#instantbird log on 04 21 2010

All times are UTC.

00:00:35 <vicnet> good night!
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07:13:40 <Mic> hi
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11:18:58 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
11:21:59 <flo> hi :)
11:22:33 <flo> I guess someone should reply (in Russian preferably) to that: http://forum.ubuntu.ru/index.php?topic=91495.0 (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=fr&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.ubuntu.ru%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D91495.0)
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11:46:08 <Mic> flo: how's the 'canvas' visualization of events making progress?
11:46:24 <flo> no idea.
11:46:36 <flo> which is probably a sign that it's making no progress at all :-/
11:47:22 <Mic> I saw some code on the repository but that was a month ago ..
11:47:34 <flo> yeah, I just looked in the repository too
11:48:08 <Mic> Ah, I thought you've got something to do with the one at university
11:49:26 <flo> I help these students when they ask questions
11:49:38 <flo> if they don't do anything, there's no way I can help them...
11:50:01 <flo> my 3 students at the other university have "finished" their projects last week
11:50:19 <Mic> That were ..?
11:50:20 <flo> the theme editor add-on looks very promising
11:50:33 <Mic> The video preview and the other things from the wishlist?
11:50:49 <flo> the video preview add-on works, but I'm not satisfied by the UI
11:51:04 <flo> and the other add-ons I received don't work/are not usable
11:53:31 <Mic> What was their task?
11:53:57 <Mic> Sorry, I just don't recall which were the ones you named once
11:54:19 <flo> the student who worked on video links also did an attempt at a "boss protection" add-on
11:54:57 <flo> and the last student of the 3 worked on a "repeat to someone" add-on, to repeat a selected part of a conversation into another conversation
11:57:35 <Mic> ok, bye
11:58:03 <Mic> Meeting now :/
11:58:33 <flo> ok, "have a nice meeting" ;)
12:11:02 <tymerkaev> flo: What blockers for Instantbird 0.2rc now?
12:12:12 <flo> tymerkaev: the 2 "big things" we still need to do is to fix the upgrade system (so that we can update localized version to a newer version in the same language, and not the latest en-US version), and decide how we announce the release
12:12:23 <flo> this involves refreshing a bit the website
12:12:37 <flo> deciding what we post on the blog, how we present the new features
12:14:33 <flo> there's also about a dozen of things to fix in the code before we release, but I don't expect that to require much work
12:14:49 <tymerkaev> "Your Instant Messaging, simplified" xD
12:14:50 <tymerkaev> reminds me something
12:15:14 <tymerkaev> flo: what things?
12:15:35 <flo> mostly details
12:18:32 <tymerkaev> flo: 
12:18:46 <tymerkaev> List Rooms will be available in 0.3?
12:19:38 <flo> maybe/probably.
12:21:25 <tymerkaev> flo: You must write in your blog: "Instantbird is not ready for minimizing to tray on Windows. Please use MinTrayR instead".
13:12:05 <Mic> bah, mentioning it doesn't suffice
13:12:09 <Mic> Fixing this bug would. 
13:12:11 <Mic> :P
13:13:53 <flo> volunteers? :)
13:14:13 * flo looks forward to https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102699 being fixed
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15:42:56 <Amfi> I've been thinking about improving contacts handling in IB...
15:44:07 <Amfi> How about creating an online service at ib.com...
15:44:47 <Amfi> which would allow users to register, fill in their contacts info (gadu-gadu, aim, gtalk)...
15:45:17 <Amfi> and receive a kind of an alias, let's say amfi@instantbird.com
15:46:22 <Amfi> Giving it to some other user would allow her/him to grab all my protocols IDs using just two clicks
15:48:07 <Amfi> and on the side, would be a great marketing trigger: -"How can I contact you?" -"amfi@in..com" -"What's IB" -"ya don't know?!"
15:48:54 <Amfi> Of course, it would require solid security on the server as well as a bit higher resource demand and dependency
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16:07:15 <Mic> Maybe it's possible to save all your IDs (or at least the ones you like to share) in a vcard file (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCard#vCard_extensions )
16:08:32 <Mic> Importing and exporting contacts using vCard files could be a nice addon
16:20:52 <deOmega> Mic:  hi
16:21:45 <deOmega> damn, forgot my  question
16:22:55 <Mic> ;)
16:25:58 <Mic> Ask me later than, I'll be back at eight o'clock
16:26:11 <Mic> umm, that is in GMT+2 ;)
16:26:33 <Mic> (one and a half hour from now)
16:26:34 <deOmega> Mic: Ok, thank you
16:26:36 <Mic> bye
16:26:42 <deOmega> My brain has departed :(
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16:50:55 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> deOmega, that's better than me, I don't think I ever got it
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16:52:48 <deOmega> DetroitLibertyPenguin: lol
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18:40:58 <Mic> good evening
18:44:23 <Mic> some more brainstorming on completion:
18:45:33 <Mic> I'd like it if it were easily extendable
18:47:20 <Mic> An extension that tries making time designations unambiguous could be interesting
18:48:08 <Mic> if the user types something that looks like a time, it would suggest adding the users timezone (or maybe add UTC or something like that)
18:48:44 <Mic> cf the when-will-return problem with deOmega earlier today
18:48:56 <Mic> deOmega: you remembered your question btw?
18:50:38 <deOmega> Mic: ah.. yes.  :)   Just have to  figure the words to  form it now :)
18:51:13 <deOmega> anyone trying the minimize to taskbar for new messages as yet.. do you know the deal on that?
18:51:56 <deOmega> so that when my wife  is sitting at my computer and   my girlfriend sends me a new message.. if i do not already have  a message window opens.. it does not pop up  for her to read :)
18:52:26 <deOmega> :)... take that example in jest 
18:53:15 <Mic> You mean the window opens minimized?
18:53:20 <deOmega> yes
18:55:03 <deOmega> actually... i have had a couple situation early in teh mornings, where i would be  entering my password for some programs... and I would hit enter..... part of that password would  end up into the window of a new message that just popped up :(
18:55:39 <deOmega> So it has  me very careful to make sure  teh cursor is still in the right place before i hit enter
18:56:24 <Mic> Do new message windows really steal focus?
18:56:35 <deOmega> yes.. Absolutely
18:56:36 <Mic> That would be bad
18:57:06 <deOmega> thanks for  clarifying my question :)
18:57:55 <Mic> no worries
18:58:14 <deOmega> I am on windows 7
18:58:48 <deOmega> really happens with alerts.. such as  calendar alerts or  other alerts... they steal the  focus... but that is ok.. they are local
18:59:09 <deOmega> it  is indeed aproblem when it is  teh messenger, as them, my information is sent
18:59:18 <Mic> I don't have access to any Windows 7 computer but I'll ask tymerkaev when I see him online. I think he's got Windows 7. Maybe he can confirm that ..
18:59:35 <deOmega> OK, thank you
18:59:54 <deOmega> It was teh same on other windows platform too, if i am not mistaken
19:01:43 <Mic> I definitely can try that ;)
19:02:57 <deOmega> ok, what u would do  is... and i am sure you know...
19:03:22 <deOmega> do not have any   instantbird window uopened.. just have it running... and let someone send you a message
19:03:38 <deOmega> a new message
19:03:53 <deOmega> if it does not happen teh first time, try it a couple times
19:12:06 <Mic> The window opening focused didn't happen to me on Windows XP right now, I tried several times (with a different profile, so this IRC window shouldn't have been able to interfere).
19:14:29 <deOmega> I think  you would have to  be out of teh irc window too.. no?
19:14:42 <deOmega> usually happens when i have no IB window running
19:15:47 <Mic> I know, I'll try again later
19:16:03 <deOmega> ok, thank you
19:16:16 <Mic> What I did is starting Instantbird a second time, with no conversation windows opened on this one
19:16:41 <deOmega> ah
19:16:42 <Mic> *that one
19:16:50 <deOmega> right
19:17:09 <deOmega> That should have  done it
19:17:41 <deOmega> I think sometimes they open in teh background, but mon minimized to tray, and other times, they come to teh front
19:18:36 <deOmega> what i have been  doing is opening an empty chat with   someone  on my list, and minimize it.. to get past those.... when i do remember.
19:31:09 <Mic> Well, this just shouldn't happen
19:32:12 <Mic> You can file a bug report concerning this
19:32:22 <Mic> It's official then;)
19:33:15 <deOmega> Ok, will do
19:33:55 <deOmega> hopefully i have teh energy o make time for that today
19:36:42 <Mic> You know how it works already?
19:37:48 <deOmega> yes
19:38:04 <Mic> ok, fine :)
19:38:10 <deOmega> I will check back with you ifi have   questions for refreshing
19:38:15 <deOmega> thank u mic
19:45:00 <Mic> flo: is there an easy way chose UI elements depending on the available space?
19:45:42 <Mic> eg replacing an "icon with label" by an "icon only" if too little space is available?
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20:17:18 <flo> Mic: with a "flex" attribute on the label, and a crop="end" attribute, the label will fit in the available space, and won't be visible at all if there's not space for it
20:22:16 <flo> deOmega: I started working today on the "highlight" add-on we discussed yesterday. It may be too early to play with it this evening though: there's no preference UI at all, the only way to add a keyword is to use the advanced configuration editor
20:24:46 <Mic> the example was a pretty bad example as it allows such a workaround;)
20:25:55 <flo> Mic: I spent (my available time of) the last 3 days implementing in JavaScript an XPCOM component that produce logs exactly like the one currently produced by libpurple
20:26:27 <flo> the code is much shorter
20:26:47 <Mic> We get rid of libpurple logging soon? :)
20:27:16 <flo> and it will become easy to fix the bugs "disable the 'show logs' menuitem when there's no log" and "disable logging for conversations already opened when the logging feature has been disabled"
20:27:54 <flo> Mic: I hope so! :)
20:28:11 <flo> I've already reimplemented the IM and Chat logs, and the functions to list the existing logs.
20:28:51 <flo> the things that aren't reimplemented yet are the "system logs" (connections, disconnection, status changes, ...), and taking into account the preferences
20:28:55 <Mic> Maybe add a  "hasLogs" method while you're at it
20:29:24 <flo> we don't need it. the "getLogs" method is becoming lazy
20:29:35 <flo> when you call it it only looks for the directory
20:29:48 <Mic> ok
20:29:50 <flo> and it does the real work only when you actually use the enumerator
20:30:23 <flo> so doing getLogs().hasMoreElements() becomes perfectly acceptable :)
20:32:24 <Mic> :)
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20:33:30 <flo> currently doing that leaks...
20:34:11 <flo> actually, working on JS logging is a diversion. Last week I was trying to begin the work to make it possible to implement a protocol plugin fully in JS
20:34:38 <flo> and as the current logging system got in my way and it seemed easier to rewrite it rather than to work around the issues...
20:34:53 <flo> Let's just hope I won't reimplement everything in the next few weeks :-D
20:35:19 <Mic> I wish I had some more time
20:35:30 <Mic> I have some bugs that I wanted to fix
20:35:48 <Mic> and some extensions I wanted to try
20:35:54 <Mic> (to write)
20:36:11 <flo> I wish 0.2 could release by itself without having to work on it, and being able to concentrate fully on the interesting stuff of 0.3 (or 0.2.1, I don't know the name yet)
20:37:31 <Mic> It's really not creative, but I wanted to take the notifications and a browser and some templates for messages and do something like the facebook newsfeed for messaging events
20:38:40 <flo> would you do that in a "conversation" tab, or as a part of the buddy list window?
20:39:03 <Mic> I'd really like to do that in the content window ..
20:39:05 <Mic> "but"
20:39:10 <Mic> I just have not the time to
20:39:30 <flo> why/where in the content window?
20:44:19 <Mic> In a new tab
20:45:23 <Mic> Why .. hmm, the content window is usually wider while the buddy list is too narrow to display anything without running into problems? ;)
20:46:37 <Mic> That's not a particularly good reason, I know
20:48:13 <Mic> If you'd like to offer the possibility that others create new tabs with custom content, it should be easier to create new tabs without attached conversations
20:48:59 <flo> are you saying that the current tabbrowser implementation sucks because it depends on each tab containing a conversation? ;)
20:49:08 <Mic> I tried once to do that to display the content of the log viewer in separate tabs instead of a new window 
20:49:45 <Mic> I think my conclusion was that it can be done
20:49:51 <Mic> somehow.
20:50:39 <deOmega> flo: Awesome  on teh highlight.  That will be GREAT!
20:50:45 <flo> I think changes are needed to make that easy
20:51:37 <deOmega> NEW LOG?   Awesome too  :)))
20:52:27 <flo> "new" but with the exact same user-visible behavior ;)
20:53:29 <deOmega> So that new log won't have teh ability to search multiple dates for a keyword in one search?
20:53:39 <deOmega> as opposed to  searching  day by  day?
20:53:53 <Mic> It's about internal changes here
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20:55:22 <iLobster> Greetings
20:55:28 <Mic> hello
20:55:48 <flo> deOmega: we want to be able to search efficiently across all your messaging history, but it's a lot of work, and it's far out of the scope of what I've been working on these last few days
20:57:21 <deOmega> flo: Understand totally.  No race for that either.. was just seeking clarification on what was being worked on.
20:58:24 <flo> we want to do that really well, because it's important. But it's not the goal I'm trying to reach now. I'm working on making it possible to implement protocol plugins in JavaScript, and fixing all the issues that prevent it
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21:04:51 <Mic> flo: what part of the logger have you implemented?
21:05:18 <flo> logging in plain text of conversations, and listing the existing logs
21:05:18 <Mic> plain text? html as well?
21:05:39 <Mic> ah ok
21:05:42 <iLobster> flo: about that question about running Instantbird on forum.ubuntu.ru - i think it will be not bad if answer will be not in russian, because: it's easy to translate (and understand, really) from english to russian using google translator, also good *nix user is able to read and understand english text (long nights of reading mans and articles in english).
21:05:51 <flo> html would be trivial to do if we cared
21:07:18 <flo> iLobster: do you think someone who can't figure out how to start an already compiled version of Instantbird and doesn't see a difference between the archive of the source code, and the archive of a compiled build is really a "good *nix user"?
21:09:41 <iLobster> i agree that even a detailed step-by-step howto will not help in that case, but that will be something like one more string with word Instantbird in google search engine...
21:09:43 <flo> Mic: I think logging as html files is not a good idea.
21:10:48 <flo> iLobster: When I run file "instantbird" I see the window "Couldn't retrieve MIME type of the file."
21:11:03 <flo> (that's what he emailed me before posting on that forum)
21:11:52 <flo> I don't know how he gets that error message, I'm sure it's not the default behavior on ubuntu
21:13:45 <flo> he is not the first linux user who gets confused by that "instantbird" script to launch. We would need a way to be more user friendly with linux users, but I don't really know what we can do
21:14:20 <flo> I think his message suggests adding a readme file, it may be a good idea to do it, but in his case, that wouldn't help
21:14:35 <iLobster> flo: i was installing Instantbird on my ubuntu rig long time ago, and afair there were no problems with "MIME" for me... but that was long time ago and i do not have ubuntu rig near me now...
21:21:30 <Mic> More usuable on Linux means: adding a manual + an rtfm message? (scnr;) 
21:22:24 <flo> Mic: that may be "more linux friendly", but definitely not "more usable". :)
21:23:00 <iLobster> hmm, i just have read translated post - google translator translate from english into russian better than from russian to english =)
21:24:25 * Mic mumbles to himself: I must not troll, I must not troll, I must not ...
21:24:52 <iLobster> it's 03:30 of night for me already, good night
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21:25:46 <Mic> ha, a perfect case for the time replacement again ;)
21:30:57 <Mic> flo: I've only tried once setting the logger to html
21:31:33 <Mic> It worked and the only advantage I saw was that the little markup might be enough if you'd like to extract this bit of extra information
21:32:01 <Mic> I admit that a proper format would be better
21:32:47 <Mic> ;)
21:32:47 <flo> we need a loss-less format
21:33:52 <flo> Mic: working on timezone stuff is an excellent recipe to get an headache...
21:33:59 <flo> that's a bug I still have in the log viewer
21:34:04 <flo> I don't mind because it was already there
21:34:55 <flo> but the way the timestamps are displayed if you don't have the same time offset as when the log was created (because of daylight saving time) is not handled correctly, and it's hard to get it right
21:35:19 <flo> it's not even clear if the user expects us to get it right
21:36:00 <flo> if I had a conversation at 9pm, does it make sense to convert this time to the current time by adding an hour? I'm not sure
21:38:43 <Mic> I wouldn't think so
21:38:54 <Mic> *I don't think so
21:44:39 <flo> currently I don't convert the time, but it displays "GMT+2" next to each time listed, which is obviously wrong
21:45:32 <flo> hmm, oh no, it doesn't
21:45:39 <flo> well, I'm confused about it :-D
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21:47:32 <Mic> I don't think that's wrong
21:50:20 <flo> anyway, it's late
21:50:22 <flo> good night :)
21:50:55 <Mic> good night
21:53:25 <deOmega> working on teh bug :)
21:53:30 <deOmega> err.. filing it
22:03:38 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 406 filed by jahkae@gmail.com.
22:03:40 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, New Conversation takes focus from current task
22:03:52 <deOmega> that was fast
22:05:05 <Mic> :)
22:05:14 <Mic> I'm off now as well
22:05:28 <deOmega> Mic: night
22:05:36 <Mic> have a nice day
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