#instantbird log on 02 01 2010

All times are UTC.

00:17:06 <flo> good night
05:04:14 <instantbot> Just appeared in Pidgin News - default :
05:04:15 <instantbot> http://theflamingbanker.blogspot.com/2010/01/on-subject-of-bugs-or-help-wanted-and.html - John Bailey: On The Subject of Bugs, or Help Wanted and Needed!
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09:37:53 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
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10:07:39 <Mic> hi
10:08:05 <flo> hi :)
12:17:36 <flo> heh, someone just emailed me (for something completely unrelated) a screenshot of the latest nightly running snow leopard. This confirms that my change in https://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/a0f9e5524b06 worked :).
12:32:16 <Mic> nice :)
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14:05:17 <Mitch> flo: That changeset hardcoded the colour "cacaca". http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caca
14:05:47 <flo> Mitch: but you are not french, so it's fine ;)
14:06:22 <Mitch> flo: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caca#Noun
14:06:39 <Mitch> :D
14:06:48 <flo> in french, yes
14:07:37 <Mitch> Oh right. I've heard it used in English before, and English does borrow words from other languages.
14:08:17 * Mitch wonders if French ever borrows English words
14:08:25 <flo> they do
14:08:27 <flo> a lot
14:08:35 <Mitch> Cool. Example?
14:08:52 <flo> Cool. Light. Fun.
14:09:05 <Mitch> Heh.
14:09:06 <flo> clown. Cowboy.
14:20:08 <Mitch> Pidgin uses Monotone?! Fail.
14:20:21 <flo> s/uses Monotone// :-P
14:20:57 <Mitch> That retort is not fail. :P
14:22:13 <flo> why do you need pidgin's source code, by the way? :)
14:23:12 <Mitch> I don't. instantbot reported some blog post that mentioned it.
14:23:46 <Mitch> BTW, is there some multi-protocol chat library that isn't Pidgin?
14:24:16 <flo> Kopete may have one, but if there is, it relies a lot on QT
14:24:37 <flo> I'm almost sure Disby has one implemented in Python, but not open at all...
14:25:21 <flo> *Digsby
14:25:39 <Mitch> Doesn't libpurple rely on glib/gobject too?
14:25:52 <flo> yes
14:26:11 <flo> and to make things a lot nicer, they have a big gobjectification plan going on!
14:26:31 <Mitch> C proliferation. Not cool.
14:26:40 * flo has a JavaScript-ification plan :-P
14:27:23 <flo> C proliferation, and with *very poor* (or no) type-checking!
14:27:30 <Mitch> If there's a purple coffee, it'd make for a pun-filled name!
14:30:38 <flo> it would take quite a bit of time to re-implement most of the protocols in javascript though.
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14:33:02 <Gizmokid2005> hello flo :)
14:33:10 <flo> hi :)
14:33:24 <Gizmokid2005> figured this was a bit faster/easier than Email :)
14:33:43 <flo> sure :)
14:34:06 <Gizmokid2005> see my latest reply
14:34:07 <Gizmokid2005> ?
14:34:40 <flo> I think you got no ellipsis because you are taking parts of messages from the same author, so it just puts them on separate lines
14:34:49 <flo> which is probably near the expected behavior
14:35:21 <Gizmokid2005> Hmm, I suppose that makes perfect sense.
14:35:47 <flo> yeah, I guess you would not put ellipsis by hand in such a situation
14:36:32 <flo> there are some side-cases where the copy/paste doesn't work exactly like it should, but I can't imagine any real user needing that (except when trying to fool the system)
14:39:37 <Gizmokid2005> what's the expected procedure for invoking the ellipsis?
14:39:38 <flo> Gizmokid2005: Do you often need the timestamps?
14:39:41 <Gizmokid2005> during a copy/paste
14:39:46 <Gizmokid2005> flo: I use them all the time.
14:39:50 <Gizmokid2005> if they are off by default I enable them.
14:39:57 <flo> what do you do with them?
14:40:09 <Gizmokid2005> I usually just use them for reference.
14:40:36 <flo> so, they are only needed when copying/pasting, and you miss them only because you are afraid of not being able to refer to them??
14:40:41 <Gizmokid2005> but in any case my TS are always HH:MM:SS (12/24hr)
14:41:13 <flo> select to parts of the same message, and you will have an ellipsis.
14:41:14 <Gizmokid2005> While I'm not /really/ worried about (not) having them during C/P, having them all the time is a must, or at least an option.
14:41:39 <flo> select parts of messages from different users, and there will be ellipsis, and the usernames will be pasted even though they weren't in the selection
14:42:15 <flo> by the way, they are in tooltips, when hovering a message
14:42:18 <Gizmokid2005> ahh, I understand now flo :)
14:42:59 <Gizmokid2005> that's good. not a perfect solution, but better than the alternative of not having them altogether. And being that they aren't shown, but they ARE in a c/p, that takes care of an qualms I'd have had there.
14:44:40 <flo> we tried to remove the visual pollution caused by timestamps that are usually never read, but not lose the functionality for the rare cases where they are indeed useful
14:45:15 <flo> the issue with tooltip is discoverability. People don't seem to notice that they are there
14:47:10 <Gizmokid2005> yeah, typically I won't have my mouse inside my IM window as it tends to just get in the way, so I understand that. I might suggest making the hiding/displaying of timestamps an option, like it is with pidgin, and "F2" in Y!'s IM app.
14:47:55 <flo> we are considering adding them just after the username.
14:48:29 <Gizmokid2005> in that bubble layout?
14:48:31 <flo> but as there would be a single timestamp for all the grouped messages in the bubble, we would display only hours and minutes so has to display something that is relatively accurate for al the messages
14:48:48 <flo> *as
14:48:55 <flo> *all
14:48:56 <flo> :(
14:52:05 <Gizmokid2005> what about like this? http://gizmokid2005.com/images/adium_chat_window.png
14:52:10 <Gizmokid2005> that's how adium implemented it now
14:52:21 <Gizmokid2005> then it's not too inhibiting, but it's still there.
14:52:46 <Gizmokid2005> leave a bit of padding just before the timestamp so the text doesn't look to run into it, maybe even change the font a bit, or add a style for easy differentiation?
14:59:43 <flo> themes that exist for adium work in instantbird too
15:00:36 <Gizmokid2005> really?
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15:05:16 <flo> yeah
15:05:27 <flo> it's the same theme system + magic copy/paste
15:06:02 <flo> http://blog.instantbird.org/a11-instantbird-0-2-feature-preview-conversations-customization.html
15:06:32 <Gizmokid2005> Now THAT is nifty :)
15:06:50 <Gizmokid2005> There are some really neat themes that Adium has, but they all make the C/P even worse as they get "prettier"
15:06:59 <flo> In the first email, I gave you a link to where you can download the themes in the .xpi format ;)
15:07:14 <Gizmokid2005> Yep, I saw :)
15:07:28 <flo> but you can just click "get more themes" from the pref window to get there
15:07:58 <Gizmokid2005> I don't suppose that even being libpurple based that plugins from pidgin work do they/
15:08:00 <Gizmokid2005> *?
15:08:51 <flo> http://blog.instantbird.org/a9-instantbird-0-2-feature-preview-protocols-as-extensions.html
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15:10:52 <Gizmokid2005> that's just for protocols though right? what about actual plugins?
15:11:18 <flo> you mean things touching GTK? :-D
15:11:55 <flo> most of them would be much easier to implement using XUL/JavaScript, and crossplatform without having to rebuild
15:12:08 <Gizmokid2005> I never really thought about it, but some might actually. There are a few things that are pretty much a must have for me.
15:12:40 <flo> things that you would love to have in your IM client?
15:13:20 <Gizmokid2005> Yep.
15:14:25 <flo> don't hesitate to give ideas, or even to implement them ;)
15:15:02 <Gizmokid2005> I'm not a coder, sadly. Otherwise I may consider it.
15:15:24 <Gizmokid2005> Do you by chance have a copy of Pidgin available?
15:15:48 <flo> not really at hand
15:15:57 <flo> I'm on a macbook (but I have virtual machines)
15:16:03 <Gizmokid2005> ahh, no worries then.
15:16:11 <flo> I know pidgin relatively well though ;)
15:16:14 <Gizmokid2005> Ok.
15:16:41 <Gizmokid2005> I'll just list you the plugins I use that I find near must haves
15:18:29 <Gizmokid2005> Buddy State Notification, History, (IRC Helper/IRC More only if IB doesn't handle those fixes better itself), Markerline, MusicTracker (not quite must-have, but VERY nice), OTR, Psychic Mode, Release notification, WebPidginZ/Gaim (this is a major thing for me, I HATE that adium doesn't have webaccess like pidgin).
15:20:21 <flo> Isn't WebPidginZ a bit geeky?
15:20:59 <flo> What can you do with it if you don't have a way to open ports on your internet connection, and to have a DNS entry pointing to your IP?
15:21:14 <flo> that would be an awesome addon though :)
15:21:26 <flo> "Buddy State Notification" is on by default in Instantbird.
15:21:55 <flo> IRC help is a bunch of workaround to hide the brokenness of the default IRC plugin
15:22:15 <flo> Markerline is probably something that we can have in message themes.
15:22:41 <Gizmokid2005> WebPidginZ is awesome for me though, because I usually leave pidgin running at home, and once in a while it's nice to log in and have a chat, it's still a bit buggy, but I've already got DynDns and all the port forwarding setup because I do a lot more at home anyways :)
15:22:44 <Gizmokid2005> YAY!
15:22:44 <flo> An equivalent of MusicTracker will be part of the default application (not sure yet if it will be turned on by default or not)
15:22:47 <Gizmokid2005> I figured as much
15:22:50 <Gizmokid2005> Good.
15:23:01 <Gizmokid2005> and Awesome :) Disabled by default is ok, as long as it's there :)
15:23:02 <flo> "Release notification" we have much nicer.
15:23:07 <flo> automatic updates like in Firefox
15:23:10 <Gizmokid2005> that's also good news :)
15:23:15 <Gizmokid2005> I figured, judging by the prefs window and whatnot
15:23:23 <flo> downloading partial updates.
15:23:48 <flo> if you use nightlies, you will get a very small update nearly everyday (probably not in the next 3 days though as we have an issue on the server)
15:24:17 <Gizmokid2005> ahh, that's neat :) I like Adium's update mechanism too.
15:24:50 <flo> I'm not sure about OTR, as I don't know how we can make it "just work".
15:25:15 <flo> (how we can detect that it's available at both ends so that we can enable it)
15:26:05 <flo> "Psychic Mode" is a geek toy, not something useful. It doesn't work on most protocols where the typing notifications are only exchanged after both participants have said something.
15:33:28 <Gizmokid2005> OTR I'm not sure about, but that's a standalone plugin that has a whole set of its' own documentation
15:33:41 <Gizmokid2005> and Psychic mode works for me, at least on Adium and Pidgin before someone has even said anything.
15:34:05 <flo> on which protocols?
15:34:07 <Gizmokid2005> with (just about) every protocol I use (AIM, Yahoo, MSN, ICQ, XMPP (GTalk), Facebook, Xfire.
15:34:45 <flo> or is it after you have closed a conversation tab, and someone starts typing the message that would reopen it?
15:36:17 <Gizmokid2005> even if I havent had a conversation, at least I've noticed in pidgin that it will open a conversation window (or tab) and say "You have felt a disturbance in the force..." and the window will be open until I close it.
15:38:00 <flo> it probably also depends on the IM client at the other end
15:38:06 <Gizmokid2005> right
15:38:16 <Gizmokid2005> and whether or not the presence settings are set to notify the other user you are typing
15:38:21 <Gizmokid2005> so it's more than just one thing, but it does work :)
15:38:33 <Gizmokid2005> I have buddies that have that turned off that psychic mode obviously doesn't work with.
15:40:14 <flo> anyway, it's really not difficult to implement in Instantbird
15:42:32 <Gizmokid2005> I didn't think it would be
15:42:38 <Gizmokid2005> but those are the ones that /really/ matter to me that I use on a daily basis
15:43:16 <Gizmokid2005> one thing (and it may exist I didn't check) that should be there, is each conversation should have /some/ type of notification, whether it be an icon or otherwise that specifies what protocol you are using in that particular chat
15:43:51 <flo> hover the tab, there's a tooltip
15:44:13 <Gizmokid2005> Ok
15:44:17 <Gizmokid2005> lemme look
15:44:41 <Gizmokid2005> awesome, that's perfect.
15:44:55 <Gizmokid2005> Oh, one thing also, Adium pretty much fails at this, but pidgin has it's shortfall too
15:44:58 <flo> and it wastes very little space ;)
15:45:32 <Gizmokid2005> when a buddy has a status set (even if available) it should be somewhere under the username in the conversation window, like Pidgin shows it in the active window.
15:45:49 <Gizmokid2005> right under the username in the chat, and if it's too long, just hover and the tooltip shows it all
15:46:43 <flo> yeah, and it should also display which tune that buddy is listening too ;)
15:47:09 <Gizmokid2005> right, that is actually the status on most protocols
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16:35:02 <iLobster> Greetings
16:35:57 <flo> hi :)
16:44:53 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/a9685acdff26 - Florian Qu?ze - Simplify the markup used by the default message theme, and make it look exactly like the pretty printed copy/paste.
16:44:54 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/5711b73d25a5 - Florian Qu?ze - Do not take into account the time when regrouping system messages.
16:44:55 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/8ef93ea5334a - Florian Qu?ze - Fix static compilation on Mac of protocol plugins that have subdirectories (for instance: Gadu Gadu).
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17:39:44 * flo has an up to date facebook chat plugin in his debug build :)
17:40:30 <Gizmokid2005> very nice flo :)
17:40:49 <Gizmokid2005> I did find bugs in earlier versions of the FB chat plugin...and I hate the fact that it requires the json dll now as well for pidgin...
17:40:58 <flo> bah
17:41:11 <flo> it also required pcre !
17:41:15 <Gizmokid2005> pcre?
17:41:17 <flo> I linked all that statically
17:41:30 <flo> so that there's only one file to install
17:41:47 <Gizmokid2005> good :)
17:42:28 <flo> but actually... whatever
17:42:38 <flo> the user always has only one file to install: the .xpi
17:42:51 <Gizmokid2005> that's good :)
17:43:48 <flo> don't hesitate to stay here as long/often as you like, and take part in the discussion we have here ;)
17:43:51 <flo> I have to go
17:43:55 <flo> talk to you all later :)
17:44:12 <Gizmokid2005> I will probably idle permanently now :)
17:44:13 <Gizmokid2005> see ya flo
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18:12:31 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 326 filed by tymerkaev@gmail.com.
18:12:32 <instantbot> tymerkaev@gmail.com added attachment 263 to bug 326.
18:12:33 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=326 nor, --, 0.2, nobody, UNCO, ru-RU localization for Instantbird 0.2
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19:26:22 <vicnet> hi
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20:57:51 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> did we add a sweet new pop-up notification recently, or is this something that I didn't' see in XP nor my old DebianBox, and do now in windows 7?
21:04:15 <iLobster> pop-up notification?
21:26:13 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> near my taskbaar by the clock i get a popup with the instatbird logo when I get a new message, just like it shows when you get a new email via Outlok
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21:26:30 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> but only when the window is out of focus
21:28:11 <flo> there's only the logo in that popup?
21:28:59 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> no, the logo and the message, or the begining of the message if its long
21:30:23 <flo> maybe you turned on the preference "Notify of messages received in inactive windows"
21:47:41 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> possibly, well eitehr way, I like it!
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22:00:23 <Mic> good evening
22:02:25 <flo> good night (sorry)
22:03:58 <Mic> DetroitLibertyPenguin: does the notification popup for new messages show the envelopes-icon only?
22:04:19 <Mic> Even for buddies that you know have a user set icon/image?
22:04:54 <Mic> (we definitely need nick name completion btw;)
22:05:21 <iLobster> as far as i remeber envelope-icon was in notification add-on
22:05:29 <iLobster> *remember
22:05:39 <Mic> It should show the buddy picture if available afaik
22:06:09 <Mic> It doesn't for me in most cases and neither do they show on buddy tooltips. Other (ICQ) clients do show them.
22:06:36 <Mic> I guess I better file a bug
22:06:55 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> Mic: The icon that shows is the Nightly Build IB icon, with the bomb and the envelopes 
22:07:40 <iLobster> but envelope variant was pretty good... buddy pictures of some of my contacts are too big, that makes pop-up too big too =(
22:08:17 <Mic> iLobster: this is known and is a "wanted fixed for 0.2" bug iirc
22:08:34 <Mic> brb
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22:10:09 <Mic> iLobster: yes, "[wanted] See if we need to add max-width/height to buddy icons in XUL notification popups" is listed on the wiki
22:12:01 <iLobster> heh, at least i need it =)
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22:32:25 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 327 filed by leeraccount@yahoo.de.
22:32:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=327 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Buddy icons missing
22:33:27 <Mic> Now it's official ;)
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22:41:43 <Mic> good night
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22:59:21 <vicnet> good night
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22:59:32 <DGMurdockIII> later
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