#instantbird log on 03 01 2010

All times are UTC.

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07:50:51 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 354 filed by amfidiusz@fwl.pl.
07:50:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=354 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, English strings are being forced?
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08:16:29 <Amfi> Hi everyone :)
08:16:49 <flo> Amfi: hi :)
08:17:22 <flo> looking at https://hg.instantbird.org/l10n/pl/repos/diff/fe1f3904d807/purple/purple.properties makes me wonder... does Polish has 3 plural forms for libpurple/gettext, and only 2 for Mozilla?
08:18:35 <Amfi> Ha! I was looking for this file right now.
08:19:06 <flo> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#List_of_Plural_Rules
08:19:17 <Amfi> We can have up to 7 different forms depending on the context ;)
08:19:45 <flo> Plural rule #9 (3 forms): Families: Slavic (Polish)
08:19:52 <flo> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#Polish
08:20:09 <flo> apparently Mozilla expects 3 plural forms for Polish strings
08:20:27 <Amfi> Hmm... I can think about 5 different form for the word 'seconds' right now..
08:20:39 <Amfi> OK, I will try to understand why
08:21:40 <flo> Plural is so complicated :(
08:25:37 <flo> Amfi: if you provide a number of plural forms that it different from what mozilla expects for your locale, the translated string will be ignored, and there will be an automatic fallback to the original english string.
08:26:00 <Amfi> http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/e1082cbfcb4c/instantbird/locales/en-US/chrome/instantbird/accounts.properties <-- Where does this file takes values for seconds and minutes (%S) in the string account.connectedFor from?
08:26:29 <Amfi> flo: That doesn't sound optimistic...
08:28:30 <flo> from http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/locales/en-US/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties
08:29:23 <flo> http://hg.mozilla.org/l10n-central/pl/file/09db78c91a79/toolkit/chrome/mozapps/downloads/downloads.properties
08:29:37 <Amfi> Great :/ I guess I'm gonna leave it to Wareczek... He is better in those kind of puzzles.
08:29:57 <flo> the time unit you need to translate are used by libpurple. They are for example visible in tooltips of the buddy list.
08:32:35 <Amfi> The problem is that in Polish we use different forms for eg. 'Reconnect in 1 second' and '1 second left to reconnect'. Using either of the forms in the download.properties will cause a grammar error in one of the statements.
08:33:41 <Amfi> So i believe we need to rewrite all the strings so that we can hold with one form only.
08:35:27 <flo> Ouch
08:35:47 <Amfi> But if we unify a second, then we will need three different forms for the verb 'left' in that case. Damn, i hate it! :)
08:36:03 <flo> In the french locale plurals are not so complicated. But we are annoyed by genders
08:36:23 <Amfi> I'm gonna talk to the guys and we will come up with sth
08:36:43 <flo> "<username> has signed on." is not the same if <username> refers to a male or female person... :(
08:37:54 <Amfi> True, we've got the same. All the programs in PL treats username as a male noun and i guess everybody got used to it now ;)
08:38:42 <flo> for usernames we really now, it would be nice to provide a "gender hint" so that the wording could be adapted
08:38:53 <flo> *know
08:39:16 <Amfi> That would be awesome. 
08:39:41 <flo> it would be difficult. And there will always be cases in which we just don't know...
08:39:54 <flo> (when it's the first time we talk to someone, when it's a bot, ...)
08:41:16 <flo> for now in the french locale we try to workaround the issue when possible by using wordings that are OK for both gender
08:42:42 <Amfi> Sometimes it's impossible, like in '<u> has just logged in'...
08:47:29 <flo> in french "has just logged in" needs a change depending on the gender, but not "<u> is now online." (the word used for "online" doesn't change depending on the gender)
08:58:32 <Amfi> Btw, in the message unableToReadFromSocket (http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/file/e1082cbfcb4c/purple/locales/en-US/gg.properties) - what does 'socket' refer to?
08:59:05 <flo> probably a network socket (technical term)
08:59:13 <flo> basically, its a network error
09:01:38 <Amfi> OK, got it: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniazdo_%28telekomunikacja%29
09:02:19 <Amfi> Should we stick with such technical terms or should we rather make it more user-friendly (eg. unable to connect network)?
09:03:03 <flo> you are welcome to switch to more userfriendly terms if you are sure of where/when this is used
09:03:11 <flo> in this case, it's not really obvious
09:04:02 <Amfi> OK, so far we will leave everything as in original and later on we will think about better counterparts.
09:04:54 <flo> (in this case, it's an error message that would appear in the account manager when there's an error on an account)
09:05:17 <flo> from a quick glance at the code, I can't say if it's an error while attempting to connect, or an error that causes the disconnection of an already connected account.
09:06:50 <Amfi> I get it whenever I want to connect to the account: https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=348 ;)
09:06:55 <instantbot> Amfi: Bug 348 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Reconnect not working with gadu-gadu
09:07:45 <flo> is this problem easy to reproduce?
09:08:34 <Amfi> I guess so, in fact I am unable to use IB now.
09:08:58 <Amfi> I will create a gadu-gadu account for you and you may try it yourself
09:10:12 <flo> thanks :)
09:14:09 <Amfi> oh right, now I am totally lost
09:14:34 <Amfi> IB works with the new account properly but does not like my existing old account...
09:19:48 <Amfi> And the old account is working now as well... Miracles?
09:19:57 <flo> libpurple magic?
09:20:35 <flo> wow, someone reported a crash today using Instantbird 0.1.2 on Mac OS X 10.6.2
09:20:39 <instantbot> amfidiusz@fwl.pl set the Resolution field on bug 348 to INVALID.
09:20:41 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=348 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, Reconnect not working with gadu-gadu
09:21:45 <flo> Amfi: well, even though your account now works, the JavaScript error you had is troubling. A connection error is something that can happen (if there's a temporary issue on the server), but the JS error is a bug in Instantbird.
09:22:35 <Amfi> I had the problem for several days while still being able to use an account on other IMs.
09:22:51 <instantbot> amfidiusz@fwl.pl set the Resolution field on bug 354 to INVALID.
09:22:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=354 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO INVALID, English strings are being forced?
09:26:29 <Amfi> All my bugs are fixed in the latest nightly. Is it possible that the gg protocol has been updated?
09:26:53 <flo> the last libpurple update was 10 days ago
09:27:03 <flo> https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/9f87c7d641ba
09:28:01 <Amfi> Great! :) I was testing it two days ago and cound't connect to the socket ;)
09:28:03 <flo> but the only real change in the gg plugin seems to be related to the display of avatars
09:29:40 <Amfi> The problem with 4-digit numbers seems not to exist anymore, too...
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10:04:57 <flo> http://queze.net/goinfre/remove-toto.png comments?
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10:18:45 <Mic> hi
10:22:05 <Mic> flo: on the privacy pane of the preferences: are "Keep records of my conversations" and "Record connections, ...."  exactly what they say or ..
10:22:49 <Mic> .. does one imply the other? (eg (dis-)connection aren't logged when no logs for conversations are created?)
10:23:01 <flo> the 2 are separate preferences
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10:53:35 <Mic> The remove-buddy dialog is a default dialog?
10:54:09 <Mic> Ie on Windows it will look like a Windows dialog?
10:56:11 <flo> Mic: yes
10:56:21 <flo> it's nearly the same as when deleting an account
10:56:40 <Mic> ok :)
10:56:56 <flo> except the wording of course
10:57:03 <Mic> The pidgin dialogs with its big icons, smilies and whatever look so out of place on windows
10:57:16 <flo> so GTK ;)
10:57:39 <Mic> therefore the big question mark caught my attention immediately
10:57:52 <Mic> :D
11:00:08 <flo> lunch time
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13:28:29 <iLobster> Greetings
13:28:45 <iLobster> about http://queze.net/goinfre/remove-toto.png - that "?" sign on blue round background. What about to make background red or use "!" sign? It will be looks more like warning than question...
13:43:03 <Chaz6> bah no flo
13:43:13 <Chaz6> "Get new message styles" button is broken on linux
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14:14:08 <tymerkaev> hi flo
14:14:12 <flo> hi
14:15:25 <tymerkaev> I have a problem
14:16:32 <tymerkaev> flo: When I started Instantbird, I have a window with an error.
14:16:34 <flo> I have so many problems that I can't talk to you about all of them.
14:18:04 <tymerkaev> flo: ok
14:18:32 <flo> seriously, it would be easier to help you if you provided the error message, instead of saying "an error" ;)
14:19:46 <tymerkaev> I sent you a message. You can read it when you have time. ;)
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14:28:26 <Chaz6> flo "Get new message styles" button is broken on linux
14:30:48 <flo> define "broken"
14:30:58 <flo> (and I not a bug database, by the way :))
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14:32:18 <Chaz6> When it is clicked, nothing happens
14:33:01 <flo> does clicking on links in conversations work?
14:33:19 <damienwal> hi
14:33:28 <flo> hi
14:35:22 <flo> tymerkaev: I've never seen that error yet.
14:35:34 <flo> is your memory full?
14:35:53 <tymerkaev> no
14:36:07 <tymerkaev> I just start my PC
14:36:30 <tymerkaev> ...and launch Instantbird
14:40:25 <flo> is it the only window that opens when you launch Instantbird?
14:41:22 <flo> what happens next if you click OK?
14:41:46 <tymerkaev> crash
14:42:07 <tymerkaev> Second launch is right.
14:42:15 <flo> have you sent a crash report?
14:43:02 <tymerkaev> crash without crash reporter
14:49:12 <flo> :(
15:08:00 <Chaz6> Sorry for the delay, to answer your question, links do not work either
15:09:47 <flo> do they not work at all, or do they just fail to open the browser, but once the browser is opened, they work?
15:11:04 <Amfi> tymerkaev: an error appears because you've got lacks in your translation. Go to C:\Users\xxxxxxx\AppData\Roaming\Instantbird\Profiles\ xxxxxxx.default\extensions and delete your language folder.
15:12:03 <flo> Amfi: no. The error was a glib abort because of an out of memory problem (probably something in libpurple requesting memory in a loop)
15:12:59 <Amfi> as you say so.. i haven't seen an error message ;)
15:13:03 <tymerkaev> Amfi: no
15:13:15 <tymerkaev> Amfi: What your OS?
15:13:50 <Chaz6> flo: they do not work at all, browser or no browser
15:14:01 <flo> Amfi: I thought about missing strings in a localisation too... before seeing the screenshot
15:14:08 <flo> ah, so that's a different bug
15:14:15 <Amfi> tymerkaev: I got XP, the path was from Vista I believe
15:14:28 <flo> (someone reported to me that on ubuntu instantbird fails to open Firefox, but the links work if Firefox is already there)
15:14:42 <flo> Chaz6: which distribution and browser are you using?
15:14:49 <Chaz6> I was thinking that in the preferences dialog, clicking "Get more message styles" could take you to the ib add-ons window instead of the website
15:15:11 <Chaz6> Well the desktop is KDE 4.4 
15:15:47 <flo> can you set manualy a browser for the http and https protocols from the Applications tab of the prefwindow ?
15:16:49 <Chaz6> Yes, if i manually set it, it opens okay
15:19:47 <flo> it's not so terrible then :)
15:20:45 <Chaz6> Hm i'll try to set it to xdg-open
15:21:41 <Chaz6> Yep that works :)
15:21:46 <flo> :)
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19:09:35 <deOmega> good day IB'ers
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19:52:45 <Mic> Good evening
19:54:16 <deOmega> good  evening Mic
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20:24:54 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 355 filed by leeraccount@yahoo.de.
20:24:55 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de added attachment 273 to bug 355.
20:24:56 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=355 tri, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Change "(no themes installed)"-list item
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21:11:36 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de added attachment 274 to bug 353.
21:11:37 <instantbot> leeraccount@yahoo.de requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 274 on bug 353.
21:11:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353 nor, --, ---, leeraccount, ASSI, Add link "Get more protocols..."
21:17:15 * Mic hopes for a review+ :)
21:24:07 * flo wonders if it means something to get a protocol
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21:33:02 <Mic> hmm?
21:35:17 <Mic> You don't like the phrasing?
21:36:09 <Mic> "protocol extensions" then?
21:36:11 <flo> you get a protocol plugin, not a protocol.
21:36:22 <flo> but even then... something is wrong
21:36:37 <flo> because "Google Talk" or "Facebook Chat", as implemented are not protocols
21:37:52 <Mic> I can find something more appropriate if you like
21:37:55 <flo> I think in a later version, we will stop talking about protocols, and maybe phrase it as "IM networks"
21:38:07 <Mic> I just wonder if John Doe cares or could even tell the difference? 
21:38:53 <flo> well, what I'd *really* like to do for a future version with this step of the wizard is:
21:39:30 <flo> keep only about 5 protocols by default. Which protocols are relevant to keep in the locale context would be decided by localization teams.
21:39:42 <flo> this would give space for bigger protocol icons, and a descriptive text for each of them
21:39:55 <flo> and put a "More..." or "Other..." listitem at the bottom of the list
21:40:28 <flo> selecting "Other..." and clicking next would go to a step that would fetch automatically a list of compatible protocol plugins from the addons website
21:41:03 <flo> selecting one of them and clicking next would install it, and continue with the process for this account. (and I would love to make this installation process restart-free)
21:46:00 <flo> Mic: I think John Doe has absolutely no idea of what the word "protocol" could mean in this context.
21:47:47 <Mic> Sorry, I don't feel like arguing now. What about "Check for other supported IM networks…"?
21:48:23 <Chaz6> Yeah that's a nice idea
21:48:56 <Chaz6> KDE has something similar in a few settings areas, e.g. window styles and themes ("Get more...")
21:49:04 <flo> Mic: before giving any positive or negative answer about the patch, I would like to try it.
21:49:32 <DGMurdockIII> 2(flo2): Miranda IM dose protocols as plugins
21:49:33 <Chaz6> I'll try it too
21:49:46 <flo> but I'm wondering how "Get more..." (without specifying more of what, because it's at the bottom of a list and so it's implied that it's "more of whatever is in that list") would look good
21:50:23 <Mic> Sounds good as well
21:51:03 <DGMurdockIII> why not use the firefox persona themeing engine
21:51:06 <Mic> Would work around using the "IM" abbreviation (with it it's just too long)
21:51:19 <Chaz6> I'm not completely happy with the way kde does it, it feels a little inconsistent
21:51:30 <Mic> *"with it being written out"
21:51:32 <flo> if the assertion "it's at the bottom of a list and so it's implied that it's "more of whatever is in that list"" is valid, I think it would be better.
21:51:38 <Chaz6> It's usually "Get New Themes..."
21:51:58 <Chaz6> Yes that i think makes sense
21:52:05 <Chaz6> It's more of what is currently being displayed
21:52:33 <DGMurdockIII> ii thnk you could build the protocol extension some how in to the addon system that allready theme like make a new tab for theme and stuff
21:53:01 <DGMurdockIII> and display it like they do the popuarly addon
21:53:12 <Chaz6> In kde, they're usually all tied into www.kde-look.org
21:53:36 <Chaz6> luckily it doesn't show the whole site, only the relevant information
21:53:43 <DGMurdockIII> 2(Chaz62): http://www.getpersonas.com/en-US/
21:54:02 <Chaz6> personas work in ff 3.6 and abbove iirc
21:54:08 <Chaz6> without having to install any extension
21:54:20 <DGMurdockIII> yeah
21:54:44 <DGMurdockIII> that why i suggested why not trying to use it for instantbird
21:55:01 <flo> DGMurdockIII: feel free to try :)
21:55:56 <DGMurdockIII> well how would i add a personas to instantbird
21:56:24 <flo> I don't know
21:56:39 <flo> but first, try to figure out which part of the UI should be themed by the persona
21:57:08 <flo> it seems to me that we have very little UI space that has the "toolbar color" which could be replaced by a persona image.
21:57:34 <flo> there's the status toolbar in the buddy list, the tabbar in conversation windows, and the status bar at the bottom of conversation and buddy list windows
21:57:40 <flo> all these spaces are very small
21:57:41 <Mic> Sounds perfectly fitting for a persona theme :P
21:57:55 <flo> so you can't have any persona with a big image showing something
21:58:18 <Chaz6> http://imgur.com/Cf92y
21:58:25 <Chaz6> it's a bit cluttered for my liking
22:01:02 <Chaz6> That settings dialog is terrible
22:01:19 <Chaz6> Even the two labels are not aligned
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22:02:25 <DGMurdockIII> http://hg.mozilla.org/labs/personas/personas
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22:06:31 <Mic> Chaz6: indeed
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22:16:25 <Mic> good night
22:16:33 <flo> good night :)
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22:27:36 <Chaz6> G'night
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