#instantbird log on 10 17 2012

All times are UTC.

00:01:56 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted feedback for attachment 1970 on bug 1702.
00:01:58 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1702 enh, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, RFE: Allow localizers to ship additional Jabber networks with their localizations
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06:24:49 <instant-buildbot> build #652 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/652
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08:40:46 <flo> has anybody ever seen this error?
08:40:47 <flo> Error: [Exception... "'ReferenceError: Interruptions is not defined' when calling method: [nsIObserver::observe]"  nsresult: "0x8057001c (NS_ERROR_XPC_JS_THREW_JS_OBJECT)"  location: "JS frame :: resource:///modules/jsProtoHelper.jsm :: <TOP_LEVEL> :: line 411"  data: no]
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09:17:11 <Mic> Hi
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09:43:58 * flo-retina is now known as florian
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10:24:03 <clokep> Good morning!
10:25:31 <Mic> Good morning
10:27:36 <florian> clokep: great blog post! :)
10:27:57 <clokep> florian: Thanks. I hope it wasn't too much of a rant!
10:28:55 <clokep> florian: "Would it be possible for an extension to send XMPP stanzas? Then the extension could follow http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0126.html"
10:29:02 <clokep> I assume that that's actually something we'd accept in core?
10:29:45 <florian> yes and yes
10:29:59 <florian> I think varuna actually had the code for gtalk invisibility
10:30:18 <florian> I think I removed it during the review/JS-XMPP integration because it wasn't polished enough
10:30:30 <florian> and had no visible use case
10:30:41 <clokep> Apparently Samuel Sidler really disagrees with my post though.
10:31:03 <florian> (the "Invisible" status we currently have conflicts in annoying ways with the automatic status changes related to auto-away when idle, and to auto-offline/reconnect related to the network status.
10:31:42 <florian> who's that guy? Have we interacted with him before or not?
10:31:47 <clokep> He's a Moz guy.
10:31:52 <clokep> I know the name, but not who he is.
10:32:04 <clokep> Right, but isn't the interaction w/ auto-away / reconnect a bug?
10:32:36 <florian> clokep: sure
10:32:49 <florian> but not one I'm motivated to fix myself to add a mis-feature ;).
10:33:01 <florian> we could review patches of course
10:33:03 <clokep> Wasn't suggesting that. :)
10:34:09 <florian> I read his comment twice.
10:34:14 <florian> I don't get his point (if there is one)
10:35:41 <florian> and I can't decide if I'm going to reply myself or let you do it :)
10:38:12 <clokep> I can't think of anything good to say, so if you have something....
10:38:29 <clokep> The way I see his comment though is that they're "Unavailable" with a status message set. They don't need to be a separate Status
10:38:45 <clokep> I don't think I was clear that this was about /Statuses/ not including /Status Messages/.
10:39:20 <florian> yeah, there are 2 things that you didn't include in your original post
10:40:05 <clokep> (I guess that was obvious to me since we always talk of them as two different things?)
10:40:15 <florian> 1. That typically protocols that support multiple "unavailable" status types are those that originally didn't have a status message that the user could type. (on the other hand, protocols that had customizable messages from the begining never needed these: AIM, Google Talk...)
10:42:14 <florian> 2. The invisible status is bad for 3 reasons: (idealistic) it's a lie, (technical) impossible to get right, (long term) it damages the network by making the presence information (the thing that makes IM more useful than SMSes) completely unreliable.
10:43:29 <florian> clokep: also, you can see that he's a liar and doesn't see that as a problem, as he said the solution to not use the invisible status is to use a fake idle time (!).
10:44:18 <clokep> florian: Yes, but that's confrontational to point out. :)
10:44:28 <clokep> I'd like it if you could include some of that information in a comment ^.
10:44:32 <florian> that he's a liar? :-D
10:45:40 <clokep> :P
10:48:57 * clokep wonders if Mic is still waiting for a review from him...
10:49:31 * florian doesn't know if anybody is waiting for reviews from him, but that seems irrelevant while the tree is so busted :(
10:49:40 <clokep> Nope. :)
10:49:54 <clokep> florian: I am for SIPE, but yeah....tree being busted is more important.
10:49:59 * Mic goes and checks his requests list.
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10:51:34 <florian> clokep: what's worrying about the busted tree is: nobody seems to be working on it
10:51:35 <Mic> clokep: I'm not requesting any reviews from you at the moment. Maybe you missed when I removed a request recently (I think I temporarily had one on bug 435?)
10:51:39 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=435 min, --, ---, benediktp, NEW, Hide "Show custom smilies"-option for libpurple XMPP and MSN and make it default to false
10:52:31 <florian> bah, I thought I r+'ed that :-S
10:53:34 <florian> ah, I was in the train when I read that
10:53:37 <clokep> Mic: Yeah, I missed that.
10:54:02 <clokep> florian: I know. :-/ Are we leaving the Linux bustage until Moz 16 upgrade?
10:55:10 <florian> clokep: is anybody working on the moz16 upgrade?
10:55:26 <clokep> florian: I can, but I can't do the PPC stuff.
10:55:44 <clokep> I'll start doing whatever needs to be done for Linux / Windows tonight.
10:55:52 <florian> the likelyhood of me touching that before Saturday afternoon is very low, and I may be traveling (for work) as soon as Sunday evening (or Monday morning)...
10:56:15 <clokep> Hopefully they send you nicer places then I'e been sent... :)
10:58:43 <florian> clokep: likely California next week, and Vancouver (part of) the week after
10:59:30 <clokep> Yes, nicer. :)
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12:00:02 <clokep_work> florian: Were you going to reply on my post or later?
12:00:20 <florian> I was, and got distracted.
12:01:06 * florian wonders why vicnet hasn't resolved bug 1631 yet
12:01:09 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1631 tri, --, ---, goofyfr, ASSI, [fr] fixing vos besoin > vos besoins
12:04:17 <clokep_work> :(
12:10:31 <clokep_work> Was it committed?
12:10:40 <florian> no
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12:25:35 <clokep_work> OK. :)
12:30:13 * Mic has a fix for the "re-order" part of bug 485. The code was there all the time, it just didn't work :(
12:30:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Not possible to re-order / detach tabs using the keyboard
12:30:45 <clokep_work> Mic: I'm not sure if that is :) or :(.
12:31:07 <clokep_work> Mic: Set r=me, I think. (Unless it's complicated, then give it to fl orian! :-D)
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12:50:07 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1972 on bug 485.
12:50:10 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485 nor, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Re-ordering conversation tabs with the keyboard is broken
12:52:28 <instantbot> New Instantbird (UI) bug 1731 filed by benediktp@ymail.com.
12:52:31 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1731 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Detach tabs using only the keyboard
12:59:04 <clokep_work> Mic: I'll look at that tonight.
13:10:51 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1972 on bug 485.
13:10:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=485 nor, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Re-ordering conversation tabs with the keyboard is broken
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13:32:51 <clokep_work> Anyone want to read this as a response to my blog post? http://pastebin.instantbird.com/85793
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13:41:17 <florian> clokep_work: "this <i>does not</i> not"
13:42:31 <clokep_work> florian: Thanks. I was more concerned at being too much of a dick than grammar errors. :)
13:43:59 <florian> "Unavailable + Idle seems awfully similar to setting yourself as "Invisible"." not sure if your point here, but you probably meant fake idle
13:44:22 <florian> there's no lie in using the unavailable status, and being idle ; if you are really not touching the computer
13:44:46 <clokep_work> "Setting yourself as Unavailable + Idle seems awfully similar to setting yourself as "Invisible"." is what I meant.
13:45:10 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1973 on bug 1674.
13:45:14 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1674 nor, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Accesskey for Add-ons manager not localizable
13:46:13 <florian> if it's what you really meant, ok then. (I'm not sure I agree, but it's your comment :))
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13:48:31 <Even> hi !
13:48:46 <florian> Even: good afternoon :)
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13:49:07 <lali> hello.
13:49:36 <lali> is the hungarian translator here?
13:50:01 <florian> I don't think so, why?
13:50:31 <lali> guten Tag alle!
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13:54:18 <FeuerFliege> clokep_work: are you talking about http://clokep.blogspot.de/2012/10/on-status.html?
13:54:24 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: Yes.
13:54:43 <clokep_work> Hello Even! :)
13:55:13 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1973 on bug 1674.
13:55:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1674 nor, --, ---, benediktp, ASSI, Accesskey for Add-ons manager not localizable
13:55:27 <clokep_work> florian: I might just leave that sentence out, it doesn't add much and is overly confrontational, thanks.
13:57:02 <FeuerFliege> well i do not agree with you that invisible is a lie, but I do think that Samuel and your main problem is a different terminology.
13:58:44 <florian> "i do not agree with you that invisible is a lie" I would be curious to know what you mean.
13:59:54 <florian> It's possible the word "lie" is a bit too aggressive; a longer version could be "it doesn't reflect the reality of the user's status"
14:01:31 <clokep_work> FeuerFliege: Yes, that's pretty much the main point in my reply.
14:03:04 <Mic> Maybe we should start by defining what "truth" is? ;)
14:03:58 * clokep_work opened a can of worms...
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14:09:45 <FeuerFliege> "A lie is just a great story ruined by the truth"
14:39:17 <instantbot> benediktp@ymail.com set the Resolution field on bug 1494 to FIXED.
14:39:19 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1494 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO FIXED, Port Bug 739644 - provide an indication that an item is expanded or collapsed to group.xml
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15:08:20 * clokep_work thinks Mic is on a tear today...
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15:17:46 <instantbot> florian@instantbird.org granted feedback for attachment 1974 on bug 1608.
15:17:48 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1608 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Replace "buddy" with "contact" in user-facing strings
15:28:47 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1975 on bug 1658.
15:28:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1658 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Improve keyboard accessibility of the contact list
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17:25:57 <deOmega> Hi, I have a problem .
17:26:03 <deOmega> jk :)
17:26:39 <clokep_work> Hello deOmega.
17:26:55 <deOmega> clokep_work:  How have you been?
17:27:06 <clokep_work> deOmega: Busy, how're you?
17:27:43 <deOmega> doing alright.  Been somewhat distracted moving (Still in the process), but doing kay.
17:28:09 <deOmega> and her sister.  sorry i meant doing Okay
17:29:42 <clokep_work> Right.
17:29:50 <clokep_work> Really no problems? :P
17:33:02 <deOmega> haha, nope
17:33:12 <deOmega> I have not been using teh beta actually
17:33:21 <clokep_work> Good. :) So you're on 1.2 then?
17:33:26 <clokep_work> I hope you found some of the changes useful!
17:33:47 <deOmega> yes I am on 1.2 official
17:34:22 <deOmega> yes, it is working fine for me
17:34:29 <clokep_work> Excellent! :)
17:34:58 <Mic> Hi deOmega :)
17:35:28 <deOmega> Mic: Hi mic.. Long time
17:35:55 <Mic> Indeed
17:39:40 <florian> hi :)
17:41:10 * clokep_work wonders how we did anything w/o the read marker...
17:45:03 * Mook_as looks for somebody to prod about bug 760762
17:47:18 <florian> Mook_as: say at least the title of the bug? ;)
17:49:54 <Mook_as> oh, it's the read marker bug :)
17:50:07 <Mook_as> (where it does not appear to exist in thunderbird)
17:50:47 <Mic> Wrong channel then? :P
17:51:39 * florian wonders if Mook needs a Get Instantbird link :-P
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18:07:17 <deOmega> florian: Hi flo
18:08:05 <deOmega> I will catch you guys later.  good luck as usual
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18:41:50 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm set the Resolution field on bug 409 to WORKSFORME.
18:41:53 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=409 nor, --, ---, nobody, RESO WORKSFORME, [Accessibility] Chat partner status changes (typing, away, etc.) are not accessible
18:42:34 <clokep_work> aleth: Do you actually know that that works?
18:43:10 <clokep_work> Or just that it seems like it's been fixed via other bugs?
18:43:56 <aleth> No, I can't test it. I get the impression that it's been fixed from the comments and other bugs, and the lack of response to a recent question. So I thought WFM would be appropriate (and lead to complaints if wrong ;) )
18:44:19 <aleth> The bug was certainly not invalid or wontfix...
18:44:45 <clokep_work> That's what I thought. :)
18:44:59 <clokep_work> Just wanted to make sure.
18:45:02 <clokep_work> Thanks for the info (and work!)
18:45:31 <aleth> Just went through the unconfirmed list in the lunch break... ;)
18:45:41 <clokep_work> Looks like bug 9 is our last 1 digit bug! ;)
18:45:49 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9 enh, P5, ---, nobody, NEW, Support of file transfers
18:46:02 <aleth> How appropriate :D
18:47:04 * aleth is surprised it wasn't filed by EionR obb
18:47:33 <clokep_work> Hahah.
18:47:39 <clokep_work> You'd think. :)
18:47:40 <clokep_work> But nope.
18:48:22 <aleth> Do we have a convention for OR in the /help command syntax descriptions?
18:48:48 <aleth> i.e. for (this parameter) OR (that one)
18:49:02 <clokep_work> | is usually used, I think.
18:49:05 <clokep_work> Example?
18:49:47 <aleth> Fixing bug 1697 (turns out there is nothing much to do actually, unless I am forgetting something)
18:49:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1697 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Update /mode command syntax
18:50:01 <clokep_work> It's just a string change, yes.
18:50:11 <aleth> Yup.
18:50:14 <clokep_work> What're you trying to change it to? :)
18:50:23 <clokep_work> (From mode [<channel>] [(+|-)<new mode>] [<nick>]: Set or unset a channel or user mode.)
18:50:26 <aleth> Still considering.
18:50:38 <aleth> Annoyingly, one can't use %S twice.
18:50:56 <clokep_work> What?
18:51:21 <aleth> (twice in the same localised string)
18:51:40 <clokep_work> Doesn't it really just need to say mode [<channel>] [(+|-)<new mode>] [<parameters>]?
18:52:25 <aleth> That's the minimalist option... also rather unhelpful.
18:52:53 <clokep_work> :P
18:53:05 <clokep_work> aleth: You really just need to make it so it'll tab complete with help text...
18:53:30 <clokep_work> So if I type /mode<space> it'll show (already highlighted) the current channel name or something.
18:53:46 <aleth> :D
18:53:56 <clokep_work> zsh style completions. ;)
18:54:02 <aleth> That would almost work if /mode wasn't so overloaded ;)
18:54:33 <clokep_work> Some of the bits of it you can do other ways.
18:54:38 <clokep_work> op/voice/hop.
18:54:41 <clokep_work> Maybe ban.
18:56:09 <Mook_as> aleth: %1$S doesn't work?
18:56:15 <aleth> Really if I type /mode<space> and pause for more than half a second, it might as well auto-open a suitable webpage
18:56:47 <aleth> listing all the cryptic combinations
18:57:53 <aleth> Mook_as: good idea!
18:57:54 * Mook_as was going to say "popup panel" then realized that would cover the most recently said thing in the channel and is therefore bad
18:58:08 <aleth> That actually works
18:58:17 <aleth> (i.e. can be repeated)
18:58:32 <Mic> What about a transparent panel with an animated dog that asks if the user needs help? :P
18:58:42 <Mic> scnr
18:59:02 <aleth> Mic: that might actually be worth it just for the responses ;)
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19:09:56 <aleth> clokep_work: How's this? https://i.minus.com/jNVijt3TJEi7u.png
19:12:00 <clokep_work> aleth: does /mode <nick> work?
19:12:43 <aleth> Nope. :/ I just thought it did.
19:13:18 <clokep_work> IIRC you can't query the mode of another nick.
19:13:31 <clokep_work> Unless you mean the mode of that nick in the current channel?
19:14:02 <aleth> That doesn't work either though.
19:14:25 <aleth> Not that it's necessary really, as we already show that info
19:14:48 <aleth> I guess I can just drop the "display" line then even though it works for the channel mode
19:15:32 <clokep_work> Right.
19:15:36 * clokep_work still hates that command.
19:15:44 * aleth agrees
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19:18:48 <aleth> Do we actually have a bug filed for user mode (221)
19:18:57 <clokep_work> I think so.
19:23:38 <clokep_work> aleth: I'd be fine closing bug 1419 once 221 is handled.
19:23:42 <clokep_work> I think the other ones have bugs on file.
19:23:47 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1419 nor, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Add the remaining missing MODE responses
19:25:05 <aleth> I completely missed that 221 was mentioned in the bug description :S
19:28:23 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1977 on bug 1697.
19:28:27 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1697 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Update /mode command syntax
19:30:57 <aleth> There never seems an end to papercuts :-/
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19:35:38 <aleth> clokep_work: Would you like to see that added to the string?
19:35:59 <clokep_work> aleth: Do you think it makes it too complicated?
19:36:05 <-- Mic has quit (Input/output error)
19:36:38 <aleth> I think it's a tradeoff, but I'm OK either way I think. 
19:36:48 <aleth> Just seems an obscure use case.
19:36:52 <clokep_work> Please add it.
19:37:02 <clokep_work> I don't know...
19:37:29 <aleth> Yay, I can take a peek at the mode of #developers without joining... ;)
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19:38:59 <aleth> But I like your suggestion as it's minimally more complicated.
19:40:49 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1977 on bug 1697.
19:40:50 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1978 on bug 1697.
19:40:51 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1697 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Update /mode command syntax
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19:43:06 <Mic> Is there any other popular keyword than #fail on Twitter?
19:43:47 <aleth> 'the'?
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19:45:04 <aleth> or maybe people drop that from tweets actually...
19:45:59 <Mic> It's OK, "the" and "#fail" worked fine
19:46:17 <Mic> http://i.imgur.com/oC17d.png
19:48:05 <Mic> Wasn't difficult at all. A bit hackish at the moment (re-defining title and name getters after creating a conversation) but beside that ...
19:49:42 <aleth> That's a busy timeline ;)
19:50:59 <Mic> The interesting part is "#fail" and "the" having their own conversations
19:51:24 <aleth> Yup :)
19:51:58 <aleth> I don't use that feature, so I'm not sure if that should be optional or not
19:53:04 <FeuerFliege> Mic: how did you managed to get separate streams for your tags?
19:53:17 <aleth> FeuerFliege: he coded it up ;)
19:53:26 <FeuerFliege> ah .........
19:53:29 <FeuerFliege> nice!
19:53:38 <Mic> And it was less than 15 lines of code as it turned out.
19:53:51 <FeuerFliege> which bug is it?
19:54:56 <Mic> bug 1872
19:55:00 <Mic> bug 1782
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19:55:14 <Mic> pah
19:55:17 <Mic> bug 1728
19:55:21 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1728 enh, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Show mentions of tracked keywords in own conversations
19:55:40 <Mic> Maybe it's even a duplicate
19:55:42 <FeuerFliege> hey instantbot is tired
19:55:58 <Mic> No, it's me using wrong  bugnumbers
19:56:01 <Mic> gtg
19:56:07 <Mic> have a nice evening
19:56:22 <FeuerFliege> bye!
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19:58:54 <instantbot> unghost@gmail.com requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1979 on bug 1702.
19:58:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1702 enh, --, ---, unghost, ASSI, Add VKontakte protocol
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20:52:52 <florian> aleth: "18:50:38 <aleth> Annoyingly, one can't use %S twice." what does that mean?
20:53:12 <florian> bah, I should read the whole log before asking questions :(
20:59:01 <Mook_as> it means you need to read more of the log ;)
21:00:19 <florian> unghost: in bug 1702 comment 13 you mentioned sending a permission letter by email, who have you sent it to? clokep? (I would suggest team AT instantbird DOT org for such a thing)
21:00:21 <florian> Mook_as: :-P
21:00:22 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1702 enh, --, ---, unghost, ASSI, Add VKontakte protocol
21:12:01 <unghost> florian, done
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21:17:34 <florian> unghost: thanks! :)
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22:21:32 <flo> heh, it looks like EionRobb tweeted that https://twitter.com/mohaneds/status/258562840607203328 ;)
22:21:45 <EionRobb> hahaha
22:22:36 <flo> I think we are likely to have WebRTC file transfers before MSN file transfer :-D
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22:58:13 <clokep> Mic: Yes, I think that separate conversations should be an option.
22:58:29 <clokep> And aleth: I don't think you need a separate stream, you just need to check the tracked keywords bit in the JSON response.
23:00:01 <clokep> flo: WebRTC file transfers look reasonable?
23:00:12 <clokep> (I'm taking "WebRTC" to mean XMPP btw.)
23:01:12 <flo> clokep: in this context, I think I meant more "P2P" than XMPP
23:02:05 <clokep> Ah-ha!
23:02:09 <clokep> MSN goes through a proxy?
23:02:17 <EionRobb> can do
23:02:36 <flo> clokep: so the best candidate is obviously XMPP
23:02:43 <clokep> IRC!!!
23:02:51 <flo> clokep: but if you want to do some custom ft stuff on IRC, we could make it work
23:03:05 <clokep> "custom" meaning "not compatible w/ DCC"?
23:03:10 <flo> clokep: if you support efficient ft on IRC, we could as well add webcam support there ;)
23:03:26 <clokep> flo: There's a specification for that, believe it or not...
23:03:31 <flo> clokep: I've no idea of how DCC is supposed to work
23:03:42 <clokep> Me neither. :)
23:03:45 <clokep> I mean I have /some/ idea.
23:03:48 <flo> clokep: but I suspect it's an older technology than what's used for WebRTC
23:03:49 <clokep> But it's been a while.
23:04:15 <flo> clokep: "flo: There's a specification for that, believe it or not..." do you mean there's _only_ one?
23:04:21 <EionRobb> nah, just use http file link thingee and be done with it ;)
23:04:27 <clokep> flo: Actually...I think there is /only/ one. :)
23:04:43 * clokep debates r-ing aleth's patch after he said it looked good. :-/
23:04:59 <flo> EionRobb: that's the fallback!
23:05:22 <EionRobb> who needs a fallback when that's good enough
23:05:38 <flo> oh, wait, we can use that for video too!
23:06:04 <flo> when starting the audio/video session, send an http link with a known format
23:07:01 <flo> the link would contain all the required data to start the negotiation. Either the web page can do it through webrtc (assuming the receiver has either Firefox or Chrome), or the client on the other side is Instantbird (or Thunderbird) and can catch it to "do the right thing"
23:07:29 <clokep> :) Sounds promising.
23:07:34 <clokep> Guess those docs you've been reading are helpful?
23:07:56 <Mook_as> pretty sure DCC file transfers have a "specification" in the form of mIRC.exe :p
23:08:09 <Mook_as> (ask Silver about resuming some time)
23:08:23 <clokep> Mook_as: No, he's just a jerk no matter what you ask him.
23:08:39 <clokep> Also mIRC breaks like every spec out there. :(
23:08:41 <Mook_as> ... and that can't be amusing?
23:09:12 <flo> "those docs you've been reading are helpful?" I'm not reading them nearly fast enough ;).
23:09:20 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com granted review for attachment 1978 on bug 1697.
23:09:23 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1697 nor, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Update /mode command syntax
23:09:30 * Mook_as thinks Silver's just... disillusioned from attempting interop with things like various mozilla versions and IRC clients.
23:09:55 <clokep> Mook_as: AFAIK Instantbird is compatible w/ all other IRC clients.
23:10:01 * clokep waits for Mook to file bugs...
23:10:11 <clokep> flo: I imagine you'll learn them like I know RFCs. :P
23:10:17 <flo> Mook_as: isn't that the guy who tries to keep his code compatible with Mozilla 1.4 (or even earlier) and current trunk at the same time?
23:10:37 <Mook_as> yep, though I think he gave up and is closer to 1.8 or 1.9 these days
23:10:43 <flo> clokep: not sure, I won't be doing low level stuff.
23:11:14 * clokep finds that ridiculous.
23:11:30 <flo> Mook_as: you mean he dropped Firefox 1.0?!?!
23:11:48 <flo> (for those who are too young to remember, Firefox 1.0 was on Mozilla 1.7.5)
23:11:55 <Mook_as> he's not Neil running Netscape 6 for IRC, you know ;)
23:12:23 <flo> err... what?!?
23:12:24 <Mook_as> oh, sorry, netscape 7. http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/6416
23:12:56 <clokep> Yeah Firefox 1....those were the days.
23:13:08 <clokep> Mook_as: I think he should update to Thunderbird. ;)
23:14:40 * flo is trying to remember what netscape 7 was
23:14:56 <flo> is that the version based on Mozilla 1.0?
23:15:14 <clokep> flo: Is WebRTC point-to-point only or can it do multiple people too?
23:15:36 <flo> clokep: yes to both parts :-P
23:16:10 <EionRobb> that was an "or" not an "xor" so the correct answer was "true" :P
23:16:18 <flo> you can send as many streams as you want to as many people as you want
23:16:26 <Mook_as> hmm. yeah, I think 6 was 0.9-something, and 7 was 1.0
23:16:34 <Mook_as> (and 5 was 404)
23:16:51 <clokep> flo: So you can have multiple people all chatting w/ one another as long as your app negotiates it.
23:18:51 <flo> clokep: webrtc does 3 things: 1. giving you access to webcam/microphone 2. Providing easy access to encoding/decoding of these medias (ie codecs, ...). 3. Making it super simple to establish a direct connection between 2 browsers (ie NAT traversal, etc...)
23:19:03 <clokep> Ah, nice. :)
23:19:19 <flo> clokep: everything else is up to the consumers of the API
23:19:52 <flo> clokep: also, 3. is done in a way that's directly inspired from the Jingle XMPP specification, so I have some good hopes that it's going to do just what we need for XMPP.
23:20:40 <clokep> :) flo that sounds wonderful!
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23:21:06 <clokep> We can have video meetings then. ;)
23:21:25 <flo> clokep: the only real difference seems to be that the data exchanged during the negociation isn't serialized to XML
23:21:56 <flo> clokep: so we will probably need to parse that and convert it to XML to send it to the XMPP server, and then back in the other way to give it back to the WebRTC API
23:23:32 <flo> clokep: ":) flo that sounds wonderful!" it does! But it's also still a bit theoretical. The spec is still under heavy discussions, and the API still keeps changing.
23:23:56 <clokep> Ah. I see. :(
23:25:11 <Mook_as> how different is it from, say, SIP, or whatever it is people use for telephony these days? (is h.263 still a thing?)
23:25:18 <flo> clokep: I think we can hope that it will be possible to play with it in Instantbird nightlies in the timeframe of Gecko 20
23:25:40 <flo> clokep: we can of course start playing before, but the code will be likely to bitrot quickly
23:26:03 <flo> Mook_as: it's available in the browser, to all websites
23:26:26 <flo> Mook_as: and we only need JS code to use it!
23:26:36 <clokep> flo: OK, I assume we need to at least update to 17 or 18?
23:26:48 <clokep> flo: Are we satisified with the license on thos vk icons?
23:26:53 <flo> clokep: I think we want to update to 16 asap
23:27:07 <clokep> flo: I'm about to work on it 50% for the rest of the night.
23:27:12 <flo> clokep: we can't update to 17 until the PPC machine has been retired and replaced
23:28:16 <flo> clokep: I think a BSD license is OK, yes
23:28:34 <clokep> flo: I think so too. ;)
23:28:45 <Mook_as> no, I meant in terms of ib doing interop to existing clients :)
23:29:04 <flo> Mook_as: so for XMPP we plan to follow the spec
23:29:25 <Mook_as> right, that's... sane ;)
23:29:54 <flo> so that should be compatible with existing implementations
23:29:57 <Mook_as> and for skype, they hate everybody so it's running it in the background or bust, so no point thinking about it
23:30:01 <flo> but I don't see how that relates to SIP
23:31:12 <clokep> flo: I got a <temporary-auth-failure xmlns="urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:xmpp-sasl"/> failure when trying to connect to vk.
23:31:18 <clokep> Tha tjust mean I have a password wrong or osmething?
23:31:51 <flo> the "temporary" seems to indicate it's a server issue
23:32:27 <flo> out of curiosity, how did our code react? What was the message in the account manager, and was there the reconnect timer? :)
23:32:29 <clokep> Ah, apparently...
23:32:36 <clokep> flo: It said authentication failure.
23:33:08 <EionRobb> I wonder if the licences that IB would get around the SkypeKit licencing restrictions so that you could get skype in IB "without skype running"
23:33:40 <flo> EionRobb: I couldn't parse that sentence
23:33:59 <EionRobb> oops, * the licenses that IB uses
23:34:08 <flo> EionRobb: but for code shipping in add-ons (ie not part of the "Instantbird" product), even proprietary code is OK.
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23:34:22 <EionRobb> there's a clause in the skypekit licence that says that some open-source licenses are forbidden from using skypekit
23:34:23 <clokep> EionRobb: It's not GPL compatible, but it is MPL compatible AFAIK.
23:34:34 <EionRobb> ah ok, so that could work
23:35:09 <Mook_as> yep, songbird had proprietary addons just fine (they get optionally downloaded on first run of the app)
23:35:48 <flo> Mook_as: was songbird really careful about licenses though? ;)
23:36:05 <clokep> flo: " Clients who do not support DNS records should indicate this as the server: vkmessenger.com." is "DNS records" DNS SRV?
23:36:30 <flo> clokep: seems extremely likely
23:37:03 <Mook_as> flo: enough to hire people to actually finish the gstreamer port so it can get off vlc, yeah... :)
23:37:46 <flo> Mook_as: so Songbird wasn't GPL'ed any more?
23:39:18 <Mook_as> yep. (well, it's dual-licensed, getting patches into the official tree involved signing a thing saying it was okay)
23:40:01 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird.org for attachment 1979 on bug 1702.
23:40:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1702 enh, --, ---, unghost, ASSI, Add VKontakte protocol
23:41:16 <flo> clokep: so you could connect after changing the server name?
23:41:39 <clokep> flo: I could connect w/ the server name he used. I was just answering my own review comment of "why are we using vkmessenger.com instead of vk.com"
23:42:48 <flo> ah
23:43:00 <flo> so the auth error was actually just temporary?
23:43:22 <clokep> flo: I got it with an account I had made w/ the previous patch.
23:43:25 <clokep> So I madea new account.
23:43:35 <flo> ok
23:43:58 <flo> how do you feel about that string being in xmpp.properties?
23:44:13 <clokep> We have the GTalk one there it seems.
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23:46:16 <flo> clokep: I know.
23:46:55 <clokep> Then I'm OK w/ it. Seems silly to make a new file for it.
23:47:04 <flo> clokep: I think I'm confused by the code of the connect: method
23:47:21 <flo> clokep: are users expected to enter an username @vk.com, or without @ ?
23:47:55 <clokep> My understanding was it could handle either... as far as I can tell it's just http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/protocols/facebook/facebook.js#23
23:47:55 <clokep> flo ^ ^
23:48:37 <flo> ah
23:49:05 <flo> my concern when reading that code is I suspect it fails poorly if the user includes the "/" character but not the "@" character in his username
23:49:21 <flo> (or course we can blame the user for doing something that stupid :-D)
23:49:36 <clokep> Ah, of course! Would that be an issue for Facebook too? :)
23:53:03 <flo> yes, that code (in facebook.js) seems to suck
23:53:20 <flo> but it's not the fault of the author of the new override :)
23:54:36 <flo> I think my only review comment is that the "Cu.import("resource:///modules/xmpp-xml.jsm");" line isn't needed
23:55:01 <clokep> Oh bah! I meant to check those. :(
23:55:57 <flo> another possible review comment is that "  get normalizedName() "vkontakte"," isn't needed either. But I suspect the performance of the jsProtoHelper method (using a regexp each time the getter is used) isn't great, so hardcoding the result is fine with me.
23:57:24 <clokep> I assumed it was just hard coding it too.
23:57:53 <flo> clokep: http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/modules/jsProtoHelper.jsm#693
23:58:03 <flo> http://lxr.instantbird.org/instantbird/source/chat/modules/jsProtoHelper.jsm#29
23:58:30 <clokep> Yeah.
23:58:38 <clokep> I mean I'm sure that's not awful...but still...
23:59:14 <flo> I disklike it :)
23:59:19 <flo> a little bit too magical ;)
23:59:35 <clokep> We could remove it if you'd like.