#instantbird log on 06 17 2010

All times are UTC.

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00:53:45 <skeledrew> hi
00:55:39 <clokep> Hello.
00:56:50 <skeledrew> i'd like some more detailed info on InstantBird
00:57:05 <skeledrew> i'm interested in development
00:58:56 <clokep> I'm not really the person to ask about that, you'd want to talk to flo most likely. Although have you taken a look at http://instantbird.org and https://wiki.instantbird.org/Developer ?
00:59:30 <skeledrew> not the wiki
01:00:01 <clokep> There's other information on there as well, I just linked to the page I think you'd be most interested in.
01:01:01 <skeledrew> ok. thanks
01:01:22 <skeledrew> but at this time i'm more interested in addon dev
01:01:45 <clokep> Ah, did you take a look at https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Extension which is linked off the wiki?
01:02:15 <clokep> (And the link to the Mozilla Developer Center is the more important one in there really. It has a lot of tutorials for Firefox/Thunderbird, but they'll mostly apply to Instantbird as well.)
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01:04:48 <skeledrew> ok
01:05:56 <clokep> In particular there should be a Hello World type extension...which wouldn't actually work in Instantbird, but it gives you all the basics. (There really should be one for Instantbird...maybe I'll file a bug on that.)
01:07:00 <clokep> Have you used XUL before/written a Firefox/Thunderbird extension? What type of add-on were you looking to create?
01:09:50 <skeledrew> no to all
01:10:13 <skeledrew> actually i'm searching right now
01:10:41 <clokep> Not a problem, they're easy to write, especially if you choose to write it in JavaScript, as opposed to C++ (or other languages.)
01:10:42 <instantbot> c++ sucks
01:10:53 <clokep> It has its uses.
01:11:19 <skeledrew> always was interested in participating in OSS projects
01:11:52 <skeledrew> but most that i encountered either was too advanced or not interesting to me
01:12:39 <clokep> Understandable. A lot of them are difficult to find out ways to help in.
01:14:11 <skeledrew> i know some LISP, C and C++, mainly use C# and AutoIt3 (basic-like) scripting, and am also interested in learning Python, Java and JavaScript...
01:14:58 <skeledrew> still haven't got a major though as i said
01:15:04 <clokep> There's a lot of JavaScript in Instantbird, its the main (only?) language that interacts with all the gui.
01:15:47 <skeledrew> yes. i've done some readings on Firefox dev
01:15:55 <skeledrew> and XUL
01:16:20 <clokep> If you're familiar with HTML at all then XUL is a breeze.
01:16:32 <skeledrew> yep
01:16:44 <clokep> Just gotta come up with that idea then. :)
01:17:06 <skeledrew> but i'm more of a functionality person. not much for GUIs
01:18:33 <clokep> Me too. I kind of hate GUIs. But as I said before I don't know the Instantbird codebase that well, never written any extensions for it or anything.
01:19:18 <skeledrew> well Pidgin has always been my IM. but i've always wanted to dev some plugins for it, but i couldn't get my bearings. and some plugins' bugs were getting to me, so i've kinda jumped ship to Digsby
01:19:50 <skeledrew> but it's closed source and there're featutures in Pidgin i really miss
01:20:52 <clokep> I had always used Pidgin, but I had the GTK+ interface, it looks pretty terrible on Windows. Plus I like the XUL platform and how extensible it is so I started using Instantbird.  Well as long as you don't want to add ridiculous features it shouldn't be too bad to do stuff.
01:20:57 <skeledrew> then yesterday i found InstantBird while searching for a way to convert Pidgin's code to C# or something
01:21:28 <skeledrew> ridiculous such as?
01:21:57 <clokep> Ridiculous like the Thunderbird extension I'm writing to add a new account protocol into the back end of Thunderbird. ;)
01:22:22 <skeledrew> yep. i've always liked the XUL platform too
01:22:32 <skeledrew> oook...
01:22:50 <skeledrew> may i ask why?
01:22:56 <clokep> I have no idea how hard it would be to do something like that in Ib, but it isn't easy to do in Thunderbird.
01:23:13 <clokep> I want to be able to use Twitter via Thunderbird as a real account. I have parts of it working haha.
01:23:37 <skeledrew> ohh
01:24:05 <skeledrew> i prefer all of that in my IM
01:24:24 <skeledrew> Twitter, FaceBook, IRC, etc
01:24:29 <clokep> So you used microblog-purple or twtr-prpl
01:24:38 <clokep> (for Pidgin that is.)
01:24:58 <skeledrew> microblog i think
01:24:58 <clokep> Facebook, IRC, etc. is IM to me...Twitter is email to me. But might just be the way I use it.
01:25:29 <clokep> Yeah. i was thinking about (attemping) to compile that for Instantbird, but my computer is kind of old and takes...like 4 hours to compile Ib.
01:25:41 <clokep> So...I haven't gotten around to it.
01:26:35 <skeledrew> i don't really treat Twitter as a friend tweeting thing. i'm following mainly news, tech, etc sites. nice to have it popping at my fingertips
01:26:51 <clokep> Right.
01:26:54 <skeledrew> lol
01:27:02 <skeledrew> what's lb btw?
01:27:26 <clokep> I just got tired of typing "instantbird" so I shorted it to "Ib" I don't know if the dev's use a shortened name for it at all, I made it up.
01:28:01 <skeledrew> oh
01:28:01 <skeledrew> k
01:28:21 <skeledrew> was thinking of that, but was afraid i'd cause confusion...
01:28:35 <clokep> Yeah, sorry.
01:29:01 <skeledrew> s'okay
01:30:23 <skeledrew> just want to get my feet wet in making IB more like Pidgin. sooner i do, sooner i can start using it...
01:30:40 <clokep> Haha. What kind of stuff do you miss?
01:32:11 <skeledrew> instant commands for one. eg. /buzz, /lmgtfy ("let me google that for you" plugin), ...
01:32:36 <clokep> That shouldn't be too bad to write. Of course I'd have no idea where to start. :)
01:32:38 <skeledrew> my pounces
01:32:48 <skeledrew> k
01:33:36 <skeledrew> per buddy prefs
01:37:20 <clokep> Ah, right buddy pounces -- I believe that's on the wishlist? Yes: https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:extension_wish_list#General_.2F_Miscellaneous
01:37:49 <skeledrew> nice
01:38:58 <clokep> I'm sure some of the dev's would more then interested in helping you out, but I'm not sure if any are here right now...
01:40:58 <skeledrew> k
01:41:24 <skeledrew> i just want a bit of guidance to get started
01:41:50 <clokep> Uhh...whenever I start an extension I usually start with the silly Helloworld one to make sure I can load it into the program. :)
01:42:15 <skeledrew> k
01:42:27 <clokep> Sorry that wasn't much guidance.
01:42:36 <skeledrew> i usually take the opposite approach
01:42:49 <clokep> Well, do you use Instantbird or no? If you don't then its really easy since you odn't need a dev profile haha.
01:43:18 <skeledrew> i find a project i think's worthy of the time, and get started on it
01:43:31 <skeledrew> usually a complicated project...
01:43:34 <clokep> Oh I do that too, I mean I just base all my extension on that simple helloworld one.
01:43:42 <skeledrew> and learn as i go along
01:43:48 <clokep> Right.
01:43:53 <skeledrew> k
01:44:31 <skeledrew> what i learned of LISP i did by reading up on it and writing an interpreter
01:44:40 <clokep> That's intense.
01:44:48 <skeledrew> that was years ago...
01:44:57 <skeledrew> lol
01:45:09 <skeledrew> it was fun though
01:45:17 <clokep> Most of my programming is self-taught via projects. Taken a few programming courses in college, but those aren't geared toward anything of this sort haha.
01:46:26 <skeledrew> i'd trashed my system and was stuck running DOS from diskettes, and the only things i could use were Mario, Angelo and QBasic
01:46:47 <skeledrew> took me about 3 weeks night and day to get it working...
01:46:47 <clokep> Hahah.
01:47:05 <skeledrew> true
01:47:56 <skeledrew> nothing beats getting your hands dirty
01:48:05 <clokep> That's intense.
01:48:54 <skeledrew> yeah
01:49:17 <skeledrew> it was pretty hard going outside into the Sun after...
01:49:21 <skeledrew> :)
01:49:28 <clokep> Hahah. touche.
01:50:28 <skeledrew> been a while since i've had that experience again though
01:50:44 <clokep> I'd suggest just diving in. :)
01:51:03 <clokep> Some extensions I've made I've just taken other ones for Thunderbird and started withthose and edited the crap out of them.
01:51:04 <skeledrew> nowadays i get stuck at the beginning of projects
01:51:14 <clokep> Hard to find time to start.
01:51:20 <skeledrew> because i find something that does the job
01:51:28 <clokep> Right.
01:51:32 <skeledrew> k
01:51:51 <skeledrew> at least partially anyway
01:53:54 <clokep> I gotcha. Well...no time to start like the present. :)
01:54:55 <skeledrew> yup
01:55:04 <skeledrew> time to start reading
01:55:33 <clokep> I'll be here for a bit if you have general XUL/JS/extension questions.
01:55:42 <skeledrew> main issue i'm seeing so far is accessing the API
01:56:23 <clokep> https://wiki.instantbird.org/Instantbird:Notifications
01:56:29 <clokep> I htink is what you need to access.
01:56:50 <clokep> Although I think some of that might actually have very recently changed based on what flo checked in the hg repo today.
01:56:51 <skeledrew> ok
01:57:11 <skeledrew> but i have to learn JS first...
01:57:35 <clokep> Hahah, touche.
01:57:45 <skeledrew> at least, enough to get started
01:58:31 <clokep> Yes.
01:59:21 <skeledrew> so now i need a beginning project...
02:00:07 <skeledrew> something simple, not in IB and that i miss alot from Pidgin
02:02:01 <clokep> Hmm....personally I'd start iwth just doing a couple of simple overlays and making some boxes pop up, maybe making a new XUL window pop up haha.
02:04:50 <skeledrew> hmm
02:04:52 <skeledrew> k
02:05:05 <clokep> Maybe tymerkaev has an idea, he was on around this time last night.
02:05:16 <tymerkaev> ??
02:05:26 <tymerkaev> What's up?
02:05:27 <clokep> Good starting point to make an extension for someone who doesn't know JS.
02:06:58 <clokep> Sorry that wasn't much context. skeledrew is looking to learn some JS/XUL so he can add some features he misses from Pidgin to Instantbird.
02:07:51 <clokep> So he needs a "beginning project" as he put it. (a few lines ago, 9:59:23).
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02:17:29 <clokep> Guess he doesn't have ideas. :)
02:18:26 <skeledrew> lol
02:19:14 <clokep> It takes so long to download the mozilla-source. :(
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02:35:02 <clokep> skeledrew: Sorry about that.
02:35:07 <clokep> My computer kind of crashed.
02:35:19 <clokep> (As I was editing a screenshot for the bug I filed today of course...)
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05:49:55 <Mic> hi
06:00:33 <Mic> Maybe someone point skeledrew to https://hg.instantbird.org/addons/repos/ if he comes back and I miss him
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07:02:31 <Mic> skeledrew:  You might want to have a look at this: https://hg.instantbird.org/addons/repos/
07:02:52 <Mic> There are some example addons, made by flo iirc
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07:04:08 <Mic> I can supply the source of another IB addon as well if you'd like to see how to replace text in conversations for example (it is putting links to bugzilla if someone mentions a bug with number)
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07:25:38 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
07:26:27 <flo> hi :)
07:38:10 <skeledrew> thanks Mic
07:38:52 <skeledrew> currently setting up IB
07:39:20 <skeledrew> can't be bothered with Mibbit
07:43:13 <flo> skeledrew: Do you have a list of the features from Pidgin that you miss in Instantbird and that you would like to implement as add-ons? :)
07:43:58 <skeledrew> hi flo
07:44:13 <skeledrew> haven't made a definite list
07:44:15 <skeledrew> not yet anyway
07:44:41 <skeledrew> let me switch out of this web interface...
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07:48:17 <flo> by the way, /buzz probably works as in Pidgin
07:49:19 <skeledrew> flo: one of the things i'm thinking of right now is the session saver plugin. my system tends to crash alot, and it's nice to reboot my IM and find the tabs and some of the history intact
07:50:42 <flo> It's probably something we want to have by default at some point :)
07:51:07 <skeledrew> good
07:51:21 <flo> creating it as an add-on first is probably a good idea
07:52:03 <skeledrew> couldn't help but notice i'm hearing the same sounds i'm used to from Pidgin. nice :)
07:54:11 <skeledrew> funny. i'm not seeing the IRC room in my buddy list. is that in the making, or am i missing something?
07:54:31 <flo> it's not a buddy ;)
07:55:19 <flo> the buddy list needs a lot of work anyway.
07:55:38 <skeledrew> no. but it's nice to be able to see the rooms i'm in directly in the list. and probably if i'm connected to it or not...
07:55:42 <skeledrew> ok
07:56:32 <skeledrew> great work so far though. i'm about to add the rest of my accounts...
07:56:39 <skeledrew> ;)
07:57:04 <flo> at some point, this will be automatic (importing the list of accounts from an already installed client ;))
07:57:15 <skeledrew> wow
07:57:18 <skeledrew> cool
07:57:29 <skeledrew> hope i'll be able to assist...
07:57:43 <flo> it will require a lot of work though, because there are so many different clients
07:58:25 <skeledrew> it shouldn't be if it's implemented via addons
07:58:49 <skeledrew> the main issue i'm thinking of would be getting the encrypted passwords
07:59:05 <flo> and converting the logs
07:59:16 <skeledrew> that too
07:59:45 <flo> so many clients have log formats that destroy some information while logging :(
07:59:48 <skeledrew> right now i have to be thinking of creating a converter for my Digsby logs
07:59:58 <skeledrew> k
08:00:26 <flo> our current logs are the same as the plain text format of pidgin. And some information is lost with that format. We've got to change it for a future version :)
08:01:04 <skeledrew> i've been thinking. maybe plain text isn't the way to go
08:01:23 <skeledrew> i'm thinking more along the lines of XML
08:02:21 <skeledrew> i may be asking for trouble, but this could mean you could make a single global logfile for all accounts...
08:02:41 <skeledrew> (optionally of course)
08:03:18 <flo> https://wiki.instantbird.org/Brainstorm:logs
08:03:41 <flo> if we want to go with one big file, I think I'd prefer sqlite
08:05:56 <skeledrew> ahh
08:05:58 <skeledrew> i see
08:06:26 <skeledrew> but sqlite doesn't have much in the way of viewers
08:06:41 <flo> what do you mean?
08:06:45 <skeledrew> XML can be viewed in many ways
08:06:52 <skeledrew> as can HTML
08:07:39 <skeledrew> i'm kinda a fan of going through the logfile folder to copy content
08:07:58 <skeledrew> perhaps Pidgin has broken me bad
08:08:09 <flo> that's because you are used to having no better way to do that
08:08:18 <skeledrew> true
08:09:34 <skeledrew> so if the log files are to take another format than text, i suggest both a built in and independent viewer/importer/exporter...
08:09:54 <skeledrew> *plain text
08:10:06 <flo> why "independant"?
08:10:10 <flo> can you explain the use case?
08:11:11 <skeledrew> in case i'm not running IB at the time (my system's taxed for resources most of the times (it's pretty old))
08:11:36 <flo> why would that "independant" viewer take less resources than instantbird?
08:12:00 <skeledrew> because it'd only be used for viewing
08:12:20 <skeledrew> well, log manipulation
08:12:27 <flo> I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me.
08:12:47 <flo> it you start instantbird without connecting any account, then it's only used for viewing
08:12:51 <skeledrew> maybe it isn't such a good idea...
08:13:05 <flo> and it won't take more resources than an application doing the exact same thing
08:13:07 <skeledrew> but the addons still load
08:13:28 <flo> if you hate your add-ons, you can start with --safe-mode on the command line
08:13:45 <skeledrew> right now i have to use several modes with Firefox
08:14:10 <skeledrew> there's a profile with all my addons
08:14:18 <skeledrew> and there's one with none
08:15:00 <skeledrew> i'm using the PAD version btw
08:15:08 <skeledrew> *PAF
08:15:21 <flo> in Firefox it's usually the pages that you load that take resources. If you start with an empty page and just go look at your bookmarks, it's a "viewer" of the sqlite bookmark database ;)
08:15:55 <skeledrew> true
08:16:32 <skeledrew> it had been a serious pain recovering all my settings when i had to reinstall my OS
08:16:47 <flo> I don't know how it is for you, but currently Instantbird is not resource hungry for me (55MB with a dozen accounts connected, and 5 conversations)
08:16:54 <skeledrew> so now i try to only use portable apps
08:17:24 <skeledrew> that's another thing i'm loving about it
08:17:35 <skeledrew> the installed size is small
08:18:39 <skeledrew> i sandboxed an install of the most recent Pidgin release, it it came to over 70MB!
08:19:00 <skeledrew> Instantbird is only at little over 20MB
08:19:07 <flo> I was talking about the RAM used, not the installed size
08:19:24 <skeledrew> that's great news for my flash drive
08:19:28 <skeledrew> yes
08:19:31 <flo> I don't care much about the installed size (hard disk is cheap), but I watch the "download" size of the installer :).
08:19:35 <skeledrew> that too
08:20:14 <skeledrew> for some reason the RAM is pretty much the same as the installed size
08:20:16 <skeledrew> lol
08:20:27 <skeledrew> *RAM usage
08:21:00 <skeledrew> though right now i only have a single IRC account added...
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08:21:22 <iLobster> Greetings
08:21:22 <skeledrew> hmm
08:21:44 <skeledrew> how do i block system messages?
08:22:08 <skeledrew> hello iLobster
08:22:10 <flo> I don't think it's currently possible
08:22:16 <skeledrew> ok
08:22:31 <flo> except if the question is "how can I create an add-on to do it" of course ;)
08:22:43 <skeledrew> ahhh
08:22:48 <skeledrew> perfect
08:23:19 <skeledrew> i'm finding minor issues with the protocols though
08:23:41 <skeledrew> i notice they're currently ripped from Pidgin
08:23:57 <skeledrew> there are plans to "addonify" them right?
08:24:11 <flo> what does "addonify" mean here? :)
08:24:28 <skeledrew> lol
08:24:44 <skeledrew> make them into XPIs
08:24:57 <skeledrew> instead of native DLLs
08:25:17 <skeledrew> so they can be easily modified, etc
08:25:39 <flo> In 0.2 the protocols from libpurple are all linked statically into purple.dll
08:25:48 <flo> so that we have less dll files arround
08:25:50 <iLobster> Do we have addon or something like that for use with Snarl?
08:26:02 <skeledrew> oh
08:26:07 <flo> rewriting some of them in JavaScript would be nice (less crashes, easier to extend :))
08:26:14 <skeledrew> i see
08:26:19 <skeledrew> yep
08:26:24 <skeledrew> definitely
08:26:24 <flo> We don't have the resources to rewrite all of them though
08:26:36 <skeledrew> ok
08:26:40 <flo> so we'll probably focus on those that suck the most first
08:26:46 <skeledrew> lol
08:26:55 <skeledrew> i'll do what i can
08:27:13 <skeledrew> but i need some proper pointers first...
08:28:20 <flo> iLobster: Snarl looks like a Growl-like thing for windows.
08:28:34 <iLobster> flo: yes
08:28:57 <flo> are there Firefox add-ons for it that we could port?
08:29:20 <flo> skeledrew: the API for writing protocol plugins in JavaScript is not stable yet.
08:29:26 <flo> I'm actively working on it these days :).
08:29:27 <skeledrew> hold on. i'm not seeing a tray icon :(. and i almost closed the buddy list
08:29:39 <skeledrew> great
08:29:42 <flo> there's an add-on for that
08:29:57 <skeledrew> ah yes
08:30:00 <flo> a good implementation of a tray icon is wanted for Windows/Linux, but it's a lot of work to do right.
08:30:00 <skeledrew> found it
08:30:11 <skeledrew> ok
08:31:46 <flo> " Snarl is written using Visual Basic and based on the Melon framework - also written in Visual Basic 6 and by the same developer " wow.
08:32:11 <skeledrew> lol
08:33:46 <flo> iLobster: maybe you can just adapt https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/6079/
08:34:15 <skeledrew> hmm. can i change the log folder?
08:34:41 <skeledrew> make that the whole profile folder...
08:34:55 <flo> probably not the log folder
08:35:01 <flo> for the profile folder, well, just use the profile manager
08:35:06 <flo> or edit profiles.ini
08:35:10 <skeledrew> ok
08:35:18 <flo> or start with the path to the profile on the command line
08:35:18 <skeledrew> relative paths?
08:35:25 <skeledrew> ok
08:35:27 <flo> instantbird.exe -profile ./profile
08:35:36 <flo> with "./profile" the relative path
08:35:46 <skeledrew> thinking of making a PAF of IB
08:36:24 <skeledrew> good to have it as another great alternative on PortableApps...
08:38:37 <flo> iLobster: it's possible that the only thing to do is edit the install.rdf file
08:40:31 <iLobster> flo: oki, i'll try that, i've found this too http://tlhan-ghun.de/?q=node/56
08:49:28 <skeledrew> flo: whoops. just installed the tray addon. restart option disappears if you choose to check any unread messages after clicking it. have to restart manually now. i have a restart addon in Firefox though. maybe it's compatible...
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09:18:49 <skeledrew> there has to be some way to trap the buddy list window's close event and pass it to the minimize to tray routine...
09:19:59 <flo> or even to just let the buddy list really close itself without quitting the application
09:20:09 <flo> and reopen a new buddy list when clicking on the tray icon :)
09:20:41 <skeledrew> yeah. but just thinking of a temporary fix right m=now. this is getting annoying...
09:20:56 <skeledrew> *now
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09:28:14 <skeledrew> flo: hmm. tray addon has issues. not working right now. good thing i have PowerMenu. anyway, all my accounts re now in IB's hands :). except Twitter...
09:54:14 <Mic> haa, "09:54:33 - flo: it's not a buddy ;)" :P
09:54:19 <Mic> scnr
09:54:49 <Mic> skeledrew: get the tray addon from the website of the creator, it works
09:54:56 <Mic> the one on AIO is broken
09:55:03 <Mic> We might mail him to update it though
09:58:47 <iLobster> skeledrew: http://tn123.ath.cx/mintrayr/
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10:21:32 <skeledrew> Mic: iLobster: thanks
10:21:32 <skeledrew> where can i access chrome URLs and about:config, etc from?
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10:47:40 <clokep> Tray Icon would be nice, but it really needs to be added to toolkit, there's a bug for it at Mozilla and a lot of dups. :(
10:48:27 <clokep> skeledrew: Tools > Options > Advanced > "Config Editor..."
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13:53:55 <skeledrew> YES! my portablizer works like a charm. IB is now fully portable for me... :D
13:54:51 <clokep_work> XUL apps are always portable as far as I know, you just write a quick batch file to use a profile that's sitting next to the app and it should work fine. Doesn't use the registry or anything AFAIK.
13:56:34 <clokep_work> But regardless, that's good. :) Now you can use it w/o worrying about losing work.
13:58:16 <skeledrew> actually, i'm using a portablizer i created a few years back for this purpose. it offers more advanced features than even the PortableApps launcher, and i have yet more features to implement...
14:00:31 <skeledrew> hmm. gonna make me a nice splash screen right now
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14:40:26 <skeledrew> how can i get the time to show in the sent/received messages? and why am i seeing my passwords in plain text in about:config?
14:42:48 <clokep_work> Your password is stored in plaintext, just like Pidgin.
14:43:25 <clokep_work> I'm pretty sure time shows up for me in sent/received messages, but I'm not on Instantbird right now, so I can't check. :)
14:43:28 <skeledrew> my passwords are plain text in Pidgin?!?
14:43:29 <skeledrew> i had no idea!
14:43:46 <clokep_work> Yes, they're stored in logins.xml or something like that.
14:43:58 <clokep_work> Every IM program I know of that stores passwords does it in plaintext.
14:44:07 <flo> clokep_work: accounts.xml I think for Pidgin
14:44:10 <skeledrew> wow
14:44:20 <skeledrew> i gotta check this out
14:44:23 <flo> We will store them in the Mozilla Password Manager someday
14:44:36 <flo> so that people can put a "master password" to encrypt them
14:44:45 <skeledrew> good
14:45:03 <flo> but yeah, it's not a "regression" to store them in plain text, other IM clients do it too
14:45:09 <clokep_work> skeledrew: For Pidgin's reasoning if you're interested: http://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/PlainTextPasswords
14:45:16 <flo> some offuscate it a bit (I guess some do strange things with the registry on Windows...)
14:45:29 <skeledrew> oh. it's the default message style that doesn't show the time
14:45:48 <flo> skeledrew: it is shown in a tooltip when you hover a message
14:45:48 <skeledrew> k
14:46:03 <skeledrew> i see
14:46:03 <flo> do you have a specific use to have them taking space on your screen all the time?
14:46:13 <flo> (they are also added automatically if you copy&paste something)
14:46:23 <skeledrew> k
14:47:14 <skeledrew> i just feel more comfy with being able to see my time line, how long since i or someone's spoken, etc
14:47:39 <flo> I'm doing some experiments for that
14:48:06 <clokep_work> I agree, and it doesn't take up too much room in the conversation (except for GTalk...), I don't remember selecting a different theme though.
14:49:22 <skeledrew> well, i've switched from bubbles to simple style. that takes up MUCH less room overall
14:49:40 <skeledrew> and i have my time :)
14:49:59 <flo> I tried simple a few days ago
14:50:04 <flo> I can't remember how I could stand that
14:50:04 <clokep_work> Ah is the bubbles default? I must've switched too then. Looked to much like a Mac for me. ;)
14:50:14 <clokep_work> *too much
14:50:30 <skeledrew> lol
14:51:07 <skeledrew> i'd choose dark, but it doesn't seem to show the time either...
14:51:54 <flo> tooltips ;)
14:52:05 <skeledrew> lol
14:52:08 <skeledrew> kk
14:53:19 * flo reads the article about plain text passwords and pidgin
14:53:31 <skeledrew> i'll go with paper sheets for now
14:53:43 <flo> I love seeing "GAIM" in the list of applications where it's as easy as in Pidgin to get it :-D
14:53:55 <skeledrew> simple is a bit... archiac
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14:54:22 <flo> yeah, it's almost a copy of the Pidgin theme if I remember well
14:54:45 <skeledrew> lol
14:55:13 <skeledrew> but i've always preferred simplicity when it comes to eye candy
14:55:28 <skeledrew> what i always go for is functionality
14:55:42 <clokep_work> Oh great, my computer at home finally signed in.
14:55:44 <flo> bubbles is pretty simple visually, and very functional
14:56:18 <skeledrew> ... but looks somewhat... feminine
14:56:21 <flo> well, I must admit I'm using a modified version of it with my experiments for new ways to display the time
14:56:26 <clokep_work> Bubbles switches side for different people, right? I've always found that confusing.
14:56:40 <flo> clokep_work: only in the "alternate" variants
14:57:31 <clokep_work> flo: Very much NOT a fan of that. Besides that though I found that Bubble's "wastes" a lot of vertical space. I found it distracting.
14:58:05 <clokep_work> I would probably like if it showed the date/time/user and kept that up if multiple messages are sent quickly in a row (a la GTalk via gmail).
14:58:50 <flo> It's very tempting to make you try my modified version to get feedback on this point.
14:58:51 <skeledrew> yeah
14:59:11 <skeledrew> hmm
14:59:19 <flo> but I know there's a bug that makes the scrollbar blink and you will notice that bug first, and not really see the interesting part of the experiment
14:59:35 <flo> s/not really see/be distracted from/
15:00:30 <clokep_work> flo: Kind of on a related note: I was asking here the other day if Instantbird will compile on mozilla-central since I was interested in adding Aero-glass to various aspects of the interface, no one seemed to know and suggest I ask you.
15:01:09 <flo> a few weeks ago I made a patch to fix the compilation issues with mozilla-central
15:01:48 <flo> there are certainly newer issues that added to the pile though
15:02:08 <clokep_work> Alright. I checked out instantbird-trunk and mozilla-central last night, most of the patches were applied using some fuzz/line offsets, one or two failed though which I need to check out tonight.
15:02:15 <flo> maybe I should put in a branch of the hg repository the fixes for the build system to work with mozilla-central
15:02:23 <clokep_work> Well next week there'll be a whole new issue as XPCOM registration changes.
15:02:40 <skeledrew> what about tab complete functionality for chatrooms?
15:03:16 <flo> I wasn't talking about the patches that we apply to the code from mozilla, but the changes that the instantbird code needs to work with a newer mozilla ;)
15:03:16 <clokep_work> flo: More branches are always good. :)
15:03:32 <flo> clokep_work: yeah, it means less developer resources in each branch ;)
15:03:55 <flo> that's right (about the XPCOM registration).
15:04:04 <flo> there's also the preprocessor.pl removal
15:04:15 <clokep_work> flo: True, but if its something just to see "what-breaks" kind of, then I don't see anything wrong with it.
15:04:18 <skeledrew> and listing the users if there're several starting with that same string?
15:04:29 <clokep_work> And the new EM, which shouldn't really affect Instantbird so much as extensions.
15:07:40 <clokep_work> skeledrew: These all sound like great extension ideas. ;)
15:08:34 <skeledrew> yep
15:08:37 <flo> skeledrew: I use the "reply to nick" add-on: when I click on a bubble, the nickname is added at the start of the textbox
15:08:59 <flo> so replying to someone becomes: click on the message you are replying to, then time the reply
15:09:01 <skeledrew> oh
15:09:11 <skeledrew> nice
15:09:13 <flo> *type
15:12:10 <clokep_work> flo: Is "reply to nick" on addons.instantbird.org?
15:12:29 <flo> no
15:12:37 <flo> I need to get better at uploading my add-ons
15:13:01 <clokep_work> Or just make them part of the core if they're that awesome. ;)
15:13:02 <skeledrew> i've decided to scrap the start from scratch mentality and reverse/modify a few addons. but i want addons that really show how the API is used, in pure XUL/JS. i was pretty disappointed to find a binary app at minimize-tray's core
15:13:04 <flo> http://queze.net/goinfre/replytonick-1.0.xpi
15:13:43 <skeledrew> i'd prefer if the core stayed pure
15:13:46 <flo> clokep_work: yes and no.
15:14:01 <flo> sometimes I do something as an add-on because I think the feature can be useful, but not to most users
15:14:07 <clokep_work> skeledrew: MinTrayR is binary cause it interacts with the system, although it might be able to be replaced with jsctypes? So its kind of a bad example.
15:14:11 <flo> these add-ons won't end up in the core
15:14:29 <flo> however, some add-ons are experiments, and once we are satisfied, it can go in by default.
15:14:54 <flo> clokep_work: that would be an awesome use of ctypes, if it works :)
15:15:22 <skeledrew> i think only the basic backend, immediate dependencies and plugins should be binary. 
15:16:03 <skeledrew> everything else should be implemented as addons
15:16:35 <flo> skeledrew: "should" is the keyword here. We can't "reimplement the world" because we are unhappy with some design decisions.
15:16:36 <flo> Well, at least we can't to it all at once ;).
15:16:37 <skeledrew> that way you can deepen the level at which features can be added
15:17:06 <skeledrew> i understand that, just an idea
15:17:30 <flo> so the UI (which is not binary) should be an add-on?
15:17:39 <clokep_work> flo: Looking at the MinTrayR code quickly...it looks like it could be done using ctypes, and probably easier since JS can interface w/ Windows easier IMO.
15:18:25 <flo> wanna try? :)
15:18:27 <skeledrew> flo: why not?
15:18:34 <clokep_work> I should email him about that, I've emailed him some patches before. Although it'd be a total rewrite.
15:19:02 <flo> skeledrew: I think most users should not have to care about add-ons at all.
15:19:07 <skeledrew> only the basic widgets would be in the core
15:19:10 <clokep_work> flo: Maybe. I was thinking about adding URL handler support (aim: ymsgr: xmpp:), which seems relatively easy...
15:19:31 <flo> they are here so that people who care about specific features can express their freedom without forcing others to be bothered about a complicated UI
15:19:48 <skeledrew> of course default addons would be included in the default install
15:19:49 <clokep_work> I agree, it needs to "Just Work" (TM) out of the box.
15:20:11 <flo> skeledrew: how long have you used Pidgin?
15:20:17 <flo> it it's there by default, it's not an add-on :-P
15:20:51 <skeledrew> used it couple of years
15:21:03 <skeledrew> before that it was Miranda
15:21:04 <clokep_work> Have either of you used Songbird? I think they have a good middle ground. First run they "suggest" a bunch of addons to users, then those are downloaded and installed.
15:21:18 <skeledrew> nope
15:21:36 <flo> skeledrew: I asked that because it seems your vision of "add-on" was very similar to what a plugin is in Pidgin
15:21:42 <flo> that is, a piece of code that you can disable.
15:21:53 <clokep_work> skeledrew: Songbird is a XUL based media player, although they've made a lot of bad design decisions recently I think.
15:21:55 <skeledrew> pretty much
15:21:59 <flo> in Instantbird, an add-on can disable and replace nearly all parts of the UI/application.
15:22:07 <flo> that doesn't make the original part an add-on.
15:22:15 <flo> it's just clean, modular code
15:22:27 <clokep_work> And in Instantbird the prefs system is a lot more...in existence then in Pidgin. :)
15:23:52 <skeledrew> flo: but would it remain clean and light weight with all that optional code still in it?
15:24:13 <flo> "you can disable it" doesn't mean it's optional
15:24:33 <flo> it's basically that with JS/XUL, an add-on can replace basically any part of the UI.
15:24:43 <flo> and some of the XPCOM components too
15:27:08 <skeledrew> i see
15:30:39 <skeledrew> restarting...
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15:30:52 <clokep_work> flo: Tray support really isn't as important anymore though it seems though. You're not supposed to design with them in Win7 or OSX, so it leaves Linux and "legacy" OSes.
15:31:21 <clokep_work> Which I know a lot of people are on XP/Vista, but looking forward, not sure if people'll be using it that much longer.
15:31:37 <flo> probably for a couple of years still
15:31:53 <flo> and even on Mac OS X, it's important to be able to close the buddy list and reopen it without closing the application ;)
15:32:02 <clokep_work> I doubt https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325353 will be fixed in the next couple of years. :)
15:32:12 <clokep_work> Can't you close an app and reopen it without closing on Mac OS X?
15:32:16 <flo> unlikely
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15:32:24 <clokep_work> (Unless you specifically "Exit" the app I mean.)
15:32:34 <flo> that's the expected behavior
15:32:44 <flo> but if you close the buddy list, it closes instantbird, like on Windows
15:33:03 <flo> anyway, I've got to go
15:33:08 <flo> talk to you later :)
15:33:13 <clokep_work> Bye.
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15:34:13 <skeledrew> testing...
15:37:15 <skeledrew> weird. i moved a friend from one Facebook group to another, but it's back in the old group after restarting...
15:37:47 <clokep_work> That might be a Facebook XMPP bug.
15:37:56 <skeledrew> k
15:38:00 <clokep_work> But could also be an Instantbird bug.
15:38:06 <skeledrew> k
15:38:17 <clokep_work> Actually...I'm not sure Instantbird communicates its changes back to the server?
15:38:52 <skeledrew> it should
15:39:07 <skeledrew> esp when manually adding contacts
15:39:45 <clokep_work> I agree it should. I'm not sure if it supposed to be implemented or not. I.e. if its a bug or just not implemented yet.
15:40:56 <skeledrew> k
15:41:34 <clokep_work> Which extension are you doing a teardown of?
15:43:27 <skeledrew> haven't gotten any others into the box yet
15:43:52 <skeledrew> but i just d/led replytonick
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16:14:05 <skeledrew> testing...
16:30:37 <clokep_work> Is it working? :P
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16:32:35 <skeledrew> it's got some minor refresh issues, but it's ok
16:32:55 <clokep_work> What'd you implement?
16:33:06 <skeledrew> no no
16:33:25 <skeledrew> i was just checking out the styles
16:33:32 <clokep_work> Ohh, I see.
16:34:00 <skeledrew> now if i could just change the font size...
16:35:49 <clokep_work> I vaguely feel like you can in the options. But I'm not sure. :-d
16:36:57 <skeledrew> seems i'll have to increase my portablizer's process monitoring delay. IB actually restarts at least twice when there's a location change or addon install
16:37:13 <skeledrew> and it's exiting...
16:39:26 <clokep_work> I don't know. Never looked into that stuff.
16:40:24 <skeledrew> k
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18:12:34 <flo> skeledrew: there's a restart caused by the Mozilla add-on manager when creating a new profile, and when installing/enabling/removing/upadting an add-on
18:13:01 <flo> I don't think the XMPP API provided by the facebook servers allow changing anything at all to the list of friends.
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19:45:16 <Mic> hi
19:45:44 <Mic> There's been a lot of discussing today:) Nice, . 
19:46:10 <Mic> .. even though there were some parts where I wish I had been able to leave a comment ;)
19:46:36 <Mic> Like on "timestamps, bubbles and waste of space" :P
19:47:05 <Mic> skeledrew: how were you planning to add url handler support?
19:48:24 <clokep_work> Mic: I believe I said I was going to add URL handler support?
19:49:25 <clokep_work> Although its been a long day, so its possible I'm going crazy. :)
19:49:45 <Mic> Sorry, it's been you indeed
19:50:38 <clokep_work> Both Thunderbird and Firefox have code to handle registering themselves as default URL handlers in Windows/Linux/Mac.
19:50:56 <Mic> I was just looking on MXR to find that
19:50:59 <clokep_work> Which works by passing it via the command line, so it has to know how to do that.
19:51:07 <clokep_work> http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mail/components/shell/
19:51:14 <Mic> Nope, I don't think so?
19:51:16 <clokep_work> http://mxr.mozilla.org/comm-central/source/mail/components/nsMailDefaultHandler.js
19:51:31 <clokep_work> Both parts would be helpful, if not necessary.
19:51:35 <Mic> Afaik you need some DDE/OLE stuff to handle urls when the application is already running
19:51:51 <clokep_work> DDE/OLE? Not familiar with that.
19:51:53 <Mic> So it's not just the command line thing
19:52:00 <Mic> I can be wrong ofcourse
19:52:11 <clokep_work> Well the command line is just part of it.
19:52:17 <Mic> indeed
19:52:39 <clokep_work> The second link I gave you is the URL handler.
19:52:52 <clokep_work> What is DDE/OLE?
19:53:49 <clokep_work> And unfortunately this kind of thing would be nice to have the protocols declare themselves, as opposed to one large lump sum of them. I'd have to look into that.
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19:56:11 <Mic> ah, wait, maybe it's really commandline-only
19:57:47 <Mic> Could it be that you have to add the parameter "-remote" as argument to pass the parameter to an already running instance?
19:58:18 <Mic> *the other parameters
19:58:22 <clokep_work> I'm not sure. I didn't go through the code line by line yet. Just found the necessary files and looked at the overall structure.
19:59:04 <flo> Mic: you don't need to care about all that OLE/DDE stuff, Mozilla handles that automatically
19:59:34 <flo> when a second process is started, it magically "joins" the first one, and calls the command line handlers on the first one
19:59:52 <flo> that the reason why you need to add --no-remote to the command line if you want to open another profile
19:59:59 <clokep_work> Mozilla makes everything so easy. :) Haha.
20:00:06 <Mic> Except for being started with "no-remote"
20:00:10 <Mic> *when being
20:00:44 <Mic> ah, you beat be by a few seconds ;)
20:00:50 <clokep_work> flo: Do you know where in the libpurple code URL handlers are defined? Trying to find it on Instantbird lxr...
20:01:00 <flo> if you started it with --no-remote, you explicitly started that you don't want that feature
20:01:30 <flo> clokep_work: they may be in pidgin
20:02:24 <clokep_work> And from my understanding of --no-remote there's always a default session. So if you start with --no-remote and try to pass a command to the vanilla exe, it'd just boot into the default profile. So its really all taken care of for you.
20:02:29 <flo> oh, it's a python script that uses DBus to communicate with libpurple
20:02:57 * clokep_work Feels like I was looking at it earlier today...
20:03:23 <flo> clokep_work: don't care about --no-remote. If the user ask the feature to not work, there's no problem in having it not working ;)
20:03:46 <flo> but yes, it will start the default profile if it's not already in use
20:03:46 <Mic> We might have a small problem with fonts on the preferences
20:04:28 <Mic> It seems to me that some fonts are not available in some sizes, even though these fontsizes are selectable from the list
20:05:11 <Mic> It's irritating when you change the size and nothing happens, is there a way to fix this?
20:05:23 <flo> use the zoom?
20:05:29 <flo> select at font that is scalable?
20:05:34 <Mic> My first guess would be that it's not easy
20:06:27 <Mic> Can we put this into the tooltips? :P
20:06:59 * skeledrew_home is now known as skeledrew_away
20:07:50 <flo> Mic: I suggest adding a tooltip to the tooltip, stating "warning: the content of this tooltip may or may not be accurate."
20:07:55 <flo> scnr :-P
20:08:16 <Mic> Didn't we have a bug on url protocol handlers?
20:08:31 <clokep_work> I didn't notice one, but I suck at searching Bugzilla. :)
20:09:15 <Mic> There was a nice video posted recently on planet.mozilla.org about using Bugzilla quicksearch efficiently
20:09:23 <Mic> *how to
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20:10:57 <Mic> No, there's none .. maybe it was mentioned on the wiki somewhere
20:11:12 <clokep_work> Possibly. Want me to create one and assign it to myself? :P
20:12:48 <clokep_work> flo: An example of libpurple defining a uri handler: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/protocols/yahoo/libyahoo.c#95 Is there anyway we could tap into that? Maybe only identify the protocol ourself then pass it to libpurple.
20:13:11 <clokep_work> Not sure how your xpcompurple voodoo magic works.
20:13:46 <Mic> Doesn't look accessible from javascript to me
20:14:08 <flo> I'm not sure how this works
20:14:11 * flo looks
20:15:26 <flo> apparently there's a purple_got_protocol_handler_uri function
20:17:06 <flo> I don't understand how all this selects an account to do the action
20:18:04 <clokep_work> Maybe pidgin preprocesses it.
20:18:16 <clokep_work> Searching lxr that function isn't /called/ anywhere.
20:18:29 <clokep_work> From any other part of libpurple at least.
20:19:36 <flo> Pidgin seems to call it only on Windows, from http://lxr.instantbird.org/pidgin2.6.3/source/pidgin/win32/gtkwin32dep.c#254
20:19:39 <clokep_work> I'm thinking this line: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/util.c#3578 does most of the work there to define the protocol (called "proto" in that function).
20:21:32 <flo> clokep_work: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/purple/libpurple/protocols/oscar/oscar.c#7106
20:21:38 <flo> ok, it's the first connected account of the protocol
20:21:48 <flo> I guess that makes sense
20:21:58 <clokep_work> Right. Yeah you have to make some assumption about that.
20:22:28 <clokep_work> Most of these URI schemes weren't designed for multiple accounts on the same computer. :)
20:24:04 <Mic> How would you design it though? ;)
20:24:44 <clokep_work> Depends whether we were to use the libpurple stuff or just define all the URI handlers our self.
20:25:28 <Mic> I meant how should the scheme be able to help to chose the account .. ? ;)
20:25:37 <clokep_work> Ohhh.
20:25:52 <clokep_work> Some of them actually have scheme:from=some_id&to=some_id
20:26:04 <Mic> looks like AIM ;)
20:26:07 <clokep_work> Which would work well enough, but not all of them have that.
20:26:19 <Mic> How should the website know your id?
20:26:19 <clokep_work> I think AIM does, and maybe like xmpp?
20:26:27 <clokep_work> But I doubt Yahoo does. :P
20:26:49 <clokep_work> Yeah, I have no idea who thought of these things. :P
20:27:35 <clokep_work> I mean you could always have a pref for accounts that are a "default account handler for this account type" and then you could preparse the command line and if the from= is not there already you append it with the default accounts id.
20:27:45 <Mic> It could be useful for social networks and other places where you can setup an account and maybe get links to oter buddies and soafter login
20:28:00 <Mic> So you actually enter and id yourself
20:28:05 <clokep_work> True.
20:28:07 <Mic> *an
20:28:34 <clokep_work> Well if Facebook didn't suck so much they could do it well -- it has my AIM account...so when I go to my friends profile and it shows their AIM name, it could link it and use my AIM as the "from".
20:32:13 <flo> I think a default selection should be made automatically (the first connected account in the order of the list of the account manager sounds good for a default), but the user should have a way to change this before anything is sent to the network
20:34:08 <Mic> A modal popup window?
20:34:28 <Mic> scnr
20:35:05 <flo> with a tooltip! :-P
20:35:23 <clokep_work> flo: You mean change the order each account connects? Wouldn't that be very difficult unless you make them run in serial instead of parallel.
20:35:43 <clokep_work> Oh wait, no I read that wrong.
20:35:47 <Mic> In the account manager window
20:36:01 <clokep_work> Right. I read "first connected" as one idea. :)
20:38:42 <clokep_work> And the user already has a way to change it -- they can rearrange the order of accounts in the account manager.
20:41:44 <flo> yeah, but the user will probably have first in the list the account that is used most often.
20:42:17 <flo> when clicking on a random link on the web, I'd rather "give" the other person a screenname of mine that I don't really care about if it gets spammed
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20:44:23 <clokep_work> Right, well you still need to "send" the msssage (or I believe some of them have an "addfriend" option, in which case I'd suggest making a popup off the buddy list confirming the user wants to do this -- similar to the confirm a buddy request now)
20:44:40 <clokep_work> So you wouldn't be giving any information you don't want to.
20:44:49 <flo> yes
20:45:08 <flo> that confirmation before sending anything is needed, the user may not trust the application that caused the request
20:46:21 <Mic> flo: honestly I haven't bothered looking at the code but does the account manager set the selection on accounts with a connection error/crash?
20:46:25 <clokep_work> I know how the official AIM client used to do it, was that I'd click on a link "aim:to=flo&message=Hey! I'm clokep." Would open an IM window, paste that in and then give focus at the end of the textbox.
20:46:46 <clokep_work> Which I think is reasonable?
20:47:51 <Mic> What if the user already has something in the input box?
20:47:55 <flo> Mic: it should for an account that crashed
20:48:30 <clokep_work> Mic: I don't know, it would either delete it or append it, but regardless that doesn't have to do with the privacy aspect Iw as trying to get across.
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20:50:17 <Mic> A notification bar on the input box! ;) "It has been requested to send the following message: 'blablobsdfasdfasdf' [Yes] [No] [Never] ...[x]"
20:50:30 <Mic> (the shiny hammer that makes everything look like a nail;)
20:51:29 <clokep_work> I think that notification bar would take up my entire input box. :P
20:55:01 <clokep_work> Anyway, my work day is over. So I'll be going for a few hours. Thanks for the input.
20:55:19 <clokep_work> I'll see if I can come up with anything tonight.
20:55:39 <Mic> Have a nice day
20:56:08 <Mic> I'm off as well
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20:56:49 <Mic> Good night @Europe
20:56:58 <flo> good night :)
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23:21:10 <skeledrew> testing...
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