:03:20 <flo> if the user agrees, we scan the computer for installed IM software, look inside their profil folders/the registry/whatever, and we get anything we can (username, password, logs, ...)
12:03:37 <clokep_work> Buddy icons. ;)
12:03:48 <flo> whatever crap there is on the hard disk ;)
12:03:49 <skeledrew> what about portable IMs?
12:04:29 <flo> skeledrew: you mean, saying in the wizard "I know you have a dozen USB stick on your desk, please insert each of them so that I can see if you have some hidden IM accounts in these."? :)
12:04:37 <clokep_work> Those would be super hard to find without scanning the entire drive. :(
12:04:40 <skeledrew> lol
12:04:45 <skeledrew> something like that
12:05:15 <skeledrew> i'm actually running the majority of my apps as portables
12:05:20 <flo> this needs to be extensible
12:05:29 <flo> we will target first the common clients
12:05:33 <skeledrew> makes things alot easier when i have to reinstall my OS
12:05:57 <skeledrew> Pidgin, Digsby, Tridium, ...
12:05:58 <flo> skeledrew: it's even easier to *not* reinstall the OS.
12:06:03 <clokep_work> Adium
12:06:17 <flo> Windows Live Messenger, AOL, Yahoo!, ...
12:06:20 <clokep_work> AIM, MSN, WinLive, Yahoo, Yahoo J, ICQ :P
12:06:25 <skeledrew> flo: not when you've messed it up beyond recovery :P
12:06:52 <flo> skeledrew: there are OSes that are harder to mess up than others
12:07:08 <clokep_work> DOS is pretty hard to mess up. :)
12:07:20 <clokep_work> Although there's not much to mess up...
12:07:22 <flo> clokep_work: so is a paper sheet.
12:07:28 <skeledrew> flo: there are also some OSes that cause dependency on it due to specific apps...
12:07:51 <skeledrew> clokep_work: true
12:08:01 <skeledrew> DOS is fun too ;)
12:08:38 <clokep_work> flo: I like the new roadmap. It seems a bit more focused and less wishy washy. :P
12:08:50 <flo> thanks :)
12:08:57 <skeledrew> i need to check that out :)
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12:12:11 <skeledrew> re emoticons, i really like how Pidgin has couple hundred smileys for it's default, but most're actually protocol specific in the theme file...
12:13:08 <clokep_work> Doesn't that not fit into what Instantbird is supposed to be though? Its meant as a layer between the user and the protocols.
12:13:17 <clokep_work> I.e. why shouldn't ever protocol have the same emoticons.
12:13:36 <flo> yeah, protocol specific stuff that are not useful should progressively disappear from the UI.
12:14:21 <flo> there are 2 opposite ways of seeing this:
12:14:48 <flo> 1. The conversation should look as close as possible as what the other users can see. (in this case, protocol specific emoticons make a lot of sense)
12:15:11 <skeledrew> clokep_work: each protocol supports it's own set of smileys (except the more common such as :), :(, :P, etc), and also the sequences used to evoke them...
12:15:16 <flo> 2. Which protocol is in use is a technical detail that the user doesn't need to care about, and should not be visible at all.
12:15:40 <skeledrew> flo: true
12:16:00 <clokep_work> skeledrew: I know, but we can solve that in software. ;)
12:16:04 <flo> The decision between the 2 ways of seeing this is hard, because both points are valid.
12:16:19 <flo> I tend to prefer 2. because it fits more with our "simplicity" goal
12:16:26 <skeledrew> lemme pastebin the Pidgin theme file...
12:16:48 <flo> if people want to go the other way around with add-on, that's up to them of course :)
12:18:14 <skeledrew> http://pastebin.instantbird.com/266
12:19:07 <clokep_work> Bah this Twitter-OAuth-Opensource thing is a mess. :(
12:19:23 <skeledrew> it supports a small generic set, then the protocol specific ones
12:20:50 <flo> skeledrew: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Brainstorm:smileythemes
12:20:54 <skeledrew> hmm. maybe it could be made so protocol themes can be individually added, instead of having to specify all the supported protos in a single file
12:21:42 <flo> what's the point?
12:21:57 <skeledrew> not sure...
12:22:02 <skeledrew> ... yet :)
12:22:26 <flo> by the way, if you *really* want to have protocol specific emoticons, the way to do it is: change the code so that each conversation can use a different emoticon theme (relatively easy to do, as it's already the case for message themes, you just need to copy/adapt)
12:22:43 <flo> then, create an add-on that changes the theme based on which protocol is used in each conversation
12:22:56 <skeledrew> i am kinda fed up with getting smileys that show as text and i have no idea what it is though :(
12:23:17 <flo> (or based on any other criterion, really... Like you could have pink emoticons when talking with your significant other if you like)
12:23:21 <skeledrew> hmm. k
12:23:39 * skeledrew 's wish list continues to grow
12:23:54 <skeledrew> lol
12:24:00 <skeledrew> that's rich
12:25:20 <skeledrew> i need to reboot my education. i'm getting bogged down. gotta start learning from the VERY basics...
12:25:35 <flo> 1+1? :)
12:26:17 <clokep_work> 10
12:26:28 <flo> clokep_work: great :)
12:26:41 <skeledrew> lol
12:27:12 <skeledrew> i'd be more like 9+1=A...
12:27:57 <skeledrew> but i'm going for some Xulrunner tuts...
12:28:13 <clokep_work> I found the XUL School tutorial on MDC to be good.
12:28:20 <clokep_work> And the "XUL Tutorial" haha.
12:28:27 <skeledrew> k
12:28:44 <skeledrew> IB could do with some serious documentation still
12:29:05 <clokep_work> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XUL_Tutorial and https://developer.mozilla.org/en/XUL_School
12:29:05 <skeledrew> if i knew the inner workings more i'd contribute there
12:29:24 <skeledrew> clokep_work: thanks
12:30:13 <clokep_work> I actually read a XBL tutorial yesterday during lunch...so now I understand it a lot better hah.
12:30:37 <clokep_work> XPCOM still frustrates me a lot though, I think its the syntax more then anything. :(
12:30:49 <skeledrew> it's really frustrating trying to build addons and having to work in the dark re usage of libpurple/xpcom/whatever interfaces
12:31:24 <clokep_work> skeledrew: Yeah, really the source is the only reference right now. :( Which occasionally could use better comments. ;)
12:31:53 <clokep_work> flo: Speaking of which...if the hg repo for addons is to be /the/ example for developers...they should probably have more explicit comments of what each grouping of lines does, etc.
12:32:52 <skeledrew> and since i'm a scientist ;) and not an engineer :P i tend to have much more ideas than i implement, and working blind makes it worse...
12:34:09 <flo> clokep_work: more comments there could certainly help
12:34:36 <clokep_work> flo: Just saying since I noticed it while I was working off reply to nick (which...I might have found a bug in...?)
12:34:44 <flo> but I guess that will stay a resource for people who already know most of the technologies used, and mosty want something to copy past to start quickly on a new idea
12:35:00 <flo> for people really learning, at some point we will need to write tutorials or something
12:35:30 <skeledrew> flo: i like writing :)
12:35:48 <flo> I don't! ;)
12:35:54 <skeledrew> lol
12:35:59 <flo> I'm especially poor at communicating about what we've already done
12:36:09 <skeledrew> you're an engineer...
12:36:10 <clokep_work> I don't mind writing technical documents or code. :P Not a big fan of tutorials.
12:36:32 <skeledrew> tech docs aren't really my thing...
12:36:34 <flo> skeledrew: I also spent some time in a research laboratory ;).
12:36:43 <flo> and I often read HCI papers
12:36:49 <clokep_work> -moz-transform: rotate is available in Gecko 1.9.2.*, right?
12:36:51 <skeledrew> good for you :)
12:37:12 <flo> clokep_work: I think so
12:37:41 <clokep_work> flo: I'm thinking of rotating the tabs using it when I put them vertical...then rotating the contents in the opposite direction...
12:38:02 <skeledrew> :-s
12:38:14 <skeledrew> oook...
12:38:35 <clokep_work> (A lot less work then rewriting *stripe/tabbrowser.css :(.)
12:39:31 <flo> by the way, you said your vertical tabs worked but didn't look great
12:39:37 <flo> may we see a screenshot? :)
12:40:08 <skeledrew> hmm. a command to extract links of any kind from convos (instead of scrolling up) would be nice...
12:40:20 * skeledrew is adding to the wish list
12:40:22 <clokep_work> flo: They look a lot better now that I started to rewrite winstripe css files. Its just a matter of swapping values (i.e. height --> width, the "top" becomes the "left", etc.)
12:40:38 <clokep_work> I'll post one tonight. At work currently.
12:40:49 <flo> ok :)
12:41:07 <clokep_work> But Drag-and-Drop isn't really working. :-\
12:41:21 <clokep_work> I think I didn't rotate the drop bar. :-D
12:41:26 <flo> swap clientX with clientY in the code? :)
12:42:24 <clokep_work> Did that. But I think I missed a function.
12:43:31 <clokep_work> I think I missed _onDragStart...
12:43:59 <clokep_work> Wait nope. Did that I'm pretty sure...not sure. Haha.
12:44:48 <flo> clokep_work: "I'm pretty sure...not sure. " is confusing ;)
12:45:24 <clokep_work> I think I did _onDragStart, _onDrop and _onDragEnd, but I didn't have time to debug that code. Was trying to make it pretty looking first. :)
12:45:30 <clokep_work> The hot keys should still work.
12:48:19 <clokep_work> That's phase 3 of my 3 phase plan. ;)
12:51:22 <clokep_work> I'll put up my code on a repository somewhere and all. Just wasn't sure if I wanted to make separate projects for each or put them all up together. And didn't feel like filling out the crazy forms on AIO to put them there. :P
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13:02:42 <clokep_work> flo: Have you seen http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/DesignGuidelines (specifically a link: http://www.pidgin.im/~seanegan/cgi-bin/pyblosxom.cgi/identity.html)
13:03:07 <clokep_work> (And also http://www106.pair.com/rhp/free-software-ui.html)
13:05:22 <flo> clokep_work: is there a specific important point I should notice?
13:06:20 <clokep_work> Sorry, the Uniformity/Simpler is Better, re our conversation earlier about whether protocol emoticons are appropriate and the 2 schools of thought..
13:06:34 <clokep_work> I guess taht second link the "identity" one is most applciable. :)
13:06:36 <clokep_work> *applicable
13:07:00 <clokep_work> According to that Pidgin wants to hide the user from protocols, but I think they door a poor job of it. :(
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13:31:02 <flo> Mic: I pushed the linkbugzilla add-on to the addon repo without the icon. Both because I'm not sure yet about the changes in the makefile, and because that part of the diff didn't apply (hg import failed on it)
13:48:44 <Mic> maybe I'll do another patch .. I stripped away localizability which was initially there because I failed to see that it would work
13:49:05 <Mic> Which part? The icon (ie the binary data?)
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13:52:34 <flo> yes, the binary data
13:52:45 <Mic> Any special remarks on the other extensions?
13:53:00 <flo> the other extensions?
13:53:12 <Mic> I'd like to add some characteristics to the Extension article, so people know which one to look at if they're looking for something special
13:53:19 <flo> ah
13:53:31 <Mic> e.g. localizability, preferences, text modifier example, .. 
13:53:47 <Mic> enhancing the UI, enhancing a conversation, ..
13:56:07 <flo> oh, so some info about which parts of the code are interesting?
13:56:44 <Mic> Yes, I already grouped them on the article but if there's something else to say I'd add it
13:57:00 <flo> colorize and highlight can change properties of messages before they are displayed.
13:57:29 <flo> show nick finds the message object from the HTML code that is clicked.
13:59:28 <Mic> Anything else?
13:59:54 <flo> replacing/extending a method of conversation.xml /tabbrowser.xml
14:00:34 <Mic> that is on "reply to nick"?
14:00:42 <flo> I don't remember
14:00:50 <flo> but it's relatively easy to see
14:04:18 <flo> that's for colorize at least
14:04:35 <Mic> https://hg.instantbird.org/addons/repos/file/d9d27fcdbaf3/colorize/content/colorize.js#l59
14:04:46 <Mic> ah, exactly
14:05:05 <flo> show nick too
14:05:27 <flo> not reply to nick
14:05:38 <flo> it just uses a simple event listener
14:13:13 * Mic wonders which language the captcha words are based on .. 
14:15:08 * clokep_work wonders what languages include both numbers and letters in words. :P
14:15:27 <Mic> I haven't seen that on the wiki yet
14:15:33 <Mic> Maybe that was exactly the problem ;)
14:15:37 <flo> where are those captcha?
14:15:47 <Mic> When adding new links
14:15:54 <clokep_work> (external links)
14:15:55 <flo> ah
14:15:55 <Mic> I think you don't see them as admin
14:16:06 <clokep_work> Yeah, they're annoying. :)
14:16:14 <flo> is there any group that I can add to your account so that you don't waste your time with that crap?
14:16:28 <clokep_work> Is there a "verified" group?
14:16:36 <clokep_work> Based on email verification?
14:16:37 <flo> I don't know
14:16:40 <Mic> No idea, ask Even or google? ;)
14:16:43 <flo> I've never really administrated a wiki
14:17:52 <clokep_work> I have(/do?) a couple of Wikia ones, but they're set up weird.
14:17:57 <flo> is that page publicly visible: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Special:ListGroupRights ?
14:18:25 <clokep_work> Yes.
14:18:46 <clokep_work> "autoconfirmed" might allow no captchas...
14:19:02 <clokep_work> (I don't remember receiving a confirmation email? But we might have haha.)
14:19:07 <Mic> There's "skipcaptcha"
14:19:14 <Mic> Is that a sort of group or a flag or so?
14:20:07 <clokep_work> Seems to be a flag that bots and admins have.
14:24:20 <flo> well, sorry, I don't see how to do it :(
14:27:19 <Mic> bye
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14:58:34 <flo> I put on the wiki the drafts I have of the next blog posts: https://wiki.instantbird.org/User:Fqueze/0.2_Launch
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15:38:57 * clokep_work reading through the blog posts.
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16:38:00 <Mic> flo: what about another article on the extensibility in general?
16:39:12 <Mic> It would give some examples (some of our users like to save their vertical space for conversations, that's why someone moved the tab bar on the side of the window) .. <screenshots..>
16:39:14 <clokep_work> Or maybe more generally a "how to get involved" article, a section on extensibility, filing bugs, using pre-release builds, (themes? etc?)
16:39:40 <Mic> It would display several interesting things, introduce to AIO, ..
16:47:17 <clokep_work> We should probably just write it ourselves. :p
16:51:56 <Mic> Do you know how to add "~~~~" in a template?
16:52:15 <Mic> I'd like to have the contributions using this template be automatically signed
16:52:59 <Mic> nevermind I found something
16:53:07 <clokep_work> Uhh...
16:53:11 <clokep_work> Yes.
16:53:29 <clokep_work> I think you do <includeonly>~~~~</includeonly> should do it.
16:54:59 <Mic> hmm, sounds better
16:55:13 <Mic> I was thinking about using the respective variables
17:01:03 <clokep_work> :) What template you making?
17:02:09 <Mic> Let me try it somewhere, it's just doing some fancy things
17:02:26 <clokep_work> Oh OK.
17:02:56 <Mic> For commenting on the blogs, {{comment|oldText|newText}} will give a fancy display and sign the comment automatically
17:04:01 <clokep_work> Cool.
17:04:13 <clokep_work> Is this for commenting inline or on the talk page? ;)
17:05:30 <Mic> https://wiki.instantbird.org/User:Mic
17:05:53 <Mic> inline
17:08:19 <clokep_work> I would not have the signature be green background, maybe make the font color gray or something? :P
17:08:24 <clokep_work> And small?
17:08:54 <Mic> Size depending on the moon phase? :P
17:09:05 <clokep_work> Nope. :P
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17:14:18 <Mic> I separated it and made it grey
17:14:49 <clokep_work> I like. :)
17:14:52 <Mic> I haven't changed the font size as it would break the "inline"-look with its different height
17:14:52 <clokep_work> Lets me ignore it now.
17:15:01 <clokep_work> True.
17:15:16 <Mic> Dinner now, bbl
17:30:37 <clokep_work> Bah trying to make it work a little better (I succeeded with part, failed with the other part. :()
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17:32:05 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
17:40:34 <clokep_work> Mic: If I remember its very difficult to get a signature to auto include and I think the "traditional" way to do it is you had another field and the user just does it when they use the tempalte.
17:40:49 <clokep_work> Actually, no, it has to be done that way...
17:41:50 <clokep_work> Because it has to be done at "edit" time, so it has to has to be saved to the page, so it has to be taken as an input to the template.
17:41:55 <flo> if you fix typos or english mistakes in the blog post drafts, you don't need to bother signing ;)
17:42:50 <clokep_work> flo: I didn't find any.
17:43:16 <clokep_work> But only skimmed quickly. I'll re-read 'em later.
17:44:31 <flo> by the way, suggesting/writing posts that we can post after the 0.2 release is a great idea ;)
17:44:49 <flo> we would like to make sure we post frequently (even if it's short) so that people can see we are alive :)
17:45:14 <clokep_work> Once a month? Every couple of weeks? How often? :P
17:49:35 <clokep_work> I like the topics. One thing I noticed was...there's a bunch of things you'd have no way of finding in Instantbird.
17:49:41 <clokep_work> i.e. Ctrl++ is zoom in?
17:50:19 <clokep_work> In Firefox you go "View" > "Zoom" > "Zoom In" and it gives the hotkey (Ctrl++) next to it, but there's no such menu in Instantbird to display the hotkey...
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18:01:17 <Mic> ah, I explicitely put the signing out of peoples fingers
18:01:27 <Mic> *took
18:01:32 <clokep_work> You can't though.
18:01:42 <clokep_work> Unless the template is subst:ed
18:01:51 <clokep_work> But I don't think that's what you want since it would make the source page unreadable.
18:03:05 <clokep_work> Wiki Templates are actually really weak. I'm not a huge fan. :-\
18:03:09 <Mic> Like this we could just add templates that do fancy colors
18:03:41 <flo> Morian: is instantbot still reading its rss feeds?
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18:28:37 <Mic> How do you do such a thing normally in MediaWiki?
18:30:16 <Mic> Not "the traditional way" but if you want to achieve what I was planning
18:31:27 <Mic> Subst inserts not only the template but replaces the "call" with the output if I'm not mistaken
18:31:48 <Mic> -only
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18:35:44 <clokep_work> Mic: You can't.
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18:36:01 <clokep_work> Yes, it takes the full content and places it into the page.
18:42:10 <Mic> hmpf.. this sucks.
18:42:33 <Mic> It doesn't replace variables before subst-ing :S
18:44:45 <clokep_work> Yeah, its a pain.
18:44:53 <Mic> Nevermind ..
18:45:24 <clokep_work> MediaWiki is also ugly. :)
18:51:35 <Mic> flo: is there anything speaking against having the 'color parameters' as separate variables?
18:53:19 <Mic> That would be %senderColorSaturation%, ..
19:02:44 <flo> Mic: we need to do something to make it easy for message themes to use the color and its variants.
19:03:10 <flo> didn't you mean senderColorHue by the way?
19:04:01 <Mic> Isn't it .. 
19:04:06 <Mic> hue, saturation and ..
19:04:12 <Mic> luminence?
19:05:19 <Mic> I thought it might supply the same parameters as they are used in the participants list
19:05:58 <Mic> If the theme decides not to use some of it because it wants set a certain saturation and luminance itself then they still can
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19:10:12 <flo> oh, you meant providing the 3 values?
19:11:21 <Mic> yes
19:11:40 <Mic> Imo the theme should be able to reproduce the color from the list
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19:15:34 <flo> I understand. I first thought you wanted only the hue because that's the only value that (currently) isn't a constant.
19:28:30 * clokep_work editing flo's blog posts.
19:30:11 <flo> :)
19:30:32 <clokep_work> The nice think about wiki's is it keeps diffs to. :) So I'll just edit it and you can always reject stuff if you want?
19:31:23 <flo> absolutely
19:31:31 <flo> edit freely, I'll look at the modifications later
19:31:47 <flo> you don't even need to sign, as long as you are logged in when you edit
19:32:21 <clokep_work> Yeah, you can't edit on WIO without being logged in. ;)
19:32:36 <flo> that's what I was wondering :-D
19:32:46 <clokep_work> "On Mac OS X, the active conversation window is easy..." is that supposed to be "window" or shuold it be "tab"? I'm not sure of the exact context...
19:32:59 <clokep_work> "On Mac OS X, the active conversation window is easy to distinguish from the others, thanks to different colors of the tabs."
19:33:07 <clokep_work> Beginning talks about windows, end talks about tabs...?
19:35:02 <flo> it's all the upper part of the window that is dark grey (active window) or light grey (inactive window)
19:35:22 <flo> it's exactly like on Firefox 3+
19:36:15 <clokep_work> I rarely use a Mac, last time I used one was my ex's I think? That's been like a year. ;)
19:36:29 <clokep_work> But OK!
19:36:36 <flo> clokep_work: http://queze.net/goinfre/tabbar-macosx.png
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19:37:01 <clokep_work> Fancy that. :)
19:37:05 * skeledrew2 is now known as skeledrew
19:37:09 <flo> that's actually useful ;)
19:38:02 <flo> seen on twitter: "Did you know there's a Mozilla instant-messenging client? I didn't! It is Instantbird"
19:38:27 <flo> "I hadn't heard of this project before: Mozilla InstantBird: http://www.instantbird.com/  0.2 will be landing shortly."
19:38:30 <clokep_work> Songbird gets that a lot too.
19:38:44 <clokep_work> But does it say Mozilla anywhere? :P
19:39:01 <flo> I'm not sure if we should post explaining how much official support we get from the Mozilla Foundation (= none).
19:39:08 <flo> well, we use the irc server :)
19:39:15 <clokep_work> Pet peeve of mine: people that incorrectly capitalize ThunderBird, FireFox, InstantBird, SongBird, etc. :(
19:39:28 <flo> that too!
19:39:51 <flo> and people who wrote "instabird" all over the place...
19:40:18 <clokep_work> Maybe instead of saying "Mozilla rendering engine" you should say "XULRunner toolkit (which Mozilla Firefox runs on)" or something.
19:40:28 <flo> I guess as long as they spread the software I don't care
19:40:32 <clokep_work> But if you're redoing the homepage for more users not devs, they don't care about that stuff. :)
19:40:36 <clokep_work> Touche.
19:40:45 <flo> what about "powered by mozilla"?
19:41:00 <clokep_work> There's powered by Mozilla images actually.
19:41:07 <flo> yeah, like on our home page
19:41:09 <Mic> :)
19:41:22 <flo> it's smaller on the new home page though
19:41:29 <Mic> I wasn't sure where the "Powered by Mozilla" picture in my head came from :D
19:41:40 <clokep_work> Ah I see.
19:42:07 <flo> It anoys my by the way that from the foundation's website pages, Pidgin is as much powered by Mozilla as Instantbird
19:42:13 <flo> (they use NSS)
19:42:20 <flo> *annoys me
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19:42:42 <clokep_work> :-\
19:42:57 <clokep_work> Is the Instantbird blog on Planet?
19:43:01 <flo> but they didn't include Google Chrome (also uses NSS) in the list of "Mozilla powered software", "because it could lead to confusion"
19:43:03 <Mic> Doesn't say so on the poweredby page
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19:43:16 <clokep_work> Yeah, but the poweredby page is like 16 links deep
19:43:25 <clokep_work> And you have to go through the foundation's page first I think.
19:43:40 <flo> Mic: ah, right, on the "powered by page" :)
19:44:04 <clokep_work> The prefwindow article is very short. :(
19:44:09 <Mic> Have you ever clicked the link that you put on your frontpage? ;)
19:44:17 <Mic> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/powered-by.html
19:44:27 <flo> I confused "powered by" and "Mozilla-based applications", sorry
19:44:43 <flo> clokep_work: because there will be several screenshots
19:44:51 <flo> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mozilla-based.html
19:46:21 <Mic> What do you think?
19:46:31 <clokep_work> flo: That link is silly it has a lot of stuff that uses only NSS or whatever to things that I wish were extensions instead of forks. :(
19:46:43 * clokep_work dislikes forking of software.
19:46:50 <Mic> Will there ever be extensions to edit spreadsheets or administrate your databases from within Instantbir?
19:47:10 <flo> Mic: extension authors do whatever they like ;)
19:47:32 <flo> *I* won't do it except if I'm paid for it enough to make the other parts of the project sustainable.
19:47:58 <clokep_work> Mic: Is that aimed at me? I'm not saying that should be an extension. I'm saying things like Spicebird or Postbox or Trustedbird (since I'm more familiar with Tb forks).
19:48:22 <Mic> No, I'm aiming at the people that use Firefox as Desktop replacement
19:48:50 <flo> clokep_work: I think calling "Mozilla-based application" something that is not extensible and doesn't use the XUL plateform is misleading.
19:49:00 <clokep_work> Mic: Ah, gotcha. I mean you could probably make a damn good spreadsheet program in XUL, but it shouldn't be an extension. :)
19:49:02 <flo> but I guess the goal was to make the list as long as possible.
19:49:22 <clokep_work> flo: Probably written by an American: "Bigger is better." ;)
19:49:38 <clokep_work> (I'm allowed to make fun of myself, right?)
19:49:49 <flo> sure!
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19:50:31 <flo> I think a few months ago DetroitLibertyPenguin self proclamed being Instantbird's american asshole :-P
19:51:00 <flo> I don't remember what the joke was about though :(
19:51:01 <clokep_work> flo: I don't want that seat. He can have it. :)
19:51:55 <flo> by the way, it seems that the days when French people have the majority here are gone
19:52:29 <flo> only 3 out of 12
19:52:37 <flo> hmm, not sure if Instantbot is French
19:52:43 <flo> instantbot: are you French?
19:52:44 <Mic> You still might use your botgiven powers;)
19:52:46 <instantbot> flo: Sorry, I've no idea what 'are you French' might be.
19:53:00 <flo> !8ball Is instantbot french?
19:53:01 <instantbot> flo: _I_ don't know.
19:57:59 <clokep_work> flo: "...you are expected to know what you do: testing." err...I have no idea what that's trying to say. :)
19:59:01 <flo> if you are on a nightly build, you are supposed to be here to help us *test* the bleeding edge, not just be a cool kid who's got the new toys first
19:59:16 <flo> so if there are bugs, don't complain!
19:59:17 <flo> :)
19:59:26 <flo> (but do report them, of course :))
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20:01:22 <Mic> reminds me that I wanted to ditch 0.2pre and get on of these js-proto things ;)
20:02:10 <flo> wanna play with omegle?
20:02:13 <Mic> Is this still valid: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Cleanup
20:02:14 <clokep_work> Mic: Just check out the differenrt branch. :P
20:02:38 <Mic> I know .. I just can't compile here at home
20:02:43 <flo> hmm, a blog post written today, with a screenshot of http://blogzardoz.blogspot.com/2010/06/instantbird-programa-de-mensajeria.html sad :(
20:02:57 <clokep_work> flo: Reply to it.
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20:03:11 <clokep_work> (Or email the author).
20:03:23 <flo> Mic: "Document/fix/optimize (--> rationalize) functions using mozStorage. " that was done in 0.1.1 or 0.1.2
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20:03:38 <flo> I started working on the 2 other points in the js-proto branch
20:03:48 <flo> (cleaning up the way we initialize and use libpurple)
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20:05:16 <flo> hmm, or maybe the screenshot is just "stolen" from somewhere else
20:06:58 * clokep_work we need a list of all commands that can be used, i.e. /away, etc.
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20:08:53 <Mic> flo: I collected some articles that are no longer used: https://wiki.instantbird.org/User:Mic/Unnecessary_pages
20:09:27 <Mic> Maybe someone with sufficient rights could remove them
20:18:13 <Mic> clokep_work: protocols bring their own commands, so you should have per-protocol lists maybe
20:18:55 <clokep_work> Mic: Err...context? We talking about command lines?
20:19:26 <Mic> You just talked about all commands that could be used
20:20:08 <clokep_work> My plan is to take the URI in, take the "protocol" part, convert it to the protocol (i.e. "aim" to "prpl-aim"), then parse the rest of the parameters and apply them to that account. Haven't full figured out a flow of the code yet.
20:20:14 <clokep_work> I did? I'm confused, sorry.
20:21:01 <Mic> I was referring to this: "22:06:59 * clokep_work we need a list of all commands that can be used, i.e. /away, etc."
20:22:11 <clokep_work> Ohhhh, forgot that I said that. Sorry, drifting thoughts...
20:22:42 <clokep_work> Yes, I agree. There needs to be a "Instantbird" list and "protocols" list, and some IRC commands aren't implemented yet...(like /clear...)
20:24:44 <Mic> I've never really had a look, but this link is on the Wiki: http://imfreedom.org/wiki/Main_Page
20:25:12 <Mic> Maybe it helps figuring out what "commands" the different protocols support
20:26:26 <clokep_work> Mic: That's the site I use. :)
20:27:05 <clokep_work> Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_Relay_Chat_commands and http://irchelp.org/ (old).
20:27:09 <Mic> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_Instant_Messenger#URI_scheme
20:27:45 <clokep_work> Mic: Yup, have those already. :) but what I was talking about before was what commands can /I/, the user, type into the Instantbird window and have something happen w/.
20:28:02 <clokep_work> flo: Edited all of them. Most had minor changes. Some I moved sentences around, etc.
20:28:39 <Mic> Its too late already as it seems
20:28:55 <clokep_work> Too late for what?
20:28:57 <Mic> I'm off
20:29:22 <Mic> Too late for anything that requires anything
20:29:37 <clokep_work> Oh, gotcha.
20:29:41 <clokep_work> Goodnight.
20:30:13 <flo> Mic: if you want the list of commands, just use lxr
20:30:24 <flo> on the libpurple function that registers a command
20:30:31 <Mic> I know
20:30:59 <Mic> The wiki article covered things that people can put into a URI
20:31:02 <flo> clokep_work: thank you! :)
20:31:55 <Mic> eg "aim:goim?screenname=notarealuser&message=This+is+my+message"
20:32:09 <clokep_work> Yup! :)
20:33:10 <Mic> (from Wikipedia;)
20:33:17 <Mic> ie quoting the unquotable :P
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21:03:41 <clokep_work> flo: I'll try to remember to post a few pictures of vertical tabs today, any particular way you want it?
21:05:15 <flo> no particular way. I was just thinking that a picture was worth a lot of words when trying to describe "not pretty yet"
21:06:18 <clokep_work> True. :( I also of course have no idea how it looks on Mac/Unix.
21:08:49 <flo> it's almost the same on linux and windows
21:09:01 <flo> on mac it's very different
21:09:38 <clokep_work> I know. I'll eventually add the theme for it, but no way to test it. :)
21:09:53 <clokep_work> Took me a while to figure out skins last night. :( Was crashing my Instantbird.
21:10:29 <clokep_work> Anyway I have to get going.
21:10:30 <clokep_work> 'night.
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21:10:37 <flo> good evening/night
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