#instantbird log on 11 16 2009

All times are UTC.

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02:50:41 <Morian> ah, mozilla is upgrading bugzilla to version 3.4.3 :)
02:51:04 <Morian> there are a lot of cool changes!
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03:55:38 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
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04:04:41 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
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05:06:17 <DGMurdockIII> im still having truble with google talk
05:06:20 <DGMurdockIII> guys
05:06:30 <DGMurdockIII> please take a look at it
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08:09:29 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
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08:57:22 <Troy> hi
08:58:13 <Troy> After today's update Instantbird startup and an error message "Instantbird encountered an error during start-up and must close, we apologize for the inconvenience.
08:58:13 <Troy> Description: XPCOM registration of the purplexpcom component failed. "
08:58:21 <Troy> What's this?
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09:35:55 * ChanServ sets mode +qo flo flo 
09:37:38 <flo> hi
09:37:52 <flo> do not update to today's nightly. It does not start at all!
09:48:54 <Chaz6> There's been one unhappy customer in this morning already, I didn't update yet thankfully
09:51:39 * BinaryOutcast is now known as MattATobin
09:52:14 <flo> who was the unhappy customer?
09:52:35 <MattATobin> mornin flo
09:52:52 <flo> ah, Troy
09:54:01 * MattATobin <--- happy customer, tho i dunno if i can be considerd a customer since its free software... i love taking things out of context its fun to speculate on what one line of text means
09:54:26 <flo> don't check for updates today ;)
09:54:49 * MattATobin scrolls back
09:55:31 <MattATobin> someone broke xpcom?
09:56:14 <flo> I think that's from: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=519357
09:57:26 * flo is trying to change that error message so that instead of "Instantbird cannot start, sorry", it becomes "Instantbird cannot start, would you like to check for updates?"
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10:00:16 topic changed by flo to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/. Today's nightly does not start, sor"
10:01:02 topic changed by flo to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only - broken today, sorry!), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
10:13:40 <Mic> In a case like this, that a new build doesn't start, can you distribute e.g. yesterdays nightly instead as update?
10:14:00 <flo> it would be nice
10:14:11 <flo> I'd like to have Even's opinion on this
10:14:30 <flo> (he is the one who knows the server side part of the update system)
10:15:10 <flo> I'd like to have a way to test automatically that the build can at least start and connect to most major IM networks before it is put as an automatic update
10:18:57 <flo> I think this should help for the next time such a failure occurs: http://pastebin.instantbird.com/70
10:23:53 * flo rebuilds locally a non-debug build, hoping it won't start, so that he can test his fix for the problem of the nightlies
10:26:13 <MattATobin> flo: can i show you something? not related to this current topic
10:27:39 <flo> yes!
10:27:57 <flo> always! (just make sure we know what you are talking about :))
10:28:23 <MattATobin> flo: background... as you know ive been learning the xul and other related technologys of the mozilla source code... and with some experamentation with seamonkey ive been going on some sort of thing to clean up and reduce popup windows from preferences and get a unified consitant ui and such... so ive recently masterd iframes and tabboxes... 
10:29:20 <MattATobin> anyway here is what i just did in instantbirds options window... dunno if anyone will like the concept but i do :P anyway http://personal.mattatobin.com/screenshots/misc/instantbirdaccountsinpreferences.png
10:30:13 <MattATobin> now i know iframes scream *hack* but this is only as far as i got to xul hacking so far
10:30:39 <MattATobin> i hope to learn to properly transplant things like this without iframes as i learn more
10:34:02 <flo> that's very discussable, but IMHO the account manager is used for lots of things that are not preferences, and its place is not in the preferences window.
10:34:05 <MattATobin> since people value their popup windows for everything i was thinking of making an addon in the future that does this properly so anyone who likes the concept of settings should be configured in settings (options preferences whatever you wanna call it its the same thing)
10:34:14 <flo> looking at the status of accounts, connecting and disconnecting accounts, etc...
10:34:21 <MattATobin> ahh
10:34:36 <flo> however, when checking or unchecking the "Sign-on at startup", or clicking the "Properties" button, that's actually changing preferences
10:35:14 <MattATobin> im thinking of as i learn more taking a page out of trillians ui book and creating a status indicating toolbar of some sort
10:35:29 <MattATobin> or a stratus indicating status bar
10:35:47 <flo> we plan to use the (currently empty) status bar of the buddy list to display the status of account connections
10:36:32 <MattATobin> are u planning to do it in the trillan method or the pidgin method
10:36:58 <flo> the last time I used trillian was 5 to 6 years ago.
10:37:24 <MattATobin> trillian has an indicator for each medium
10:37:37 <MattATobin> that is setup anyway
10:38:12 <flo> the status of the accounts (connected or not) will be in the status bar (at the bottom of the window). The status of the user (available, away, busy, idle) will be in a status area at the top of the buddy list
10:38:20 <Mic> MattA: I've done some things for that already
10:38:49 <Mic> I'm grouping the accounts according to their protocols, ie Trillian style
10:38:55 <MattATobin> ahh
10:39:08 <MattATobin> how will the statusbar look?
10:39:42 <Mic> hmm .. there are some mockups, let me find them ..
10:42:57 <MattATobin> u know trillains main problem other then its bloated as hell... the fact u have to now have a trillain account to do anything and that jabber protocols is still not avaiable in the free version
10:44:01 <Mic> http://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Account_quickaccess2.png
10:44:03 <Mic> http://wiki.instantbird.org/File:Account_quickaccess3.png
10:44:18 <Mic> Something like that.
10:44:23 <MattATobin> or is jabber free now... its been going back and forth durring the beta... trillain is pretty but bloated and tieing it to a webaccount is stupid... means if they dont like u u get terminated...
10:44:26 <MattATobin> ok checking
10:44:39 <Mic> These menu items will offer context menus on which you can do things similiar to the current account manager
10:44:45 <Mic> I prefer #3
10:45:23 <MattATobin> yes this is exactly what i was thinking
10:45:35 <Mic> The menu opens downwards in this screenshot, but that can be changed easily
10:45:42 <MattATobin> yeah
10:46:29 <MattATobin> and adding options like connect disconnect and stuff on the menus? and if its multiaccount on one protocols those options go into submenus for each account?
10:47:03 <Mic> Clicking an account will connect/disconnet depending on its current status
10:47:10 <MattATobin> ok..
10:47:14 <Mic> That's why there are checkmarks
10:47:22 <Mic> checked = connected
10:48:00 <Mic> I don't like the idea of having submenus there
10:48:30 <MattATobin> well with some teaking the status bar could easly reduce the account manager to setting up and managing accounts and account options duty which would lol send it more into the domain of preferences
10:48:47 <MattATobin> :P
10:49:07 <Mic> I think the account manager is the place where you can do anything related to accounts
10:49:46 <Mic> So we shouldn't strip functionality from there just because we add a way to connect from the status bar 
10:50:07 <Mic> It is hard to reach by keyboard for example, the account manager is much better for that
10:50:47 <Mic> (Though I have a half ready accounts submenu for the menu bar;) 
10:51:09 <MattATobin> i wouldnt strip anything i would just point out that as long as your not configuring connect options setting up removing accounts its more inline as a preferences type thing
10:52:00 <MattATobin> i guess... its a personal preference (no pun intended)
10:52:48 <MattATobin> u know perhaps there is an addon in all of this
10:53:10 <MattATobin> for me to make an addon to this type of behavor
10:55:09 <MattATobin> i dunno it just seems having all these configuration windows floating around seems like everything is everyware... not in instantbird (yet) but other programs firefox thunderbird seamonkey... now seamonkey granted has the majority in there great monolithic preferences window but still popups... everyware
10:56:10 <MattATobin> perhaps im too 90s in my thinking
10:56:42 <Mic> well, if it had a nice tree structure, I'd go for about:config :P
10:56:55 <MattATobin> Mic: yeah number 3 is deffently better then 2
10:56:56 <MattATobin> heh
10:57:11 <MattATobin> perhaps you need to create a new about:config
10:57:15 <MattATobin> or someone
10:57:26 <Mic> I think there's something like that already for FF
10:59:00 <MattATobin> oh any plans for a system tray icon?
10:59:02 <MattATobin> :P
11:00:21 <Mic> Look for .. MinToTrayR (?) on the Addons site
11:00:36 * flo doesn't see such a big difference between 3 and 2. except that 3 has drop down arrows
11:01:17 <Mic> I think that's the thing that makes the difference
11:01:23 <MattATobin> flo: it just seems better
11:01:29 <Mic> You definitely see that there will a menu open when clicking it
11:01:45 <flo> that's a very minor detail. It's just a visual thing, something we can decide at the last minute :)
11:02:20 <Mic> argh ... UI things are no last-minute things
11:02:28 <MattATobin> no they arnt
11:02:34 <flo> "better" or not is not really the point. The real question is "what are we trying to do here?"
11:02:52 <MattATobin> when im doing things in vb i always design the ui first then make things work...
11:03:00 <flo> do we really want someone to disconnect an account by a single click on the name of the account?
11:03:16 <flo> a checkbox is not explicit at all about which action will be performed
11:03:17 <MattATobin> i honestly think not
11:03:25 <Mic> If not we could as well make him open the account manager
11:03:33 <Mic> It's supposed to be a shortcut
11:03:45 <flo> I see this more as a status area. I'm really interest by the tooltip that will appear when hovering one of the icon
11:04:06 <flo> and (double?)clicking on an account should IMHO open the account manager with that account selected
11:04:46 <flo> whether we add a submenu there or/and in the menubar to perform directly/quickly some actions is still to be discussed/tried
11:06:06 <MattATobin> to me the point of having this type of thing other then as a status indicatior is quick access to frequently used operations... Connect Disconnect perhaps a few others however just a checkmark is not enough and a shortcut to the account manager should be reserved for more then simple options for each protocol
11:06:23 <Mic> Let's see
11:06:37 <flo> and just to answer that "last minute" thing. Designing the UI is really not a last minute thing. But by designing the UI, I mean designing the interactions that the user will have with the UI. The visual details are last-minute things, and changing them is up to theme authors.
11:07:26 <MattATobin> not to mention per protocol staus states.. sometimes i want to set aim to away or invisable but leave the other protocols online that type of thing should be in the status area
11:08:00 <flo> MattATobin: if everything is well designed and configured, you have no common action related to the accounts that you need to perform
11:08:55 <flo> how often do you want to connect or disconnect a specific account? and more interestingly, why?
11:10:07 <flo> having a different status for each protocol is probably something we want for extensions. It's hard to create a not-bloated UI to handle this situation.
11:10:15 <MattATobin> actualy simifrequently... maybe i dont want to be on that account at that moment... in anycase im thinking in terms of trillian how they do it... there are global actions and global protocol actions and specific account actions
11:10:39 <Mic> .. which is a mess imo
11:10:46 <flo> exactly!
11:10:51 <MattATobin> really?
11:10:57 <MattATobin> i found it convenent
11:10:59 <Mic> I never used the global actions
11:11:14 <Mic> well, away now, preparing lunch
11:11:17 <MattATobin> well setting all away is a global action or global disconnect or global connect
11:11:24 <flo> yeah, I need to go get lunch too!
11:11:29 <flo> talk to you later! :)
11:11:32 <MattATobin> k
11:11:42 <MattATobin> cya
11:12:08 <flo> MattATobin: global actions make sense. Per protocol/account don't. Except for very specific needs that can be addressed by extensions.
11:13:20 <MattATobin> ok... perhaps having them in the status bar isnt a good idea perhaps in an accounts menu option like pidgin... does that help?
11:14:12 <MattATobin> well you guys get lunch
11:14:15 <MattATobin> ill bbl
11:15:57 <MattATobin> flo: aio is broke
11:16:02 <MattATobin> the addons site
11:16:18 <MattATobin> Redirection limit for this URL exceeded.  Unable to load the requested page. 
11:16:35 <MattATobin> and i get a bunch of /seamonkey/seamonkey/seamonkey/ etc
11:26:09 <Mic> You mean this: https://addons.instantbird.org/en-US/instantbird/
11:26:10 <Mic> ?
11:26:24 <Mic> Works for me here
11:27:29 <Mic> What I think on UI is: if something is eg representing a buddy you should be able to do things that you can do on a buddy item
11:27:45 <Mic> It shouldn't be a plain text string with his name
11:28:24 <MattATobin> well by just going to addons.instantbird.com it breaks
11:28:42 <MattATobin> wait
11:28:53 <MattATobin> ok it works now
11:29:05 <MattATobin> nevermind i clicked the link on the main site
11:29:13 <MattATobin> and it was doing that redirect loop
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11:39:26 <Mic> re
11:39:41 <Mic> That's why I'm against a 'show status only' solution
11:40:01 <Mic> If it's about accounts, the user should be able to do anything he wants with them
11:43:04 <Mic> gtg
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12:05:53 <flo> real	51m52.256s,user	36m23.579s, sys	6m11.379s
12:05:53 <flo> hmmm, how is such a compilation time possible?
12:07:49 <Morian_> your computer is watching porn><'
12:07:52 * Morian_ is now known as Morian
12:08:04 <flo> ah, ok, it means that iCal is taking 100% of one of the cores :-S
12:08:54 <flo> and it's sending 110kB/s, and receiving 80
12:09:08 <flo> without any program being supposed to do anything with the connection
12:09:10 <flo> hmm...
12:18:00 <flo> the error we have with the current nightly is: http://queze.net/goinfre/error-only.png
12:18:14 <flo> does it look right to change it to: http://queze.net/goinfre/error-update.png ?
12:29:10 <flo> gtg!
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12:29:48 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/2a875880160a - Florian Qu?ze - Changeset from Bug 526760: Port Bug 519357 - Only load known binary components from app directory - to comm-central.
12:29:49 <instantbot> Check-in: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/rev/c29a4ab33a3b - Florian Qu?ze - Add a check for updates button in the startup error dialog.
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14:35:54 <iLobster> greetings
14:38:11 <Mic> Hello
14:38:19 <iLobster> startup failure XPCOM registration of the putplexpcom component falied - is very bad? Windows version last update
14:39:34 <iLobster> *purplexpcom
14:40:44 <Mic> See topic
14:40:49 <Mic> Todays nightly is broken
14:41:52 <iLobster> oki, sorry
14:42:15 <iLobster> 151109 is good?
14:42:28 <iLobster> i need to replace all files?
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14:46:46 <Mic> I think so
14:46:52 <Mic> Yesterdays nightly worked fine
14:48:15 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> i've had to do that with the Windows NIghtlies several times, often on MOnday, after I haven't use the machine for 2-3 days
14:48:43 <flo> DetroitLibertyPenguin: what was the problem?
14:48:46 <iLobster> my first time
14:49:17 <flo> as far as I know, that's the 2nd time we have broken nightly updates since we have nightlies.
14:49:49 <flo> and the first time is so long ago that I don't remember exactly when and/or what the problem was
14:53:13 * flo requested another Windows and Mac nightly
15:12:00 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> flo: I had weird thigns where it would give me some strange error message and not finshi booting
15:13:24 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> I've had several problem like that, but I think its related to the fact I have Windows set to boot Instantbird when Windows boots up
15:13:57 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> and I almost never shut it down properly either
15:14:25 <DetroitLibertyPenguin> i've never got the Facebook add-on to work, and somebody here told me they thought it was related too
15:26:31 <flo> well, the facebook chat plugin is not really stable
15:26:50 <flo> and maybe you have corrupted files if you never shutdown properly the OS.
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15:36:13 <Mic> Wasn't there an issue when not closing IB before shutting down Windows?
15:36:29 <Mic> Failing on next start of IB or so?
15:36:53 <Mic> I think you fixed it .. maybe 2 month ago?
15:38:26 <flo> there was an issue of a stupid error message poping up. But I don't remember any startup issue caused by it
16:08:15 <Mic> I thought you had to try twice next time
16:08:33 <Mic> well, guess I'm mistaken on this
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16:54:34 <Troy> hi all
16:54:54 <flo> hi
16:56:04 <Troy> In tomorrow nightly build bug will be fixed?
16:57:03 <flo> a new correct Mac nightly is already available
16:57:12 <Troy> Win?
16:57:15 <flo> a Windows nightly that works should be ready in less than an hour
16:57:51 <Troy> Excellent! Thank you!
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16:58:13 <flo> np
16:59:19 <Troy> I looked at HG - you have changed the window that appears when an error?
16:59:30 <flo> yes
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17:00:38 <flo> today you will have to redownload the nightly yourself.
17:00:53 <flo> if we ever have such a problem again, the error dialog will look like this: http://queze.net/goinfre/error-update.png
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17:02:24 <Troy> Mac?
17:02:45 <Troy> on screenshot
17:02:50 <flo> yes
17:03:10 <flo> just to give you a comparison point, the error today looked like this on mac: http://queze.net/goinfre/error-only.png
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17:07:37 <Troy> flo, is it possible to somehow make sure that it was possible to show and offline contacts too?
17:08:04 <flo> currently no
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17:28:50 <flo> new Windows nightly available!
17:29:02 <Morian> what's new in it ?
17:29:11 <flo> Morian: it can start!
17:29:17 <flo> isn't that great? :-P
17:29:18 <Morian> wow
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17:29:28 <Morian> great progression yes
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17:31:41 <Tro> I downloaded it!
17:31:52 <flo> and it does start?
17:31:55 <m513901> me too it works
17:31:58 <Tro> yes!!
17:32:00 <flo> :)
17:32:09 <Tro> cool!
17:32:41 <flo> Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only - broken today? update!), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/.
17:32:48 topic changed by flo to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only - broken today? update!), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
17:46:32 <flo> see you later!
17:46:54 <-- flo has quit (Quit: Instantbird 0.2b1pre)
17:49:25 <Troy> by flo
17:49:29 <Troy> bye
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19:50:50 <DGMurdockIII> hi
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20:01:40 topic changed by sand.mozilla.org to "Ask questions about Instantbird here. Official website: http://www.instantbird.com. Latest release: 0.2a1. Read http://blog.instantbird.org/. Nightlies: http://ftp.instantbird.com/instantbird/nightly/latest-trunk/ (testing purpose only - broken today? update!), IRC logs: http://log.bezut.info/."
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20:47:01 <DGMurdockIII> hi
20:47:26 <Morian> hi
20:54:54 <Mic> hi
20:55:28 <flo> hi
20:56:06 <flo> (just adding one line to the list of nicks of decreasing size saying "hi" ;) )
20:57:32 <Mic> On my screen the curve of the end of the hi-lines looks like sqrt(x) with x being along the line
20:58:13 <Mic> no, more like log(x) ;)
20:58:19 <flo> that's a scientific hi! ;)
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21:17:51 <DGMurdockIII> flo: do you think you fixed the problem i ben having with instantbird crashing
21:18:02 <flo> not yet
21:18:24 <flo> once I do, I'll ask you (the next day) to confirm it's fixed ;)
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21:21:06 <DGMurdockIII> ok
21:22:15 <DGMurdockIII> Error: Got a NOTICE on AUTH, which does not exist
21:22:15 <DGMurdockIII> Source File: http://hg.instantbird.org/instantbird/raw-file/c29a4ab33a3b/purple/libpurple/protocols/irc/msgs.c
21:22:15 <DGMurdockIII> Line: 1194
21:22:16 <DGMurdockIII> Source Code:
21:22:16 <DGMurdockIII> irc: irc_msg_handle_privmsg
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21:30:35 <flo> good night!
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21:33:59 <Chaz6> Night flo
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22:19:57 <Mic> MattATobin: Here's another mockup on the account access bar
22:19:59 <Mic> http://wiki.instantbird.org/images/6/6d/Account_quickaccess4.png
22:21:19 <Mic> Single click would connect/disconnect, context menu of an item would be similiar to the account manager (especially allowing access to properties)
22:21:43 <Mic> It might be a bit fancy right now, I admit ;)
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22:27:45 <MattATobin> hmm
22:27:47 <MattATobin> interesting
22:28:08 <MattATobin> no icons for the dropdown items its self?
22:28:43 <Mic> not yet, I couldn't be bothered to look up how to do iconic buttons ;)
22:28:50 <MattATobin> i perpose all connected some connect and all offline states for the dropdown menu icons
22:29:44 <MattATobin> some connected would not be used if it only has one account of course
22:30:07 <Mic> hmm?
22:30:31 <MattATobin> well the icons for the buttons them selves
22:30:54 <MattATobin> can indicate if its online offline or in the case of multiple accounts on that protocol some connected
22:30:57 <Mic> Sure, but there is just 'all connected' or 'none connected' if you have only one account
22:31:06 <MattATobin> right
22:31:18 <Mic> Some connected is a bit complicated do display in my opinion
22:32:09 <MattATobin> im guessing full color full saturation for connected and washed out or grey for not connected right?
22:32:10 <Mic> btw that's just another mockup
22:32:42 <Mic> this doesn't work that well on grey icons imo
22:33:33 <MattATobin> ok... ill have to see what ur gonna do and then comment i guess
22:34:23 <MattATobin> but that ui element is not as important as buddy list management
22:34:49 <Mic> Buddylist management is a 0.3 goal
22:37:07 <MattATobin> well can we find a way to atleast display the contacts in the order that it is on the accoutn manager... i have AIM GTalk ICQ MSN Y! in that order and i group contacts in that same way but if all are set to auto connect if some protocols take longer to signon then i may get the oder as MSN ICQ GTALK Y! and AIM
22:37:15 <MattATobin> on the buddy list that is
22:38:25 <MattATobin> but meh its not a gole till 0.3 thats ok too
22:38:41 <DGMurdockIII> it not to early to start playing for .03
22:38:46 <DGMurdockIII> .3*
22:39:47 <MattATobin> i still think account manager should be in preferences
22:39:56 <MattATobin> but thats just me
22:40:01 <MattATobin> i guess
22:50:25 <Mic> good night
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