#instantbird log on 12 29 2009

All times are UTC.

00:05:11 <Mic> flo: I guess you might get a "reverse sort order" option for free (on the tree)
00:05:44 <flo> is there a use case for having the oldest conversation first?
00:07:29 <Mic> No idea, maybe some people prefer it that way (cf order in inbox of email clients)
00:08:31 <Mic> I need to sort the nodes anyways .. I guess giving this possibility is a matter of two lines
00:08:42 <flo> they are already sorted
00:09:41 <Mic> Insert a node into "Today" and therefore also into "Last seven days" and "This month"
00:09:50 <Mic> The groups are appended as they are created
00:10:29 <flo> have you seen the rationale for not duplicating (in the middle of the discussion about instantbot's logs processing with Morian)?
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00:11:20 <Mic> I think you said you wanted to open everything by default
00:11:27 <flo> yes
00:11:40 <Mic> How is that related to the current issue?
00:11:41 <flo> so if you duplicate the rows, you will see them on screen several times
00:12:34 <Mic> You saw my points on what things will occure I you don't duplicate them?
00:14:01 <Mic> *if I 
00:14:24 <flo> I think so, though I can't promise I understood well.
00:14:56 <Mic> Well it's late .. 
00:15:04 <Mic> I'll explain tomorrow
00:15:07 <flo> the underlying problem is probably that we need to clarify the mental model around this tree
00:15:30 <flo> are we grouping some logs in several buckets, or proposing some search facility to display a selection of the entries?
00:15:37 <Mic> If you'd like to think about it: consider the last week overlapping with a new month
00:15:49 <flo> or are the "yesterday", ... indications only separators inside the list?
00:16:28 <Mic> For me it's grouping
00:16:34 <flo> Mic: ok, I see
00:18:07 <Mic> A tree doesn't exactly resemble a timeline for me 
00:19:25 <flo> the time is the only relevant data here.
00:19:55 <flo> so I think that somehow the action of scrolling should be associated with going back in time
00:21:54 <Mic> In this case I'd say we shouldn't use a tree to display it.
00:21:57 <Mic> Not in such a way
00:22:40 <Mic> The tree includes grouping (elements with subelements) for me
00:23:05 <Mic> Maybe we should have a plain list like yours
00:23:19 <Mic> With separators that can collapse parts of the list
00:23:44 <flo> which is usually implemented by a tree ;)
00:23:49 <Mic> Every element at the same level as the other
00:23:55 <Mic> not at different depth
00:23:58 <Mic> depths
00:24:05 <flo> that's a tree with only one level
00:25:17 <Mic> ..
00:25:24 <flo> if the details of a tree that annoys you are the "+" and "-" signs for collapsable parts, you can replace them with a more appropriate icon
00:25:55 <Mic> It's the indentation
00:26:59 <Mic> If I use "plain list" and "tree" here, it is in terms of displaying it, not a matters of implementation (that the user doesn't have to care for)
00:27:12 <flo> ok :)
00:28:13 <flo> maybe one of the rare cases where I jump on implementation details too soon ;)
00:31:23 <flo> so, the "separators" we could use would be: today, yesterday, monday (if we suppose for this example that "today" = wednesday), last week, and... hmm, and I see no appropriate wording for "the days of this month that were before last week" :(
00:32:20 <vicnet> "this month" ?
00:32:42 <vicnet> wait, no...
00:32:58 <flo> yes... but the user will think "how come today is not part of this month?"
00:33:22 <vicnet> exactly... I typed faster than I thought :p
00:33:53 <flo> calendars are too complicated :(
00:33:54 <Mic> we could add a note: Go and look at "Today, we haven't added this group for nothing!
00:34:17 <Mic> my typing sucks .. :S
00:35:41 <vicnet> what if the separators were more like "markers", marking the passage from "yesterday" to "today", etc... then the "this month" marker would mark the passage from "last month" to "this month"
00:36:14 <Mic> In this case, the markers would be where they have to be in the timeline
00:36:33 <Mic> that is below the actual content of the section
00:37:15 <flo> so we would put "now" instead of "today"?
00:37:17 <Mic> "Today" is "where today started" ?
00:37:27 <Mic> vicnet: is that what you meant?
00:37:36 <vicnet> yes
00:37:44 <Mic> hmm .. 
00:39:16 <flo> that would look so right if the timeline could be horizontal :-/
00:42:17 <Mic> Is there something from Sunbird that we could recycle ..?
00:43:09 <Mic> If we knew when a chat ended we could draw the time range on days like events on this screenshot http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/images/sunbird-week-view.png
00:43:48 <Mic> well, nevermind
00:44:36 <flo> I may have a research student/intern working on a timeline-based view of events in a few weeks or months
00:46:01 <flo> the idea would be basically to draw a timeline (probably with a canvas), and put on it all the events (conversations, status change, (dis)connections, ...) related to all buddies
00:46:08 <Mic> Here's your task: put logs on a sort of cover-flow like calender where you can easily scroll through days in a fancy way ;)
00:46:21 <flo> :)
00:47:11 <flo> cover-flow UIs are nice with a good touchpad or any touchable surfaces (iPhones, ...) but I'm not sure that's good with a mouse
00:49:03 <Mic> "Grab&Drag" extension a pen with graphics tablet are a very cool thing
00:49:16 <Mic> I'm using it quite often while browsing the web
00:49:37 <Mic> Forgive my typos and grammar mistakes
00:49:41 <Mic> It's just too late
00:49:44 <Mic> Good night
00:49:48 <flo> yeah, it's late for me too ;)
00:49:49 <flo> good night :)
00:49:51 <vicnet> good night
00:49:53 <Morian> night
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01:32:33 <vicnet> well, I'll leave too, good night
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10:14:23 <flo> hi :)
10:17:12 <instantbot> hi
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11:10:48 <Mic> hi
11:20:03 <Troy> hi
11:59:53 <Chaz6> hi
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13:13:48 <Mic> There was someone having a problem with updates .. does anyone remember any details of this?
13:14:23 <Morian> me
13:14:29 <Morian> and it is fixed
13:15:10 <Mic> ok :)
13:15:14 <Morian> the problem was a bad cache file for updates that told me that an update was applying
13:15:19 <Morian> but it wasn't applying
13:15:27 <Morian> deleting these cache file solved the problem
13:16:28 <Mic> I just experienced a problem where it said that it couldn't update
13:16:51 <Morian> it seems like a server was down tonight
13:17:11 <Mic> and asked to check if there's still a running instance of Instantbird (which proved to be true, seem to be hung somehow and only appeared in the task manager)
13:17:14 <Morian> the bot told me: Dude, I'm having a problem with FTP. Could you prod ftp.instantbird.org for me please? Or fix my config? Cheers.
13:31:39 <flo> what's the bot doing with ftp?
13:31:56 <Morian> he is checking whether there is a new file
13:32:12 <Morian> in nightlies
13:32:14 <Morian> I gues
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14:11:27 <flo> Mic: do you think it would be a good idea to add a badge with the number of unread email messages above protocol icons in the buddy list status bar?
14:12:20 <Mic> Like these facebook new event notification?
14:12:42 <flo> hmm
14:12:44 <Mic> If you're familiar with them ..
14:12:45 * flo looks at facebook
14:12:59 <Mic> You need to have new events (on the lower right corner)
14:13:07 <flo> well, yes
14:13:41 <flo> but I'm not sure of how we can/want to handle the case when there are several accounts of the same protocol with regard to these new mail notiifcations
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14:27:14 <Mic> Some hack:
14:27:15 <Mic> http://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Integrated_log_viewer.png
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14:35:12 <flo> a new extension project? :)
14:35:35 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> I'll extend your project
14:47:13 <Mic> Just some idea
14:47:54 <Mic> Some thoughts on it are in the comment to the file
14:51:46 <Mic> flo: concerning the new message-badge .. are you working on such a bar with accounts/protocols or was that just an idea
14:52:14 <flo> I thought you had already started some experiments on that topic
14:52:38 <flo> so I wanted to share the thought about integrating new mail notifications in the same UI area
14:53:08 <Mic> What about putting it in the buddy list instead?
14:53:09 <flo> (I was discussing new-mail notifications (or rather the pain caused by the lack of these notifications) with Eventreur in a private gtalk conversation)
14:53:18 <Mic> Such a badge next to buddies that have new messages wiating?
14:53:52 <flo> I think it's a good idea to associate the count of unread messages with the buddies who sent them
14:54:14 <flo> and it would probably even be useful to add a system message at the begining of new conversations with these buddies
14:54:34 <flo> so that we can see quickly the title of new unread emails from that person before replying or asking a silly question :)
14:54:54 <flo> but we need to handle the case of emails coming from unknown people, so we probably still need something more generic
14:55:25 <Mic> This is about _emails_?
14:55:46 <flo> yes
14:56:02 <Mic> First time I thought it was a mistake .. 
14:56:26 <Mic> How do you get the unread email status?
14:58:19 <flo> some protocols handle it (and libpurple handles it)
14:58:26 <flo> MSN and Google Talk for sure
14:58:28 <flo> maybe AIM too
15:06:35 <Mic> ok
15:06:41 <Troy> hi
15:08:29 <flo> I'm not sure we have the topics and senders for all the protocols, maybe only the total count for all protocols
15:09:50 <Troy> flo, you can do so in the Options window in Windows 7 as in Firefox (aero)?
15:11:11 <Troy> I mean icons in the options window.
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15:43:48 <Troy> flo
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17:29:11 <flo> hmm, the participants list of chatrooms seems to be the only part of the main UI where we still don't have a context menu providing useful actions
17:45:14 <vicnet> hello :)
17:45:26 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 294 filed by florian@instantbird.org.
17:45:28 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=294 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Handle the case where no logs are available
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18:28:55 <Mic> One more idea:
18:28:59 <Mic> http://wiki.instantbird.org/images/0/09/Single_piece_tabs.png
18:29:40 <Mic> A very minor change, but it makes the tab look more like a single piece in my opinion
18:31:37 <flo> it will probably look like that once we have an area with information about the buddy/topic for all conversations
18:35:24 <Mic> I've got a piece of code to select the account from which you write lying around btw .. it needs a minor c-code change to make the account field writable on conversations if I recall correctly
18:36:11 <flo> I think you recall correctly, except for the word "minor" which is probably left to determine :)
18:36:40 <Mic> hehe
18:36:52 <flo> may I see this code?
18:37:14 <Mic> Wait a minute
18:51:48 <Mic> Or maybe half an hour .. ;)
18:52:59 <Mic> It's a mess but here's parts of it ..
18:53:04 <Mic> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/693739
18:53:27 <Mic> It definitely contains code to experiment with creating a new conversation which failed afaik
18:54:26 <Mic> Consider it as a how-to sketch of the idea
18:58:22 * flo looks forward to 0.3
19:00:09 <Mic> The thing I posted doesn't contain the status message of the buddy and what else we discussed
19:01:14 <flo> and it's still in a work in progress state ;)
19:01:49 <flo> if I remember well, the thing I had to change in purplexpcom for this was to make the "account" attribute of conversations settable
19:01:57 <Mic> I think so
19:02:08 <flo> I'm not sure if that really makes senses for MUCs
19:02:33 <flo> would you like to have an easy way to join #instantbird on your freenode account from this conversation tab?
19:02:35 <flo> I don't think so
19:03:00 <flo> or maybe for IRC you should filter accounts that have the same server name after the @ in the account name
19:04:24 <Mic> What environment are you using when working on the xul/javascript parts?
19:04:47 <flo> what do you mean by environment exactly?
19:04:59 <Mic> A sort of IDE or such
19:05:01 <flo> I use Carbon Emacs on a macbook
19:05:46 <Mic> hmm
19:06:07 <flo> I recently wrote a shell script that rebuilds the instantbird/ folder and then starts my debug build automatically, wait until it is closed, and starts again
19:06:38 <flo> this way, when I want to test what I've just edited, I only have to close my debug instantbird and wait a few seconds for the "new" version to automatically open :)
19:07:12 <Mic> Maybe I should do something like that .. so far I'm working on an uncompressed copy of the code and have to transfer my changes to the hg folder later
19:07:30 <Mic> It's bad.
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19:07:58 <flo> especially for code that has ifdef's
19:09:28 <Mic> Notepad sometimes sucks :S
19:09:57 <Mic> Just kidding .. I'm using a proper editor ;)
19:10:05 <flo> :)
19:11:51 <Mic> gtg
19:11:54 <Mic> Have a nice evening
19:12:14 <flo> see you
19:12:17 <flo> (enjoy the films?)
19:13:00 <Mic> No, we're going to spend an evening in a nice cafe with live music and so on ..
19:13:16 <Mic> cu
19:13:16 <flo> :)
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19:25:33 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> Notepad++!
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19:33:30 <vicnet> oooh, pretty colors :)
19:34:08 <flo> :)
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20:57:14 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2b1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
20:57:14 * ChanServ sets mode +v instantbot 
20:57:32 <Morian> wb instantbot my love
20:57:44 <instantbot> ...
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