#instantbird log on 09 02 2012

All times are UTC.

00:15:09 <instant-buildbot> build #314 of linux-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-onCommit/builds/314
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01:37:04 <instant-buildbot> build #282 of macosx-onCommit is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-onCommit/builds/282
01:49:34 <instant-buildbot> build #300 of win32-onCommit is complete: Failure [failed compile]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-onCommit/builds/300  blamelist: Patrick Cloke <clokep@gmail.com>
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02:59:51 <instant-buildbot> build #618 of linux-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/linux-nightly-default/builds/618
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04:42:58 <instant-buildbot> build #696 of win32-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/win32-nightly-default/builds/696
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06:13:04 <instant-buildbot> build #602 of macosx-nightly-default is complete: Success [build successful]  Build details are at http://buildbot.instantbird.org/builders/macosx-nightly-default/builds/602
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07:11:58 <barlas> instantbird.org is over capacity
07:12:13 <barlas> Over capacity!
07:12:16 <barlas> Due to an unprecedented affluence, this server is currently over capacity.
07:12:16 <barlas> We are doing our best to bring this service back online as soon as possible.
07:12:18 <barlas> Thanks for your interest in Instantbird!
07:13:21 <barlas> Same for .com
07:13:32 <barlas> Oh, that was only for https
07:51:51 <Mook> heh, they both use certs that expired months ago
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08:51:36 <flo> barlas: so why have you used https for that page?
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08:53:16 <barlas> flo: I use https everywhere
08:53:30 <barlas> It automatically redirects to https version of the site if it exists.
08:53:44 <flo> sounds like a stupid "feature"
08:54:08 <flo> you want https only if there's private data involved
08:55:17 <flo> and how does it know that there's an "https version"?
08:56:20 <barlas> It has a database
08:56:26 <barlas> Which doesn't include instantbird
08:56:53 <barlas> So, most probably, I previously openend https version of the site by habit, and firefox auto-completed it this time.
08:57:28 <barlas> https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
08:58:07 <barlas> python client.py checkout             # Retrieve the mozilla source code
08:58:14 <barlas> This is xulrunner?
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09:00:04 <barlas> It takes way too long to complete.
09:00:49 <flo> barlas: it's the mozilla plateform, yes. And yes, it takes a while
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09:02:20 <barlas> flo: This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_application_framework ?
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09:02:48 <flo> barlas: actually it's Firefox's source code that we checkout
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09:05:49 <flo> I don't understand why users of StatusNet seem to believe that *we* *have to* support that network. If it's as easy as they say it is, why don't they offer a patch?
09:07:34 <barlas> Doesn't statusnet has same API as twitter?
09:07:49 <barlas> At least it used to have that once upon a time, haven't checked it in a while
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09:10:23 <flo> barlas: yes, it's "the same API", or so they say
09:10:39 <flo> barlas: but Twitter's API keeps evolving, so I can't believe it's the same at any point in time ;).
09:10:57 <flo> so each time we add something for twitter we would have to test for StatusNet too
09:11:09 <flo> (ie it's a lot more work than what these people say)
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09:15:59 <flo> aleth: btw, I'm glad to see you are tackling the performance issues of the nicklist! :)
09:16:09 <flo> aleth: I'll probably want to review that patch too
09:16:28 <aleth> flo: well, since you had profiled it... it was clear there were some obvious things to change
09:17:39 <flo> aleth: even without profiling, I already knew DOM calls where slow and we shouldn't use them for the binary search of the insertion position
09:18:02 <flo> *were
09:18:24 <aleth> Yes, I was a bit surprised seeing that inside the search loop
09:19:41 <flo> have you tested how much your patch speeds up the #ubuntu list?
09:20:03 <aleth> This machine is a bit too fast, but I'd say "noticeably"
09:20:22 <flo> s/tested/measured/
09:20:47 <flo> I meant with a let before = Date.now(); ... dump(Date.now() - before)
09:20:49 <aleth> No, I didn't bother to time it
09:21:19 <aleth> I had always assumed (without looking, which is bad) that the only way to speed up the nicklist would be to do something super complicated ;)
09:22:30 <flo> aleth: I had always assumed that to make it responsive (ie never block longer than 100ms) we would have to make it asynchronous
09:22:31 <aleth> It's not totally trivial to time it anyway because for a large channel the nicks arrive in batches.
09:22:45 <flo> but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make it block half the time it blocks now :)
09:22:52 <aleth> flo: me too
09:23:05 <aleth> hence "low-hanging fruit" ;)
09:24:10 <flo> yeah :)
09:29:42 <flo> aleth: it confuses me that you added and then removed one minute later a dependency between bug 276 and bug 1686
09:29:46 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=276 min, --, ---, nobody, NEW, Nicklist painfully slow
09:29:47 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1686 nor, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Nicklist speedup: low-hanging fruit
09:30:11 <aleth> I added the dependency based on the bug title, then removed it again based on looking inside ;)
09:31:06 <flo> the first paragraph of the description says "When joining a chat room with thousands of participants (for instance, #ubuntu
09:31:06 <flo> on irc.freenode.net) the application is frozen for about a minute!" ;)
09:31:28 <flo> that seems to be what you are doing
09:31:49 <flo> the <tree> suggestion there is WONTFIX I think. I'm afraid it restricts too much extensibility.
09:32:14 <aleth> Yes, but the WIP is more ambitious, and the code and suggested solution is unrelated to small improvements to the existing code, as we just discussed.
09:33:04 <flo> the WIP is the <tree> solution that's wontfix
09:33:22 <flo> and you are just attacking the same issue, with another approach that now makes more sense
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09:33:46 <aleth> OK, then it should be WONTFIX like you said.
09:34:04 <aleth> (or a dupe, for the bug as a whole)
09:34:17 <flo> only if you retitle it "show the nicklist in a tree" :)
09:34:29 <flo> yeah, dupe if you want
09:34:50 <flo> although I'm not sure you are really fixing it (is it going to be always less than 100ms after your fix?)
09:35:13 <flo> seems you are more making things move in the right direction than fully fixing it :)
09:35:23 <aleth> Sure.
09:35:39 <aleth> It's impossible to guarantee a certain performance just by speeding things up a bit
09:35:43 * flo should stop bikeshedding on bugzilla details
09:36:19 <flo> aleth: btw, I'm thinking that we could quite easily display that list async without the user noticing anything
09:37:14 <flo> aleth: we can display as many items as needed to fill the part of the list that's visible, and then set the height on the listbox to item height * number of items. That should give the correct appearance to the scrollbar
09:37:35 <flo> and we don't even have to display the rest with setTimeouts, we can do it lazily when the user scrolls :)
09:37:57 * flo isn't sure if that would be smooth or not
09:38:25 <flo> but displaying 30 nicks shouldn't take a long time, so it's possible we could do it without delaying the scroll :)
09:38:33 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1886 on bug 1686.
09:38:34 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1887 on bug 1686.
09:38:36 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1686 nor, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Nicklist speedup: low-hanging fruit
09:38:49 <aleth> flo: Right, isn't that the sort of solution we had envisaged before?
09:39:20 <aleth> I would still consider that more complicated in the sense of "more work", which is why nobody has done it ;)
09:39:25 <flo> aleth: before I thought we would do something similar to what we do when restoring a conv on hold, ie display nicks until we have spent 100ms, and then continue with executeSoon calls
09:40:24 <flo> and that solution sucked, because handling nicks that are added/removed/renamed before we have displayed the whole list would be pretty difficult (if possible at all) to handle correctly
09:40:42 <flo> the most likely way to handle that would have been to just queue the request for adding them
09:40:48 <aleth> flo: Yes, and e.g. from IRC the nicks already arrive in batches, so it would have to intersect with that well
09:41:00 <flo> but with the solution I just proposed, if something that should be visible changes, we can handle it immediately
09:41:32 <flo> also, displaying only 30 nicks should suck less memory ;)
09:41:38 <flo> as we would create less DOM nodes
09:42:14 <flo> it seems we could get most the advantages of a tree (that displays just what's visible) but keep it extensible
09:42:39 <aleth> flo: My only worry with that solution is that I don't trust the listbox gecko code fully as it is.
09:43:55 <flo> aleth: as long as the scroll events are reliably (I'm not 100% sure they are), it should work fine I think
09:44:30 <flo> but yeah, I'm not saying we should do that right now, and it's indeed more complicated. Just something to do during one rainy day :)
09:45:11 <flo> (and anyway, the array with the nicknames in the correct positions that you are adding with your patch would be required for such a solution, so we aren't duplicating work)
09:45:34 <flo> it's probably even seen that array in the patch that made me think about this
09:45:39 <aleth> It should fix that annoying listitems-disappearing-from-the-list bug too ;)
09:45:59 <aleth> I think someone (Mook? Mic?) had suggested that approach before
09:47:43 <flo> I think faking the scrollbar has already been suggested, yes
09:47:59 <flo> I remember it for the message area though :) (infinite scroll! :))
09:48:35 <aleth> Yeah, that's tougher as one might have to wait for disk i/o
09:49:42 <flo> if we can fake the scrollbar AND at message at the top of the conv, we can restore a conv from hold immediately (just show the most recent messages).
09:49:55 <flo> but it would be difficult to know the height of messages
09:50:13 <flo> some messages may contain multiple lines of text, some messages may be grouped together, ...
09:50:42 <flo> so what we display on the scrollbar would only be based on a heuristic :-/
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09:51:30 <aleth> The meaning of the scrollbar is a bit tricky when one has infinite scroll anyway
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09:57:45 * flo goes back to the "Braderie de Lille" (spent 12 hours there yesterday, walked for 11 hours, was completely exhausted when getting home)
09:58:23 <aleth> It sounded huge from your description yesterday...
09:58:34 <aleth> Looking for some spare AMI parts? ;)
10:00:49 <flo> aleth: no, that's too heavy for my backpack.
10:01:15 <flo> aleth: but old documentation, AMIs at small scales, tools, ...
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10:03:41 <aleth> well, good luck!
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10:04:51 <flo> thanks
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10:14:11 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1887 on bug 1686.
10:14:13 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1686 nor, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Nicklist speedup: low-hanging fruit
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10:17:55 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1888 on bug 1686.
10:17:57 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1686 nor, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Nicklist speedup: low-hanging fruit
10:18:35 <barlas> Hmm... after complling for ages, make -f client.mk build failed
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10:19:17 <barlas> It failed in obj-instantbird/purple/libpurple/protocols/gg'
10:19:56 <barlas> make[6]: *** [buddylist.o] Error 1
10:19:57 <barlas> make[6]: *** Waiting for unfinished jobs....
10:19:58 <barlas> make[6]: *** [confer.o] Error 1
10:20:00 <barlas> /stuff/development/instantbird/purple/libpurple/protocols/gg/gg.c: In function ‘ggp_login’:
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12:37:40 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com requested review from florian@instantbird .org for attachment 1888 on bug 1686.
12:37:42 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1686 nor, --, ---, nobody, ASSI, Nicklist speedup: low-hanging fruit
12:38:45 <clokep> barlas: We would need a longer log than that.
12:42:12 <clokep> flo: I agree with the StatusNet stuff. If it works so easily, someone should just create a patch for it.
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13:03:00 <instantbot> clokep@gmail.com denied review for attachment 1883 on bug 1683.
13:03:03 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1683 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Restore participants' active status if still appropriate after a reconnect
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13:28:14 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1889 on bug 1683.
13:28:16 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1683 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Restore participants' active status if still appropriate after a reconnect
13:29:04 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1889 on bug 1683.
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13:31:51 <Scarlet79Rose> Hi all. 
13:32:07 <Scarlet79Rose> I am wodnering about instant bird. How do you add people using it?
13:32:29 <aleth> Scarlet79Rose: File -> Add Buddy
13:32:59 <Scarlet79Rose> Okay... But what if someone adds you? Sometiems the alert doesn't come up?
13:33:41 <aleth> Which protocol is this?
13:34:13 <Scarlet79Rose> If someone adds me on msn.. And I have my msn on instant bird. I tried adding one of my other accounts, but the alert never came up :)
13:34:34 <aleth> Right, I think there may be a problem with this for msn.
13:34:35 <aleth> bug 1553
13:34:38 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1553 nor, --, ---, nobody, UNCO, Instantbird doesn't notify you when a new contact adds you on msn
13:34:42 <aleth> Sorry!
13:34:43 <Scarlet79Rose> Because I am totally blind and was trying to add a nother friend before but was not able to 
13:35:03 <Scarlet79Rose> ah ok thanks
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13:35:25 <aleth> Ah, wait... if you are blind maybe it was an accessibility issue rather than that bug :/
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13:44:24 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1890 on bug 1683.
13:44:26 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1683 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Restore participants' active status if still appropriate after a reconnect
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13:54:35 <igorko> hi
13:54:43 <igorko> anyone with SPARC machine here?
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18:01:40 <mib_id2ae7> Hi. I can't type /list command in IRC on Instantbird. What I must Do? Thank You.
18:03:02 <-- mib_id2ae7 has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
18:03:04 <aleth> mib_id2ae7: /list is not supported yet, sorry.
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20:35:40 <flo> are there plans to support /list?
20:35:51 <flo> (aleth replied "not yet" to the /list question)
20:36:36 <flo> aleth: btw, you were right, I bought some (small) AMI parts today :-]
20:51:10 <aleth> flo: I think clokep had plans to incorporate it in the new tab page
20:51:29 <aleth> flo: clearly the flea market that has /everything/ :)
20:55:24 <flo> let's see if the lcd screen I bought works
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20:58:25 <flo> it does!
20:58:29 <flo> and I don't see any obviously dead pixel
20:59:20 <flo> I've always wanted to have a small 15" lcd screen to put on a server. Modern larger screens are nicer to use, but to have them on a server and turn on once or twice a year, it's a waste of space
20:59:41 <flo> another nice thing with a 15" lcd screen is that it can easily fit in a backpack ;)
21:00:21 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm cancelled review?(clokep@gmail.com) for attachment 1890 on bug 1683.
21:00:22 <instantbot> aletheia2@fastmail.fm requested review from clokep@gmail.com for attachment 1891 on bug 1683.
21:00:24 <instantbot> Bug https://bugzilla.instantbird.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1683 enh, --, ---, aletheia2, ASSI, Restore participants' active status if still appropriate after a reconnect
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21:01:23 <aleth> ooh I think my parents still have one of those. good find if it didn't have dead pixels!
21:02:15 <flo> it's this one: http://www.amazon.com/Dell-E151FP-Inch-Panel-Monitor/dp/B001I62RW4
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21:02:45 <flo> I paid it 4 euros (~ $5)
21:02:56 <aleth> bargain!
21:04:05 <flo> the guy wanted 5euros at first, but I had to negotiate the price ;)
21:04:22 <aleth> yeah, 5 eur is clearly pushing it ;)
21:05:00 <flo> and then I had to negotiate again, to convince him that no, I didn't want to take the computer (that seemed in perfect shape, but was a P4, so too old to be useful, and impossible to fit in my backpack) for another 4 euros
21:05:22 <aleth> the backpack makes a good excuse...
21:06:03 <flo> I'm not sure I'll ever use the screen
21:06:28 <flo> but my plan for it is to put it on the Mac mini of the Instantbird build farm; once I finally decide to buy it.
21:06:45 <flo> 900euros for the computer, 4 for the screen :-D.
21:07:06 <aleth> :D unless you find a bargain for the mini too
21:07:19 <aleth> (a bit more difficult)
21:07:55 <flo> aleth: yeah, I hesitate between taking a used one (but it has to be at least a Core2duo to run the modern 64 bit version of the OS) or a brand new one.
21:08:36 <aleth> Maybe you can find some other use for it while it is not building... that could decide one way or the other
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21:08:59 <flo> I would prefer avoiding that
21:09:20 <flo> I would like us to stop using personal hardware/servers for Instantbird's infrastructure
21:09:44 <flo> it's impossible to give login credentials to other people here if the hard disk is full of personal data
21:09:58 <aleth> right...
21:10:04 <flo> and at some point I would like to stop being the only one able to take care of the Mac slave
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21:31:02 <Kaishi> flo, if you don't mind waiting a few weeks, I have a VM host I run in my home, and I could bring up a set of Windows, Mac, and Ubuntu VMs, if that would be helpful
21:31:08 <Kaishi> and then just give remote access or something
21:31:13 <Kaishi> we could discuss it
21:31:47 <Kaishi> those VMs would be 100% dedicated to instantbird, no personal data would be on them
21:34:52 <flo> Kaishi: Mac doesn't run well in VMs
21:35:03 <Kaishi> it runs fine in virtualbox
21:35:05 <flo> Kaishi: we use VMs for Windows and Linux :)
21:35:19 <Kaishi> which isn't my primary VM platform but it would be sufficient to build
21:35:27 <Kaishi> mmkay
21:35:31 <Kaishi> just tossing out ideas
21:36:55 <flo> Kaishi: the last time I tried OS X in a VM, it wasn't reliable enough to make a build slave, and we decided to buy a real mac
21:37:01 <flo> that was a few years ago though :)
21:38:55 <flo> the 2 major issues were that it was horribly slow, and that they clock was crazy (crazy enough that ntpd couldn't keep the date and hour approximatively correct)
21:39:22 <flo> it's especially disk I/O that was horribly slow
21:56:49 <flo> Good night
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23:09:06 <clokep_wp7> flo: I've been tjinking of gwtting the Mac builder...but we can talk. :-S
23:09:11 <clokep_wp7> thinking
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